Sadly sayiing goodbye to SCH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jstamos

I pull 1.5k DPS on trash

---

Is 1.5k a lot? I'm asking seriously here, I'm not familiar with the actual dps output of healers currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I get the feeling that people leaving SCH now only played the job in HW because it was OP/EZ mode and now they simply can't cope (hence switching to AST).

---

I haven't reached 70 on sch yet, admittedly. That said, in the 60s, I'm honestly kinda hating sch, and I never used it in HW, so it's got nothing to do with not being able to cope with "it no longer being OP/EZ mode." I did use sch for a long while in my static for Second Coil back in 2.x (even got my Omnilex Novus for it, though got to switch to what was my real main at the time (blm) before any additional stages were added, so never took it past novus). It was fun back then. It wasn't "EZ mode," though it wasn't exactly super hard, either. It felt appropriate and enjoyable. Now, it feels like pulling teeth, especially compared to when I was leveling whm to 70 in these same dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

SCH's single-target healing capability is arguably stronger than WHM (bene won't be up for every pull), and you shouldn't be running out of MP in DF - the fights just aren't long enough.

Pressing indom is like a get-out-of-jail-free card in dungeons too, every 30s.

---

How is SCH's single target healing capability stronger than whm? I rarely need benediction on whm, and I have Tetragrammaton every minute for insta-cast 700 potency, and constant Cure IIs for 700 potency, with Cure at 450 potency. SCH has Physick at 400 potency, Lustrate at 600 potency (max 3 per minute, or 3 per 45 seconds with quickened aetherflow), and Adlo which has a combined potency of 600, and at lv68 costs 450 more mp than Cure II costs at lv70.

SCH can theoretically handle a need for quick burst healing more often than whm, due to lustrate + aetherflow cd vs Benediction's 3 minute cd, and that is useful, but that's an emergency case issue, which really should not be coming up more often than benediction cooldown, and even if it does, Cure II + Tetragrammaton is pretty much a simultaneous heal for about 1400 potency, while two lustrates is only 1200 potency, and 3 lustrates only beats it by 400 potency with its total of 1800, and has consumed all of your aetherflow stacks, so you're stuck with the 400 potency Physick and 300/300 potency, horribly mana inefficient Adlo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

A guaranteed spot in any end game raid. SCH has always been strong, if not OP, since ARR.

---

Of course it had a guaranteed spot in 2.x. There were only two healers and it synergized well with whm. :p

You're not factoring in the fairy's healing capability at all, which is a free ~55 pot/s that you don't even have to think about while dodging stuff, or more with the 40% pot boost from rouse.

WHM can CureII + tetra once a minute, SCH can Adlo + lustrate three times every 45s. Or adlo+lustrate+lustrate. The potency for both methods over 45s is the same if SCH alternates between adlo+physick, and more than WHM if SCH spams adlo (but not sustainable due to mana).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

AST cannot single target heal anywhere near what up to 3 Lustrates can do in a matter of seconds. As stated by the previous poster, AST cannot shield and regen at the same time in the middle of battle. AST cannot provide consistent, sustained personal DPS. AST cannot spread both a crit shield AND Eye for an Eye to every member of the party.

---

If you have to use 3 lustrates in a row, then you blow all your cooldown. Does not sound like a positive point.
Spread adlo is great WHEN it crits. Spread EoE.. can't even think of one fight where it could really be of use.
free healing from fairy is awesome but without sustain she can become a liability.
Shield + regen, sure, but that's why you are paired with a healer who can do the opposite

Again, I still like SCH so not ranting or anything, it's perfectly viable.
just don't see all these points you listed as positive compared to what the cards alone can bring as raid utility.

Are there seriously people still going on about that "SCH is OP/EZ job".

I can't even understand how you can come to conclusions like "SB SCH is harder to play than HW SCH" or "SCH single target heal is better than WHM because lustrate*3".

Also, AST have one HoT on their dome thing, they have their own signle target burst (wich is enough, 1k8 heal potency serves absolutly no purpose for its cost) and now a stupid good AoE heal with earthly star.

So yeah, indom press weaved in the DPS rotation is also stupid good, but after that it's lot of gimmicks tools thay may or may not works. It was patched 4.05 to be not underperforming for Omega's insane raid damage, but it's still a job that have a lot of skill to press but no overall design since SB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hysterior

snip

---

See I don't get what the deal people have with SCH blowing 3x lustrates if its needed. It's usually up within 40 seconds in the worst case, and even then you always have dissipation which will usually give you 6x stacks due to AF trait.

