Open world PvP Zone

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Exactly, that's why I argue that the skill pruning and forced 9 button standard was unnecessary. But a lot of players just won't hear otherwise now :/

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We should go to 9 buttons for PvE as well. Because there are too many buttons.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

We should go to 9 buttons for PvE as well. Because there are too many buttons.

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There's also toxic players. Better restrict chat too.

I'm not against a open world PVP zone, but maybe you should leave casual stuff out of it. Put your own original ideas. Cuz reading this it seems most people use fates and beastribe as an excuse and toxic players. Toxic players probably wouldn't go away. But at least casual people can finish their lore filled beastribes, or their ixion type fate with an reward at the end.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

I'm not against a open world PVP zone, but maybe you should leave casual stuff out of it. Put your own original ideas. Cuz reading this it seems most people use fates and beastribe as an excuse and toxic players. Toxic players probably wouldn't go away. But at least casual people can finish their lore filled beastribes, or their ixion type fate with an reward at the end.

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Why couldn't casuals participate? That was the whole reason we have 9 buttons in PvP. The logic is falling apart saying that casuals couldn't participate.

Oh I think they mean "leave casual content out of an open world PvP zone", which I'd say is fair. That way no one feels like they HAVE to go in lest they miss something, and those who would engage in ganking or other activities like that couldn't prey upon people who aren't willing to deal with said possibility.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Oh I think they mean "leave casual content out of an open world PvP zone", which I'd say is fair. That way no one feels like they HAVE to go in lest they miss something, and those who would engage in ganking or other activities like that couldn't prey upon people who aren't willing to deal with said possibility.

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I think timed events like Fates could be relevant though. It keeps people engaged in the zone or getting to keep it for their GC. If your GC holds the resource you get a bonus of more GC seals. It wouldn't be go kill XYZ NPC. It would be hold the node for X time or whoever holds it by the end of it. Think of a Node in Seize but once you capture it, you hold it for a few hours. I don't think the OP meant an Ixion like fate but more of a resource that is captured and is on a timer like a fate.

We could call it a P.A.T.E.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Oh I think they mean "leave casual content out of an open world PvP zone", which I'd say is fair. That way no one feels like they HAVE to go in lest they miss something, and those who would engage in ganking or other activities like that couldn't prey upon people who aren't willing to deal with said possibility.

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This this this is all I am saying. Leave the casual content like Beast Tribe and fates out of this open world PVP zone and I’m all for it. So that people who just want to do the fates and Beast Tribe content aren’t just ganker bait.

PvP-centric F.A.T.E.s in an owpvp area would be great!

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

PvP-centric F.A.T.E.s in an owpvp area would be great!

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I approve. If they were PVP-centric only, I wouldn’t feel like I was locked out of anything.

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Originally Posted by Kisagami

I approve. If they were PVP-centric only, I wouldn’t feel like I was locked out of anything.

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This is what the OP was trying to communicate.

Best solution imo would be:

1) PvP flag to toggle on/off (off by default, of course). If on, you can attack/be attacked by anyone with the flag on.

2) Request duel, already implemented in WD.

3) Joining fractions. Neutral players can't be attacked. And this could still have the PvP flag to boot. So even if your in a fraction you could still choose not to PvP.

The only "good" counter-argument for optional open world PvP I've heard is that people will harass you if you never do it. Ffs, everyone on the internet gets harassed, why even pay people that harass you any attention? The times I get harassed I simply ignore it. I could not care less about these kind of people and neither should you. Block/blacklist etc if it gets too annoying.

Also, no anarchy open-world PvP. That, imo, just sucks. Perhaps a dedicated zone for it, but not as a standard.

The problem with this suggestion is that you're asking for a zone. An entire zone. One pvp zone is one too many. The resources that it would take to build an entirely new zone just for pvp are resources that I'd rather see go to something else. Is that a selfish thing to say? Maybe, but a pvp zone is a big enough deal that it'd have to be THE big feature for a patch, kind of like how the potd was the big new thing a while ago and eureka's going to be the big thing in 4.2. That patch would end up being pretty dry for everyone who doesn't care for pvp.

