Instant-gratification, and the "Time Sink Here, Time Sink There" song. VERY LONG

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

I got it now.

OP will wait till post 1.000 to deliver the actual song, asking for it before that point would be wishing for instant gratification

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/smile

Rutelor

Yes yes SE can do no wrong we get it.

i agree with the op, he saying what i been tossing around the forums for like a year. this mmo by 2.0 needs to turn it's cheek back to what ffxi was prior to abysea or it's a game that in 6-12months will be at like 4servers tops.

difficulty or not, it needs more sinks, all mmo's for crying out loud needs to add caps to everything. i'm so sick of rank 30's in groups for a rank 20difficutly fight. i been playing swtor past week and that is all it is. no caps, you can pretty much get a person who can solo the dam thing in your party running threw it like nothing. or you can take the time to do it right or hope the group is pretty equal. but wtf for, why not add a cap and say this is what levels you need be for this type of difficulty.

theres a line drawn in making a game to hard for new players to get to where others are and waaaay to easy. this game it's simple as it stands your paying a monthly for your cash shop. that is all this game is, a 12dollar a month cash shop that hands you your gear and your levels. if by 2.0 people can still pl the way it is, this game has no chance in frigin hell.

don't like time sinks, then mmo's not the game for you. they were punting around a football analogy in first page, but it's simple if football had a random number after each score to calculate a real score then that is what football is. when you change it then it's not football no more it's something else. don't try to call it a mmo then. call it what it is, a game for facebook rejects, or people who "never" used to play mmo's or games and need them to be easier now. those who "were" mmo'ers an want to ruin it for those who want or still want to put in that time. ehhh go buy an account and stop ruining mmo's, you still shouldn't feel any more or less like an mmo'er. least in a few years from now you won't be part of the group that killed mmo's. we get it lots of money to be made, but anyway.

2.0 needs to be what it needs to be, theres lot of people that think it needs the opposite but in a year or 2 we can all come back to these forums if they still exist and point and laugh and say i told you so. (but in either case i think we both lose, since ffxiv has great potential of being the best mmo if they just stop listening to people and wallets) but for now i'm convinced that no matter how many people there are that enjoy the easy life in mmo's that they are the reason they die out so quickly. your like the walmart that comes into a town and kills off all the small shops then leaves ...leaving behind a vast empty town to wither away what is left of those who stayed. that is all. ty lol.

tl,dr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJI1lCQJlGg
no thanks to the quick and easy game or buck..in game or out it's just a sad thing that needs not be. haters gonna hate. ...but who the hater is will always change so...whatevs.

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Originally Posted by Yves

There can be compromise. Just increase the difficulty in exchange with substantially better droprates. If the casuals really just want a more even playing field or better droprate then that will accommodate them. If not, then it's just QQ because it's too hard for them.

I'm in the middle of the road on the debate. The only area that I stand firm is when people just want an easier game. Some content should be easy, some should be challenging. How that challenge is created (droprate vs. difficulty) is where the sticking point should (be if true. ) So far, very few people are approaching it from that perspective.

I'm not going to lie and say that it wasn't a bummer beating Ifrit over 300 times but, at the same time, the feeling when I finally hit 7/7 was great.

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I don't object to difficulty per se.

I object to this mindset that the 'hardcore' types can decide, by their own authority, that a game 'should' be difficult and that anyone who disagrees is a spoiled brat who deserves to be verbally slapped, which is pretty much the point of the original post.

the bulk of your subs will be casuals and semi-hardcores. but the casual players frequently unsubscribe and/or take long breaks from the game. they also tend to not experience a very large percentage of what the game offers overall. the players logging in most and playing most and experiencing most of the content are the hardcores and semi-hardcores.

a developer has to try to walk a tightrope here, where they keep the casuals happy because it's the bulk of their subs, and they want to make money- but also keep the hardcores and semi-hardcores happy because those are the ones who are actually keeping the game alive by playing dedicatedly.

look at ffxi. i'm not saying this game should be a reskinned version of that game, but the point i'm making here is- that game isn't alive today because of casual players. it has a large base of semi/hardcore players that are still logging in frequently after all these years. and as long as these players get content which satisfies them, they will continue to log in until the servers shut down.

now look at WoW. after the announcement of the mists of pandaria expansion, they lost 800k subs. sure, 800k isn't too much compared to the 12 million subs you're still keeping- but it's still a MAJOR chunk of change. which players are those? predominantly the semi/hardcores, as they become more and more disenchanted with the casualification of the game since TBC. mists of pandaria was just a big "F- you" to them, so they did the only thing they could, and voted with their dollars.

for a long time WoW did a really excellent job of balancing content for casuals and semi/hardcores, and that played a major major role in their resounding success. they gave casuals stuff to do, but kept instances hard. heroics were hard. SSC/TK were hard. BT/Hyjal were hard.

and then the casuals cried and cried. fights were nerfed. the casuals cried more. attunements were completely removed. the casuals cried even more. current tier gear becomes available through simple dungeon grinding, rather than actually having to raid like before. it's been a gradual process ever since TBC where the game is moving more and more away from the hardcore player and more and more toward the casual player. this is upsetting the balance.

yes, they're still wildly successful. yes, they still have more subs than any other MMO by far. yes, marketing primarily to your largest demographic (casual players) is the most sensible business move.

but those players are NOT the founding pillars of your game community.

it's an inverted pyramid.

