Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's really only noticeable as out of favor DPS classes.

Most PF's aren't going to lock out a potential 1/3rd of the tanks or healers. But gods help you if you're a Black Mage or Monk.

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Possibly. I have seen no proof of this being common either though, personally.

We are specifically talking about healers in this case though.

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Originally Posted by Miste

You have absolutely no proof that this will happen.

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It happened in 3.0. Specifically in 3.4, where statics pressured their healers to roll AST every single week until they either did so or left the static.
Likewise, Zurvan groups blocked WHM from joining because of the whole "skip soar" thing, and AST/SCH was a much better combo to achieve this. Luckily these were the last patches, or it would have went on even further.

Are you really going to deny all of this happening, and are you really trying to tell me it won't happen again even though all of the signs point to the same conclusion?


And again, I never said the exclusion was happening NOW but it WILL happen if things stay as they are.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I said they will be when people once again catch on to utility is better than excessive healing.

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People don't need to catch onto this, it has been very obvious from the start of 3.x. The issue, as literally everyone has said now, is that during 3.4 AST got buffed to levels where they outclassed WHM in every aspect, and brought utility on top of that. This is no longer the case, WHM has its own contributions to a party now at the lack of said utility.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Also to all the people saying WHM is fine because it's used in progression. Progression for most people lasts a month.

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I can't speak for everyone, but I highlighted that WHM shines in progression, not that it's the only area of raiding that they'll be included in. In fact, it's been made quite clear that the only groups which won't take a WHM are speed running groups, which also alienate all casters, MNK, SAM etc etc.

Speed runners are a minority within a minority. The majority of groups that do their weeklies will not have any real reason to change their comps around, unless they're doing it for the fun of it.

If you can't see what WHM can bring to a party, move on.

Edit: And no, we won't be getting a repeat of 3.4. Mainly because there is currently no need for them to buff any healer to God tier. You should remember that WHM was doing fine for the majority of 3.x, while it still had no utility. It only struggled in 3.4 cause the devs derped and decided to make AST do everything better and bring more to the table.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

where statics pressured their healers to roll AST every single week until they either did so or left the static.

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Okay let's try this again.

Your words alone does not prove that WHM was being ostracized by the majority of groups.

Where is your proof of this happening on a large scale? Are you just speaking of your own personal experience? If so then do you know anyone else who had the same thing happen to them? Got any screenshots of groups blocking out WHM after 3.4? I actually have screenshots I posted in another thread of at SB launch showing groups accepting all healers equally for statics and AST even still had their buffed balance card back then.

Here is the post if you want to see it:

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Originally Posted by Miste

http://i.imgur.com/AojR5pQ.png?1

This one hosted by a WHM so they wanted either SCH or AST to not stack another WHM.
http://i.imgur.com/ZGEp89d.png

http://i.imgur.com/2ZOXwf3.png?1


^ Seems like all healers are sought after and wanted.

Keep in mind also these PFs were all BEFORE the patch notes from last night revealing AST balance nerfs. They were screenshotted last week.

I don't get why people seem to think that WHM or SCH are not wanted. Those screenshots are only taken just in one evening also within 10-20 mins of checking PFs here and there, plenty more if I kept checking.

Sure some groups might block one of the healers out just like some groups might refuse to take a specific DPS for reasons. It is their group so they can make the decision, but even so obviously there are MANY other groups to choose from if one group gives you crap for just not being an AST.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Likewise, Zurvan groups blocked WHM from joining because of the whole "skip soar" thing, and AST/SCH was a much better combo to achieve this. Luckily these were the last patches, or it would have went on even further.

Are you really going to deny all of this happening, and are you really trying to tell me it won't happen again even though all of the signs point to the same conclusion?
And again, I never said the exclusion was happening NOW but it WILL happen if things stay as they are.

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I am not denying it per say. I am asking you to prove what you are claiming. Unless you can prove it with facts and evidence then your claims mean nothing and it is simply your own personal experience or opinion and not actually fact that WHMs were kicked or forced into playing AST by the majority of groups.

Also it took me over 100 runs of Zurvan to get my primal bird drop from him and finally win the roll. I farmed him....ON WHM. I was NEVER blocked out of a group for being a WHM unless there was already another WHM already in the group and they didn't want to stack same healer. This goes against what you are claiming. Over 100 runs and never ran into this WHM ostracizing that you claim is so common.

If what you are claiming was true and such a widespread blocking of WHMs from groups then why did I see none of it? Maybe I was just lucky? I don't know. That is why I am asking you for proof because without it then you are just blowing smoke.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Your words alone does not prove that WHM was being ostracized by the majority of groups.

Where is your proof of this happening on a large scale?

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I think I know what you're saying here. You're adding in the word "majority" and promptly ignoring the fact that such an event did happen. Because it didn't happen to nearly everyone, it doesn't deserve to be addressed, is more or less what you're saying.

I don't have no proof, no. At the time I didn't think it was worth a screenshot. But everyone who played a healer knows how lacking and undesirable WHM was in that patch. And for every other normal Zurvan farm, there's was the "skip soar or disband" groups that blocked WHM for AST/SCH.
As for statics, if you were in one at the time, there were tons of people that were pressured into going AST for the raid.

But I suppose whatever I say now you can just pretend hasn't happened since I didn't capture a screenshot, so I'll just stop here.
I just really hope SE knows they're treading the same exact path with WHM in 3.0 and has something planned.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I just really hope SE knows they're treading the same exact path with WHM in 3.0 and has something planned.

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They really aren't.

3.4's WHM was forever fighting a losing battle against MP efficiency whilst also bring massively outgunned on the utility front, it also had the double whammy of not only being seen as outright inferior to Diu-AST, but indirectly suffering because Noct-AST was viewed as subpar as well, not only did Diu-AST+SCH bring the most utility, it was the most self sufficient and safest healer comp to boot.

Compare that to what we have now.

WHM has by far the strongest MP self sufficiency of all 3 healers now meaning it's free to overheal and play cautiously to it's heart's content.
It suffered the least from the dot merger and thus has solid efficient DPS for days if needed. Gone are the days of Bang Bang OOM.
It's by far the most streamlined healer of the 3 IMHO with very little clunky fluff or quirky cooldowns to worry about. Perfect for progression time when you want to be focusing on learning, not your cooldowns.

