Please scale the difficulty of Royal Menagerie

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It would appear that a fair amount of people want to be challenged if this thread is anything to go by. If difficulty wasn't asked for or even wanted by most of the player base, the devs wouldn't have done so in the first place.

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Lets not go throwing around the most player base tag. Except for MSQ the amount of players actually doing any specific content is probably pretty low. The percentages for just savage clear didn't even equal 1/3 I want to say it was less then 15% but can't remember the link that had the numbers. So an even smaller amount of that would want harder.

The game has a disconnect of difficulty scaling and what players want. It is probably somewhere around slightly below ilvl requirement to get into a dungeon doable with effort. But then a percentage of the players has shown they would prefer dungeons to be done in 10 mins or less. A system where dungeons scale/change rewards based on a difficulty tier and removed from roulette's and duty finder might be a way to go but probably to complicated for current team. So instead we will get super extreme hardcore savage mode that less then 10% clear rate before a nerf gear cycle. And see the same people on here asking for harder stuff.

No thanks, the challenge was a welcomed surprise for an MSQ final boss.

Sadly i have a feeling SE will nerf it anyway. |:

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Originally Posted by Archvile78

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It's actually my favorite fight right now.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Lets not go throwing around the most player base tag. Except for MSQ the amount of players actually doing any specific content is probably pretty low.

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I'm just going by what I see, not what I know. I could very well be wrong with my take on things, but that's what it is: my take. The player base asks for something to be nerfed, so it gets tweaked and/or nerfed to better satisfy the demands being made of them if there really is a glaring issue. Steps of Faith, while not very difficult, was mostly mechanics and gimmicks. Since people seemed to want to ignore those things, therefore making it more difficult than it was, they apparently thought it best to just nerf it. If they feel that <insert content here> is fine as is then they will usually leave it alone based on what they see, which in RM's case is pretty much everyone clearing it or going to clear it with minimal issue. Ozma was also asked to be nerfed, and yet most groups still cleared it...so they didn't. Then you have people asking for something to be more difficult, so they make it more difficult since Final Coil was seen as easier than the first 2. So, since the hardcore crowd wanted a challenge, they decided to do just that with HW Savage modes. Just looking at Alexander, they made Gordias Savage really difficult, so they toned it down just a little bit with Midas, which was also seen at more difficult than it should have been. So, they decided to make the final wings easier than both Gordias and Midas. Then people complained it was too easy. What it all comes down to is, they'll never please everyone. I know I could never be a dev for this reason alone. People will also "git gud" when they need to, and the dev team knows that.

What they need to do is add it to a roulette then you'd have no issue getting clear. Should be in trial or better yet main scenario

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

What they need to do is add it to a roulette then you'd have no issue getting clear. Should be in trial or better yet main scenario

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It is in trial roulette.

No. Git gud.

The fight honestly isn't on extreme primal level difficulty because there's no strict dps checks or enrage. You can literally beat the entire fight with 3-4 competent people. Extreme Primals don't allow for too many deaths or the enrage kills you. Royal Menagerie doesn't have that. The fight just isn't a total faceroll like the rest of the game. You have to actually pay attention and learn it instead of being handed a win for participating. If people aren't willing to pay attention then they don't deserve to play endgame content and ruin it for others that do actually pay attention. A filter isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Royal menagerie is only hard when most of the party you get consists of people in quest HQ white gear, which is inferior to dungeon gear. Anyone who enters without at least doing their 70 job quest and equipping that gear, and maybe having a few pieces of 300 gear from ala mhigo itself is seriously hampering the group.

An entire group of people in at least 310 gear with a tank who knows how to break the boss aggro table (my FC has a tank who loves to do that if his co tank dies, he is one of those crazy tanks who does not mind solo tanking the akh morns) can 4 man the fight with 1 tank 1 healer and 2 DPS.

In fact there are even sometimes (though still rare) party finder groups where people 4 man the fight and carry lazy people through, the lazy people can just let themselves die. Done by people who enjoy the fight and have it practiced.

The fight is only going to get easier as more people get geared in the DF.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

The percentages for just savage clear didn't even equal 1/3 I want to say it was less then 15% but can't remember the link that had the numbers. So an even smaller amount of that would want harder.

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Not sure if that's really a good comparison. The reason some people, myself included, who raid heavily in other games and enjoy difficult content do not do so in XIV is because there really is no reason to raid. The rewards are marginal and outdate at hyperspeed. There are no long term benefits and most the items are just GC seal trash. Let's not even get started on the odd chest system and drops of savage. There is also no new story, no new content, just the same ol same ol with a few extra moves added. It's also just a series of 1 off bosses that lack creativity.