that's not to say you design content with ONLY the semi/hardcores in mind. absolutely not. in fact, you definitely need MORE content for the casuals. but it IS to say that the developer should NOT allow this to impact the content they're designing for the semi/hardcores.

if you water everything down in the game until its palatable to the casuals, you alienate the founding pillars of your game community and it begins to immediately decay.

so, tl;dr:

don't f**k up content designed to be difficult for us semi/hardcore players, because then we have NOTHING, and we move on to greener pastures looking for that challenge. without us, you have an entire game full of WoW barrens/trade chat. instead, leave our content alone and ask for more NEW content which is more pleasing to you.

period.

you generally don't hear us semi/hardcores crying about how easy quests or seasonal events or XPing or crafting/gathering are.

tl;dr #2: professional football players want to play in, and win, the superbowl, and only the best teams get the chance to compete for the trophy. it's stupid to water down the NFL and let every team have a crack at the championship even when they weren't good enough to make the playoffs in the first place. (and/or to completely change the rules to allow the worst teams a shot at winning)

don't make the cut for the superbowl? cool. that sucks. maybe instead of messing it up for those who do- you can ask for your own minor league championship, yeah?

From the start, we knew that this game was designed for both casuals and hardcores. I think people need to accept the fact that this game isn't designed for a single stereotype of gamers, it is designed for all. Telling people to leave the game and play something else will in no way help this game, since that is what most people already did. Look where we are now.

I will play this game no matter how easy/hard they make it. I love Final Fantasy for the immersive world and amazing storytelling, I can look up into the night sky and be awe struck at how much detail they put into such a small part of the game. The fact that this is an MMO is an added bonus. It is a shame that people get so upset when everything isn't designed specifically for them.

As a community of players, we need to accept the fact that not everyone will agree with our own opinions. We need to be willing to see certain features added that we might not agree with for the simple fact that those features we dislike are very much appreciated by another group of players. It's the golden rule. How can casual players accept hardcore content if hardcore players cant accept casual content? There needs to be some for everyone, because we knew from the start that this was a game designed for everyone. To reject that philosophy is to reject this game. And why are you playing it if you cannot accept the foundation on which this game was built?

It is time that both sides embraced each other, because both sides are here to stay. At the end of the day, the developers make the call on what is added and what gets changed. I, as a fan, trust that they will make the right decisions for the game.

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Originally Posted by fusional

the bulk of your subs will be casuals and semi-hardcores. but the casual players frequently unsubscribe and/or take long breaks from the game. they also tend to not experience a very large percentage of what the game offers overall. the players logging in most and playing most and experiencing most of the content are the hardcores and semi-hardcores.

a developer has to try to walk a tightrope here, where they keep the casuals happy because it's the bulk of their subs, and they want to make money- but also keep the hardcores and semi-hardcores happy because those are the ones who are actually keeping the game alive by playing dedicatedly.

look at ffxi. i'm not saying this game should be a reskinned version of that game, but the point i'm making here is- that game isn't alive today because of casual players. it has a large base of semi/hardcore players that are still logging in frequently after all these years. and as long as these players get content which satisfies them, they will continue to log in until the servers shut down.

now look at WoW. after the announcement of the mists of pandaria expansion, they lost 800k subs. sure, 800k isn't too much compared to the 12 million subs you're still keeping- but it's still a MAJOR chunk of change. which players are those? predominantly the semi/hardcores, as they become more and more disenchanted with the casualification of the game since TBC. mists of pandaria was just a big "F- you" to them, so they did the only thing they could, and voted with their dollars.

for a long time WoW did a really excellent job of balancing content for casuals and semi/hardcores, and that played a major major role in their resounding success. they gave casuals stuff to do, but kept instances hard. heroics were hard. SSC/TK were hard. BT/Hyjal were hard.

and then the casuals cried and cried. fights were nerfed. the casuals cried more. attunements were completely removed. the casuals cried even more. current tier gear becomes available through simple dungeon grinding, rather than actually having to raid like before. it's been a gradual process ever since TBC where the game is moving more and more away from the hardcore player and more and more toward the casual player. this is upsetting the balance.

yes, they're still wildly successful. yes, they still have more subs than any other MMO by far. yes, marketing primarily to your largest demographic (casual players) is the most sensible business move.

but those players are NOT the founding pillars of your game community.

it's an inverted pyramid.

that's not to say you design content with ONLY the semi/hardcores in mind. absolutely not. in fact, you definitely need MORE content for the casuals. but it IS to say that the developer should NOT allow this to impact the content they're designing for the semi/hardcores.

if you water everything down in the game until its palatable to the casuals, you alienate the founding pillars of your game community and it begins to immediately decay.

so, tl;dr:

don't f**k up content designed to be difficult for us semi/hardcore players, because then we have NOTHING, and we move on to greener pastures looking for that challenge. without us, you have an entire game full of WoW barrens/trade chat. instead, leave our content alone and ask for more NEW content which is more pleasing to you.

period.

you generally don't hear us semi/hardcores crying about how easy quests or seasonal events or XPing or crafting/gathering are.

tl;dr #2: professional football players want to play in, and win, the superbowl, and only the best teams get the chance to compete for the trophy. it's stupid to water down the NFL and let every team have a crack at the championship even when they weren't good enough to make the playoffs in the first place. (and/or to completely change the rules to allow the worst teams a shot at winning)

don't make the cut for the superbowl? cool. that sucks. maybe instead of messing it up for those who do- you can ask for your own minor league championship, yeah?

