Tales from the Storm Discussion

Was a cute read.

I want to go have lemonade with Lyse in Limsa now.
Lemonade with Lyse in Limsa.
Try saying that three times fast.

So, the girls of FFXIV drink tea and talk about boys. There goes our Bechdel rating!

Still, was a cute enough story, though I personally prefer the stories that actually reveal stuff about the characters that we don't already know.
- Y'shtola is a very private person. (We knew this.)
- Lyse can be a bit dim at times. Most times, really. (We knew this.)
- Aphinaud greatly admires Estinien. (We knew this.)
- Allisae greatly admires the WoL. (We knew this.)
- The WoL is a busy person. (Gods, do we know this.)

Pretty much the only thing this story accomplished was to torpedo the Lyse/Hien and Y'shtola/Thancred ships. And not even that, really; while Y'shtola's answer was cool enough that it's probably legit, Lyse's flustered response seems like the sort of, "Oh, no, he and I could never work out, and anyway there's someone else that likes him, not that I'm interested, really!" stuff that crops up in countless romcoms.

The story was cute, but honestly I when the invitation happed in the MSQ I hoped we would get a scene in game in a later patch.

Ladies gossiping? Say it ain't so!

/sarcasm

It's nice to know that the characters try to have lives outside of work. Would have been nice to be an in-game event, but given the conversation was on a highly subjective topic and we can't exactly enter dialogue, I understand why they didn't make it so.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

So, the girls of FFXIV drink tea and talk about boys. There goes our Bechdel rating!

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Damnit, you stole my words!

This story was... more like a response to shipping than an actual attempt at expanding on lore or fleshing out characters and telling us about events that we didn't witness.

What was the whole point of this one? It didn't exactly tell me anything I didn't already know, it didn't expand on any offscreen events or character development, it just... felt really out of place in the "Tales from" series.

And to add on the whole Lyse debate, I'm one of the many who didn't like the way she was handled either. My biggest issue with her is that she, and by extension the rest of the original Scions, spent a very long time lying to our face about her identity, for no adequately-explained reason. Back in 3.55, when I was given the dialogue options in reacting to her reveal, my choice was "Why didn't you ever tell me?", and her only response was, "I'm sorry. My name is Lyse," or something similar. I feel like this should've had more of an impact on the WoL's relationship with the rest of the Scions, at least, rather than having the story constantly try to tell us we're supposed to be friends with Lyse. Like... no, the WoL has had plenty of people lie to them, I don't think this is something that should be let go that easily.

Throughout SB, even as my character smiled and nodded at Lyse, I kept up a private roleplay of having all those smiles and nods be fake or sarcastic. Still can't stand her personally, even as I try to objectively analyse her journey through Stormblood as a character. It's funny to think that so far, I've enjoyed the gameplay and visuals of Stormblood, way more than the storyline and characters, which just felt ridiculously clunky.

Easiest example of that to bring up, is the way the twins were shunted in and out of the journey, with only the barest of handwaves to explain why. We're leaving Alphinaud behind in Kugane? Why? Because something something about he's better at record-keeping. 3-4 levels later, he turns up in Namai. And the reason why he decided to schlep over the Ruby Sea to join us is because...? Who cares. Castrum Abania: Whoops, Alisaie's been with us for too long and has been doing too much, better stab her and get her out of the story, lest she become important!

I guess I kind of understand why the focus would be taken away from the twins, but as someone who actively enjoys examining them and their relationship, watching them interact with each other throughout this expansion was so much more entertaining than watching the story try to peddle the crap that is the Lyse/WoL friendship.

Yeah, I'm not terribly interested in 'shipping' specific characters together and all the drama that tends to come with such things due to how unhinged some people can be when it comes to their favourite pairings. It was nice to get a few hints about potential characters that we might meet in the future but there's many more pressing matters to be outlined, I feel. Clearly enough time has passed for Ala Mhigo's and Doma's liberation to have been cemented and if the Scions are taking a break in Limsa Lominsa then it suggests that there hasn't been a counterattack by Garlemald.