The other thing is that everyone says SCH is out of tricks once they use 3x lustrate, but WHM are also pretty much out of tricks when they use tetra+assize, and that's only 1000 pot. SCH on the other hand gets almost that much pot just from excog alone, or 1200 from just 2 lustrates.

WHM do get benediction, but in most cases it needs to be planned to be used at <20% hp effectively, otherwise it's just a ~1200 pot heal on a 3 minute cooldown that results in lots of overheal afterwards. It basically needs to combo with holm/LD. SCH can get that and more with dissipation.

You better have a good reason to blow 3 lustrates in a single stack, because it doesn't take that many to get someone in safe HP range for possible mechanics. You have Eos Embrace to do the topping-off job for everyone, so use her.

You have Excog now for more potency at <50%, use that. Raise someone and they need HP now? Throw Excog, not burn up all 3 of your stacks.

But it's just pointless, no one ever need that much healing. I don't even understand why "who as the best 1k+ potency heal" would mean something as you won't use it in the actual game ever on normal condition.

So yeah, SCH can do that.
If that's your kink, you can even open your triple lustrate with medecine + swiftcasted addlo under largess, illumination and dissipation. But why in the world would you want to do something like that other than just wanting to have de bigest numbers ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Is 1.5k a lot? I'm asking seriously here, I'm not familiar with the actual dps output of healers currently.

---

No, I was just giving the last number I had in a fight where I had no issues healing (emphasis was supposed to be on how I was not having issues healing as scholar, to the point where I could also dps).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I'd argue spreading Eye for an Eye is somewhat pointless as most damage will usually be focused on the tank(s) anyway so the rest of the group doesn't benefit from it as much, if at all.

---

Spreading an Eye for an Eye is not pointless, unless you are spreading it at bad times. Most bosses have raid wide AOE damage moves, an example of a great time to use it would be in V2 Savage during the move Antilight. It gives you plenty of time to aldo + eye for an eye the entire party which is always stacked together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

You're not factoring in the fairy's healing capability at all, which is a free ~55 pot/s that you don't even have to think about while dodging stuff, or more with the 40% pot boost from rouse.

WHM can CureII + tetra once a minute, SCH can Adlo + lustrate three times every 45s. Or adlo+lustrate+lustrate. The potency for both methods over 45s is the same if SCH alternates between adlo+physick, and more than WHM if SCH spams adlo (but not sustainable due to mana).

---

In Stormblood, the fairy ends up spending more time trying to keep herself alive than actually healing your allies, which is made even worse by the loss of Sustain since we can't use that to help the fairy get back to high enough HP faster so she'll start using those Embraces on allies instead of herself.

Also, for every time a sch casts Adlo to heal 300 potency (600 if you include the shield/use emergency tactics), a white mage can Cure II for 700 potency and at a vastly lower MP cost. On top of that, we've actually got a 48 second cd on tetragrammaton with 3 lilies, which isn't hard to get, while also keeping a 150 potency per tick regen going on the target, which over 45 seconds is going to heal 2250 potency, so if we're talking about healing over the course of 45 seconds, Regen alone heals more than 3 lustrates, not to mention white mage can also put a 15% of target's max HP shield on the target every 24-29 seconds, depending on lilies. Assuming the fairy actually does keep it's healing going on the target and doesn't end up wasting most her time healing herself, that's approximately 83 potency per second, though less effective than that due to the fairy having lower stats comparatively, so I'll guess that's where you got the 55 approximation. That's SCH's best chance to keep up with white mage, but has become highly unreliable unless you use macros to force your pet to Embrace the target instead of herself, in which case you're going to be ending up with a dead fairy much more frequently and having to spend that 2k+ mp plus swiftcast cooldown to resummon her. It'll vary some on the fight, of course.

You're also going to have more mana problems on SCH if you're using Adlo as much as you're talking about, since the efficiency on it has become horrifically bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

snip

---

I don't know what you are doing with the pet, but I never had this issue at all. Place your pet properly then, you know, interacting with your pet as a Scholar class? Why do you need Sustain on a pet? It does absolutely nothing for a Scholar since throwing a Physick on there heals for the same amount and is an instant heal rather than slow ticks. Also, if you micromanage your pet, she isn't healing herself at all as you can spam Embrace command and it will override it. Sustain healed rougly 25% of the pets HP, which is basically a small physick.
Aldloquim doesn't need to be seen or compared to a Cure II as it serves a difference purpose. It serves to shield more than it serves to actually heal. As a Scholar you don't go around spamming Adlo, especially in Savage content to heal people. And you seem to forget how useful critting Adlos is, it negates whole mechanics at times and you can spread the skill. 300 potency is more than fine for what it's able to do.