If I'm being honest, I think too many resources are being spent on pvp in this game as it is. There are other games that are much better suited to it, it's really not something that needs to be dragged into this one.

So then, by that same bad logic, if Eureka's the big thing of 4.2, then if you've never enjoyed relic content, 4.2's going to be a dry experience, right? Gold Saucer's a waste if you hate minigames. I don't like Hunts or FATES. . . so those are a waste of resources too right?

I'm pretty tired of this awful misconception being thrown around. Tuesday marks the first new mode for PvP in over a year. If we want to go by category, this is the first new type of PvP in this game since 2.3. PvE content has had regular, various typese of updates during all that time. Do not, and I can't stress this enough, Do NOT even try to claim PvP takes away from anything in this game. What little is there goes lengthy stretches without updates or needed changes, or even word from devs regarding it. If they did that with PvE content, even within one single patch cycle, players would riot.

So, bluntly, what you think regarding allocation of resources is quite wrong, and you only need to look beyond what you think and see how things really are. There are other games that do plenty of things better than XIV does, but the answer isn't to tell people to just go play those games. That kind of thinking is how you kill a community, and by effect, kill a game.

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Originally Posted by HelSpites

If I'm being honest, I think too many resources are being spent on pvp in this game as it is.

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Is the pve crowd really this starved for new content now?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So then, by that same bad logic, if Eureka's the big thing of 4.2, then if you've never enjoyed relic content, 4.2's going to be a dry experience, right? Gold Saucer's a waste if you hate minigames. I don't like Hunts or FATES. . . so those are a waste of resources too right?

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I'm not sure why you're phrasing this as if it's a thing I'd disagree with. Yes, you're right. If you're someone that doesn't enjoy working on relics and they're not a thing you ever plan on doing, then 4.2 isn't going to be a good time, and sure it'd be fair to say that it's a waste of resources. Same applies to the gold saucer and hunts. If you don't like the thing, then certainly from your perspective it's a waste and you're totally free to say as much, just like I have.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Do NOT even try to claim PvP takes away from anything in this game. What little is there goes lengthy stretches without updates or needed changes, or even word from devs regarding it. If they did that with PvE content, even within one single patch cycle, players would riot.

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Nope. Pvp does take resources away from other content. I said and I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it because any time anyone on the dev team works on pvp, that's work that could have been put into something else. See, here's the thing, I don't think pvp should have been in the game to begin with. It certainly wasn't in during ARR's launch and it should have stayed that way. The fact that it's in, and that it keeps getting updates and that some of the best looking gear sets are locked behind it has always been a point of iritation for me. And yes, if the devs treated pve the way they do pvp, players would throw a fit. I agree. They should. Pve is the core of this game, not the festering tumor that pvp is.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So, bluntly, what you think regarding allocation of resources is quite wrong, and you only need to look beyond what you think and see how things really are. There are other games that do plenty of things better than XIV does, but the answer isn't to tell people to just go play those games. That kind of thinking is how you kill a community, and by effect, kill a game.

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Look man, I played BDO for a while. I thought it's combat system was fun and its open world was a good time, but the pve side of that game is absolutely atrocious. All there is to do at end game is fight over the same few grind spots with other, probably better geared players who will inevitbally call in their gank squad to murder you for daring to breathe the same air as them. You know what though? At no point did I ever think to go into BDO's forum and say “Hey, you know what this game needs? Instanced dungeons!” Because as much as I would like that, that's pretty clearly not the game's focus, and I'm positive the vast majority of players there would see instanced dungeons as a massive waste of resources.

As much as I am normally approving of adding more options and more comments - I'm going to shoot this one down with a couple of comments that is going to sort of tip the hand of SE's perspective here.