Is it the min maxiest healer? Of course not. But unlike 3.4's WHM, it actually has very clear strengths and above all, a purpose now.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I think I know what you're saying here. You're adding in the word "majority" and promptly ignoring the fact that such an event did happen. Because it didn't happen to nearly everyone, it doesn't deserve to be addressed, is more or less what you're saying.

I don't have no proof, no. At the time I didn't think it was worth a screenshot. But everyone who played a healer knows how lacking and undesirable WHM was in that patch. And for every other normal Zurvan farm, there's was the "skip soar or disband" groups that blocked WHM for AST/SCH.
As for statics, if you were in one at the time, there were tons of people that were pressured into going AST for the raid.

But I suppose whatever I say now you can just pretend hasn't happened since I didn't capture a screenshot, so I'll just stop here.
I just really hope SE knows they're treading the same exact path with WHM in 3.0 and has something planned.

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That's fine if you have no proof but then you are simply doomsaying and making claims based only on your own personal experience and have no facts to back it up. I mean you keep saying things like "everyone who played healer knows" yeah... I am a healer too you know and what I was telling you was my experience is the total opposite of yours which could hint that it was not as serious of a problem as you are trying to claim it was or is.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM will immediately be ejected from all parties.

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I never said healer balance should not be addressed just because groups still take WHM, but you are making claims about WHM being ostracized at a level where it would be extremely hard or impossible to play WHM even if you wanted to.


As for how my experience is opposite of yours....

When 3.0 hit I immediately leveled AST and wanted to main it for Gordias (I had mained WHM from 1.0-3.0 thus far). AST was so underpowered at 3.0 that my static forced me to switch back to WHM.

So eventually I left that static because even after some buffs to AST that static likely would have still not let me main AST and I knew I loved AST. After Midas was released some people still refused to take me as an AST since I guess the stigma from the bad launch of it was still there and unlike WHM I did actually personally see groups purposefully blocking PF slots to WHM/SCH only, but I eventually found a group that would take me.

By the time Creator at 3.4 rolled around AST, in my experience, seemed to finally be accepted as much as SCH and WHM and, yes, I understand how WHM toolkit was lacking after the balance buff, and I agree with you since I played WHM too, BUT the BIG BUT here is that even if they were lacking toolkit wise groups still took my WHM and I never saw anyone block WHMs except for speedkill groups. I had an alt that I joined pug groups or statics missing a healer for the week and I played on WHM and no one ever blocked me out or told me to switch even though my alt had AST leveled as well.

Zurvan? Same thing I played WHM just fine no issues getting groups to farm my bird. Maybe there were some groups who did what you said to skip soar, but there were still many more groups who took my WHM so nothing was stopping me from playing WHM if I wanted to.

So, yes, WHM needed to be changed they needed buffs, but the doomsaying that "you can't even play WHM because groups won't take you and you are undesirable" can't be proven and my personal experience seems to be hinting at the opposite; that WHMs seemed to be still widely accepted even though they were lacking some. So unless we can find proof the majority refused to take WHMs then all that doomsaying means nothing.

I mean they nerfed AST balance card back to before 3.4 around launch of Omega Savage, did you see me in the healer forums making a post going "Welp AST is doomed, they are going to be shunned and kicked out of statics and blocked like they were back in 3.0" just because that is what happened to me? Nope, because I realize that my experience alone doesn't show with facts that such a thing will happen again or if it was that widespread and anyway I agree with balance card being nerfed in order to close the gap for healer balance.

Stop living in the past. It's gone. I am not saying SE won't make a mistake again possibly and unbalance the healers again, but if they do then come and voice your disapproval. For now like others have said the healers are as balanced as much as they could probably get since 100% balance is impossible to achieve with jobs that play differently and have separate toolkits.

So if you -still- don't like WHM then I suggest you move on to a new job because like I said before every time someone challenges your opinions on WHM your default argument against anything said is always "exclusion", but you have no proof of it beyond your personal experience. So find some other legs to stand on or I suggest you just stop posting all the paranoia doomsaying and negativity about WHM all the time. All that constant negativity eventually doesn't help your cause, but starts to hurt it.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

As for statics, if you were in one at the time, there were tons of people that were pressured into going AST for the raid.

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As for this specific quote I wanted to tackle this by itself.

I mean you openly admit you have no proof then you say this though...

How do you know tons of people were pressured into going AST? Who are these "tons" of people and how are you privy to their personal static information? I mean I have been in 5 different statics since launch and usually static arguments, drama, or dirty laundry etc were kept within the static and not aired out for the whole server to see. The idea that you somehow overheard or found out about "tons" of WHMs pressured into going AST across tons of statics seems well ridiculous to say the least.

I understand the idea that you personally can see PF groups and look at them to see if they are blocking out WHMs, but how are you privy to "tons" of internal static goings on where they had a main WHM and was trying to force them into playing AST?

I am sorry, but it seems to me you are simply making things up to make it sound like what you are claiming is true no matter how much I call you out for having zero proof of it.

You need to stop making these ridiculous claims unless you have some evidence to back it up.

I think this is why I'm not a fan of Duty time when being a WHM because all I can do is throw a rock and yeah it helps but it never feels enough - and then I get shouted at for not doing enough DPS as WHM

Just stop to put WHM as a victim (and stop the predictions too please which are false since last april).
We are not in 3.4.
We are in 4.1 and all 3 healers are well balanced together.
When I see some WHM performances in speedkill (ex: Elia Sand - O2S - 4.0), It demonstrate this job is really good no matter you go for progression or speedkill.
Furthermore, for Bahamut Ultimate, it will be picked for sure, maybe more than AST.

Now about the initial topic, maybe Divine Benison could see an improvement when we have 3 stacks of Lilies (10% shield for the group, 60 sec cd) ; which will be the new trait "Secret of Lily II", thats all,.

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Originally Posted by Maku

So what this thread is saying is make WHM a SCH? Or is adding more mitigation tools to WHM making SCH like WHM?