Your Regen comment is also terrible as Embrace hits harder than a WHM Regen and can simply be spammed if you micromanage your pet and it's free and it doesn't waste a GCD. I see no reason why you are comparing it to a Lustrate, it makes no sense at all.
Why does a Scholar have to keep up with a White Mage's raw healing, exactly? Does White Mage bring Chain Strategem? Does WHM have a free medica II every thirty seconds? Can WHM increase healing by 10%? Can WHM increase magical resistance for the whole party by 20%. Can White Mage put a 20k shield on someone / the party? Can White Mage throw out an instant 10k heal on the party every thirty seconds?

I don't understand you people at all. Scholar is in a fantastic position. Just a small potency increase on Physick or perhaps Embrace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ftail

Spreading an Eye for an Eye is not pointless, unless you are spreading it at bad times. Most bosses have raid wide AOE damage moves, an example of a great time to use it would be in V2 Savage during the move Antilight. It gives you plenty of time to aldo + eye for an eye the entire party which is always stacked together.

---

I did say somewhat pointless, not completely pointless and even in that scenario, it's still only a chance to reduce damage so it's not a guaranteed thing, which is something I've never liked about EfaE but since it was a natural part of SCH prior to SB it wasn't a big deal but now that it's a cross role, competing with several other abilities that, depending on the encounter, are more useful than EfaE, I barely ever use it now, if at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

In Stormblood, the fairy ends up spending more time trying to keep herself alive than actually healing your allies, which is made even worse by the loss of Sustain since we can't use that to help the fairy get back to high enough HP faster so she'll start using those Embraces on allies instead of herself.

---

Why do you keep comparing GCD skills with oGCD skills? SCH gets whispering dawn + embrace hot without even having to waste either gcd or oGCD while WHM has to waste a GCD to get the equivalent. And you somehow discount shields on SCH but the 15% shield counts as healing for WHM?

Like I said in the post the SCH can match WHM with alternating adlo+physick which is very sustainable due to physick's low mana cost. You're also forgetting that when adlo crits it gets double bonus from shields.

I don't know what you're doing with the pet but it receives 25% damage from AOE's, and also gets AOE healing. Unless you're just placing the pet at a position and forgetting about it any AOE heal should handle the damage the pet is getting from splash aoe's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

snip

---

Maybe you should actually read the conversation I was having. We were specifically comparing whm and sch single target healing capability. Regen was compared as part of how much cure potency each of the two jobs have over the course of ~45 seconds.

Also, SCH doesn't get a free medica II every thirty seconds. They get a free aoe regen. It doesn't come with the upfront 200 potency heal that Medica II. Not saying it isn't a good ability, either, but it's not Medica II.

And no, Adlo shouldn't need to be compared to Cure II. The problem is that Adlo *is* the Cure II for SCH. This was fine back in 2.x (can't really comment on 3.x since I played WHM in 3.x instead, but it felt fine recently when leveling sch 51-60), but now it's just got far too high of an mp cost for far too low of an effect, especially since they also nerfed SCH's mp sustain. Overall, that's not necessarily a bad thing, as it still works well for an ability to cast before the pull and occasionally for topping off a tank's HP while also giving them a little extra, though it's best use now is for throwing on someone (especially a dps or healer) right before a big hit is thrown at them (easy example being the charge the first boss in Bardam's Meddle does) to mitigate it.

Crit adlo is awesome. Always has been. It's also almost impossible to get it to a higher rate than 1 in 5, maybe 1 in 4, and that's when you can actually optimize your gear for crit rate. This was less of an issue when you could pretty much spam Adlo, but now you have to use adlo very sparingly, so you rarely get to see a crit out of it. It's absolutely spectacular when it happens, but it's far, *far* too unreliable to actually count on, tying the bulk of Adlo's usefulness into RNG, such a strong usefulness when it *does* happen that they find the need to keep the non-crit effect very low. "Can whm 20k shield on someone?" No, but neither can SCH with any reliability.