Which is great, since it ties into my theory - and hope - that Varis does not share the previous Emperor's desire for conquest and as such there will be room for diplomacy and mutually beneficial alliances later down the line. All the same, though, it feels a bit off for things to be so calm. Is Lyse truly going to be the face of Ala Mhigo? If so, is she going to go virtually unchallenged? Plenty of Ala Mhigans spent every day of their lives fighting for freedom, Lyse was off running about elsewhere and spent a very tiny portion of her life in the region. Surely there would be an element of bitterness if she literally just swoops in, rides largely on the coattails of the Warrior of Light and rises to prominence thanks to Conrad's demise, Meffrid's demise and her being the daughter of some prominent Resistance fighter.

I really hope Hien's story doesn't involve Cirina fawning over him or vice versa.

There's only going to be four stories in total. There's so many characters that we could catch up with or be given a look at their perspective. A story of Varis' mourning of Regula would be a great way to get further insight to his character. It could even go deeper into exploring his thoughts upon his son and heir. Heck, there could even be a story from Elidibus' perspective to give his thoughts on the matter of the Warriors of Darkness and Ilberd. What does he feel as a result of their actions? Does he consider them failures or successes?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

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I think the idea was to have a story which is just a scene of characters we know just relaxing and being friends. In a way it makes them more normal and human which is something we rarely get to have presented in game. Not every story has to have a big reveal of vital information. That is what I liked about this. It was just a story of friends who do extraordinary things coming together for a moment of relaxation and normality.

For the WoL, Lyse's name reveal wouldn't have been a major thing. It's like if you had a friend you had known and worked with for a while who said "actually, my name is George.". It might be weird for them to have lied about it but it didn't change anything about who they were. We have never known Yda. Ever. Even those who played 1.X would have been dealing with Lyse outside the Echo visions. If the WoL was a friend of 'Yda' then they would be a friend of Lyse. At least Lyse's reasons made some sense even if they were a little foolish.

Honestly I think you missed several details. Alisaie needed Alphinaud's help to add the Domans organising their resistance push as well as repairing their Aetheryte. She couldn't do it on her own. Plus Alphinaud is the planner. He stayed behind before because Alphinaud is better at diplomacy and logistics and Kugane was our only potential source of additional resources and info. Lyse took up her sister's name and mask, in a sense out of grief after her sister had died as a way to try and keep her dream alive and partially because she felt insufficient to do it herself as Lyse. She is often shown feeling like she isn't up to her sister or her father's level.

Its worth pointing out on the Garlemald front, one of the reasons Garlemald has been slow to react is because Doma and Ala Mhigo's liberation has sparked resurgent activity and talk in other provinces and the leadership is hesitant to move troops out of regions that might be at risk of an uprising to mobilise against Doma or Ala Mhigo. Its unlikely Varis would ignore it completely as it would likely hurt him politically to allow provinces to rebel without any response. This is be basis for Hein's current defensive strategy and Doma's shinobi are actively encouraging such unrest in other provinces.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Honestly I think you missed several details. Alisaie needed Alphinaud's help to add the Domans organising their resistance push as well as repairing their Aetheryte. She couldn't do it on her own. Plus Alphinaud is the planner. He stayed behind before because Alphinaud is better at diplomacy and logistics and Kugane was our only potential source of additional resources and info.

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I'm not wondering why the writers decided to shunt Alphinaud right into Namai for whatever he ended up doing, I'm wondering what in-story catalyst drove Alphinaud out of Kugane to Namai. Nobody mentions anything about contacting him, and whatever he ended up doing in Kugane while we were going swimming, none of it ever affected the plot after that, or was even mentioned.

I also don't really care about Lyse's reasons for taking up her sister's name, I'm just saying that having her lie to us for any reason whatsoever, especially about something as important as her identity, and then having the story try to sell us as friends, is a little incongruous in my opinion.

Alisaie literally argues with Alphinaud on why he should stay in Kugane in the MSQ. As for why he comes to Namei, Alisaie comments on it if you talk to her when you first visit the Doman Revolutionary Front. Alphinaud is an organiser and planner. Once we had established contact his skills became necessary.

Seemed like a pretty unimportant lie, particularly since she gives her reasons for it. Are you saying the WoL wasn't a friend of 'Yda' prior to the reveal? Its the same person. Its not like she suddenly became someone else.