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This is exactly the attitude I was talking about.

It's all well and good to want to be the best, but you seem like you can't do that without sneering at those who fall short, especially if they fail to acknowledge your greatness or believe that the rules aren't necessarily fair.

Just ask yourself this, can you want yourself to be at the top of the heap without insulting everyone who doesn't fit into your view of a Brave New World of hardcore supremacy? Can you lobby to keep hard things hard without sounding like you just want to keep things out of reach so you can hold them over the heads of lesser players?

It's not that there aren't good players, bad players, and lazy players, but a kind word turns away wrath. Make your point without treating those you disagree with like they're garbage.

tl;dr - bads are people too.

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

This is exactly the attitude I was talking about.

It's all well and good to want to be the best, but you seem like you can't do that without sneering at those who fall short, especially if they fail to acknowledge your greatness or believe that the rules aren't necessarily fair.

Just ask yourself this, can you want yourself to be at the top of the heap without insulting everyone who doesn't fit into your view of a Brave New World of hardcore supremacy? Can you lobby to keep hard things hard without sounding like you just want to keep things out of reach so you can hold them over the heads of lesser players?

It's not that there aren't good players, bad players, and lazy players, but a kind word turns away wrath. Make your point without treating those you disagree with like they're garbage.

tl;dr - bads are people too.

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hard fights vs easy fights has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore and alot of people are misinformed about it

the general atttitude is those who play more feel they deserve more then anyone else and therefore those who dont play as much should be denied access and rewards

me, as someone who plays more then most people i know understand this but do not agree with it

there is a middle ground


a hard vs easy fight doesnt mean a casual cant beat it, sure itl be harder if they dont play as much to earn their skills, but its far beyond out of reach


time consuming achievements on the other hand require you to play alot, now while casuals may not have these as in reach, it can be a long term goal for them.

if something may require you to play for 50 hours, as a casual player with less time its up to you to determine if its worth it, however actualy in game content shouldnt require this(and it doesnt)
i dont feel achievemnts fall into content fyi


there are alot of casuals who want to be spoonfed
there are alot of hardcores who want to deny others of everything

we cant change that fact, but we can try our best to accomidate the majority which the above 2 streotypes do not generaly fall into

Okay, I'm just pointing out that part of the problem is on the hardcore side sounding full of themselves.

Also, some of you might be jumping to conclusions about me from my admittedly not well thought out post about the new armors.

Let me state here and now that I'm not even necessarily looking for easy AF armor. Even a plainer but still nice looking set that's within easy reach of all would be alright.

And again, it doesn't have to be good stats either. It's not like I'm asking to be given the masamune and the black materia here. I'm not asking to be made into Sephiroth easily. All I'm asking for is what every level 1 white mage in Final Fantasy 1 gets.

So yeah, that's where I stand.

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

Okay, I'm just pointing out that part of the problem is on the hardcore side sounding full of themselves.

Also, some of you might be jumping to conclusions about me from my admittedly not well thought out post about the new armors.

Let me state here and now that I'm not even necessarily looking for easy AF armor. Even a plainer but still nice looking set that's within easy reach of all would be alright.

And again, it doesn't have to be good stats either. It's not like I'm asking to be given the masamune and the black materia here. I'm not asking to be made into Sephiroth easily. All I'm asking for is what every level 1 white mage in Final Fantasy 1 gets.

So yeah, that's where I stand.

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just pointing out your opinion is obviously very biased based on the first line of what im quoting

trust me you dont want to take that atttitude as itl seperate people into arguing in your threads instead of getting good valid discussion going on as can be seen by several things in the past


lets not even look at the casual vs hardcore crowd(this debate usualy trends towards that when someone gets upset at peoples opinions which seem more on the aggressive towards one camp or the other side)


should AF armors be hard to get? no not too hard
should they be spoon fed? of course not

could perhaps a time sink go into them? well yes(nothing as abusive as the tier 5 gathering/crafting ones, but more along the lines of the tier 2 ones may be good, those take roughly 2 hours each to do).

is this punishing anyone by making it a timesink? of course not! not a that range.
hardcores who play more will get them faster, casuals who play less will get them without it taking forever while it still will require time.

To be fair, the whole point of the thread is to say that casuals are full of themselves to want it to be any easier, so I'm not saying anything they haven't said about us.

And my whole point is that I do want constructive discussion, which can't be had as long as they keep with that attitude as well.

So we are sort of in agreement, but don't put this on me, okay?

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

To be fair, the whole point of the thread is to say that casuals are full of themselves to want it to be any easier, so I'm not saying anything they haven't said about us.

And my whole point is that I do want constructive discussion, which can't be had as long as they keep with that attitude as well.

So we are sort of in agreement, but don't put this on me, okay?

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its both sides though

im about as hardcore as you can get, but i dont want the game to be catered to me.

both sides are pretty bad when it comes to the opinions the game is all about them and everything should be for them

Your post is hardly ever constructive - and that "lolcasuals" mentality that you have is the reason why FFXIV will remain a niche and unsuccessful game.

On top of that, you speak from a position that people want instant gratification. This is hardly the case. We want slightly higher droprates, not 100% droprates - speaking from positions of extremes make you no better than a sensationalist political columnist.

Just because people are asking for things to be a bit more tolerable does not mean that they want instant gratification in their games. Get your head out of your ass and realize that the world doesn't revolve around you and your tiny elitist group of "hardcore" players.