All of this would be much less of an issue if it didn't effectively limit us to spamming a weaker Cure I to keep people alive. You say Adlo serves a different purpose than Cure II and you're right, but we really don't have anything to compensate for lacking a Cure II. Adlo used to, but it doesn't even come close to doing so anymore. Lustrate/Excogitate are the closest, and they definitely help and are in general good abilities, but they're gated behind aetherflow stacks and Lustrate itself is weaker than Cure II. Sure, you can spam three in 3 seconds for a very nice burst heal, but then you're down all of your aetherflow abilities until the aetherflow CD is up, or you consume your fairy and lose its healing for 30 seconds, and it still doesn't compensate for the fact that whm can easily just spam Cure II without running out of mp while negating 700 potency worth of damage taken every gcd, while sch is stuck spamming a 400 potency Physick with the occasional lustrate for 600 potency and an excog once every 45 seconds for 800 potency. That average potency comes out to a good deal less than the 700 potency WHM can do, and the fairy's 250 potency (though significantly weaker than this in effect due to the lower stats fairies have compared to us) every 3 seconds isn't enough to bring that average up, especially when you add in the whm can keep a 150 potency/3 seconds regen on top of already doing sizably more healing than sch.

Sustain also carried the advantage of not requiring you to target your fairy to heal her. Yes, physick can heal about as much and instantly, but you have to target your fairy first, which is less of an issue in 4-man content, but is far more of an issue in 8-man content, since you can't just hit an F# key to target her quickly. You could also use sustain when she didn't need the full physick potency and it would most likely still be healing her when she takes more damage. As for placement, that only does so much, and isn't really very possible during large pulls in dungeons where aoe's flying around randomly because of the tank constantly having to move to avoid said aoe.

SCH's not useless, and I'm sure it can do the content, but it's definitely weaker than the other two healers by a good deal, and it's not in a *good* place right now. I don't think it would take much to get it in a good place, though. Return Embrace to 300 potency and give Physick another 50 potency (maybe even 100, but that *might* be a little too much, not sure) would be the easiest ways to fix it. Giving sustain back would be a great QoL improvement, so we don't have to worry about having to try to target a 9th party member, and SMNs need it back even more, since they don't have the option of targeting their pet and casting Physick on it for ~25% of its HP, and it's especially a pain for any of the healers to need to try to keep track of the HP of a pet not your own, much less targeting them to heal them, and can potentially make for healing a 10th/11th/12th/13th party member (not that you're likely to have 4 summoners lol) if we do try. X3

Honestly, I feel like one of the problems SE had when pruning away "rarely used" abilities is that they focused too much on the usage statistics and didn't fully consider context. Far too many SMNs and SCHs completely ignored their pets' HP and never bothered using sustain (and there's plenty of opportunities in most content to use sustain without reducing your dps) even though they should have been using it. If they adjusted the usage statistics to rule out bad players who just don't bother using an important tool, they'd have likely chosen to keep Sustain in the game. They also clearly ignored how important it is on smn for solo content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

snip

---

Most the time when the fairy does take aoe damage, it's from an aoe that the rest of the party has avoided, so you won't be casting an aoe heal, and if you're just referring to whispering dawn healing it up, yeah, it would be enough. That doesn't stop the fairy from continuing to heal herself with Embrace in the meantime, and whispering dawn's only up 1/3rd of the time. ADmittedly, sustain didn't completely stop it either, but healed her up much faster than whispering dawn, so she spent less time using Embrace on herself, especially since the potency was also higher on Embrace back then, so it took fewer embraces as well.

And yes, you can micro your Fairy's embraces to force her to use it on a party member instead of on herself, but that's meaning every 3 seconds you have to be targeting an ally, which is going to eat into your DPS, and one of the things about SCH is they're supposed to be able to spend more time DPSing because they can do that while the fairy is healing.

Also, if you actually bother reading what I typed, you'll see I did not discount the shields from SCH. I didn't include the crit adlo shield because of how unreliable it is. It's absolutely wonderful when it happens, but you're looking at *maybe* 1 in 5 adlos critting, and you can't afford to cast adlo anywhere near as often as you could in the past, making those crit adlos even rarer (not lower % chance, but just fewer in total number since you're casting fewer adlos overall).