So Savage is kindda pointless if you are not a super fan or haven't explored the incredible endgame of other mmos. I would say the lack of numbers is more for these reasons than people not wanting difficulty.

That fight took like 4 wipes.... How is that Ex primal?

They have no intention on messing with the difficulty of the fight. Just look at the previous live letter digest and you'll see for yourself. Learn the fight and if you have issues clearing it, grab people in Party Finder.

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Originally Posted by Archvile78

No thanks, the challenge was a welcomed surprise for an MSQ final boss.

Sadly i have a feeling SE will nerf it anyway. |:

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They already kinda already said they are not going to nerf it as they wanted this fight to be challenging and anyways with echo probably coming in 4.1 that will make it even easier, they never nerfed the final steps of faith which was about the same difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

they never nerfed the final steps of faith which was about the same difficulty.

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Actually they did nerf Steps unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Actually they did nerf Steps unfortunately.

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I hate how similar these names are. The original Steps of Fate was nerfed but Final (The Nidhogg fight) was never nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Actually they did nerf Steps unfortunately.

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The ONLY thing that was changed in Final Steps was making it easier to tell when you hit the add enrage if you didn't kill them fast enough. Otherwise the fight difficulty itself was untouched.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

Yeah, I can hear already all you really expert players say "but it's not hard, leave it as it is" and "but the finale of the MSQ should be hard", just as "but once you get better gear in a patch or two everyone can faceroll it" or even the atrocious "git gud".

People who play FFXIV only casually (the majority, and that.is.okay) also deserve to enjoy the MSQ instead of having this massive source of stress and frustration at the end of the story line

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If someone is really struggling with mechanics they've seen over and over again they're not "casual", they're bad.


The fight is a refresher course with new bg music. The only “new” mechanic I can think of is the HUGE knock back aoe..but its less that its new and more that we’ve never seen one that big. Tidal wave? Levi. Diamond dust? Shiva. Attack the suddenly exposed body part to speed up the fight? Bismark. etc

I consider myself a casual- don’t really do EXs unless my friends need a body and I’ve never set foot in savage. I beat RM through duty finder on the third day of EA. All but 2 of my team were new and running blind, and a few of the new people had not done their lv 70 quest. After every wipe we talked about what got X killed vs what Y did to survive it, pointed out things to each other (a la, BRD can you watch my mana closer, RDM be more careful with displacement), and even joked around.

It took 3 pulls.
The difficulty was fine then, the difficulty is fine now.

There are two sides of difficulty I've seen vented about RM:

-Trying to complete it with a pug

-Actual difficulty running it with a premade ( and by that, I mean running with friends and fc mates and not strictly PF)

I found that the ones who voice that RM is too hard are the ones trying to pug because at its core, you're playing with people with all sorts of personal learning speeds. That's primarily what makes not just RM but any other content harder than it could usually be. Premade voices are the lowest. Some actually relished the difficulty with their premade because they know each other skills, dispositions and playing style. Even if they wipe, they tend do so less than pugs because they take time to point out observations and try different strategies and no one gets really stressed out about it.

If you find RM is highly difficult because you're trying to pug it for a clear, chances are of course you're going to intrinsically blame the trial because there's a far wider margin of errors in a collective of unknowns than known people. That's not squarely the game's problem. If you're the lone type or don't have many friends, again, tough luck: you're just going to have to put up with DF until you can find that group that has a desire to win no matter the challenges but also patient (or at least try to be) with one another.

And now my personal RM anecdote:

My first RM run took us six tries. I was co-tanking. We wiped two times on the first half but it was clear that it was just a learning process because on the third (and subsequent tries), we nailed the first part. The "difficult" part of this RM was trying to get the hang of the second half ( the part where you're transported to the other arena). The reason for that is that unlike the first part, the second part wiped us pretty fast, thus it was hard to learn from our mistakes because we couldn't exactly grasp the mechs in their entirety. This took us two more tries.
The fifth time we came close but I botched us up. Turns out I've been messing up dodging the tail mech the second half all those turns (but somehow survived them) because I could not see (from my camera POV) where the tail was landing and I kept getting killed by it. The punishment window in that second half for tanks can spell death for the entire group simply due to how fast ahk morn pops up. On the sixth turn, I made use of my co-tank flexibility to move around freely and adjust my camera to avoid the tails. Those few seconds I spent not dpsing the boss and just simply wait for the tail to come up and dodge it meant that I was ready for ahk morn at all times. The other dps that turn also kept nailing that tail mech and honestly, I can say that turn, it was as if the entire group just played like true experts.