The thing is, 'Yda' spent far less time with the Warrior of Light than the other major Scions, barring Papalymo. I recall there being a dialogue option that pointed out the lie in question but it's a rather bizarre thing to do and the fact that the rest of the Scions went along with it is a bit worrying. Even assuming that the Warrior of Light and Lyse are good friends, realistically lies are often what lead to even strong friendships being destroyed.

I'm not sure I'd count pretending to be one's dead sibling as an 'unimportant lie', though.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Alisaie literally argues with Alphinaud on why he should stay in Kugane in the MSQ. As for why he comes to Namei, Alisaie comments on it if you talk to her when you first visit the Doman Revolutionary Front. Alphinaud is an organiser and planner. Once we had established contact his skills became necessary.

Seemed like a pretty unimportant lie, particularly since she gives her reasons for it. Are you saying the WoL wasn't a friend of 'Yda' prior to the reveal? Its the same person. Its not like she suddenly became someone else.

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You're missing my point. I'm asking how and why exactly, in-story, Alphinaud came to Namai. Did we call him? Nobody ever mentions contacting him, he just springs up directly after we tried to assassinate Zenos. What made him decide to leave Kugane and come after us in the first place? The writers don't even bother to explain any of that. The reasons behind why Alphinaud stayed behind might have been more convincing if, again, he actually did anything while in Kugane that was worth mentioning later on. When Tataru stayed behind in Ishgard, back in 3.0, her actions during that time had a direct and meaningful impact on the plot, later on, with the information she gathered and the connections she made. They tried to give the same explanation for Alphinaud, but failed to provide any consequences for him staying behind, making it all look like a lazy reason to not have him along for the Ruby Sea Ride.

Also, I really do not understand how lying about your identity is an 'unimportant lie'. Maybe it's the same person, but she was still lying to us, which is generally not something that friends are supposed to do. I never said the WoL wasn't friends with Yda, but if they were friends, it'd be pretty crappy of Lyse to knowingly and directly lie to the WoL's face for however long they've known each other.

And going on from that, I'd love to see more personal consequences for Lyse masquerading as Yda for so long. Surely Yda had more friends outside of the Scions. What if one of the people who'd known her personally before her death, came to see her and found out that Lyse had been pretending to be her for over half a decade? "Upset" wouldn't even begin to describe my reaction to that if I were in that person's shoes.

Actually, when talking to Alisae inside the House of the Fierce she mentions they could repair the aetheryte crystal there, but that'd be more Alphinaud's field and she'd contact him about it.

On the one hand, Lyse pretending to be Yda for several years is deeply unhealthy and probably the sort of thing that should have been handled by some sort of emotional support network.

On the other hand, we've long established that the Scions in general are really stupid when it comes to handling mental and emotional trauma. Their default response is "we'll just work harder to take our minds off it". Their non-default responses are even worse. (What was the reasoning given behind Urianger's creation of the Wind-Up Moenbryda minion?)

So while it should be a major deal in our RL context, it is sadly completely in-character for the Scions, Lyse, and everyone involved.

I agree that lying to us if we are somehow friends is not great but I never saw her as a friend anyway thus the whole reveal kinda was like "...so whats the point?" SE missed making me care more about Papalymo or Yda since they were not that much in the story before SB.

After thinking more about the new story I am kinda not sure why they choose that one. We only have four of them and lots of people that they could have written about. They could have used that scene ingame. I mean we more than enough had scenes where the WoL was not there yet we got to see them so they could have used it that way to show us their talk and after that we could have a small scene with the WoL joining them. I mean the story itself is really cute in a way and nice to just see them relaxing a bit but still I now agree with some posters: We learned nothing new other than just some shipping rumors.

I'm actually glad if this scene doesn't make it ingame. Feels way too fanfiction-y. (Is it just me or do those screenshots look very lazily made, too? Like... I could make more interesting screenshots with image editing...)

Not every story or every snippet has to hold important or new information. Rather, if your world building you want the opposite occasionally. It creates a sense of normality and immersion. This is why the Postmoogle quests are some of my favorate. Plenty of them have unimportant or trivial lore and often its not particularly new but it presents characters and situations on a small scale that makes the world at large feel more alive.