As for alternating Adlo+Physick, that's 600 potency + 400 potency every 2GCDs for 2196 mp (at lv68, don't have the lv70 mp values available to me atm). Even if we do something similar on whm (alternate Cure II+Cure I), that's 700 potency + 450 potency for 1800mp (at lv70), with a 15% chance of the Cure II being free if you're being smart and using Cure first and Cure II second. WHM can instead just do Cure II + Cure II for 2400mp (which isn't gonna be much different than the lv70 Adlo+Physick mp cost at 70 by the looks of it) and 700+700 potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

As for alternating Adlo+Physick, that's 600 potency + 400 potency every 2GCDs for 2196 mp (at lv68, don't have the lv70 mp values available to me atm). Even if we do something similar on whm (alternate Cure II+Cure I), that's 700 potency + 450 potency for 1800mp (at lv70), with a 15% chance of the Cure II being free if you're being smart and using Cure first and Cure II second. WHM can instead just do Cure II + Cure II for 2400mp (which isn't gonna be much different than the lv70 Adlo+Physick mp cost at 70 by the looks of it) and 700+700 potency.

---

You can't compare oGCD potencies with GCD's because GCD's have an opportunity/time cost. You can't compare two skills directly in a vacuum because simply turning adlo into cure II will make SCH op. Cure II is stronger because it has to make up for SCH's large number of on-demand insta-heals.



Consider single-target healing over 45s - not gonna factor in clipping for simplicity

9x adlo + 9x physick = 9000 pot

whispering dawn = 667 pot

excog+lustrate+lustrate = 2000 pot

Fey Union = ~1000 pot

Total potency over 45s: 12667 pot

Now lets say over that 45s duration the faerie manages to get 5 roused embraces and 5 regular embraces for 2040 pot

Potency after embrace: 14707 pot

Now for White Mage:

16x cure II = 11200 pot
2x regen = 2100 pot
tetra + assize + plenary= 1450 pot

Total after 45s = 14750 pot

So the white mage comes out ~43 pot ahead, but will start to fall behind as the fight goes on due to having much higher cooldown times on their instants than scholar, as well as 1450 pot adlo crits.

They also have a much higher risk of overhealing due to regen ticks and no shields, though it's also possible for a scholar to have his shield wasted due to the target not taking damage.

Obviously I didn't account for more niche stuff with CD's >60s like WHM's asylum/bene or Scholar's Fey illumination/covenant/dissipation, but those are more for utility and to differentiate the classes.

Honestly the reason I prefer SCH single-target over WHM is because SCH has ~40% of it's healing as completely oGCD/passive, vs WHM who has like 15% at best. I've gone through entire dungeon runs without ever having to hardcast an adlo or physick.

If your fairy is getting hurt or dies, that is usually your fault for putting her in a dangerous zone. I've done it just because of my poor positioning. I had no one but to blame myself in O4 Savage when she was in the ExDeath tank buster AoE instead of being placed. It's not a fairy fault, just your position and on-follow you have to mindful of, so placing is better.

You do realize things like Susano EX are healed without a single Cure I/Physick/Benefic? Even the tank busters are handled as-approripately without those tier 1 heals.

I should tell people to try taking Physick off their hotbars, and learn how to play without using that skill and how much better their lives might end up being if they start using their entire toolkit to heal. Most of the SCH healing should be Eos, oGCDs, Embrace, and exclusively tether for mega-pulls while doing damage. Adlos are fine for busters or heavy hit, but Physick/Adlo spamming is not what this job is.

Another thing I want to add, and this seems to be lost on a LOT of people:

SCH has ZERO opportunity cost in holding onto their oGCD's. This is an amazing benefit and is one of the reasons they are competitive with WHM in healing.

If a WHM holds on to assize/tetra for emergencies, every single second that those two skills are not on CD is lost potency/mp efficiency.

A SCH can hold onto their 3x lustrates for up to 45s, and then immediately blow all 3 and be back with 3 more stacks, with 0 lost to potency or mp efficiency.

A basic way to look at it is that WHM is pressured to keep their oGCD's on cooldown for optimum efficiency, at the cost of reduced safety.

SCH can hold their oGCD's for up to 45s without losing any efficiency, and without the cost of any reduced safety. It's a huge difference between the two classes but knowing how to ration AF stacks gives SCH's a huge leg up on WHM in terms of versatility, and is one of the reasons why it's possible for SCH to heal without using a single hardcasted GCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I struggled to get it to 70, and I struggle every time I tank with a SCH in as main healer in a dungeon.

---

GET GUD SCRUB!

Like many people say it's not the class...
I personally had no problems leveling with Scholar pre 4.05. Sure we had some mp problems, but once you learned how to play around that it's not so bad and very manageable.
With the aetherflow changes that came with 4.05 using energy drain was a pretty sound thing to us a stack for. I also agree with others on the point were Scholars shine when the player knows the dungeon/raid/trail in and out. Cause you can do what the scholar does best. Mitigate, step-up, plan, and burst. There dps isn't bad ether. So don't go around leaving dungeons just cause a Scholar is in your party. Actually man up and learn the new system/class changes and stick with Scholar, or go to a different class.

