What's up with healers not healing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I have a strict one death/one kick policy with healers and tanks.

---

No policy for DPS who repeatedly get hit by stupid?

Edit:

I totally misread the post, I thought it said, "next time you get a healer that JUST DPSes just kick them ASAP."

Why do I expect anything but LQ bait from Thunda?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

My advice? Next time you get a healer that DPSes just kick them ASAP. They're just looking to get carried, especially if someone dies while they do so. I have a strict one death/one kick policy with healers and tanks.

---

Since I can't find the image....I'll just type it.

Low quality bait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

No policy for DPS who repeatedly get hit by stupid?

---

Don't bother with this person, hes a terrible troll and many seen him play as well and hes not the smartest in the room lol .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

My advice? Next time you get a healer that DPSes just kick them ASAP. They're just looking to get carried, especially if someone dies while they do so. I have a strict one death/one kick policy with healers and tanks.

---

Wow obvious toxic trash player is obvious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Since I can't find the image....I'll just type it.

Low quality bait.

---

Giving too much credit.

Wow guys D: Be nice to thundah! She has dementia and sometimes gets out of the tank forums and mistakes the healer forums for them. :[

One like, one prayer for thundacow's memory. :[

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

You don't need to overgear OS4, no (obviously world first on the first day proved that). But your healers better DPS their nuts off if you don't make that gear check.

---

Perhaps because OS4 isn't tuned for not having farmed some of the gear already? You can't expect to be doing progression and be considered "properly geared" in the first month for the later floors. You're raising your expectations ("we should be able to clear this with our gear") without considering how the content is really tuned. Was the content supposed to only last a week? Two weeks?

Are we supposed to walk into Savage without Savage gear and just complete all the floors the first week? I don't think so. If anything, Savage raid is supposed to be tuned such that you need gear from Savage to clear the later floors. Unless they've changed their design philosophy?

In any case, I think healer dps should be something that's nice to have, but never considered "required". It can let you push progression a week or two earlier because healer dps is making up for the missing dps from damage dealers, but outside of progression, it should never be the attitude that healer dps is "required".

And O1N-O4N isn't progression, is it?

It's plain and simple to me. My main job is to keep people alive. So I heal first. If I have time and mana available in between heals. Then I'll toss around my Aero's, Stones and Holies.
If people go nag that I don't do enough dps, which frankly never happened, then the DPS should start to learn how to play their own job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

Wow guys D: Be nice to thundah! She has dementia and sometimes gets out of the tank forums and mistakes the healer forums for them. :[

One like, one prayer for thundacow's memory. :[

---

Well yeah getting whacked on the head so many times as a tank can't be good for your mental health.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysaine

If people go nag that I don't do enough dps, which frankly never happened, then the DPS should start to learn how to play their own job.

---

Even if both dps do 5k (so 10k dps total), 2k dps from healer is still noticeable, it's 20% of two dps-es dps.

community created problem.
After all those "non-dmg healers are lazy and should get kicked" threads some are now too afraid not focusing on dmg.

Uhm, hello? Can't you just clemency yourself? Why should healers have to stop watching netflix to baby sit you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

community created problem.
After all those "non-dmg healers are lazy and should get kicked" threads some are now too afraid not focusing on dmg.

---

I love how so many people are doing their best to blame this on people asking healers to DPS in downtime, and not players just being bad and lazy. They were obviously playing healer chicken to see which one would give in and be the "main healer" so they could be "off healer" and just be a lazy DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuperZay

How is it not needed? Almost every trial and raid has enrage timer and/or the hardest last phase, which can be skipped with extra party DPS. Healers only make it harder for themselves because they'll have to heal more.

---

I am not against Healer DPS, since I DPS myself as a Healer, but anything non Savage 4.0 doesnt really need Healer DPS if the usual DPS are on point. I mean if you eat Enrage on Susie or Lakshmi EX then there is something wrong with the DPS-Role People in your Team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Damane

I am not against Healer DPS, since I DPS myself as a Healer, but anything non Savage 4.0 doesnt really need Healer DPS if the usual DPS are on point.