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Originally Posted by Bahn

Your post is hardly ever constructive - and that "lolcasuals" mentality that you have is the reason why FFXIV will remain a niche and unsuccessful game.

On top of that, you speak from a position that people want instant gratification. This is hardly the case. We want slightly higher droprates, not 100% droprates - speaking from positions of extremes make you no better than a sensationalist political columnist.

Just because people are asking for things to be a bit more tolerable does not mean that they want instant gratification in their games. Get your head out of your ass and realize that the world doesn't revolve around you and your tiny elitist group of "hardcore" players.

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yeah but they are going to make the one thing that probably gave players hope for 2.0 easier. the nm's prior to moogle fight had everything you kinda expect from a mmo after playing ffxi. challenging fun, party play with lots of nm's that took really a day for people to do. why dumb them down? people actually complained that it was too hard and ...lol so they are going to make it easier. it's a lot more then about drop rates. only good reason to listen and make it easier is server population ...hopefully it was the only reason and not a sign to what is coming in a year.

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Originally Posted by weeble

people actually complained that it was too hard and ...lol so they are going to make it easier

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Hard?

Nope. I see people complain mostly of two things:

1) The time it takes to get rewards from certain content greatly exceeds the point where doing said content is still fun and enjoyable.

2) SE doesn't take into account the fact that most of the players will take the path of least resistance when faced with a challenge. This results in class stacking (lack of) strategies being used and a good number of players having to choose between either leveling a job they don't care for all the way to level 50 or not doing those fights at all.

I just don't remember seeing many (any?) plainly "this is too hard" complaints.

One of the reasons why WoW was successful was because casuals got some kind of reward for their work. Was it the best gear in the game? not even close. To get the best gear you had to work your ass off for weeks or months doing heroic raids and you still had a somewhat small drop rate on your gear. I know a lot of people in here won't like this but the legendary weapons in WoW were a lot harder to get than the ones in FF11. If you don't agree you probably haven't played both games like i have.

I think the problem with Ifrit is that casuals aren't getting anything for their work and they are forced to turn hardcore just to get something.

I hate to be blunt, but the truth is not everyone is born equal. I can handle it. I'm not the best at everything in the world. Can you handle it?

I'm not trying to be mean. The differences in people are what make life exciting. Lets not encourage the developers into making a game that attempts to make all people the same. Lets let them know the best MMO in the world would exploit these differences.

Interesting post. ^^ Square has been making video games for a while and I'm sure a lot concerns are taken into account when they make their decisions, such as the drop rate for rare or semi-rare gear. A team of people design the primal fights from start to finish and I'm certain they would have tried to make it fair - at least, according to their calculations. The primal quests are a challenge and also a gamble. You are guaranteed a repeatable quest, some dark matter and coin upon successful completion. We know that weapons drop from the primal fights but there are no promises. Casual or not, by undertaking the primal fight you are offering to devote a chunk of your time in return for what is guaranteed and gamble for rare weapon drops. Not everyone wins when they gamble - some never win at all. Is it unfortunate that there are those who have no weapons even after a few hundred fights? Sure it is; however the next opportunity is always just a few key items away. This is not about hardcore or casual play. Any player who goes into a gamble expecting a certain outcome simply because that outcome exists as a slim possibility is playing with illusions. If nobody was getting weapons then yes, that would be a great cause for concern. Just because you or someone you know does not have a weapon from a primal fight does not mean the system is biased or unfair.

I understand that most players probably do want to get a rare weapon and have worked hard at it. Time and effort spent at attempts that result in no drops is frustrating but means little in a gamble. Yet the expectation seems to be there. The Grand Company items are examples of guaranteed rewards that people deserve with time and effort. The rare weapon drops in a primal fight, for better or worse, are not.

But we pay for this game, you say. We put in the time. We tolerate the shortcomings. We deserve a weapon! We are deserving.

For the primal fights, perhaps, such things do not (and should not?) matter.

I don't understand why people are comparing the Primal Weapons to any Legendary Weapons from any MMO, like in my last post they are hardly at that level (especially when Materia'd weapons are stronger than them. So the main point here should be: why are they so /random to obtain when they--comparatively--are not even the best of the best?

Honestly I wouldn't be against the idea of a "smart" reward drop list. Leave the rates as they are, but instead of being able to obtain multiple of the same weapon (since you cannot really obtain them again) have them ruled out of your potential drop list. Here is an example (Disclaimer: Percents are merely for demonstrative purposes and are not factual)

Player with no Ifrit Weapons:
7% LNC weapon
7% GLD weapon
7% ARC weapon
7% MRD weapon
7% PUG weapon
7% THM weapon
7% CNJ weapon
7% Totem
44% No drop

End of fight the player gets a CNJ weapon.
Next fight, player gets the win

7% LNC weapon
7% GLD weapon
7% ARC weapon
7% MRD weapon
7% PUG weapon
7% THM weapon
7% CNJ weapon RANDOM weapon not in inventory
7% Totem
44% No drop

Player obtains the THM weapon
Next fight next win

7% LNC weapon
7% GLD weapon
7% ARC weapon
7% MRD weapon
7% PUG weapon
7% THM weapon RANDOM weapon not in inventory
7% CNJ weapon RANDOM weapon not in inventory
7% Totem
44% No drop

So on and so forth, this way at least you would be making some kind of progress. Yes it does mean you would need to hold onto your weapons that you might not ever use, but at least it marks some kind of progress; it also leaves in the hardcore = random element that so many people don't want to lose, as you would have a 44% chance to get nothing, but at least IF you were to get something it wouldn't be something you already have.