But by the sound of it you don't sound like a good tank ether...

Best wishes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raylazer11

But by the sound of it you don't sound like a good tank ether...

---

Normally, I would ignore comments like this but I'm feeling masochistic today so I'll bite.

SCH has the highest skill requirement of all healers. As you say, they HAVE to know an encounter inside and out in order to play effectively. He claimed to only have problems with SCH healers and not WHM or AST. Maybe it's cause WHM and AST can just powerheal thru but if he was a bad tank, even they would struggle as well to an extent, would they not?
So isn't it even remotely possible that it was the SCHs he was with that need to "GIT GUD" and not so much Ogulbuk?

I mean, seriously, was the personal attack necessary at all to make any sort of a point with your comment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I did say somewhat pointless, not completely pointless and even in that scenario, it's still only a chance to reduce damage so it's not a guaranteed thing, which is something I've never liked about EfaE but since it was a natural part of SCH prior to SB it wasn't a big deal but now that it's a cross role, competing with several other abilities that, depending on the encounter, are more useful than EfaE, I barely ever use it now, if at all.

---

Only 1 healer needs to take protect, and the main point of deployment tactics is to spread Aldo. Not taking and using it with aldo would be like having a cake with no icing on the top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

snip

---

You can't leave out Asylum, which is another 800 potency over 24s, though will only get used once. And, with 16x Cure IIs, we easily have plenty of Lilies to get -20% on the cooldown of Tetra, Assize, and Asylum, which drops Tetra and Assize down to ~48 seconds, and you're leaving out Divine Benison's shield which would be usable at least twice per 45 second period if used with 3 lilies (which, again, with 16x Cure IIs is easy).

So no, whm won't fall behind as the fight goes on. You're also spending 1800mp for every Adlo, while we're spending only 1200mp for Cure II.

You also can't even remotely argue that whm has a higher risk of overhealing. Any competent whm will know whether a spell is likely to overheal, and the only risk of overhealing is on crits, which we don't prioritize in our gear anyway because it's too unreliable. And, with how low priority Adlo is to use now, I don't really see it being worthwhile for SCH to prioritize crit anymore either, which'll just make those adlo crits even rarer.

I will say, having finally finished getting SCH to 70, it definitely catches up a decent bit after 68 with quickened Aetherflow, but whm is still just better in every way.

And I'm gonna call you out for lying on your last comment if you're talking about any dungeon above lv65. Only way that might be possible is if you're not doing large pulls and people are in max ilvl gear for lv70. I've literally done an entire dungeon as whm never casting anything other than Regen, but that was Antitower, not 65+.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

Another thing I want to add, and this seems to be lost on a LOT of people:

SCH has ZERO opportunity cost in holding onto their oGCD's. This is an amazing benefit and is one of the reasons they are competitive with WHM in healing.

If a WHM holds on to assize/tetra for emergencies, every single second that those two skills are not on CD is lost potency/mp efficiency.

A SCH can hold onto their 3x lustrates for up to 45s, and then immediately blow all 3 and be back with 3 more stacks, with 0 lost to potency or mp efficiency.

A basic way to look at it is that WHM is pressured to keep their oGCD's on cooldown for optimum efficiency, at the cost of reduced safety.

SCH can hold their oGCD's for up to 45s without losing any efficiency, and without the cost of any reduced safety. It's a huge difference between the two classes but knowing how to ration AF stacks gives SCH's a huge leg up on WHM in terms of versatility, and is one of the reasons why it's possible for SCH to heal without using a single hardcasted GCD.