We almost never see the Scions in a situation where they aren't working. That is part of what I like about this. Its one of the few times we see important central characters kick back and let their hair down and just chat. As characters it makes them more like people living in a world and less like just plot devices.

In truth, these short stories have never given us a great deal of new information. Most have just been moments in characters lives that help show another view of the character or event.

I actually really like stories which explore what characters do in their downtime, like this one. No major revelations, no unexpected twists, no explosive action. Just people talking to each other, being people.

I mean, I recall one of the more popular reveals from the lorebook was that Aymeric liked birch syrup in his morning tea. Close behind was the fact that Aymeric tried teaching Lucia his original recipe for dodo omelettes, but Lucia still has no interest in cooking.

Nothing there is relevant to the story. There is no hidden meaning behind the dodo omelettes. But such pieces of trivia are still popular, because they are one more tidbit in favour of these characters being people, rather than plot devices.

The Scions having a day out at a cake patisserie and spending their time gossiping is exactly the sort of thing I want. I do understand the concerns, since we don't have an unlimited number of story slots to tell all the stories that need telling. But I try to think of these stories as bonuses, rather than limited offerings. And if I were to get bonuses, I'd be happy with stories such as these, with nothing but idle chatter.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I actually really like stories which explore what characters do in their downtime, like this one. No major revelations, no unexpected twists, no explosive action. Just people talking to each other, being people.

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I can let go of the fact that this one was mainly banal conversation, but... did it have to be a bunch of girls talking about the men in their lives? Don't they honestly have any other topic to talk about? How about having Alisaie complain about Tataru not giving her pants, in Ishgard, no less? Have Lyse raise concerns that Tataru forgot her shirt. Anything that could've let us pass the Bechdel test on this one.

Because FF XIV's female characters have honestly not been treated very well, and I would like to kind of see that maybe change a little.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

I can let go of the fact that this one was mainly banal conversation, but... did it have to be a bunch of girls talking about the men in their lives? Don't they honestly have any other topic to talk about? How about having Alisaie complain about Tataru not giving her pants, in Ishgard, no less? Have Lyse raise concerns that Tataru forgot her shirt. Anything that could've let us pass the Bechdel test on this one.

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The Bechdel Test doesn't require women to never, ever discuss men ever. Just that they discuss other things besides men, which they do pretty much everywhere else but here. This story doesn't exist in a vacuum.

(Besides, this does pass it. They discuss Lyse's work rebuilding Ala Mhigo and they discuss Alisaie trying to live up to the WoL, who in a lot of play-throughs is a woman.)

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Originally Posted by FJerome

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The Bechdel Test, at its most basic, requires at least 2 women to have one single conversation that does not mention a man. That is it at its core. This story doesn't pass it. It is one continuous conversation that keeps leading back to a topic concerning a man. Lyse's work ends up involving a man. The WoL being male or female doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

The WoL being male or female doesn't count.

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Uh... huh? Why not? Just because you said so?

Because women would never discuss potential romantic prospects over a relaxing meal....

Look, the women in FF14 are plenty active and competent. Y'shtola and Merlwyb in particular. Discussions on relationships almost never happen. We almost always only see talk of work. If all they ever talked about was guys then yeah sure, this would be a bit on the nose.

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Originally Posted by Keever

Uh... huh? Why not? Just because you said so?

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This is a moot point because the story already fails the Bechdel Test regardless of the WoL's gender, but by nature, any conversation involving the WoL would be impossible to apply the Bechdel Test to. Because for every person who wants to claim the WoL is canonically male, there's another who would claim the opposite. And they would both be right. So to save us all time and sanity, we should just cut out all references to the WoL when applying the Bechdel Test.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Because women would never discuss potential romantic prospects over a relaxing meal....

Look, the women in FF14 are plenty active and competent. Y'shtola and Merlwyb in particular. Discussions on relationships almost never happen. We almost always only see talk of work. If all they ever talked about was guys then yeah sure, this would be a bit on the nose.

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So why can't they discuss other things and not bring romance into it at all? Contrary to what most men may believe, romance does not have to play a major or even minor role in a woman's life. And I don't think we really need to see them discussing their relationships, because their relationships with these men are shown in-game already.