I'm not saying the sixth time was easy. It was still difficult BUT it was only possible to clear it because everyone persevered and to my credit, no one was trying to put anyone else down when they faulted. We only managed to improve at each turn. And no, that did not make us "no-lifers" for spending time on it.

RM won't be nerfed. It's supposed to be difficult. Otherwise, what's the point of doing an instance if it's too easy?

There are only 2 things to look out for in Royal. Diamond Dust and that blue AOE move that does knock back. If you don't think you can make it to the edge on the blue knock back move, stand in the middle and take the hit. It does't do much damage and easier for healers to AOE heal than raise if you fall off. I say this everytime I get it in trial and no issues clearing

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Originally Posted by EorzeaHero69

RM won't be nerfed. It's supposed to be difficult. Otherwise, what's the point of doing an instance if it's too easy?

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story. there is no reason to ever come back to it.
anyway I did it twice with pugs. my first time which died on the 2nd pull. and another one which died on the 3rd pull. never had it in trial roulette though i usually don't do this on a 70 job. ppl just need to calm down and if necessary explain mechanics. I see more problems with Susano and Lakshmi story trials. especially susano.
RM is fine and we will get the EX fight in 4.1. I guess it will be much more challenging than the other 2 SB EX fights we have so far.

No nerfs please. Just coz its not doable on first try doesnt mean it should be nerfed. The only change i would support is perhaps separating the phases ala exdeath/neo ex death to reduce frustration.

I like how the OP hasn't made a post here since his initial one.

I'm also of the opinion that RM should NOT be nerfed, period. Casual or no, if you want an MMO that you can just mindlessly smash through with little challenge, go play Maplestory. This is the end-game at level 70 of Stormblood...it doesn't make sense to curbstomp the final boss of 4.0. The mechanics are fine as they are. The super casual part of the player base that wants everything outside of extreme and savage to be easy needs to stop acting like...well, in the words of Ilberd, stop acting like your balls have been cut off.

And players need to stop throwing a temper tantrum on the first wipe. No, I don't pay your sub, but if you throw a temper tantrum because of a first wipe or because you didn't bother to actually learn how to play, or won't bother to actually work with your party to figure out what's causing wipes and how to help them, then perhaps you should unsub. Instant gratification is in full effect nowadays, it seems. Always wanting everything easy, smh.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

If you can't beat Royal Menagerie, then what are you going to do when 24 man raid comes out? Ask for them to nerf that too? No thanks. Making everything super easy is causing the game to be really dull already.

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Those having vast difficulty with this trial aren't going to tackle the 24 man raids. If they were players who tackled that content, they would have been prepared for a lot of it in terms of high-speed reaction time and being familiar with these mechanics. That's the problem, that this trial caps off the MSQ, so those players are not getting the ending to their story. Which is all they really want until the next chapter comes out.

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Originally Posted by AlexRaines

We REALLY need to get over this “everyone should be allowed to do everything with little effort” mentality that pervades this game and its community.

People don’t DESERVE anything from this game. Put in effort, push yourself, ask others for help learning what certain things do or how to handle things, succeed.

This all sounds like git gud, and I guess it is, but the real world doesn’t owe you anything, and neither does this game.

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https://m.popkey.co/f5f542/JmK1k.gif
Your entire response was beautiful.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

your kidding right the royal menagerie is harder than , gaurda ex for sure, and Id say its harder than lamsiki extreme to, as well as bismark the only thing in bis really is the dps check on the adds, and Id also say its harder than ifrit extreme to

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Did you run these fights at minium ilvl, level sync'd back in the day? Titan EX, for instance, was a nightmare back in the day. People should stop comparing RM with ex or savage, they have no idea what they're talking about.

The trial is not the issue, players are......

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Originally Posted by AlexRaines

We REALLY need to get over this “everyone should be allowed to do everything with little effort” mentality that pervades this game and its community.

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In their defense, it is the final fight that unlocks accumulation of things like Tomestones etc at endgame.

Not saying I disagree. I think that fights should be challenging enough for the content level, and I think Royal Menagerie is perfectly fine.. I am just saying that it's a story fight that gates you toward working on end game content which is where the game "starts" for a lot of people.

Though without being too harsh, I do question the need for Tomestone gear for those who cannot beat this fight - as they won't really be able to beat any of the new trials that require tome gear in the first place.

The biggest issue in terms of difficulty is the progression. Royal Menagerie is quite a jump up from the previous instanced story fight. They need to have better difficulty progression to get people used to improving their skills.

Please observe the following gif as it holds the secrets to overcoming Menagerie:

https://media.tenor.com/images/725f5...4a02/tenor.gif

It was fairly challenging at launch. Its a lot better now that the average ilv of people in the df is usually above 300.