---

And if they're taking enough damage that we need to use our oGCDs soon as they come off cooldown, then yo'ure not going to be affording to hold onto your OGCDs either. If you're able to afford to hold onto your oGCDs for 45seconds, then so can we. There's no efficiency loss when there's literally no need for the extra heals. In such situations, you're probably overcuring with those 3 blown lustrates anyway, making them completely irrelevant and just as "lost" as the potency you claim we're losing when we're not having to cast oGCDs soon as they come off cd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technole

snip

---

Yeah, go ahead adn take Physick off your hotbar. You're going to start having full party wipes due to your stupidity. Stop spreading lies to make yourself feel better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Snip

---

It doesn't need a 200 up front potency (whispering dawn) because it's free and it's a OGCD. Your whole reasoning is again terrible. You seem so focussed on comparing SCH to WHM in the rawest sense that you forget everything else about it which makes it so good to use. If you want to use Cure II as a Scholar, you use Emergency Tactics on your Adlo, which again, if it crits heals for 30K hitpoints. Does Cure II do that? I don't think so. I don't understand what you mean by too high of an MP cost either. You're not supposed to spam Adlos left, right and centre. You don't spam Cure II on a WHM either, especially in a raiding scenario where your Regen, Tetra and if you're with a Scholar the pet regen will do the majority of the work. All I see is just bad gameplay if you spend your time spamming it.

Adlo is just an on demand shield that can mitigate huge amounts of single target and aoe damage. It is the strongest Aoe damage mitigation in the entire game. It does not need higher potency, but perhaps a slightly less MP cost. But I never had issues with my mana at all. You don't rely on crits in any way, shape or form, they are just nice to have. You don't go in savage for example, let the tank drop to ten percent because you're relying on your next Adlo to be a crit to mitigate the tank buster. It's a void and frankly terrible point to make and it holds no sense whatsoever.

We don't need a compensation of Cure II (which we do it's called Emergency Tactics). We bring other tools and utility that other classes do NOT have. It's again a terrible form of comparison when you're ignoring all the other tools a Scholar brings. You have ignored the party where I named all the useful pet abilities, Chain Strategem, Emergency Tactics, Deployment Tactics instant 10k heal every thirty seconds, Excog, Fey Union ... They are all tools that make it that Scholar lacks in the ST despart. What you would have is making SCH as strong as WHM in the ST department while keeping all your goodies it does not have? And people agree with this?

What you again fail to mention on the cost of Aetherflow stacks is that is builds Fey Union, so every stack you use, be it on Lustrate, Indom, Energy Drain, Excog ... It builds your gauge so you can just you know, let your fairy shit out 7k heals for free for a good thirty seconds! You seem to be coming back to this Cure II. So tell me, say we do give Scholar a Physick II with the same potency. What about White Mage exactly would you take to savage progression. What would be balanced then? I'll tell you what would be balanced, nothing would be balanced. You have no idea what you are talking about when you say that White Mage is better than Scholar in any way. None whatsoever.

I also - again - have no idea what you are doing with your pet in eight man content. My fairy has died once because she was placed in front of Catastrophe as he was dishing out his mini tankbusters. That's it. Place your pet better. In 8 man content, and in particular savage that are zero things that should be an issue with regard to your pet's health. Absolutly none.

Scholar is indeed far from useless and it is not weak at all in comparison to other healers. You just decide to focus on a single aspect of healing (single target) and seem to magically forget about everything else. It's in a very good place right now and most high end statics use it as the meta and I'll tell you why.

1. Chain Strategem
2. OGCD Embrace that is stronger than Regen on both healers
3. OGCD instant Indom healing you for almost the same amount as Cure III
4. Free OGCD medica II
5. Very good DPS toolkit and uptime because of the fairy
6. The ability to give 10% healing buff to other healers
7. The ability to increase magic resistance by 20%
8. The ability to give the strongest aoe shield in the entire game
9. The ability to use Fey Union which gives healers FULL DPS uptime when another regen is appliled
10. Chain Strategem again

I highly advise you actually look up some high end content from Scholars. I will do the courtasy for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaH-lSPrtvY
And if you want, I can also send you some FFlogs data. I score around 90th percentile on SCH DPS, am by no means amazing. But I do also use essential heals while DPSing like 70% of the time at least. I dish out almost the same healing as my Astrologian with much less uptime on healing. I don't think you actually understand how powerfully sustained SCH healing actually is. Look at the HPS in the video for example in comparison.

You also did not comprehend Technole his post. He's not saying to remove Physick from your hotbar indefinitely. He is saying that most of Scholar heals should come from your OGCD heals, your Pet, Union ... And he would be correct. In that video I posted, I don't think the Scholar use Physick once. This is the difference between you and high end healers. They know how to optimize. When Technole says that you should delete Physick from your bar in order to actually utlize all the other good shit you have, he would be correct. It would actually be a nice learning experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

If you want to use Cure II as a Scholar, you use Emergency Tactics on your Adlo, which again, if it crits heals for 30K hitpoints.