What I'm going to ask here is: Why are these female characters apparently so defined by their relationships to men, that even the most banal conversations between them eventually swing back to revolving around men?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

What I'm going to ask here is: Why are these female characters apparently so defined by their relationships to men, that even the most banal conversations between them eventually swing back to revolving around men?

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We are nearly 7 years in since the launch of the original game and to my knowledge this is the first time we've ever seen a scene like this? This is specifically a moment they're set aside to relax and take a breather, why wouldn't they make chit-chat about romance? They talk about weightier matters too but even if they didn't, it doesn't invalidate them as strong and serious characters that they may have some opposite-sex romantic interest and also talk about close male relatives sometimes?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

So why can't they discuss other things and not bring romance into it at all? Contrary to what most men may believe, romance does not have to play a major or even minor role in a woman's life. And I don't think we really need to see them discussing their relationships, because their relationships with these men are shown in-game already.

What I'm going to ask here is: Why are these female characters apparently so defined by their relationships to men, that even the most banal conversations between them eventually swing back to revolving around men?

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Frankly, if you think that these characters are so defined by their relationships with men then you have paid almost no attention to their development in game. We have seen in detail how these women define themselves and all three are strong, independent and competent. The only one of the three that is defined at all by a male is Alaesie and her brother is as defined by his relationship to her as vice versa.

Are you seriously saying that a group of friends kicking back and relaxing will never talk about personal romantic relationships? That romantic relationships are a minor role in peoples lives? I don't now about you but most people I know of any gender consider things like that pretty important.

Look, if this was all that they would talk about fine. But its just a couple of friends chatting and things like this we rarely see them talk about. We are almost always discussing the fate of the realm. That really isn't relaxing talk to have over drinks. Further how are their relationships with these men shown in game. We haven't even met the guy Lyse mentioned. You act like they spend their whole time talking about relationships.

Because one conversation centered around romantic prospects between women at any point in any piece of fiction is an absolute travesty.

/sarcasm

As a schizoid, I don't really care for the romantic discussion either. That said I still appreciate it because it shows the characters at least trying to have a life outside of their jobs. This is literally the first time we've ever seen any of the characters in question discuss romance. There are also plenty of other conversations between women and women alone that have nothing to do with men, such as a conversation between Merlwyb, Kan-E-Senna, and Nanamo sometime during 2.x (2.4, if I remember right) about politics. I don't see the need for getting so worked up over this short story.

I liked this story because it was mostly fluff; nothing really new (sure we'll be introduced to this man Lyse talks about in 4.1), nothing terribly important, just the girls talking and relaxing.

Its a nice change of pace, and shows that they aren't 100% about their work. Which is really nice to see.

I hope Lyse haters can read this story.

Call me cynical but I think our unnamed historian does not think very highly of Lyse. If he really were crushing on her he'd be trying to avoid her gaze instead of looking right past her and that even Lyse has picked up on this habit of his implies that he's not attempting to hide his feelings.

In any case I reckon someone who knows the ins and outs of the political landscape of Gyr Abania is going to become a key player in the future. I hope we'll be seeing him in the MSQ soon.

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

Call me cynical but I think our unnamed historian does not think very highly of Lyse. If he really were crushing on her he'd be trying to avoid her gaze instead of looking right past her and that even Lyse has picked up on this habit of his implies that he's not attempting to hide his feelings.

In any case I reckon someone who knows the ins and outs of the political landscape of Gyr Abania is going to become a key player in the future. I hope we'll be seeing him in the MSQ soon.

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Calling it now: it's Erik. ;)

Being a strong female character and being defined solely by their relationships with male characters is not mutually exclusive. Lyse is given an automatic boost to commander of the Resistance because of who her father was, even considering that she doesn't have that many great leadership qualities. I don't think Minfilia was a very well-written character, but I'll still say that she was a better leader than I expect Lyse will be.

Yes, I am seriously saying that there are women who chat at length about things that have nothing to do with romance. Here's a short summary of things I've talked about recently with one of my female friends:

- Wholemeal cinnamon rolls are a terrible lie.
- Never buy gluten-free cake, especially at $6 a slice.
- NieR: Automata sure looks awesome, but it sucks that we can't afford it at $100+ on Steam.
- Awful customers at our past/present jobs.
- University applications.