Either way, healers are getting closer and closer to being the same thing with just an aesthetic difference. Do you really want that?

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You tend to see that across the board. "Distinct but equivalent" is REALLY hard to get right. The usual result is more similarities. It's why I tend to groan every time someone says we need another healing job. What's going to be distinct about it that will fit into the game without displacing someone else?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

You tend to see that across the board. "Distinct but equivalent" is REALLY hard to get right. The usual result is more similarities. It's why I tend to groan every time someone says we need another healing job. What's going to be distinct about it that will fit into the game without displacing someone else?

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Lucky that job is not for anyone here. SE has talented designers, and it's up to them to create a unique job then can provide an experience without displacing another healers role in groups.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Aslyum is also... odd. If Collective Unconscious went back to its initial incarnation of having the effect change between sects, I would say Asylum is fine as is, but right now... not really. In my head, CU and Asylum serve more or less the same end as Whispering Dawn: a "free" HoT CD that costs no MP and GCD. However, Asylum is by far the weakest of the three.

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Asylum is the one I'd change to do this. People like to focus on Divine Benison, but that's a lot more useful as-is than Asylum. As it stands right now, Asylum is pretty easy to forget about most of the time and not feel like you're missing anything, aside from dropping it on the tank for some extra free HoT after you've used lilies on something better. It's really not comparable to Sacred Soil or Collective Unconscious at all, in part because the effect just isn't that strong and in part because getting it requires standing in the Asylum for an extended period of time... and on an awful lot of encounters being able to stand still that long means you likely don't need much healing anyway.

Hell, even making Asylum give you a HoT if you run through it so you can leave would be a welcome improvement, although that wouldn't be mitigation. (You could do something similar as a mini DB if you wanted it to give mitigation instead, or something that adds X% defense stat while you're in it, which would be pretty great on a tank and less so but still helpful on everyone else.)

TBH, I'm not convinced WHM needs more mitigation outside of double WHM scenarios, but I think SE makes pretty clear they don't encourage that anyway (see: double SCH).

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Lucky that job is not for anyone here. SE has talented designers, and it's up to them to create a unique job then can provide an experience without displacing another healers role in groups.

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The problem is that they don't really seem to care much for actually putting effort into cooking up diverse and well fleshed out healing abilities. Talented they might be, but Yoshida's job team is incredibly one dimensional and short sighted when it comes to healers IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The problem is that they don't really seem to care much for actually putting effort into cooking up diverse and well fleshed out healing abilities. Talented they might be, but Yoshida's job team is incredibly one dimensional and short sighted when it comes to healers IMHO.

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Well yeah, they have a bad track record. When they wanted to add a new healer instead of creating a new unique experience, they just took made a healer that could assume the role of either of their already existing healers with a push of a stance.

BUT, that only works once. They'll need to do something unique next time they add a healing job.

This is why shielding and particularly AOE shielding are bad for the game and the healing meta. The more shielding gets added to healer jobs, the faster we slide down the slippery slope towards persistent spamming of AOE one-shot mechanics just to make healers relevant. Every new ability and tool that healers are given has potentially far-reaching consequences for the healing meta. Give WHM mitigation and then SCH and AST say, "WHM can do everything, we need Cure III", which is now pretty egregiously overpowered thanks to Thin Air.

WHM does not need mitigation; mitigation and AOE healing both need major nerfs across the board. The latest change to Succor was the exact opposite of what should've happened: Nocturnal Aspected Helios should've been reduced to Succor's level and had its MP cost increased. I am frankly astonished that AST has not seen any nerf. AOE Bole + Collective in particular is "wtf were they thinking" territory.

Nobody likes to see their Job get the bat, and I understand that. But we really need to be honest about this because, otherwise, where does it end?

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Again, I'll say that I wouldn't complain at all if WHM got buffs, I just think it's got a great kit and a good game flow as of now, and a lot of the criticism is unwarranted.

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Ah, yes. I was talking exclusively about AoE healing oGCDs. I know Benediction is great, but the AoE oGCDS WHM has still pale in comparison to the ones SCH and AST possess.

You could say that it's not "that big a deal" to heal using a GCD instead of none, but it definitely grants much more mobility to the other jobs on top of the aforementioned efficiency, neither of which WHM has. And when you're striving to deal as much damage as possible (which is WHM's method of competing against the rDPS contributions of SCH and AST), stopping to cast a GCD heal is a bigger detriment than you would think.

While it's true that CU needs you to stop all your actions for up to 3 seconds before people get the HoT, it still has the mitigation element, it's still the strongest AoE HoT in the game, and once the HoT is applied both the AST and the rest of the party can forget about it and move wherever needed, whereas Asylum is just a static bubble with a mediocre potency HoT. Also, if you time CU right with server ticks you can have a literal instant HoT applied, which takes less time than a GCD cooldown. Honestly, for the awkward immobility Asylum has, I would say it deserves to have its potency per tick doubled, even if it means an overall duration decrease to match the same final total potency.

Earthly Star vs Cure III is kind of a finicky argument, since Cure III only edges out the former in very early progression, while AST needs to learn the fight to figure out the timing of the Star burst. Once that knowledge is down, though? It's likely that Cure III won't be used ever again save for really specific instances, even when running AST+WHM comps.

Even when using the Cure III Almagest solo-heal example, both AST and SCH can solo heal it using their own tools, so I don't think that's necessarily an advantage. WHM does it "easier" by just spamming the same spell over and over, but while also generating almost twice as much Enmity as the other two jobs, which is always risky in that particular part, specially if you're not running with a PLD.

To finish off, I definitely agree that WHM's kit is good and has a good flow of play right now. I don't think it needs buff to function. Heck, WHM is hands down the absolute best dungeon healer due to the raw power of its single target heals and AoE DPS. But for raids?

I'm just saying, when you compare all three kits against each other, the whole "WHM is the raw power healer" argument doesn't really hold up too well.

I repeat, I don't think it's needed to buff WHM, in the sense that it has a relatively healthy spot in the meta right now. It's safe, it's got infinite MP, and can spam huge heals. But the feeling of raw power really isn't there once you see Earthly Star topping everyone off from sub-30% and SCH putting out as much healing as Cure III while running every 30 seconds.

