Why is StormBlood full of dps that never aoe?

Yup many people tend to forget that hitting 2/3 mobs with AOE spells is still slower than single-target destroying them. Not that both options aren't viable in most situations though, it's a min/max thing.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Yea but you not taking into account the single target rotations and Verflare or Verholy which would yield more dps then aoe spam. Also SE said they want us to stop doing big pulls, ever notice how the mobs hit alot harder now? Besides its quicker just pull small groups allow the healer to dps then pull massive groups and use weak potency aoe spam, not letting the healers dps at all.

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You can still use Verholy/Verflare regardless if you spam Scatter or not. At 3 targets if you wanted to max your mana generation, you would scatter, then verthunder/veraero, repeat, although I'm doubtful that's even worth it with Scatter bonus mana proc. At 4 targets, you would Scatter spam, no arguments.

The entire single target melee combo + finisher is 1520 potency. Enhanced Moulinet x 3 is 1800 potency on 3 targets. On 4 targets it's 2400 potency. As a bonus, Moulinet spam takes less GCDs.

Math.

See this is why people don't AoE. Because numbers are hard, apparently.

A few reasons, sometimes because the Tank pulls three mobs at a time (nothing wrong with that if they're unsure it's just not efficient on BLM.) Sometimes because the Tank pulls 4+ but after my first aoe everything in the aggro list goes orange so I have to spread my dps around (because aggro dump skill cool downs.)

There's usually a good reason beyond "because I want to waste time."

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Why is StormBlood full of dps that never aoe?

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Square-Enix hates Speed Runs but doesn't really understand how to nerf them or even why we do it. /thread

People will hold on to their believes like flat earthers it seems :)

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Square-Enix hates Speed Runs but doesn't really understand how to nerf them or even why we do it. /thread

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lol! :D

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I have a spear.. the pointy end goes into things. Over and over. .. I don't understand what you are talking about.[...]

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Krotoan, you need to read the following very carefully:

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Originally Posted by alimdia

[...]Just people who cannot multiply numbers, they have been here since ARR launch, and no matter how much you try to explain that 100 potency on 4 enemies is better than 250 on 1 they don't get it.
[...]

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Most Combos ends with a DoT effect on the mobs.
Why applying the same DoT on the same mob. Over and over... again?

To think beyond the tip of the spear.
To manage the TP bar to inflict AoE dmg on DoTed mobs.
To see the big picture when fighting a pack of mobs.
To cooporate as a team towards massive overall damage.

Because some classes are better on single target and others do just fine on AoE.
I would prefer to see my DRG doing its regular rotation and throwing an AoE combo every now and then than just spamming TP out of him.
You also need to see that just taking TOO long to kill the mob group is just stressing out heals at some point, if you kill one mob out of 10 attacking the tank, it is one less source of dmg on the tank, thus, becomes easier for the healer and now the healer can also dish out a bit more DPS.
Its about balance really, not saying its wrong to AoE, I'd be sad to see my BRD not spamming AoEs, but I don't see why I wanna see my DRG just spamming AoE combo when it can take out one single target 10x faster.
If the pull is just TOO big, its better to focus one target to reduce healer stress than just taking one whole minute with a huge mob and killing it all at the same time.
Again, its about balance and having common sense, purely situational.
and leaving PARSE aside.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Why is StormBlood full of dps that never aoe?

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Because basic primary school math (age 5-12) is apparently difficult for 90% of this game's playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

[...]
(oh, and he was a mentor lol)

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Faliandra: "(oh and he was a lolmentor sigh)" ** Fixed**

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

[...]
Also SE said they want us to stop doing big pulls, ever notice how the mobs hit alot harder now?
[...]

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Any references to back this up?

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Originally Posted by MADJAM

Any references to back this up?

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Well maybe not a reference that SE said however heal the SB dungeons, everything does in fact hit harder.
This according to friends who have always mained healers

Why is this even a thing? 3 or more, AOE whore. 2 or less, single target's best.

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Originally Posted by MADJAM

Krotoan, you need to read the following very carefully..

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I am well aware of what each of my skills do. I do NOT debuff the same mob over and over. I put the dots on other monsters, I know my job. Thank you for your concern.

what I am repeating over and over is: I can AOE.. but most times I'm not allowed the luxury as DF parties are chaotic and PUGs are super unreliable to help with TP management and/or pack consolidation.

A lot of times what will happen is I'll start my combo, and then I've got half the pack attacking ME. ..
OP asked why people are hesitant to AOE.. that's why i don't do it by default. I don't trust you PUGs.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Well maybe not a reference that SE said however heal the SB dungeons, everything does in fact hit harder.
This according to friends who have always mained healers

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Everything hits harder when you're in i290 gear, tell your friends to get to i320 and tanks can now survive door to door pulls.