Note how none of that even remotely involved romantic prospects, because we couldn't care less about it if we were paid to do so. There are plenty of things they could've talked about, without defaulting to romance.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Yes, I am seriously saying that there are women who chat at length about things that have nothing to do with romance.

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Real people acknowledge this because they don't live in pieces of fiction.

I and several other people have pointed out this is literally the first time the characters in question have discussed romance ever. I acknowledge there was no need for them to do so and there are a great many other things they could have discussed, but what was so wrong about the topic drifting to romance?

I frankly did not see a problem with the topic of romance popping up, it was only towards the end and it seemed more sideline gossip than an obsessive focus.

Y'shtola sees herself as eldest and made a comment based on experience that the young lad who Lyse was referring to was likely smitten with her. Caught off guard, Lyse thought to interjrect some speculation as to Y'shtola's own interests and this then prompted a flashback for her regarding her sister Y'mhitra (the same npc involved in the Summoner storyline).

It does seem kind of odd that Y'shtola's younger sister would be trying to suggest she find someone to date or possibly settle down with while she is recovering. Or maybe not, having a family life would prevent people from rushing to the front lines to get cut down by Garlean Royalty - at least on a regular basis.

Though considering the abruptness of this plot point it did make me wonder if Square was laying the groundwork for something in the way of story development. And yes, call me sad, I did think this was a possible segue to the Warrior of Light being able to romance an npc like Y'shtola or Thancred. This seems stupid... at first. Then we look at Star Wars The Old Republic MMO where Bioware Romances among companion npc are pretty common (especially marriage). Players can already marry other players in the game, but this costs money for the ceremony. And this is a story driven game, one seemingly bereft of player input otherwise. From a marketing perspective, romance would simply be another angle for players to feel invested in the story so they keep playing and keep paying. That said, this theory has little life because the game was not built for such interaction from the beginning like TOR, it would complicate future story-telling because you can't threaten to kill off romantic interests for the players, and in the end it likely wouldn't be worth tacking onto a Final Fantasy game.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Thancred x Y'shtola... the ship that sank even before it sailed. And, no, she doesn't think of the WoL that way either. ;)

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She could, so could he. But again, this is Square Enix and not Bioware. I think they know better.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

what was so wrong about the topic drifting to romance?

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Because it's irritating as all hell that people believe that all small talk between women should involve or default to romance. Let me ask the opposite question: why did the topic have to drift to romance? Why couldn't they have stayed away from it?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Because it's irritating as all hell that people believe that all small talk between women should involve or default to romance. Let me ask the opposite question: why did the topic have to drift to romance? Why couldn't they have stayed away from it?

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Nobody has stated that all small talk between women should involve or default to romance. (Well, someone might have, but that's not correct.)

There was no reason it had to drift to romance and there was no reason they could not have stayed away from it. Whether you personally like it or not, sometimes things go that way. This is one time in years' worth of content, not a constant companion. Why so serious?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Being a strong female character and being defined solely by their relationships with male characters is not mutually exclusive. Lyse is given an automatic boost to commander of the Resistance because of who her father was, even considering that she doesn't have that many great leadership qualities. I don't think Minfilia was a very well-written character, but I'll still say that she was a better leader than I expect Lyse will be.

Yes, I am seriously saying that there are women who chat at length about things that have nothing to do with romance. Here's a short summary of things I've talked about recently with one of my female friends:

- Wholemeal cinnamon rolls are a terrible lie.
- Never buy gluten-free cake, especially at $6 a slice.
- NieR: Automata sure looks awesome, but it sucks that we can't afford it at $100+ on Steam.
- Awful customers at our past/present jobs.
- University applications.

Note how none of that even remotely involved romantic prospects, because we couldn't care less about it if we were paid to do so. There are plenty of things they could've talked about, without defaulting to romance.