---

True, but surely the ideal is to have people at least trying to play their runs well. As you say all content - outside of structured raiding - can be completed with ease but I would rather be in groups with healers dpsing, tanks using combos, and dps at least attempting to do some kind of rotation.
Personally, I've found myself getting annoyed if dps take damage as it interrupts my dps having to heal them - but I play a very aggressive WHM :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilyrian

True, but surely the ideal is to have people at least trying to play their runs well. As you say all content - outside of structured raiding - can be completed with ease but I would rather be in groups with healers dpsing, tanks using combos, and dps at least attempting to do some kind of rotation.
Personally, I've found myself getting annoyed if dps take damage as it interrupts my dps having to heal them - but I play a very aggressive WHM :)

---

oh i agree DPSing is fun on Healers and should be done, i merely wanted to say if you see an enrage its not because of the lack of Healer DPS, but the actuall DPS suck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Damane

...but anything non Savage 4.0 doesnt really need Healer DPS if the usual DPS are on point.

---

Eh...

If you aren't DPSing in Savage at least a little bit as a healer, you aren't really functioning at your full capacity.

I don't expect DPS to be perfect, but I do expect them to be proficient. That said, throwing out ~1k DPS on healer helps with any potential hiccups in the run, and helps take pressure off of the DPS a smidge.

Not to mention, the DPS check in OS3 does feel kind of tight, so having that extra ~2k from the healers doesn't hurt (well, unless people die).

You just got bad healers. Our primary focus is party health. We DPS if there are windows that allow it, but not to the detriment of our primary focus. If you are going to do that, go play a DPS instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Eh...

If you aren't DPSing in Savage at least a little bit as a healer, you aren't really functioning at your full capacity.

I don't expect DPS to be perfect, but I do expect them to be proficient. That said, throwing out ~1k DPS on healer helps with any potential hiccups in the run, and helps take pressure off of the DPS a smidge.

Not to mention, the DPS check in OS3 does feel kind of tight, so having that extra ~2k from the healers doesn't hurt (well, unless people die).

---

Please read what i said, i am not stating that DPSing on Healer is false or wrong. But their DPS is hardly needed/required on anything that isnt hard (read O4S and O3S). If you encounter Enrages on anything else without anyone dieing then its clearly that the DPS-Party Members suck period. And if you encounter Enrages even with Healer DPS well... god may help you

Yoshi P did say Healers should not have to DPS at all in raids in SB, so the blame lies on the DPS not pulling their weight, healers should not be forced into dps just to clear a raid. DPS SHOULD NOT DIE, the amount of times dps floor tank is unreal. IF no one dies then DPS need to be doing the most they can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Damane

Please read what i said, i am not stating that DPSing on Healer is false or wrong.

---

I don't think you were saying it is wrong. I guess I am just of the opinion that no matter what the content, healers should try to be pushing DPS as hard as they can. Whether the DPS are amazing or absolutely terrible, the damage contributed by healers is still helpful.

...well, unless your DPS are pulling sub-3.0 numbers. Then any contribution a healer might make damage-wise is likely to be moot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Yoshi P did say Healers should not have to DPS at all in raids in SB, so the blame lies on the DPS not pulling their weight, healers should not be forced into dps just to clear a raid.

---

For me, it has nothing to do with being "forced." I want to contribute as much to my team as possible in Savage. I think that should be everyone's goal. If DPS checks are super tight, it really isn't hard to cast an occasional damage spell to get a few hundred DPS to ensure a safer and speedier win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Yoshi P did say Healers should not have to DPS at all in raids in SB, so the blame lies on the DPS not pulling their weight, healers should not be forced into dps just to clear a raid. DPS SHOULD NOT DIE, the amount of times dps floor tank is unreal. IF no one dies then DPS need to be doing the most they can.

---

good luck clearing o3s and o4s without any healer dps with the current gear most people have.