1. Open World PvP has no objective.

2. PvP has no individual Balancing.

This is critically important.
If there is no objective, there can be no team-based balancing. If there is no team based balancing, all of their team-based gameplay they have now goes out the window. It's effectively asking Square Enix to forego their entire motif for the sake of one mode and once again completely overhauling PvP Skills to focus on individual balancing. It's not a matter of they can or should, they won't. That mode is contrary to their standard of rewarding teamplay and their attempts fostering a positive community as a result.

What you're left with, is a severely disproportionate game that relies specifically on exploiting individual or group weaknesses. If one class is in meta and the others are out, those classes have a horrid time playing in Open World.

Here's an example - Healers as they stand now.

You can see it in duels, Healers in most one on one situations can't be killed. This means if a healer engages a lone player out on the field, there's pretty much zero chance of losing. They can harass that PvP Player continually. That situation is instantly unfun for the soloist out there.

The natural escalation of that is to gank the healer, which then instantly becomes unfun for the healer, which then devolves the Open World PvP into roaming gank-squads that prey upon any individual or isolated person. Or play in groups that best exploit any disparity in individual or group play balance for the sake of winning the most often. This would make the Red Headed Stepchild (Or perhaps Red Hatted in this case? >.>) jobs even more ostracized they are now.

At least in objective based play with team based balancing, these jobs still fulfill their roles and can secure wins even against Meta picks at fair rates.

These are all conclusions based off of SE's adjustments and content habits across the board. Untill SE overturns their core tenants of gameplay for FFXIV, the discussion of can or should is irrelevant - they wont. And from my perspective, they seem too heavily invested in their policies to push away from them at this rate.

I would love an open pvp zone in ffxiv but the average ffxiv player is so weak, if you just stare at him he reports you for harassment, what for a pvp zone then? "there will be griefing" "ugh you hurt my kokoro" "he attacked me i report you" "4v1 not fair" "spawnkilling me i report for different playstyle" blablabla.

Said this, I would like an open world pvp zone, ZONE.

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Originally Posted by HelSpites

I don't think pvp should have been in the game to begin with.

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Now that you've said the one thing that really made any sense there, what are you even doing in this section of the forums then? You may not think it should be there, but enough people and SE thought otherwise. And yet, it impacts your gameplay experience in no way at all.

Also, you act as if SE's so small they can't have devs work on multiple things at once? If that were the case, every update to anything but MSQ diverts resources from the game's "main" content. Tell me how Rival Wings, being added halfway through this patch, somehow held back or diverted from Rabanastre? Or Ultimate Coil? Tell me how it affected Shirogane or Shinryu Ex? You know, content that made it in BEFORE it. Tell me how it affected the "Perform" feature and what it had to do with the lag issues they openly declared it was being delayed for? Tell me how almost half a year of NOT dealing with the issues of botting and exploiting in Frontlines despite massive amounts of reports is impacting the timing of 4.2? Be sure to bring something factual, and not just "I feel like. . ."

Open World PvP zone will not work here for two reasons:

#1 - PvP Zone without any objective or rewards will become a desert after a week or two.

#2 - And if they put objective/rewards there, like Glamour/pets/mounts and/or good Gear, then most people will complain that's too much stress/pain to get those rewards/gear.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

I would love an open pvp zone in ffxiv but the average ffxiv player is so weak, if you just stare at him he reports you for harassment, what for a pvp zone then? "there will be griefing" "ugh you hurt my kokoro" "he attacked me i report you" "4v1 not fair" "spawnkilling me i report for different playstyle" blablabla.

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Basically, this is #2 example ^
PvP zone will put a lot of pressure/stress on casual players. (aka big chunk of a playerbase)

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

PvP zone will put a lot of pressure/stress on casual players. (aka big chunk of a playerbase)

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it is also true that if they do not want to get stressed they can just not enter in such zone, what's everyone problem if some people like killin others ingame, all those that enter in an an open pvp zone are responsibles for their ingame life and should not complain if they get kkilled over and over.