It was literally the same in Heavensward launch, big pulls were hard to heal when people had law gear, not so much after everyone started getting gordian and esoteric gear.

I mean, I AoE because it IS better, but let's not pretend it's super fun gameplay to spam an AoE. Take MCH for instance. Your GCDs look like this.
Pull of 3-6 monsters
Place Bishop Turret -> Hot Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot until Overheat, then -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot until about 1 second left for Overheat, -> Flamethrower til over -> Hot Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot -> Spread Shot

With maybe 2 or 3 OGCDs sprinkled in.

I love how people that probably don't even play BRD are saying Quick Knock is better in a pack just because each mob is hit with 100 potency. With my rotation, when I am not in Army's Paeon I am never AoEing except with Rain of Death. I can burn enemies faster single target than I ever can with Quick Knock expecially with how costly QK is even with Tactician(which does have a long CD).

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

I love how people that probably don't even play BRD are saying Quick Knock is better in a pack just because each mob is hit with 100 potency. With my rotation, when I am not in Army's Paeon I am never AoEing except with Rain of Death. I can burn enemies faster single target than I ever can with Quick Knock expecially with how costly QK is even with Tactician(which does have a long CD).

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No, the dps lost not using quick nock outweighs the free procs. While it's fun to see free aoe dps, the setup takes far too long. Source: brd main most of ARR, and have it at 70 as my main on one of my characters.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

I mean, I AoE because it IS better, but let's not pretend it's super fun gameplay to spam an AoE.

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Let's also not pretend trash mobs are "super fun gameplay" no matter what skills you're using.

Because for my classes, before 70, it is literally better resource wise for me to do single target on packs of 3-4.

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Originally Posted by Clawbriar

Because for my classes, before 70, it is literally better resource wise for me to do single target on packs of 3-4.

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There are no classes like that in this game.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

No, the dps lost not using quick nock outweighs the free procs. While it's fun to see free aoe dps, the setup takes far too long. Source: brd main most of ARR, and have it at 70 as my main on one of my characters.

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Your source is anecdotal, use math instead.

Stormbite 670 potency, Quick Nock 660 potency on 6 enemies. However Stormbite also gives you free procs and with 6 of them ticking at 30% crit rate, you're 1-0.7^6= ~0.88 = 88% likely to get a proc every 3 seconds, which translates to 110 x 6 x 0.88 / 3 = ~193 potency per second in Mage's Ballad using Rain of Death procs against 6 enemies, and in Wanderer's Minuet 0.3 x 120 x 6 / 3 = 72 pps (roughly) with Pitch Perfects shot at 2 stacks.

At 6 targets Quick Nock is 660 / 2.5 = 264 pps
The value of Stormbite in Mage's Ballad is roughly 670 / 2.5 + 110 x 6 x 0.88 / 3 = ~462 pps.
The value of Stormbite in Wanderer's Minuet is roughly 670 / 2.5 + 120 x 6 x 0.30 / 3 = 340 pps.

Even at 10 targets, Quick Nock is only 110 x 10 / 2.5 = 440 pps.
MB Stormbite ~624pps, WM Stormbite ~388pps.
Quick Nock beats WM Stormbite at around roughly 8-9 targets and never beats MB Stormbite unless the targets die in less than ~12 seconds after DoT application.

It's not very useful to put up more than 10 DoTs (10 targets or 5 double DoTs) because by that point your proc rate is already > 97%.

TL;DR: In Mage's Ballad you should Stormbite all targets before Quick Nock unless they die very very quickly. In Wanderer's Minuet it should be a guaranteed gain to Stormbite up to 7 targets before Quick Nock. Nobody cares about Army's Paeon.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Let's also not pretend trash mobs are "super fun gameplay" no matter what skills you're using.

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I'm not gonna buy the argument "Pressing 1 2 3 etc" is just as fun as "Pressing 1..........1.............1.............1.........1"

I do actually enjoy the dungeons, heh.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

No, the dps lost not using quick nock outweighs the free procs. While it's fun to see free aoe dps, the setup takes far too long. Source: brd main most of ARR, and have it at 70 as my main on one of my characters.



Let's also not pretend trash mobs are "super fun gameplay" no matter what skills you're using.

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I'd rather my "super fun gameplay" take 15 minutes as opposed to 20-30

I know that feel. I mean, as a monk when the tank mass pull the dungeon (which they always do now since its been a month >_>) I just go: Well, you better keep aggro, cuz here I go. TS+PB+RoF--> Spam RB. And this happen, I die. Cuz the tank think that getting all adds means its only going to die and that is job is done.