Sadly, deaths can happen.
Whether your healers dps or not. They just happen sometimes. Its human.
Its actually really ridiculous to expect dps to go all out with a maximum 100% dps uptime while flawlessly performing every mechanic while your healers stand around twiddling their thumbs.
In fact...if you do THAT, 1 death can decide over making the dps check or not. If both healers dps, the dps check is usually still doable even with 1 or 2 deaths (which is waaay more realistic).


Honestly (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular): If you cant DPS as a healer...you do NOT belong into savage raids. Especially not now when cleric stance is no longer a thing.
Go back into expert roulette, practise and git gud first.

edit: or wait a few months until youre fully geared with creation tome gear sets, everyone has their 330 weapons and all the accessories from o1s ..... then you can get yourself carried through savage with 0 healer dps. GG

Healers not healing is the same as DPS underpreforming, Tanks not knowing when to pull less or more or stay in DPS or Tank stance. OP you met bad players, there are alot of them here, either kick them out or ignore them. When Healers and Tanks make mistakes or underpreform, its very obvious, this is not the case with DPS.

If parsers were allowed, this forum would have been full of threads talking about bad DPS players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laerune

If parsers were allowed, this forum would have been full of threads talking about bad DPS players.

---

I honestly think it would be kind of 50/50.

There are a lot of people who think they are amazing at the game, but were they to parse, their numbers would tell them otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

I honestly think it would be kind of 50/50.

There are a lot of people who think they are amazing at the game, but were they to parse, their numbers would tell them otherwise.

---

Yup, there are so many people who think they do good damage, mitigation or even healing. Just because they play the class doesn't mean they good at it. For instance a tank who takes the balls and dish out some dmg on the sword during sword phase in susano, he actually did rage of halone combo. Why? There is no aggro on that thing either... I think, I might be wrong, a parser would help a few but would also not motivate some people anymore from what I've read from some players. When they find out they actually doing bad it's gonna ring another bell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

community created problem.
After all those "non-dmg healers are lazy and should get kicked" threads some are now too afraid not focusing on dmg.

---

Community problem is many sponsor bad play. Many get teached so wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. When they start getting called out for not being so good after all, they just say''I'm having fun''. Thats completely fine, but dont go around say some weird shit like not using regen on tank since it generates aggro? Like what? Or the tank who does aggro combo on the things that doesn't even have aggro on. Like the sword in susano.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Yoshi P did say Healers should not have to DPS at all in raids in SB, so the blame lies on the DPS not pulling their weight, healers should not be forced into dps just to clear a raid. DPS SHOULD NOT DIE, the amount of times dps floor tank is unreal. IF no one dies then DPS need to be doing the most they can.

---

I'm going to preface this with the fact that I'm a tank main and generally heal as a second role.


Why is it fair to expect the dps (and tanks) to play at max/near max capacity while healers get to sit on their thumbs and do nothing for gcds and ignore huge portions of their skill kits? I know this argument has been brought up time and time again but with how laughably easy it is to dps now as a healer (it wasn't really hard to before, you just had to learn the fight and it was more unforgiving if you made mistakes with switching to cleric stance at a bad time) the days of 0/barely any dps healers should be long gone. Especially in all content below O3/4s where not enough damage goes out to justify sitting on gcds waiting for damage to happen. I don't think anyone expect 99th percentile fflogs dps from every healer they run into but just minimal effort to contribute shows that they aren't sitting around watching netflix while they play.