Let's use the Dueling Circle for example, since that's as open world as it gets for PvP currently. What kind of pressure or stress does it cause casual players by just being there?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Now that you've said the one thing that really made any sense there, what are you even doing in this section of the forums then?

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Was my post unclear? Do I need to clarify something? What part of my post didn't make sense? Anyways, I was waiting for a queue so I hopped around the forums. Before this I was looking at the tank section and before that, the general discussion section.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Also, you act as if SE's so small they can't have devs work on multiple things at once?... Tell me how Rival Wings, being added halfway through this patch, somehow held back or diverted from Rabanastre? Or Ultimate Coil?..."

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I'd like to think my other posts would make my answer to this question pretty obvious, but, well, I don't care how many people they have. I'm sure SE has pleanty of people working on FF14, but every person working on anything pvp-related is someone that could be working on something else.

I have to say, I'm not sure what kind of answer you were expecting here. What, do you think I'm going to look through the game's credits to find every person that worked on the pvp team and say “Well, this 3d modeler could have built a piece of a dungeon's environment instead of working on those towers in rival wings.”

Honestly, I just wish they’d add more frontline zones. Been actually enjoying that. I’m going for the Makai outfits and titles. We already have a place we can hang out at and duel in between fights.

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Originally Posted by HelSpites

Was my post unclear? Do I need to clarify something? What part of my post didn't make sense? Anyways, I was waiting for a queue so I hopped around the forums. Before this I was looking at the tank section and before that, the general discussion section.



I'd like to think my other posts would make my answer to this question pretty obvious, but, well, I don't care how many people they have. I'm sure SE has pleanty of people working on FF14, but every person working on anything pvp-related is someone that could be working on something else.

I have to say, I'm not sure what kind of answer you were expecting here. What, do you think I'm going to look through the game's credits to find every person that worked on the pvp team and say “Well, this 3d modeler could have built a piece of a dungeon's environment instead of working on those towers in rival wings.”

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Oh your bias was clear and present from the first post. There's little else to say.

P.S. you didn't answer my questions. But it's okay. In not doing so, I got all the answer I need.

"The resources that it would take to build an entirely new zone just for pvp are resources that I'd rather see go to something else."
Thank god your not in the developer team, with this kind of logic nothing new/good PvX things would come out of this game. lol

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Originally Posted by Akor

"The resources that it would take to build an entirely new zone just for pvp are resources that I'd rather see go to something else."
Thank god your not in the developer team, with this kind of logic nothing new/good PvX things would come out of this game. lol

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I was trying to be nice and not say that, lol.

Let's also consider the fact that Cartenau - The Borderland Ruins (Secure, Slaughter when it existed) - was reused for both the level 60 SMN quest and for part of the MSQ in 3.5. . .I can't imagine just how many resources were used in repurposing an old PvP map for MSQ and a job quest! Whew! No wonder they needed a vacation between 4.0 and 4.1!

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

PvP zone will put a lot of pressure/stress on casual players. (aka big chunk of a playerbase)

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We have a pvp zone, I've never seen anyone complain about Wolves Den. It is however limited to dueling, and only 2-3 matches for player-based tournaments, plus making sure no one else using it. This is one of the basic things the game is lacking, to let players make their own content like every game. Player tournaments are one of them.

The point of the open world is to make it big enough for different types and different organizers without 'booking' the entire place. There is no pressure for casual players, I'm sure not everyone plays every single events on their server. There are player-created contents if your server is creative enough. Open world hide and seek, theatres on housing, those just few I've seen being held. PvP is no different.

I still feel like the dueling request system shouldn't be limited to one spot. Especially given all the scenic locales in game.

But heavens forbid 2 players agree to face each other in combat via request in a manner that involves no one else anywhere other than the WDP, right?

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Originally Posted by Kisagami

Honestly, I just wish they’d add more frontline zones. Been actually enjoying that. I’m going for the Makai outfits and titles. We already have a place we can hang out at and duel in between fights.