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Conrad specifically states that the reason he picked Lyse wasn't due to her father but due to the fact that with such a massively diverse group of people involved in the fight for Ala Mhigo, it required someone who could both appeal to and understand the viewpoint of a very broad range of individuals and inspire them to follow her vision. Conrad specifically gives you a quest to go talk to people to show you this right before mentioning he is thinking about Lyse. Lyse isn't hugely smart but she is capable of delegating and most importantly she is a figurehead who's only agenda is to build an Ala Mhigo inclusive of everyone. She doesn't need to be smart. She just needs to know who to ask for advice, who to put in charge of what and be able to convince people to follow her goals. In fact a good part of Lyse's story is that she is her own person, capable as herself, rather than just her father's daughter and her sister's sister.

Secondly my comment wasn't that women always talk about romance but that they occasionally do. Frankly I think everyone discusses their relationships to some extent from time to time, if only to vent. Lets be clear here. This is by far not all these women talk about. We almost never here them talking about relationships. More to the point its not all they talk about. You talk like relationships are a taboo topic that people must avoid.

Out of curiosity, what would you have them talk about? The weather? The food? Complaining about dumb book cataloguing systems? Poor toiletry facilities in Rhalgr's Reach? The impractical nature of spiky armour?

Honestly I think your projecting a bit here. You seem to be the only one making the assumption this is all they talk about, that this is somehow the encompassing defining of their characters. Characters as with people can have relationships without it robbing them of independence of identity or self definition. Y'shtola and Lyse are frankly far more defined by their relationships with their mentor and their sister respectively than any of the male characters and even then they stand on their own pretty well.

To be honest this is probably not the forum for discussing the intent or effect of the writer having the characters discuss romance since it fundamentally isn't really a lore issue so I will drop the subject and agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

You talk like relationships are a taboo topic that people must avoid.

Out of curiosity, what would you have them talk about? The weather? The food? Complaining about dumb book cataloguing systems? Poor toiletry facilities in Rhalgr's Reach? The impractical nature of spiky armour?

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I have no idea where or how you're getting this impression from what I wrote. I simply find it irritating that when trying to write a simple conversation between various female characters, the writer of this story apparently decided that it would be a good idea to throw romance in there. It is especially irritating because these female characters are otherwise not that well-written. See the entire mess with Lyse.

I gave some suggestions myself of what else they could've talked about in one of my previous posts:

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Don't they honestly have any other topic to talk about? How about having Alisaie complain about Tataru not giving her pants, in Ishgard, no less? Have Lyse raise concerns that Tataru forgot her shirt.

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Maybe they could've discussed some in-universe books or plays they've read/seen, which could've served as a method of world-building, however minor. It could also have served as a better way to cement their friendship, by showing that they have common interests. Hell, bring some festival into it; the Moonfire Faire's going on right now. There was so much potential that this story had, and in the end it was thrown away on meaningless shipping speculation. It could've been so much better, and yet it fell short due to laziness.

I suspect some of the disconnect here is due to differing standpoints.

In media involving FFXIV, this is the first time the female characters in the Scions are talking about romance.

In media in general, a disproportionate number of conversations between female characters are about romance.

So are we judging this story based on FFXIV, or based on general media?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Damnit, you stole my words!

This story was... more like a response to shipping than an actual attempt at expanding on lore or fleshing out characters and telling us about events that we didn't witness.

What was the whole point of this one? It didn't exactly tell me anything I didn't already know, it didn't expand on any offscreen events or character development, it just... felt really out of place in the "Tales from" series.

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Agreed, wholeheartedly. I've liked some of the stories more than others, but this is the first one that's been genuinely disappointing. The structure felt choppy and disjointed, and it just didn't work for me.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This is literally the first time we've ever seen any of the characters in question discuss romance. There are also plenty of other conversations between women and women alone that have nothing to do with men, such as a conversation between Merlwyb, Kan-E-Senna, and Nanamo sometime during 2.x (2.4, if I remember right) about politics. I don't see the need for getting so worked up over this short story.

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I'm not particularly "worked up" about it, but I did roll my eyes, because of course the story that has all the women together has them gossiping about guys. I mean, if my sister had almost died, the first thing I'd think of saying to her is that she should hook up with someone. And of course, if someone says "this made me uncomfortable", then they're getting "worked up". Hysterical, even.