Naturally, the priority is keeping the party alive (yes, that means covering for mistakes that shouldn't happen like people eating aoes they shouldn't) but what's required to keep the party alive isn't very much in all but the toughest of content, especially in this patch. It does depend a lot on the players you're with as well but in 4-man settings there's no notable damage going out enough to wait for it to come and in 8-man settings you should be coordinating with your other healer naturally. The very nature of the healer roles should dictate all the coordination needed without saying a word and "main"/"off" healing shouldn't be a thing. If you have a shield and a regen healer the shield healer shields before hits and the regen healer heals after them, if you have 2 regen healers (which is fine outside of content that NEEDS shields for survival) then both of you patch damage up after it comes out. No words should need be said and just by following that simple guideline all content besides maybe savage can be healed smoothly. Outside of that there's a simple rule to follow, ABC (always be casting). If no healing is needed then you should be contributing to damage unless you need to conserve resources for upcoming mechanics. Whether or not you need to or want to is irrelevant nor does anyone really expect 100% of people to be able to do this flawlessly. Even the hall of the novice teaches you to throw out some damage spells if there's no healing to be done.

Now, there's a good possibility that the healers in the op were just slacking off but there's also a good possibility that they were learning to adjust to playing their classes better and made mistakes. If they corrected themselves and you didn't die to tank busters again then there's no real need to make a thread about it. Even if they didn't there still isn't any need for a thread about it either. When a dps eats an aoe trying to see if they can boost their damage output or a tank gets a bit greedy as well nobody seems to bat an eye but if a healer overestimates how much time they have to dps and someone dies it's a cardinal sin that warrants a forum post. I would much rather be a victim of a healer learning to play better than sit through runs with 0 dps healers that sit on their thumbs while expecting everyone else to play at max capacity.

I feel like there's an unfair burden on healers so when they try to branch out and improve themselves they get villified for mistakes. This isn't a good way to make people want to heal and drives potential healers away from the role. All the while people make forum threads about how long their queue times are and why does nobody play tanks or healers while two threads up someone is complaining about their healers.

Tl;dr people expect either too much or too little of healers and not much of any other role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Yoshi P did say Healers should not have to DPS at all in raids in SB

---

Has he actually said this? Can you provide us with a source?

(Even if he has, it doesn't really matter in any way, since healer DPS is obviously required for the later floors at least until the group is much more geared than any groups currently are.)

You aren't clearing O3S/O4S without any tank or healer DPS currently, so good luck with that.

Notice all those XPFs for O3S out there asking for people to do damage? I wonder why...

If a healers DPSing, I expect a perfect run with no healing related wipes or deaths, because they clearly have the run down to the letter. It's not expecting too much to expect a healer to not let people die, that's expecting them to perform their base role. When said basic role is compromised? Nothing wrong with getting someone else that can actually perform that basic task.

And why not? I hold myself to the same standard after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

"...expecting them to perform their base role."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I hold myself to the same standard after all.

---

Careful. Don't want to push yourself too hard now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If a healers DPSing, I expect a perfect run
And why not? I hold myself to the same standard after all.

---

Good luck with that.

I'm not sure how you don't know this, but I'll tell you anyway...

Human beings cannot obtain perfection. We are imperfect by nature and therefore we all make mistakes; you included. So be ready to vote kick yourself out quite often as well :)

I play as a healer 90% of the time so I've got a smaller opportunity to run into these types of people and indeed, I haven't. I do have a couple of questions though. Based on my own experience, if I have to blow every CD I've got on a tank during the first pull (and there isn't something funny going on like a double pull or extra adds and the like) I usually speak up. It's not to be mean, it's to make sure everyone is on the same page. I want my groups to succeed and in order to do that we've got to communicate. So are tanks who get involved with healers like this doing the same?

I know there's a stigma about speaking up. Sometimes you find yourself kicked. Sometimes the group says 'oh just let it go'. Sometimes they start taking it out on you (which is the hardest for me). Nobody likes being blamed for someone else's failures. But at this point shouldn't we be taking that risk rather than making salty forum threads that, while cathartic, don't actually solve the issue?

When I think of heavy, I think back like Doma Castle when I was leveling PLD 70 I would always do that big double pull from the start, regardless of healer ability. I always use Hallowed Ground for that one, if they are good they will take advantage of such with healer AoEs. But half the time they would just heal during the invulnerability :( Otherwise I just go through all my cooldowns, and try to proc some Sheltrons until this one dies.