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It would be a bad decision to add more new ones, when the others frontlines are dead. (Hey, Seal Rock! o/ )
Previously, Yoshida said about placing them "in a rotation" so that players will be able to play all of them on a weekly basis.
But so far, nothing been done.

I really want to play Seal Rock

On open world pvp zone?
Pvp servers?
Even WoW is limiting it's open world pvp content because it simply ruins the experience for most of the players. Nothing fun in roaming alone and get gangbanged by a bunch of players, or simply being destroyed by a better equiped or higher level player. Or maybe wanting to do quests or events, and theres a whole legion of oposing faction dudes waiting for you to get some murder.

It looks exciting when you think that it will be balanced and that people will join it. It doesn't look so good when anybody of your faction wants to help or aren't interested in that kind of thing.

Leave pvp to pvp and PVE to PVE.

I will never understand westerners or Korean's obsession with pvp. x_x

Since some people brought up BnS, let me state that one of the problems with BnS is that part of the msq REQUIRES you to flag up for pvp. Not. Fun. At. All. I can easily see the devs for FFXIV forcing you to do some msqs in a pvp zone, or forcing you to join a faction like BnS (they do with GCs) or forcing you to do some gathering shit in a pvp zone and having you flagged in pvp while doing it, leaving you open to constant ganking. No thx. As long as pvp is optional like Wolves Den then its fine but as soon as its required for whatever pve content, it's like no and my sub will be cancelled.

#KeepPVPOutOfMyMMOs

Way to open with a stereotype. And I can answer that easily for you: You don't understand because you don't WANT to understand.

That said, we've literally said already:

• It would be a separate ZONE.
• Notification that you're entering said zone, if somehow you don't know.
• There would be no PvE content within at all.
• A status setting to signify that you do/do not wish to PvP.
• There would be no obligation or requirement to go for, or because of PvE-related reasons or content.

PvPers literally are going out of their way to make accommodations for players that would not be interested, and yet, there's almost no willingness to compromise. Literally, at this point, I have to ask what is wrong with some of the playerbase when a 90/10 PvE/PvP split still isn't good enough?

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

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I would understand how you feel if they forced us to PvE in PvP... wait... shatter... -___-


#KeepKeepPVPOutOfMyMMOsPeepsOutOfMyMMOs <-sorry, couldn't resist. xP

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Originally Posted by Demielle_Tournes

Leave pvp to pvp and PVE to PVE.

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I think you may have misunderstood my post. PvP servers would be PvP servers. Why would anyone who's not interested in PvP join them? Same with a PvP zone. That's why it is called a PvP zone.

Lol what do you mean by "forced"? Do you mean "SE makes the content available and I feel compelled to do it" or "This content must be cleared to unlock the rest of the story / new job". You are forced to complete msq, you are not forced to pvp.

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Originally Posted by Kisagami

Honestly, I just wish they’d add more frontline zones. Been actually enjoying that. I’m going for the Makai outfits and titles. We already have a place we can hang out at and duel in between fights.

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The dueling circle isn't the same. While I would wish for more game modes too it is nice to have a spot to go roam around that isn't a square box.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

I will never understand westerners or Korean's obsession with pvp. x_x

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I would say PvE lacks competition in a casual manner. If you aren't going for world first or fastest kill (which you have to dedicate blocks of time to) then there is nothing to show for. I can log into a PvP match and see how many of my teammates I can get to Battle High/Fever, how many deaths I reduce, or how much I heal for. These are tangible things I can see with in 30 minutes.

Everyone must have PTSD from previous MMO's because if you talk to most FFXI vets who participated in Ballista, loved it. If they didn't participate they didn't have any experience. They were in those same zones as again you had to register to be flagged for PvP.