I agree with that omega but ifrit weps are better than materia weps by far. atleast for melee

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Originally Posted by Big-Beach

But we pay for this game, you say. We put in the time. We tolerate the shortcomings. We deserve a weapon! We are deserving.

For the primal fights, perhaps, such things do not (and should not?) matter.

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/sigh could yet again make good points on why it matters both on short and long term but I'll just leave it at:

100% totem/nut drop rate per win.
First "bought" weapon is 10 totem/nut, second is 13, third 16, ..., 7th 28.
Random weapon drop rates stay the same.

Seems to me like the golden mean between slaving away only to keep getting kicked in the balls and getting all weapons for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

...creating the need for strategy, and cooperation, delayed satisfaction increases desire, and when satisfaction finally comes, it's ten times stronger if you feel you went through what feels like a decently proportionate struggle to achieve it. (Nobody is talking about anything resembling ridiculous levels, like Absulute Virtue did, BTW.)

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Sounds like you're talking about pacing there. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/episode-07-pacing

If you take a look in terms of pacing for casual and hardcore, the only difference you should see is just in the time it takes it achieve the climax of gratification and the size of gratification.

Since you didn't really refer to ANY particular aspect of the game, and just ranted and bashed on casual players, I'll just refer to repetitive aspect for some hardcore content of the game. Since there isn't really any particular "challenging" one time events in the game I've encountered yet. (Such as; no challenging mission bosses)

Now if you add the repetitive task you take to achieve a goal for most hardcore task in FFXIV, it starts as exciting at first, then becomes a routine until the huge spike of excitement when you finally obtain your goal.

Best analogy I can give (since Rutelor seem to love those) is lottery games. If you're new to buying instant lotto ticket games you might be intrigued at first. You get a small peak of excitement by winning 5 bucks back or 10 bucks. Then you fall into a habit of constantly buying them to attempt to win the grand prize. Obviously, this doesn't come easily, you'll eventually become jaded to the experience of winning small amounts until you don't even care anymore about the experience you're taking. Your sights are only set to winning the grand prize, which is what it usually is for hardcore players aiming to fit that 4th materia into an item, or pulling off HQ, repetitively killing an NM for the item you want, or repetitively clearing a dungeon for an item you want.

Now, is it wrong to have that experience exist in FFXIV? No. Although, some design choices made makes it feel like effort is wasted, mainly from the Ifrit's loot system (the old system). It's like winning the lotto, but realizing you can't use the money and can't give it away to charity. Instead you just burn it.

However, the repetitiveness is designed for a particular set of hardcore players, which shouldn't be changed. Instead, there should just be other content for varying types of players to take if they do not wish to obtain the 'bestest item evar' in the game, which they are.

How about this for a loot system? Keep the drop rate the same to appease the rare drops are rare folks but.....when said weapon or totem drop let it mirror drop to all involved which would reward said effort. That way successful run everyone goes home happy. If nothing drops then nothing drops. Is that cool? Btw still trying to see what a win looks like on ifrit lol but I had fun each time as I am learning more and more about strategy. I went from dying multiple times during the loss to only dying once tank died in one and only wipe. I count that as progress hhahaahh. Strangely, I am having fun.

I love you OP.




nohomo




I do also agree with Zuellni's post as well. Most of the problem right now is because whomever designed XIV's loot system must have the experience of a blind monkey. It's so barely functional it borders funny, if it wasn't so frustrating. It's not even so much the drop rate I mind. I spend over 100 hours farming valkurm emperor in FFXI for that stupid hairpin. I'm used to it. At least give us some damn loot controls so the same asshole doesn't get his 5th ifrit club/whatever while the conjurer/whatever who's spent a retarded amount of time is left grinding his teeth. Totems are a fine idea if they actually dropped enough to matter but whatever. At least put in some sore of lotting system

agreed 100% go Rute!

You want room sevice also rut :P

I bet the OP has that crown thingie and all jobs at 50 already. And feels that cuz he worked so hard to get them, everyone else, especially new players should have to "grind" it out.

Go Rute go!! 100% agree :P

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Originally Posted by weeble

2.0 needs to be what it needs to be, theres lot of people that think it needs the opposite but in a year or 2 we can all come back to these forums if they still exist and point and laugh and say i told you so. (but in either case i think we both lose, since ffxiv has great potential of being the best mmo if they just stop listening to people and wallets) but for now i'm convinced that no matter how many people there are that enjoy the easy life in mmo's that they are the reason they die out so quickly. your like the walmart that comes into a town and kills off all the small shops then leaves ...leaving behind a vast empty town to wither away what is left of those who stayed. that is all. ty lol.

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Awesome and most likely true!! Thanks for the laugh. :D

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Yes!

That's why FFXI's endgame worked was because sky linkshells and the like made points that you EARNED. With FFXIV's current system, someone who wins the fight once while dead and afk has an equal chance of the same reward of someone who collects 1o totems.

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Skipped reading the 11 pages to reply to this instead.

I played FFXI for 7 years starting at American release. I've always, always had deep, seething anger for that system. Join an endgame shell, be on a probationary period for a month (no lots, pass on everything), make it to full member and join a queue of lotting priorities for an item that may or (mostly) may not drop, on the run that they are doing this week. Probably nothing useful for you there anyhow.