Doing it this way ensure Hallowed Ground is also back up when we got that Magitek+soldiers mob which is also really heavy to heal, sometimes I double pulled into that if the healer was really good.

Now what I mention I never saw once with PUG tanks when I leveling my healers, but that is how a tank is supposed to play their defensive cooldowns. Use proactively and get more uses. But half the time you get dud tanks that just hit cooldown buttons after big damage hits, or when they scared they are going to die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If a healers DPSing, IAnd why not? I hold myself to the same standard after all.

---

See, this is why I can't take you serious. When people actually seen you play in the game and told people how you play, I just can't take you serious at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Good luck with that.

I'm not sure how you don't know this, but I'll tell you anyway...

Human beings cannot obtain perfection. We are imperfect by nature and therefore we all make mistakes; you included. So be ready to vote kick yourself out quite often as well :)

---

I am starting to get curious what topic i missed, considering she seems to be quite "well known" around here...

I'm a returning player and used to play a WHM which I loved. I'm now feeling very nervous going back to healing and there's no way I will dps if I don't feel I can manage. Does that make me a lazy and bad player? I'm currently levelling a Bard just because I don't want to heal a dungeon without a trial run on a dps first. I always enjoyed healing and take a lot of pride in being a good healer. I haven't had any real abuse in FFXIV but I am always nervous I will get this tank that will just rush off before I have time to buff and then pull most of the room. I've had this happen so much in WoW that I just left the game just hate the gogo mentality that destroyed the enjoyment of the game for me. The community in FFXIV is mostly great though and I know the problem I have is just that, my problem. Just wanted to give you another view point. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyranade

I'm a returning player and used to play a WHM which I loved. I'm now feeling very nervous going back to healing and there's no way I will dps if I don't feel I can manage. Does that make me a lazy and bad player? I'm currently levelling a Bard just because I don't want to heal a dungeon without a trial run on a dps first. I always enjoyed healing and take a lot of pride in being a good healer. I haven't had any real abuse in FFXIV but I am always nervous I will get this tank that will just rush off before I have time to buff and then pull most of the room. I've had this happen so much in WoW that I just left the game just hate the gogo mentality that destroyed the enjoyment of the game for me. The community in FFXIV is mostly great though and I know the problem I have is just that, my problem. Just wanted to give you another view point. :)

---

No one is asking you to overburden yourself. They are just asking you to do something in your downtime. That's all anyone has ever asked at all and anyone saying otherwise is on the opposite in and don't want to DPS at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

No one is asking you to overburden yourself. They are just asking you to do something in your downtime. That's all anyone has ever asked at all and anyone saying otherwise is on the opposite in and don't want to DPS at all.

---

People need to stop coming up with extremes.
I, for example, always try to dps when healing. But, i am still in the "no healer dps"-camp.
Why? Because i stand my ground and do not want Healer to be required to dps.

It should always be an extra, and not mandatory.

And thats what people fail to understand. We dont say healer should not dps / never dps. They just shouldnt be forced to dps.

I don't know how we got to 12 pages and 9 pages of them show that people can't follow a simple conversation. The topic does not say : Should healers dps/Should they not dps! The topic is about healers not doing anything, yes that means they stand around, despite the fact that they can't simply follow their role, and that means healing. Not even a regen gets applied, tanks dying to auto attack aka 500+ fluff dmg, when there are two healers in a party etc. It's not about the damn dps of healers, and people's opinion about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaFaye

I don't know how we got to 12 pages and 9 pages of them show that people can't follow a simple conversation. The topic does not say : Should healers dps/Should they not dps! The topic is about healers not doing anything, yes that means they stand around, despite the fact that they can't simply follow their role, and that means healing. Not even a regen gets applied, tanks dying to auto attack aka 500+ fluff dmg, when there are two healers in a party etc. It's not about the damn dps of healers, and people's opinion about it.

---

EDIT: Scratch that, i read it as an awnser to my post and not a general statement.