If tank want big aoe from our part, they better be ready for taking everything.

Althos I have to say that the mobs in the dungeons of SB do hit more harder.

As for aoe usage I can only spam so much before I\\\\'ve run out of tp and kenki... even with invigorate I\\\\'m usually totally tapped out but the 3rd large pack (ala mhigo, im looking at you)... as for not using goad I don\\\\'t take it myself because I shouldn\\\\'t be resposible for my tp, sen, kenki, and YOUR resource management... if it was a group wide tp regen it would be a different story... people also have totally forgotten there are items in game that will boost tp regen (and they are dirt cheap cuz nobody uses them)... so I\\\\'m not switching my crossbar just to pop goad on you because you can\\\\'t be bothered to manage your own characters abilities and items... want to speed run make a pf... df is a terrible place for such massive pulls...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

people also have totally forgotten there are items in game that will boost tp regen (and they are dirt cheap cuz nobody uses them).

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What items are you talking about? The only TP restoring items I see are PvP only.

What i dont get is why do we have Aoe skills that deal less dmg the more targets we have... Like an aoe that gets punished by Aoeing.... whut?

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

As for aoe usage I can only spam so much before I\\\\'ve run out of tp and kenki... even with invigorate I\\\\'m usually totally tapped out but the 3rd large pack (ala mhigo, im looking at you)... as for not using goad I don\\\\'t take it myself because I shouldn\\\\'t be resposible for my tp, sen, kenki, and YOUR resource management... if it was a group wide tp regen it would be a different story... people also have totally forgotten there are items in game that will boost tp regen (and they are dirt cheap cuz nobody uses them)... so I\\\\'m not switching my crossbar just to pop goad on you because you can\\\\'t be bothered to manage your own characters abilities and items... want to speed run make a pf... df is a terrible place for such massive pulls...

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Take Goad. It's a group DPS gain and costs you nothing, all melees should always have it set. You take it because you can and it's useful, not because it is/isn't your job. Do you also not use Feint because mitigating damage is not your responsibility? All roles have their own utility role actions. Use them.

As a Ninja, when enough enemies are present I will AoE with the frog and Katon/Doton plentifully, but I wont always spam Death Blossom both to preserve TP and maintain Huton via Armor Crushing.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

I'd rather my "super fun gameplay" take 15 minutes as opposed to 20-30

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Yeah, that's kinda the whole point. Nobody wants double-length runs because of dps that don't aoe.

I always AoE, but it depends on the circumstances. As a Samurai, AoEing two-three targets produces higher damage, of course, even with Invigorate (no one in dungeons seems to Goad but me), my AoE abilities bleed my TP dry in no time, so I'm usually forced to stop at one point and switch to single target so I can actually still attack.

@Nowakii: That was a conscientious change by SE because they wanted to keep people from just pulling masses of enemies and burning them down. It hasn't stopped anyone from doing it, as mob pack size is determined more by tank/healer than by DPS. It just makes it slower to do.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Snip.

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It really does seem like the only way SE can stop speed running is to just take out all spammable GCD AoE besides what the tanks need to maintain aggro. Either that, or drastically reduce the potency/tp ratio while still having AoE downscale dramatically.

Because SE took away my wide volley and i hate using quick nock.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...house-meme.jpg

Mostly TP consumption for me.

I AoE when atleast 4 or more mobs, or if the 3 Mobs are relatively weak that their HP goes down fast but most times I find after spamming AoE they still have 50% of their HP up after spending all TP on AoEing it becomes more resource safe at that point to just stick to single target so you can still use skills in the low TP margin area once they hit 50% HP until enough TP is gained back.

You can AoE all you want but when all TP regen and MP regen are still cooldown state and you're sitting at all enemy mobs at 50% HP after a AoE Spam fest thus in a low energy margin then you're pretty much just making the run taking even longer if the group is aiming to complete the dungeon as fast as possible.

Resource safe? You're making it sound like your natural TP regen doesn't exist... Even if you burned to 100 you'd still be able to regen enough to maintain a single target rotation.

I typically AoE as much as I can. TP drops below 50% and the mobs have plenty of health left, I pop invigorate. If the same happens again, I hope someone uses goad on me (which never happens but that's a different topic)

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

As for aoe usage I can only spam so much before I\\\\'ve run out of tp and kenki... even with invigorate I\\\\'m usually totally tapped out but the 3rd large pack (ala mhigo, im looking at you)... as for not using goad I don\\\\'t take it myself because I shouldn\\\\'t be resposible for my tp, sen, kenki, and YOUR resource management....