This is mostly coming from the user experience PoV. You can argue that it's an entirely subjective thing, and you would be right, honestly. I just don't see the issue in strengthening WHM's supposed identity, given that it would very likely not even change the meta as it currently stands. If anything, you'd only get more Scholars complaining about the job's low healing potencies and trying to get SE to buff SCH into a WHM with shields and a fairy.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

. They'll need to do something unique next time they add a healing job.

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It's sad that I have to say this, but I absolutely dread the thought of a new healer anytime soon.
They simply can't get it right with the ones they already have, what chance do they have with a new healer joining this mess?
I think one of the main problems is the healers can all do too much right now.
SCH can mitigate, and Regen, and burst heal, and do near WHM level DPS, and offer utility.

AST can do all of the above but more utility and less damage.

WHM is probably the only balanced healer in this regard. It heals heavily with strong GCD heals and not much else.
So what's left for the next healer? Regens? WHM has that. Mitigation? Two other healers have that. They really need to calm down with giving SCH and AST everything and calling it balanced by putting it in a CD

I think about in the form of design:

I love WHM, but the class is a pure healer that also has high DPS for a healer.
A raid design that intentionally forces mitigation or the party wipes means that WHM can not function fully in there.
In short, it is not the fault of WHM. It is a design flaw (unless the intention was to take WHM out of the picture for that map)...

Tanks are responsible for controlling the battlefield and using their heavy armor and skills to mitigate damage.
Remember, that the whole reason a tank exists is to withstand and redirect the damage meant for others to themselves....

Bring two WHM into a map, and a mitigation-check causes everyone to wipe.
That is on the map design, not the healer...since any healer by endgame who has mitigation will know how to use it and apply it well.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I think one of the main problems is the healers can all do too much right now.

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They can do too much now because of people complaining constantly about healers not being able to do the exact same things the other healers do.

I mean look at this thread. It is your thread. What did you suggest in the OP?

To give WHM more things they can do.

So I find it kind of strange you would be the one to bring this up...I mean sure a weak aoe shield for WHM on a long cooldown isn't going to break the game or balance really, but you still asked for it and it is doing the same thing you just said was the main problem: giving healers, in this case WHM, more things they can do.

I mean the same thing happens with DPS jobs and I found it really funny when Yoshida and his team during a live letter basically said 'If you want what another job has go play the other job then' because people were in a huge uproar about SMN that they couldn't heal people like a RDM can because Physick is weak even though they finally gave them Bahamut too because SMN has been complaining about no cool or powerful looking summons for a long time.

I mean it seems to me the player base is doing this to themselves. They constantly covet things other jobs have on their preferred job that it starts to end up where every job has an answer to everything all other jobs can do as well and ends up having barely any diversity. I mean I play AST and WHM and sometimes on AST during difficult content I miss not having some of the tools WHM has like Assize, Thin Air, Cure III, or Benediction because they are powerfully useful sometimes, but I don't come to the forums and demand AST get the same things as WHM because of it.

It is the people who constantly complain about balance not being 100% that cause this to happen because like I said before 100% balance is impossible when all jobs play differently and have separate toolkits. So what can happen when people complain the jobs aren't balanced enough? SE adds more and more homogenization and gives the jobs answers to what other jobs have to close the gap.

The gap wasn't even really far to begin with in most cases and the jobs are still viably able to clear all content in the game, but just being viable and able to clear all content in the game isn't enough for some people and they will complain unless the job they personally like to play is always #1.

This isn't to say in some cases complaints are not justified because sometimes they definitely are because the gap is too large, but some people continue to complain even if the gap is pretty small. I mean SMN's complaining they can raise like RDM can but don't have Vercure....seems to me that is completely unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I mean look at this thread. It is your thread. What did you suggest in the OP?

To give WHM more things they can do.

So I find it kind of strange you would be the one to bring this up...

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I know it sounds hypocritical, but I said what I said in regards to healers going forward.
Right now though, in this expansion specifically, I think it does need something extra to compete properly with the other healers in more than just the progression phase of a raid.

What I would TRULY like is for all healers to be stripped of their huge multipurpose design and focus on one main thing. SCH and mitigation/fairy usage. AST with raid utility. WHM with heavy heals.

But that's simply not going to happen so, we have to talk about how to balance them as they are now, and for right now, I feel some form of utility or small AOE mitigation on a CD is needed.

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but just being viable and able to clear all content in the game isn't enough for some people and they will complain unless the job they personally like to play is always #1.

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You're right on one part. Viability isn't enough for me. Viability is such a broad, wide sweeping word. It just means that it's not broken. That it can clear content, despite how it feels to play, how it is comparatively to other jobs, how fun a job is.
I really do hate the word at this point, it feels like it's a poor excuse to ignore issues with the job.

Why should a job stop at being viable? That's not what anyone should aim for or accept.

As for me wanting them to be #1, that's not true at all. I simply want jobs to be able to stand up comparatively to eachother.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Right now though, in this expansion specifically, I think it does need something extra to compete properly with the other healers in more than just the progression phase of a raid.

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Do you at least understand how speed running works?

A group of 8 competent individuals try to clear content in the fastest way possible. Meaning that the 2 most suited tanks/healers and 4 DPS are used, and every other job is excluded. So lets not cry a river for WHM here, the same goes for another 6 jobs.

Now the reason that most people are okay with this is because the healer that is being excluded from this is generally amazing for all other parts of raiding. That includes progression AND weekly. And as stated a hundred times, the majority of the playerbase will not be speed running in the first place, so it's irrelevant to probably most of us even posting in this thread.

Your suggestion is to boost WHM so that they are included in speed runs. Then we have a situation where one other job is alienated, but actually this WHM job is now guaranteed a slot in speed running groups AND has the best kit for progression/weeklies. That result in itself is far worse balanced than what we have now.

We're not stuck in 3.4. AST got its main utility nerfed, SCH got gutted and WHM was the only healer to come out in 4.x actually feeling a lot better.