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Originally Posted by Akor

"The resources that it would take to build an entirely new zone just for pvp are resources that I'd rather see go to something else."
Thank god your not in the developer team, with this kind of logic nothing new/good PvX things would come out of this game. lol

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Wait... So you apparently didn't read any of the previous posts. When was the last time you visited Isles of Umbra? There are soooooo many dead spots in this game where you visit once and then... dead. I bet you I can go camp out on Isles of Umbra and not see a soul for a week. If anything having optional PvP content in this area would revive a currently dead zone and take minimal resources to enable.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

1. Open World PvP has no objective.

2. PvP has no individual Balancing.

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You also haven't looked up Ballista or Wintergrasp. In WoW if you controlled Wintergrasp then it benefited your faction. Same with Ballista, you received bonuses for your hometown if you controlled the zone. That's the enticement to keep people engaged and wanting to participate. Imagine if flames controlled Isles of Umbra and you received an extra 3% durability lost boost, or 3% spirit bind boost. There are all sorts of tiny boosts that would engage people.

PvP balance went out the window with 4.0. It was far easier for a dps to take down a healer before 4.0 than post.

I'd have to ask if people wanting this have ever played open world PvP. I have, and it's generally not that fun because it boils down to big blobs camping entry/exit areas to trap single people with their pvp flags up. The actual big epic fights wind up being rare and few between, but you get a lot of people ganking others and playing it as safe as possible.

This wound up driving so many people out of those games that open world pvp is no longer the default choice for several MMOs. By zoning it here you wouldn't have that of course, but you'd still see it die due to job imbalances and camping. What would anyone do if a party of seven warriors and one healer camped the entrance to the zone?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'd have to ask if people wanting this have ever played open world PvP.

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Any other MMO I only play on a PvP server. WoW I was PvP centric and enjoyed the areas that were *problem* areas. It takes tact, strategy, and craftiness. Which this game completely lacks. Player elements are always changing and never stagnate. PvE is just figuring out a dance and once the dance is learned than you have to wait for them to develop a new one. Lets see an example of a PvE dance. Ok everyone spread, Ok everyone stack, Ok everyone hit the bubble, ok everyone focus the add, ok everyone spread, ok everyone stack, To the left, To the right, everybody clap your hands, Cha cha now yall...

Also you can design the area/zone sooo many ways to prevent camping/barring entry. You can have it be that when you load in, you have to register, or toggle flag.

Yes I have played on pvp servers. I enjoy pvp, when on a pvp server....I pvp, pve isn't my focus. Lots of titles still embrace pvp areas, Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars from the mmo genre. Yeah they are failed games, but pvp had very little to do with that. (In fact I would argue that pvp were their only redeeming qualities) Same with The Division and that zombie survival game. I don't see the harm in having a pvp zone, I mean no one uses Diadem anymore.

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Originally Posted by HelSpites

The resources that it would take to build an entirely new zone just for pvp are resources that I'd rather see go to something else.

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Alrighty then, where are your posts shooting down crafting suggestions? Where are your posts complaining about new housing items being added? Where are your posts complaining about the latest raid content? Or Gold Saucer? Newest Hunts and rewards? Updates on new minions and pet battles? PotD?

This game is chock-full of content. Chock. Full. Don't tell me you participate in every single piece of it except PvP. Complaining about resources being used on content you don't participate in is a waste of thread space and my time even thinking about a response to it. Sorry, I've been trying to make an effort to avoid combative vocabulary towards other people, but holy cow dude. FFXIV has no shortage of resources. Don't even worry about it and just stop responding here, please.

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Originally Posted by HelSpites

Is that a selfish thing to say?

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Yes

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I just don't understand the opposition to this idea. People really think adding a PvP zone is going to stop new dungeons from coming out? Do PvE'ers really think that a PvP zone is going to somehow reach across the instance line and gank their ass? Then spawn camp them at their home aether crystal? Kill and tea-bag their daily duty roulette dungeon party? Rofl-stomp you trying to gather an unspoiled node?

Apologies, feeling /rant-y today.