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And this is what's wrong with some of the people in this game. SE gave each job support abilities for a reason. Because DF (and PF) are team efforts, and this selfish mindset is exactly what is wrong with the playerbase, and exactly why people cannot AOE to their fullest potential sometimes. You complain about your own limited resources--how you start to run out of TP after a few rounds of AOE. But then, in the same breath, you say you aren't going to take a support ability to help another DPS that could very well end up in the same situation as you (AOEing packs down and eventually running out of TP) because that's not your job. By your logic, bards should never use Refresh to help out with a healer's MP. Or Tactician for TP. Casters should never Mana Shift. Paladins should never Clemency a dying party member (or themselves). Because those aren't their "main jobs." No. That is not how this game was meant to be played. Support skills exist for EVERY job, and EVERYONE is expected to use them.

There are no items for use in PvE content that restore TP. There are ethers and elixers, but those restore MP--completely useless to a melee DPS such as monk, samurai, ninja, or dragoon. How can people make use of items that don't even exist?

Stop with the selfish attitude. Help out your party members. Because I'm sure if it were you starving for TP, you'd be begging for a Goad/Tactician.



This is how a friend and I handled AOE situations while leveling up SAM to 60 together. We actually got a tank in the Vault who made a comment about SAM having poor AOE, so, in an effort to prove him wrong, here's what we did:
First wave of AOE went to me. At around half TP, my friend tossed a Goad on me, and I did a few more AOE combos + Token. When mobs were almost dead, we switch to single-target. Second trash pack, he took over AOE. I Goaded him at half TP, and we finished them off when they were at about 20% or less. Third pack I would AOE, except this time Invigorate at 600 TP. Fourth pack, his turn. At the end of the run, the tank was in awe and said he considered himself proven wrong.

That is the kind of teamwork that needs to be displayed in DF. Perhaps not to that amount of perfection, since we were in Discord with each other, but if you see a party member AOEing, and you have access to Goad, GOAD THEM. And then they should do the same to you.

But I suppose teamwork really is that difficult. Sigh.

Some jobs don't have sustainable AoE either. On SAM even with invig, I'm out of TP in roughly 8-9 GCDs, less if I took the opportunity during pull to throw up Jinpu. Once both of those are up, all my AoE comes from Kyuten+Tenka spam, which doesn't change the fact SAM AoE feels pathetic with Tenka. Guren is used ASAP, but it pretty quickly drops to Bane levels of effectiveness by the third mob.

Truth be told, SE did well by imposing diminishing returns of AoE abilities/spells. The bean-counters need to get over this obsession with "efficiency" (i.e. mindlessly using AoE attacks, even though it takes longer than the average play in American Football) and let players clear out enemies the best way they can, be that AoE attacks on small groups or single-target attacks on particularly ornery monsters.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

What i dont get is why do we have Aoe skills that deal less dmg the more targets we have... Like an aoe that gets punished by Aoeing.... whut?

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It SE way of saying to stop trying to rush through content by spamming 1 skill between bosses. Heck the developers even increase trash mobs HP and Damage output in 3.0 and even more in 4.0 but people still find ways to just Spam 1 AoE skill for 90% of the dungeon run with them only using single target skills on boss fights only.

At this point I won't be surpried if all future dungeons have Trash mobs that each have High Hp that 1 AoE only takes out 0.2% HP and use a 1 hit instant kill attacks if they are not single target killed fast enough to instant kill the Tank.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

But I suppose teamwork really is that difficult. Sigh.

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Is that really a surprise? I still run into plenty of Bards that don't have their TP nor MP regen skills in DF random groups at level 70 content dungeons or they don't use the TP or MP regen until the group hits 0 TP or MP.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

Resource safe? You're making it sound like your natural TP regen doesn't exist... Even if you burned to 100 you'd still be able to regen enough to maintain a single target rotation.

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Did you miss the part when I said "Spend all my TP on AoEing"?

As I said once TP is all used up on AoEing you're basically stuck with single target until TP regen skill is no longer on cooldown since passive TP regen only covers 60 TP per tick.

MP user DPS Job have it much easier managing their energy so they can spam AoE to their hearts content without worry of any possible down time.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Depends on the AoE, assuming you're talking about level 70 monk, arm of the destroyer yeah it's not worth to use at all until after 5 enemies, but you can definitely sustain rockbreaker alone as replacement for snap punch for 2+ enemies, or 3+ if you want to be more conservative with TP.

After SB monk has zero TP issues in normal gameplay, the cost of most skills is no longer 60 TP, so getting your TP low is not as much of a problem as other jobs.

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Eh.... I aoe all the time and use both my TP regaining skills and I ALWAYS run out of TP when aoeing. The only time I don't run out is when I don't aoe. :c