Excuse my language....

FUCKING. STUPID.

I understand how and why it works the way it does. Kudos to whatever asshole couldn't mediate with his members, or maybe just didn't care and wanted the priority, that came up with that system. It stuck. Hard. Suddenly it was 'the way.'

I like FFXIV's lot system. Could be better, but hey, that's where the players come in. Come up with our own systems.

This new system works great. Hey! You showed up. You did the work. It dropped for you! Congratulations, friend!!! Do you need it?

[ ] Yes. Thanks! Can't wait until we get your drop!

[ ] No. Who wants it? Oh, more than one. Lots, please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrekeLamorte

I like FFXIV's lot system. Could be better, but hey, that's where the players come in. Come up with our own systems.

This new system works great. Hey! You showed up. You did the work. It dropped for you! Congratulations, friend!!! Do you need it?

[ ] Yes. Thanks! Can't wait until we get your drop!

[ ] No. Who wants it? Oh, more than one. Lots, please.

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Here's a [Flame Shield] with +10 troll resistance. You might be needing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahn

Your post is hardly ever constructive - and that "lolcasuals" mentality that you have is the reason why FFXIV will remain a niche and unsuccessful game.

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/equip oh Flame Shield

Let's look at your comment objectively.

You clearly hate the 'lolcasuals' mentality. We both agree it's destructive communication. So why do you insist on commenting in a retaliatory manner. 'stfuhardcore' isn't any better.

Also, on a completely related note, please look at the bolded section. Have you ever even heard of FFXI? Better yet, have you ever even heard of 'lolFFIAmericaneasymode.' JP play differently then we do. They WANT a time-sink. They WANT difficulty and working really hard for their rewards. Now it's mostly a cultural difference on a higher level than the individual, but that's not to say there are some who dislike it. Just like there's many in America who LOVE it.

For SE to listen to all this "Make it harder! What am I paying for!?" and "It's too damn hard! I don't have time for this SH-." Well... Suffice to say, it's petty.

I'm not saying don't express your concerns about things, or stop providing constructive feedback. What I'm saying is, try to remember why these forums exist. To communicate with other players about the development process. When you start fighting about who this game is for, you make yourself look very, very misinformed.

At this point, the bare-bones of this game (character renders, general concept, etc.) are the only things 2.0 will have in common. Sure we see a little bit of the future with each patch, but as they slow down and listen to us post-patch, we start to lose focus of the fact that, it doesn't matter. None of this will be relevant in 2.0. If you want to stay on, and p2p this game for the rest of it's life, do it to it. Just keep in mind, the things you should be commenting on, is the distant future 2.0. Whatever may come each patch now, SE wants us to give them an idea of what we'd like to see in the final product.

I know that many would see this in a way that means I'm saying that we should just play this game in all of it's craptastrophe along the way and just take it with a grain of salt. You may be right. Either way, stop fighting each other. You won't get everything you want in this game, fact. So unify your opinions, and express them loud. If you disagree with the current proposal, make a new thread, formulate a postulate, and share it with everyone. Maybe your idea is the right of it, but just hasn't been expressed articulately enough yet.



PS: Completely forgot to mention that I mostly agree with the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrekeLamorte

/equip oh Flame Shield

Let's look at your comment objectively.

You clearly hate the 'lolcasuals' mentality. We both agree it's destructive communication. So why do you insist on commenting in a retaliatory manner. 'stfuhardcore' isn't any better.

Also, on a completely related note, please look at the bolded section. Have you ever even heard of FFXI? Better yet, have you ever even heard of 'lolFFIAmericaneasymode.' JP play differently then we do. They WANT a time-sink. They WANT difficulty and working really hard for their rewards. Now it's mostly a cultural difference on a higher level than the individual, but that's not to say there are some who dislike it. Just like there's many in America who LOVE it.

For SE to listen to all this "Make it harder! What am I paying for!?" and "It's too damn hard! I don't have time for this SH-." Well... Suffice to say, it's petty.

I'm not saying don't express your concerns about things, or stop providing constructive feedback. What I'm saying is, try to remember why these forums exist. To communicate with other players about the development process. When you start fighting about who this game is for, you make yourself look very, very misinformed.

At this point, the bare-bones of this game (character renders, general concept, etc.) are the only things 2.0 will have in common. Sure we see a little bit of the future with each patch, but as they slow down and listen to us post-patch, we start to lose focus of the fact that, it doesn't matter. None of this will be relevant in 2.0. If you want to stay on, and p2p this game for the rest of it's life, do it to it. Just keep in mind, the things you should be commenting on, is the distant future 2.0. Whatever may come each patch now, SE wants us to give them an idea of what we'd like to see in the final product.

I know that many would see this in a way that means I'm saying that we should just play this game in all of it's craptastrophe along the way and just take it with a grain of salt. You may be right. Either way, stop fighting each other. You won't get everything you want in this game, fact. So unify your opinions, and express them loud. If you disagree with the current proposal, make a new thread, formulate a postulate, and share it with everyone. Maybe your idea is the right of it, but just hasn't been expressed articulately enough yet.

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Give this man a medal, he thoroughly deserves it! Adequately summed up and eloquently posted what I was too lazy to type out. Thumbs up for you sir.