A little reminder as well, people crying unnecessarily about a job is why we got the hot mess that AST was in 3.4 until 4.1. You doing the same with WHM is only going to be detrimental to the role, if anyone's even still listening to you seriously. *roll eyes*

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

You're right on one part. Viability isn't enough for me. Viability is such a broad, wide sweeping word. It just means that it's not broken. That it can clear content, despite how it feels to play, how it is comparatively to other jobs, how fun a job is.
I really do hate the word at this point, it feels like it's a poor excuse to ignore issues with the job.

Why should a job stop at being viable? That's not what anyone should aim for or accept.

As for me wanting them to be #1, that's not true at all. I simply want jobs to be able to stand up comparatively to eachother.

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A job being viable for the content and accepted by majority for the content is a totally different issue than the job being "fun".

Whether or not a job is "fun" and how the job "feels" to play is all subjective.

Viability is not based on subjectivity it is based on if the job can perform the necessary functions to clear a piece of content.

"Fun" and "viable" are not related at all. A job can be "subjectively fun", but "not viable" or also a job can be "subjectively not fun", but "viable". Completely separate issues.

I mean you say it is a poor excuse to ignore issues, but what issues? Your personal issues that you don't find WHM fun even though it is completely viable at the moment? Viability is what SE is highly likely concerned with more in the case of balance since fun is subjective. Just because some people don't find it fun to play doesn't mean the job isn't viable and doesn't mean there are not many many other players who DO find it fun to play.

I mean you seem to be VERY concerned with people ostracizing jobs from parties, but the thing that causes that to happen on a large scale is viability; -not- if the job is fun to play or not because just because someone else finds WHM personally "not fun" to play doesn't cause them to block WHMs from their parties as long as WHM is completely viable to clear the content.

For example, I hate DRG and do not find it fun to play, but I never block DRG from PF parties I make or not join groups that have a DRG in them or something.

I have told you many times that you likely should give up and switch to a different job other than WHM and it is because of this mentality you have. If you don't have fun on WHM why do you play it still? I also clarified that it doesn't mean I think no complaints are ever justified because sometimes they are.

So no I didn't say viability means we can ignore issues, but the balance gap needs to be much larger than it is right now to change WHM. Otherwise like I said we run into this problem where people are clamoring for balance to be 100% so then you get more and more homogenized jobs that play really similarly or basically have all the same tools that every other job has.

3.4 for example? Yes, WHM balance with SCH and AST the gap was way too far to not make changes and attempt to close the gap closer. The complaints were justified. Now though? It seems to me only a very small minority are still complaining about WHM. I see WHMs everywhere in game and a lot of people play it and seem to love it.

Also sorry if it looked like I was specifically targeting you, I was speaking in general, so that job being #1 thing wasn't directed specifically at you. After the first sentences that directly mentions your post my post becomes simply general statements of my opinion and not aimed at anyone in particular.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I mean you say it is a poor excuse to ignore issues, but what issues?

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Actually I meant that in a general sense. That when there ARE balancing issues, the word viable to excuse it's imbalance is used oftenly, even though a jobs viability is never questioned, just how they compare to other jobs in their role.
Basically it was just me ranting a little.
If I were to be completely honest right now, I do agree that healers are the most balanced they've been since the start of HW. Expecting more than that is pushing it I suppose.

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If you don't have fun on WHM why do you play it still?
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I do have fun on WHM. It's more or less the only healer I use in savage/ex content.
Which probably is why I'm so cautious with their balancing. Because if I can't play WHM I'd rather not heal at all. I actually just went Monk for 3.4 and on because of how bad WHM was, and I don't want to see that happen again.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

As for me wanting them to be #1, that's not true at all. I simply want jobs to be able to stand up comparatively to eachother.

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You do realize that the WHM buffs you (continue) to request would turn WHM into essentially into the what AST became in 3.4, yes?

As I've repeated stated over the course of multiple threads - stop treating WHM like it's the 3.4 WHM when AST managed to outshine WHM in every single aspect. I don't ever see you articulate why you think WHM is "not balanced" in the current incarnation and thus request continual buffs. All I ever here from you is "exclusion" or "imbalance" with little details about why you feel they are imbalanced.

This is 4.X. WHM has better MP management than AST. WHM has better throughput healing than AST. WHM has significantly better personal DPS than AST [and before you argue RAID UTILITY - a good WHM's personal DPS will outshine a decent AST's personal and raid DPS contribution; refer to comments regarding comfort level and how it allows players to play at a higher level versus non-comfortable jobs].

And finally, WHMs aren't being excluded from groups. During my static's raid break last night I took pictures of every single High-end Duty PF ( here's the album - Approximately 9:30PM EST October 20th, 2017 ). All the parties there either had a WHM in the group or was seeking a healer that included WHM. The only two parties seeking a non-WHM healer already had a WHM in the other slot.

To me, each healer brings their own strengths and weaknesses to the table and some are more suited for certain types of content than others. This doesn't mean they're unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Actually I meant that in a general sense. That when there ARE balancing issues, the word viable to excuse it's imbalance is used oftenly, even though a jobs viability is never questioned, just how they compare to other jobs in their role.
Basically it was just me ranting a little.
If I were to be completely honest right now, I do agree that healers are the most balanced they've been since the start of HW. Expecting more than that is pushing it I suppose.


I do have fun on WHM. It's more or less the only healer I use in savage/ex content.
Which probably is why I'm so cautious with their balancing. Because if I can't play WHM I'd rather not heal at all. I actually just went Monk for 3.4 and on because of how bad WHM was, and I don't want to see that happen again.

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Okay, I understand your point of view better now so at least we have come to a better understanding mutually. Thank you for taking the time to read what I said and to reflect on what I was trying to explain to you. I mean if humans were capable of perfection then it wouldn't be expecting too much to have 100% balance with still having separate toolkits and different play styles, but yeah I feel at this time most people seem to agree the healers are very closely balanced and making it any closer just isn't possible without bad side effects like homogenization and making the jobs too similar to each other and no diversity.