TRM (will never and) should never be nerfed, especially now that people who have beaten it can/should be able to get their i330 weapon (and i320-i330 gear). I got this fight roughly a week or so ago in Roulette and we beat it in one shot. Four people were new.

It is not a hard fight, especially when people pay attention to mechanics (most of which have all been seen before).

The dungeon has been scaled, to level 70.

They don't need to nerf it, OP. It will happen as time goes by. There is a good chance you are gear starved and that's why it seems hard. By the time 5.0 is a thing it will be just another roulette and until 5.0 is on the horizon, MSQ isn't really mandatory.

I get your frustration. I just tried to make persimmon leaf sushi with no melds and no specialist. It didn't work out so well and I pissed a bunch of high priced HQ mats in to the toilet but it's because I got ahead of myself. You might not think crafting a culinary recipe can be compared to a final dungeon but in the end, they are the same. It's pure gear and 3 macros worth of skill rotation.

Fact: If you can't do the Menagerie, you can't do the other level 70 content either. Casual or no, all it takes is not being completely inept. There is a lot of breathing room in the encounter, which is something that a lot of other level 70 encounters do not offer.

In other words, the Menagerie is fine. Git gud.

Royal Menagerie is one of the best fights and it's way properly tuned.

It's called paying attention to the mechanics, instead of tunnel visioning.

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Originally Posted by Altena

The biggest issue in terms of difficulty is the progression. Royal Menagerie is quite a jump up from the previous instanced story fight. They need to have better difficulty progression to get people used to improving their skills.

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Without sounding like im coming across like a dick, at some point the difficulty changes from the MSQ to EX primals, now obviously its noticeably harder doing the latter. But if the MSQ is deemed "easy" and extreme primals are deemed "hard", this difficulty progression you mention has to start somewhere, so what's wrong with it being RM?

Personally it think the RM needs to be this difficult to prepare players for what's to come in the end game content, especially when they release the 24 man raid.

Plus, its been said before, now people can enter with i300+ items its now easier.

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Originally Posted by Jelly_Baby

Without sounding like im coming across like a dick, at some point the difficulty changes from the MSQ to EX primals, now obviously its noticeably harder doing the latter. But if the MSQ is deemed "easy" and extreme primals are deemed "hard", this difficulty progression you mention has to start somewhere, so what's wrong with it being RM?

Personally it think the RM needs to be this difficult to prepare players for what's to come in the end game content, especially when they release the 24 man raid.

Plus, its been said before, now people can enter with i300+ items its now easier.

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I think you massively misunderstand my post. I am not saying that RM needs to be easier. I am saying that content beforehand actually needs to be harder.......

My point is they just sprout up from nowhere. Again, don't get me wrong - I love the RM fight, and I absolutely think it's tuned correctly for a final boss fight of the story for an expansion.

The track record for story in this game is facerolley duties where you can let the NPCs do all the work for you, or just press 1 button over and over and you win, followed by one "grand finale" fight toward the end.
The issue is that there is a very steep curve from complete faceroll / braindead easy and RM.

I wouldn't consider RM faceroll or close to it. People were comparing it to ex primals which I disagree with. I think the closest comparison in difficulty is about the same in difficulty as a 24-man raid boss (if they were tuned to be 8-man).
People were having a considerable amount of trouble clearing it, which is totally fine - but the issue is that difficulty in this game is like an on/off switch. There is no progression like I mentioned before..
The progression should start as early as when you're fending of ghosts in that level 10 or whatever quest in Lower La Noscea with Y'shtola. It shouldn't just suddenly hit you at the end of the 3rd expansion.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Snip Snip

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I misinterpreted your post lol. My bad!

But I agree with you though, every MSQ duty up till this point is very easy so yep, the jump from that to the RM fight is a big step up. Sorry about that :D

The difficulty level of SB primals is basically all down to if you have healers who can dodge aoes. That is the sole reason for all wipes I experienced while leveling.

Maybe they just need to add the JP Button from XI and they will be happy.

Push that button, a cutscene plays showing your character totally owning whatever bosss you used it on. Cutscene ends to a pile of treasure and credit for completing all the content. Good job!!

Sometimes I think people want a graphic novel more than a RPG.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Though without being too harsh, I do question the need for Tomestone gear for those who cannot beat this fight - as they won't really be able to beat any of the new trials that require tome gear in the first place.

The biggest issue in terms of difficulty is the progression. Royal Menagerie is quite a jump up from the previous instanced story fight. They need to have better difficulty progression to get people used to improving their skills.

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They'll need that ilevel when the next story dungeons come out, as SE scales content on readily available gear. And that last point is exactly right. It's very out of step with the difficulty established by the MSQ before it.