A shame really...OP posts an extremely accurate assessment of this community, and we get people who start to deconstruct analogies. Yes people, OP wanted to discuss Soccer and Chess....morons.

I feel your words are wasted on a community who has assimilated to this new age of gaming.
Have you seen the market lately? You can purchase the best of the best through an item mall; with your real life money.

Road to riches? Paved with stalls. You buy your way up and people seem to enjoy this absurdity.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

A shame really...OP posts an extremely accurate assessment of this community, and we get people who start to deconstruct analogies. Yes people, OP wanted to discuss Soccer and Chess....morons.

I feel your words are wasted on a community who has assimilated to this new age of gaming.
Have you seen the market lately? You can purchase the best of the best through an item mall; with your real life money.

Road to riches? Paved with stalls. You buy your way up and people seem to enjoy this absurdity.

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Well, if the community needs a sample of the kind of opinion expression that I think detracts, rather than contribute, here it is. This quote comes to you directly from the current thread on Gear Repair:

Quote:

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i like the leves repairs however NEED to go i would rather lose 5-10 percent xp on death than spend gil on rep[airs and the wards are just plain stupid we NEED MORE CONTENT stop making shity content like iffrit we dont need time synks we need FUN FUN FUN now that being said i like the post about dm giving weapons and gear a buff instead of repairs come on yoshi and team get rid of tanaka's cvrapy ideas completely unlkess SE is being duechbags about it i fail to see why you havnt just said if tanaka made it scrap it

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The thread I started was never about drop rates per se, although I did make a joke about them. I didn't even know there was a controversy raging on another thread about the Ifrit fight and the totem drop rate. I was referring more about a rather debased, unthinking minority that posts a lot, and fosters an atmosphere that I consider detrimental to the think-tank this forum is supposed to be. They tend to be the ones that, having been told repeatedly that the games is in a process, that content is being crafted as we speak, and that the goal date for delivery of its new look/feel/functionality/content will not come until the dawn of 2013, are still screaming about lack of content, demanding that it be rushed and then--post-rush and delivery--spew disparaging comments, contorting themselves in insults (all of which include the word SUCK)--about the content that came rushed and unfinished only because of their furious demands.

I know Square Enix is about to start charging, and I'm glad they are. For many reasons. But for said minority, this is only proof evident that the game should have content NOW. And it is also license for them to spew and contort some more. I'm having fun seeing the game acquire shape as I play it, I'm amazed at the ingenuity of the new team and their director, I'm surprised at the endless resources of earnestness, competence and diligence. And I'm shocked that the above-mentioned minority doesn't seem to see improvement, only reason to complain.

In the wake of a skills and actions re-haul that brought sense where there was none, adding interest, strategy and elegance to the players' interactions in one single swoop, and then went a good way to adding enough of a feeeling of "balance" to the combat system, I have read not one fully praiseful post here, for the good effort. Instead we still get the never ending litany about lack of content (a given. Pace Mr. Tanaka) and the echoes of "Sucks" ricochet all over. Well, the game needs time. Furthermore, if you want to play it, from here onward, you'll have to pay. Not that there's only reason for praise. Criticism is welcome and needed. Only let it be mindful, respectuf and (yes) constructive. Come to terms with it, start having fun, since there's plenty to be had, and enjoy the (we hope succesful) transformation about to take place in front of our eyes. It won't be perfect (it never is) but with our help, it might be good enough to make FFXIV the best game around. The potential is there. Now, will the community step up to the plate?

R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrekeLamorte

Skipped reading the 11 pages to reply to this instead.

I played FFXI for 7 years starting at American release. I've always, always had deep, seething anger for that system. Join an endgame shell, be on a probationary period for a month (no lots, pass on everything), make it to full member and join a queue of lotting priorities for an item that may or (mostly) may not drop, on the run that they are doing this week. Probably nothing useful for you there anyhow.

Excuse my language....

FUCKING. STUPID.

I understand how and why it works the way it does. Kudos to whatever asshole couldn't mediate with his members, or maybe just didn't care and wanted the priority, that came up with that system. It stuck. Hard. Suddenly it was 'the way.'

I like FFXIV's lot system. Could be better, but hey, that's where the players come in. Come up with our own systems.

This new system works great. Hey! You showed up. You did the work. It dropped for you! Congratulations, friend!!! Do you need it?

[ ] Yes. Thanks! Can't wait until we get your drop!

[ ] No. Who wants it? Oh, more than one. Lots, please.