3.4 all we can do is hope it doesn't happen again. It is best not to dwell on it and just have fun in the now, 3.4 level of unbalance is gone and hopefully for good. If something like that where there is too large of a gap between the balance happens again then yeah we'll all be here to show disapproval.

I mean I went through that too in 3.0 like I said I really loved AST but I was blocked out of groups due to it being unbalanced with WHM and SCH and people wouldn't let me play it and it took me awhile to finally find a group that would let me play it and it wasn't until Midas and after AST got buffs they needed so I missed out on doing Gordias on the job I liked, so I understand, but 3.0 is also gone so we shouldn't dwell on the past issues.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

All I ever here from you is "exclusion" or "imbalance" with little details about why you feel they are imbalanced.

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I'm pretty sure I've said it before, but I feel their lack of utility, mitigation or otherwise will EVENTUALLY lead to them being undesirable once again. Probably not on the level of 3.4, but nonetheless I feel they're treading the same path.

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[and before you argue RAID UTILITY - a good WHM's personal DPS will outshine a decent AST's personal and raid DPS contribution

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Can I ask why we constantly compare "really good" players to average players? Shouldn't we be comparing players of equal skill to eachother and go from there? Granted a really good AST still can't match a WHMs DPS, but at that point their utility does push them ahead. Besides utility isn't all about the DPS meter, but what else they bring to the raid. AST brings more than just damage boosts. Stuff that WHM couldn't even begin to touch.

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And finally, WHMs aren't being excluded from groups.

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Also said this before, but I didn't say they were being excluded now. I just feel like with them more or less treading the same path as 3.0 WHM (no utility, no synergy, higher healing), it's going to end up happening again where WHM is just undesirable.

___

But honestly I'm not trying to continue this debate. I know my fears are pretty baseless, and it's probably just a result of WHM being the only healer I care to play.
Overall I do think healers are pretty fairly balanced right now and that's good enough.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Can I ask why we constantly compare "really good" players to average players? Shouldn't we be comparing players of equal skill to eachother and go from there?

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At the absolute pinnacle of skill in a speed kill group, people will be looking to optimize for the best kits possible. This means finding the groups with the best overall DPS and best synergies to optimize this.

At levels below this (the vast majority of players), players should pick the job that gives them the best comfort. Generally speaks better comfort = better skill = better overall play which means a higher overall contribution to the success of the party. Players shouldn't feel forced to pick a job "because it's not Meta" because most of us don't play at the skill and coordination that makes meta compositions just that - the pinnacle of meta.

This is why I argue that players should pick the job that gives them the most comfort - and by extension enjoyment. This generally also means their net contribution to a group will be higher, hence a highly skilled WHM would offer more to a group versus the same WHM who doesn't have the same comfort level with the AST kit. This can easily be applicable in the other way around too.

In terms of mitigation, mitigation is only useful to a point where there's enough HP to survive an attack. This is important in excessively low ilvl groups. In higher ilvl groups, as long as the players can survive the mechanics without mitigation, one could argue the massive throughput WHM offers can be more beneficial as it means less GCDs necessary to top groups off.

There's always a lot of things to consider but you seem to desire more tools from the kits of AST and SCH without considering giving up certain tools WHM have available. As Miste said, if you really want those tools so badly, please go the job that has those tools. A job that can do everything is the epitome of overpowered and I'm sure you also don't want to see that either.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

WHM has significantly better personal DPS than AST [and before you argue RAID UTILITY - a good WHM's personal DPS will outshine a decent AST's personal and raid DPS contribution; refer to comments regarding comfort level and how it allows players to play at a higher level versus non-comfortable jobs].

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I'm not sure what relevance this has to the discussion, aside to say that comfort level plays a role in one's performance. It's not a particularly strong argument for balance unless you're simply trying to emphasize that things aren't awful. A good X is better than a decent Y only points out that Y is not ridiculously overpowered, and it would be an even bigger cause for concern if that were the case. I mean, it's a general point I agree with that people should play what they're most comfortable with (and like the most, hopefully), but that's never going to be the end point of the discussion.

You also still talk about massive WHM throughput. I've yet to see people really prove this. It usually ends up talking about spamming cure 3 and timely PIs. When looking at logs with standard comps for healing, often only super high on bad attempts where everything is going wrong and healing throughput is really shown or normal comps that are pretty much 'solo healing,' WHM appears the most often but it is far from dominating the lists. Everything I've seen shows an advantage to WHM, but to this day I've yet to see "Massive WHM throughput" outside of Cure 3 spam despite it being thrown around all the time. Massive implies it absolutely stomps the competition. It does not appear to. AST appears quite capable here though WHM seems to have an easier time putting those numbers up. If WHM truly dwarfed when it came to throughput I'd expect those highest numbers to be nigh unmatched.

I don't think it's a big problem, either, as I dig through some of them, the ASTs matching the healing output are putting out less personal damage and probably matching the overall raid damage contribution as the WHMs. I do, however, tire of this idea that WHM can just utterly decimate on the healing side when I've never personally found that to be the case.

I'd like to derail a little and mention that Shinryu EX, despite some people not really enjoying the healing adds portion, has some interesting mechanics at play with those adds.

-Benediction is obvious. I have to gleefully mention how I'm about to delete one of them each time they spawn with benediction available.
-An easy time to use dissipation without hating the world is another option.
-I feel like you can safely regen 1-3 of the adds too and get pretty effective healing out of them.
- Scratch this, details below. I'd also have to do more testing and actually watch out for it, but I believe Assize hits the healing adds as well (and heals them) since it targets friends and foe alike. Indom wouldn't, as it's group only (I tried to Cure 3 them once, too, and I assume Medica 2 wouldn't land also). I believe earthly star would act similarly to assize, but the adds are often spread out to negate that potential use on more than 1-2.
- Nevermind here, too. Thanks for the info, Sebazy! I would think (haven't run with an AST) that Synastry might be welcome here too since tanks are still taking damage from the wings.

I've talked a lot in the past about people wanting to feel like they bring something unique and welcome to a fight, or have scenarios where certain abilities feel good to use. This may not be the most interesting healing check, but I like some of what's come as a result.
Edit: Oh well, some of these are a no-no. Pity. Still, getting to delete adds is fun.

To clarify on the adds thing:

Synastry doesn't appear to work when healing the adds frustratingly.
I'm fairly confident that Assize doesn't hit them either, but I could be wrong here.
Regen works nicely, I usually throw a couple of cure IIs and let regen finish one off.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

To clarify on the adds thing:

Synastry doesn't appear to work when healing the adds frustratingly.
I'm fairly confident that Assize doesn't hit them either, but I could be wrong here.
Regen works nicely, I usually throw a couple of cure IIs and let regen finish one off.

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I'll try to take a better look once I'm in there again. I've tried to look a few times, but it's highly possible I just happen to be looking at one my cohealer is spamming at the same time. I'll try to remember to take a video next time and see if they get a ~6k tick or so.

That's unfortunate about Synastry, though. It seems like it'd be a perfect use :/

Edit: To update, I went and checked some of our wipes I still had. I can't seem to find an instance of Assize hitting the Reiryu's despite seeing some casts when they'd have been spawned, so yes, I appear to have been mistaken. Apologies.

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Originally Posted by Erakir

I'm not sure what relevance this has to the discussion, aside to say that comfort level plays a role in one's performance. It's not a particularly strong argument for balance unless you're simply trying to emphasize that things aren't awful.

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I could be wrong, but the way I've read it is that their comment had nothing to do with balance per se but more about WHMs seclusion outside of progression. Exiled stated that WHM is only used for progression and then switched out, and I'm guessing Ghishlain's response was that somebody who mains and is comfortable with one job would probably still outperform the other even if it may theoretically be more optimal.

Edit: nvm, just read their post below. xD

As for your second point, you kind of highlighted it yourself. WHM is a powerhouse and that definitely shines during progression when people are more prone to making mistakes. They could go ham on the HPS, but you won't see that reflected in ... uhh ... data ... because that's simply not optimal.

You're right in that the difference is not huge, but there's no denying that things like Cure 3 made moves like Almagest a breeze, saving more GCDs to use for DPS. Benediction synergising with Holmgang saving you another 2-3 GCDs. These are just a few examples of the power WHM brings that AST/SCH simply cannot match. They can deal with it, but they can't match that level.

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Originally Posted by Erakir

I'm not sure what relevance this has to the discussion, aside to say that comfort level plays a role in one's performance. It's not a particularly strong argument for balance unless you're simply trying to emphasize that things aren't awful. A good X is better than a decent Y only points out that Y is not ridiculously overpowered, and it would be an even bigger cause for concern if that were the case.

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Yep, this is actually my point entirely with this. If a low-skilled player on X job can do everything a mid-skilled player can on a Y job, that means X job is much more powerful than it should be and there should be some balance between the two.

In the current iteration of healers, we don't see that divide. They all contribute similar things in different ways. There are some divides there, yes, but it isn't the massive gulf that is there when you compare WHM vs AST in the 3.4 era when AST had better MP longevity, better raid utility, and basically equal DPS.

Now that we're at the current state, people shouldn't consider swapping out healers to something that is deemed more optimal unless the group is striving actively to reach the absolute heights of speed killing.

[edit] Just edit this point a bit more for clarity's sake. In this discussion I'm not speaking towards job imbalance but more speaking towards an individual's contribution to their group. Even if the current meta is AST > SCH > WHM, a WHM who's comfortable on their job but not comfortable with either SCH or AST will most likely contribute more to their party than if they made the swap.

We're all not world first raiders or speed kill specialists. We all have different ranges of skill sets and abilities. Even if AST in theory outclasses SCH and WHM, it's still possible for the individual's skill and comfort with WHM to contribute more to their raid versus playing AST.

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Originally Posted by Erakir

You also still talk about massive WHM throughput. I've yet to see people really prove this. It usually ends up talking about spamming cure 3 and timely PIs. When looking at logs with standard comps for healing, often only super high on bad attempts where everything is going wrong and healing throughput is really shown, WHM appears the most often but it is far from dominating the lists. Everything I've seen shows an advantage to WHM, but to this day I've yet to see "Massive WHM throughput" outside of Cure 3 spam despite it being thrown around all the time. Massive implies it absolutely stomps the competition. It does not appear to.

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My definition of throughput is HPS spikes versus total healing potential. Diurnal AST has a higher healing potential cap versus WHM because their heals are overall stronger than WHM. However, AST's weakness in this regard is the fact that they're mostly constrained to their GCD in order to actually spike heal. Essential Dignity and Earthly Star from AST vs Tetragrammaton, Divine Benison, Benediction, Assize, and Plenary Indulgence from WHM. This means WHM itself has better tools to clean up oopsies if called for. Not to say AST can't do that, but WHM has more potential for wipe recovery versus AST because of their MP longevity and multitude of oGCDs at their beck and call.

This means very little for raid groups already clearing Shinryu and Omega (Savage) and have the content on farm but has significantly more bearing on those groups who are commencing with progression. In some respects this is why I disagree with using log data as a total healing potential metric because you also can't measure potential on farm groups because, well, they're doing their best to minimize necessary healing and how they go about achieving that is different from group to group, not really giving a solid picture of the healing.

If you use Neo-exdeath player healing metric, you can see there are far more WHMs versus ASTs but I still don't think that's a fair judge either as we don't know the context of each individual group on the list either.

One will definitely find more mileage out of the WHM kit in less structured environments such as Rabanastre where mechanical slips can and will happen but it's also not to say going with SCH or AST makes you a weaker healer either. It just means you need to approach if differently too.

I personally don't think I used the term "massively" ahead, but correct me if I'm wrong in this regard. I do appreciate AST has stronger GCD heals while WHM has more oGCD heals and players should use the individual kits accordingly to their strengths.

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On your topic of Assize versus Reiryu heads in Shinryu, I have seen you state that earlier this week so I decided to try it last night while we're doing Shinryu. Here's the Twitch clips for it. Unfortunately, Assize doesn't seem to heal Reiryu's ; ;

I do think the worst part of the heal check is trying to target the adds in the final phase when the massive honking hit box of the boss is in the way, lol. While I don't think the mechanic is the most interesting of heal check, I can appreciate the developers going out to try something new. I hope this leads to better and different heal checks in the future.