---

I do understand this and never did like it. Reason being is it is geared to 1 or 2 people in the linkshell who are just plain greedy. You could attend every event gain xx amount of point and some LS lead would say oh you dont have enough points and let his buddy lot the item. A system needs to be made that is fair and should not be use by a person thats just plain greedy and wants the complete set or what not just to say look I got it. I have seen people go afk and do nothing and they get there drop. The ffxi system wasnt fair to those who did the work.
I find that the current FFXIV drop system good and bad. Reason is if you already have the item you cant have 2 of the same item/gear that rare rare/ex. See the game knows you have 1 of that weapon and you should be allowed to give the 2nd 3rd and so forth and so on of the same drop to some1 who dosent have that weapon/gear. The current system takes the issue out of 1 player or group of players being greedy and hijacking a lotting system. Thats exactly what happend in FFXi with its lotting system. If all players are participating in said event all players should enjoy drops, not just a few selected players. It takes team work and everyones efforts not just 1 or 2 players to accomplish what ever goal it is.
Now who should decide what is fair should it be the players or should it be the DEV's? I personlyy think it should come from the DEV's as there not the 1's that will be greedy it is the players that will be greedy. I have not forgotten those that like to go afk and do nothing, those players should recieve nothing because they did nothing and a system can be made so that if you only did 1 or 2 action in a 30min- 2 hour event you did nothing, you get nothing period.
Now the current system is fine as in if it drops to you and if you need it, it belongs to you, if you dont need it you should have the option of passing it to someone who dose need/want it. This would make every1 happy except for those who want said item/gear 1st. Unfortunatly the moogle and ifrit weapons you dont have the option to do that but that is fine, except when you end up w 2 of same items/gear. The game already knows you have 1 of those item/gear and that should be put in a lottable pool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I do understand this and never did like it. Reason being is it is geared to 1 or 2 people in the linkshell who are just plain greedy. You could attend every event gain xx amount of point and some LS lead would say oh you dont have enough points and let his buddy lot the item. A system needs to be made that is fair and should not be use by a person thats just plain greedy and wants the complete set or what not just to say look I got it. I have seen people go afk and do nothing and they get there drop. The ffxi system wasnt fair to those who did the work.
I find that the current FFXIV drop system good and bad. Reason is if you already have the item you cant have 2 of the same item/gear that rare rare/ex. See the game knows you have 1 of that weapon and you should be allowed to give the 2nd 3rd and so forth and so on of the same drop to some1 who dosent have that weapon/gear. The current system takes the issue out of 1 player or group of players being greedy and hijacking a lotting system. Thats exactly what happend in FFXi with its lotting system. If all players are participating in said event all players should enjoy drops, not just a few selected players. It takes team work and everyones efforts not just 1 or 2 players to accomplish what ever goal it is.
Now who should decide what is fair should it be the players or should it be the DEV's? I personlyy think it should come from the DEV's as there not the 1's that will be greedy it is the players that will be greedy. I have not forgotten those that like to go afk and do nothing, those players should recieve nothing because they did nothing and a system can be made so that if you only did 1 or 2 action in a 30min- 2 hour event you did nothing, you get nothing period.
Now the current system is fine as in if it drops to you and if you need it, it belongs to you, if you dont need it you should have the option of passing it to someone who dose need/want it. This would make every1 happy except for those who want said item/gear 1st. Unfortunatly the moogle and ifrit weapons you dont have the option to do that but that is fine, except when you end up w 2 of same items/gear. The game already knows you have 1 of those item/gear and that should be put in a lottable pool.

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Holy wall of text Batman...

lol it was so big I couldn't dodge it, I had to turn my monitor off.

Here's what I would like to see for lotting options. Before I get started, we all know this is just wishful thinking, but thought I'd share anyhow.

_______________Common Pool__________________ ____Lotting Option____
| Member 1 ................................................. Want | . | ........ [ ] Need ........... |
| Member 2 ................................................. ----- | > | ........ [ ] Want ........... |
| Member 3 ................................................. Pass | . | ........ [ ] Pass .......... |
| Member 4 ................................................. Need |
| Member 5 ................................................. Need |
| Member 6 ................................................. Pass |
| Member 7 ................................................. Want |
| Member 8 ................................................. Pass |


Need = Priority Pool, for those who can actually utilize the item, now.
Want = Fallback Pool, If any lot in Need, this pool will act as a reserve lot. A final tally would then give the option to pass item along to highest lot in Want, or second highest in the even no Need lots were made.
Pass = Obviously, not lotting on item/instant lose lot.

This would be made interesting with a roulette wheel appearing on screen for all to see on an item. This wouldn't be very difficult considering this game is almost entirely server-side based.

In the case you already have the item, Pass will be auto selected, depending on whether or not it is u/u. If it's not, Highlighted options would be Want and Pass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrekeLamorte

Here's what I would like to see for lotting options. Before I get started, we all know this is just wishful thinking, but thought I'd share anyhow.

_______________Common Pool__________________ ____Lotting Option____
| Member 1 ................................................. Want | . | ........ [ ] Need ........... |
| Member 2 ................................................. ----- | > | ........ [ ] Want ........... |
| Member 3 ................................................. Pass | . | ........ [ ] Pass .......... |
| Member 4 ................................................. Need |
| Member 5 ................................................. Need |
| Member 6 ................................................. Pass |
| Member 7 ................................................. Want |
| Member 8 ................................................. Pass |


Need = Priority Pool, for those who can actually utilize the item, now.
Want = Fallback Pool, If any lot in Need, this pool will act as a reserve lot. A final tally would then give the option to pass item along to highest lot in Want, or second highest in the even no Need lots were made.
Pass = Obviously, not lotting on item/instant lose lot.

This would be made interesting with a roulette wheel appearing on screen for all to see on an item. This wouldn't be very difficult considering this game is almost entirely server-side based.

In the case you already have the item, Pass will be auto selected, depending on whether or not it is u/u. If it's not, Highlighted options would be Want and Pass.

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Isn't this essentially the need/greed system WoW uses?
Which, btw, I am 110,000% in favor of FFXIV using...

Wouldn't know, played WoW for a whole 4 weeks back before BC. I would love more things utilizing a need/want mentality. Of course you'll still have to deal with extra greedy people, but that's what LS and Companies are for. To be a part of a community where you can trust the other members that completed the even with you not to be d-bags and just lots on everything.