And yes, I also do enjoy deleting an add outright with Benediction. lol.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip about comfort levels

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I can certainly agree with this, thank you for the clarification. I just don't want potential discussions to come to a complete stop because we're in a pretty decent state all around, but I definitely appreciate recognizing our current scenario as a reason not to go AWOL, and it's particularly important to recognize that we're not all going to be pushing perfect meta styles of optimization which can lead to different healing styles being needed in different groups - on top of everything about comfort level performance.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip about healing metrics

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Do bear in mind, given the tools available at our disposal, the reason I looked at healing numbers themselves rather than speed kills was specifically to try and test this metric. Groups faring worse on their kills or pushing a solo-heal (ish, with two healers) kill is going to be a better metric of healing potential than completely optimized kills with healers doing their best to share loads as possible while putting out tons of damage. I also intentionally looked outside of Neo to see how things are faring in the other fights.

I completely agree that we're not going to get the full story, especially since wipes aren't there, and I really don't want to understate Cure 3's use in progression, myself, particularly as someone who used it all the time in the name of progression during the Gordias days. And of course, healing is always such a pain to really delve into with all the individual factors during every single fight. Throughput over an entire fight is indeed not burst throughput, and so much of our healing comes from Medica 2.

It also doesn't help my own data that I personally haven't been into Neo yet, due to our group's own situation. I'm fully confident we can, based on the actual time spent in hours on other fights, but life is life. It hurts that I can only go off what I read from others, here. I've seen a lot of nifty things SCH and AST can do in O3S and Exdeath that I find others tend to overlook when talking about raid stability.

Ultimately though I can't find myself disagreeing with you. I just worry about the general sentiment I've heard that WHM is some godly king of the healing world when it comes to progression that I see echoed off from time to time here, and I always want to make sure its particular strengths are not overstated, since ameliorating abilities to help push through those times when everyone has less limbs left than Raubahn in a fight aren't completely limited to WHM - I find a lot of them on SCH, actually. I feel like sometimes I need to go on snopes to look for someone willing to say a WHM can't pull a LB3 out of their posterior twice a fight, if that makes sense.

Also, unrelated, but while I'm here, I'm never going to like that benediction gets used so much for holmgang. Oh I completely understand it. Part of me just cringes everytime I see "Oh-shi" buttons relegated to planned uses like that, but that's simply the name of the game when it comes to optimization. I'm also slightly bitter that we've got a DRK rather than a PLD so we have the extra fun of dealing with living dead instead of hallowed, but that's unrelated to healer abilities really. Never really loved living dead's design, myself. Feel it could go down to 50-75% health needed healed as it is.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip about Reiryu's

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Yeah, Sebazy corrected me here, too. It's sad. And I swear it's ridiculous how far away they can spawn in the final phase, too. Had a few times where we both thought we were done with 10s left or so and suddenly saw that one of those heads was just laughing 35y away at 1hp. I also appreciate them trying something different with it - I always like to see them branching out with encounter design.

Thank you for going out of your way to give it a shot!

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip about forum editing

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1000 character limit why ; ;


But *high five* back - I'm glad I share my wordiness with at least another here > > I could talk healing design in MMOs for days. It's something I really really enjoy doing, heh..

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Originally Posted by Erakir

Edit: Reading posts above, weeeeee

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I know you haven't edited it in your comment yet but holy crap I think some of us are too good at walls of text. lol. *Random high fives*

[edit] I think I'm done trying to say what I'm trying to say since I tend to be too wordy and think too fast. lol >>;

They really should. It's impossible to achieve true healer balance unless all healers have access to the same, basic tools. In the case of healers it's: healing spells (single target and AoE - two levels), healing abilities (single target and AoE), DPS skills (DoT, single target, and AoE), and damage mitigation spells (single target and AoE). White Mage really should have Stoneskin I and II back, but reduce the cast time and MP costs to make them worth it.

Thematically, Stoneskin was also the "healing" Earth spell that WHM used (Cures are Wind aspected, and the healing abilities are Water aspected, I believe. Divine Benison and Plenary are probably Holy). If they fix the problem that "only Cure gives Lilies" design problem they decided to implement, then WHM's overall kit can feel more "complete".

But, blah-blah-blah homogenization. Y'all aren't complaining about WAR now having a team barrier like PLD has. In fact, you're more complaining that DRK doesn't have one.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

But, blah-blah-blah homogenization. Y'all aren't complaining about WAR now having a team barrier like PLD has. In fact, you're more complaining that DRK doesn't have one.

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This is the healer forum not the tank forum. So /shrug, I personally barely know what tanks even have in their toolkits as I don't really play them. Ain't no use complaining about tank stuff here imo xD

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Originally Posted by Miste

This is the healer forum not the tank forum. So /shrug, I personally barely know what tanks even have in their toolkits as I don't really play them. Ain't no use complaining about tank stuff here imo xD

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Yeppers. We're just healers. We like healing so that's what we like to talk about.

Ain't nobody here but us healers. Ain't nobody here a' tall. Ain't nobody here but us healers...:D

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Yeppers. We're just healers. We like healing so that's what we like to talk about.

Ain't nobody here but us healers. Ain't nobody here a' tall. Ain't nobody here but us healers...:D

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heheheeeee xD

Honestly I think they should just change secret of the lily 2 to make divine benison AoE when it consumes 3 lilies, I mean what a garbage level 68 skill, a 20% chance that something that happens about 20% of the time will proc a 5 second recast reduction on 2 already fairly short recast skills proced by a skill we rarely use? Come on... WHMs have been asking for an AoE mitigation tool for ages and we get that?

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Honestly I think they should just change secret of the lily 2 to make divine benison AoE when it consumes 3 lilies, I mean what a garbage level 68 skill, a 20% chance that something that happens about 20% of the time will proc a 5 second recast reduction on 2 already fairly short recast skills proced by a skill we rarely use? Come on... WHMs have been asking for an AoE mitigation tool for ages and we get that?

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You think divine Beninson is garbage? What world do you live in?