---

Honestly, I got to this and then stopped reading your post. Stop trying to make arguments centered around Adlo's crit case, because it only makes you sound uninformed. Can Adlo heal/shield for absurd amounts? Yes, absolutely. It's right there in the tooltip. Will it when you need it to? Almost never, especially with how low current stats make the crit rate. The random nature of crit means that it can never be counted on. Which means that it can't be planned around. Which means that as far as value calculations go, it might as well not exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyshn

Honestly, I got to this and then stopped reading your post. .

---

An Emergency Tactics none crit heals for 12k hitpoints. A Cure II heals for 14k. An Emergency crit adlo heals for 30k, a Crit cure II hits for 24k. So you're obviously missing the point here. When it needs to? I never said when it needs to because crits on demand would be absolutely broken. It's only 2k short of an actual Cure II, sure, it costs more mana too, but you're not supposed to be spamming it. That and when it does crit, it heals for 6k more than a Cure II. We have no Cure II equivalent you say? We do, weaker on one front, stronger on the other. Which is fine considering all the other utility Scholar brings that a WHM doesn't. I highly urge you to actually read what I'm saying rather than dismiss it because of your own bias.

Not really viable until they decrease the MP cost of Aldo. Yes the numbers are equivalent, but the MP cost is leagues worse especially since Scholar has way worse MP recovery than Whm now.

I mean at the moment because of how high the cost of Scholar's spells are I try and touch them only as a last resort otherwise I'll quickly OOM just for using a couple of Cure IIs.

My "bias", as you put it, is a preference for only taking into account the value of the vastly more likely outcome in an uncontrollable random event (That any given spell will probably not be a critical. Specifically Adlo, and especially when under the effect of Emergency Tactics, which makes it a one-shot that can't be fished for.). Just skimming through your post, I count 3 different times that you seem to be assuming the opposite, that Adlo's crit power is somehow it's baseline that should be used to compare it to other skills.

So no, given that we don't live in a perfect world of godly RNG, I don't think I'll be reading the in depth opinions of someone who's starting from that assumption.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersun

especially since Scholar has way worse MP recovery than Whm now.

---

MP recovery is higher than WHM, actually, with Quickened Aetherflow + Energy Drain. MP economy is worse, yes, because Thin Air is amazing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyshn

Snip

---

But your point is a void one to make because as I stated: It's worse in one state, it's better in another state. And in the state that it does outshine Cure II (the crit one) it by far outshines it. So it evens each other out of some sorts. Overall, you can't spam Adlo Emergency tactics of course, but as a Scholar, you're not even supposed to. You're not even supposed to be using Physick all that much. You seem to be reading wrong as well. Because I have listed far more reasons as to why Scholar is great with its toolkit. A crit adloquim is just an exclusive fantastic shield to Scholar. Which can negate whole mechanics. No other class can do this. Yes, it takes a bit of luck, but it's amazing nonetheless. Look at the video I posted. The Gravitational wave AND Gravitational Manipulation did ZERO damage. It negated two whole mechanics. That's how powerful it can be and thus in it's base form, Adlo never, NEVER needs an increase in potency. Even without it being a crit, it's still a fantastic ability.
You are simply strawmanning me in order to put forward your incredibly poor points. I actually had a look at your own parse on O1S. Not only did you do almost double the DPS of your co WHM, you did more healing than him as well. This is not exclusive to your team either as demonstrated in the video I linked. I heal with an experience Astrologian who has been a healer since the starting days of this game. I average around 2K DPS on O1S and O2S while having healed almost the same amount as you! But I probably don't know SCH that well, right? I think you should climb out of your ivory tower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

Snip.

---

I do want to point out that there is a slight flaw in something that you said.
While Embrace does have a slightly higher base potency than Regens on WHM and AST, something to consider is the cast time for each of the fairy's abilities. The regen effect is put on hold whenever the fairy is asked to do any other action, be it one of its other abilities or even just moving the fairy, so those are seconds that the regen effect is just cut off entirely. Another thing to note, is that WHM/AST regens can be applied to multiple people, whereas Embrace is one person at a time.

I'm not trying to discredit what you're saying, just pointing out a small detail that is important to note as it does obscure the math involved to be more in favor of WHM/AST Regen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I do want to point out that there is a slight flaw in something that you said.
While Embrace does have a slightly higher base potency than Regens on WHM and AST, something to consider is the cast time for each of the fairy's abilities. The regen effect is put on hold whenever the fairy is asked to do any other action, be it one of its other abilities or even just moving the fairy, so those are seconds that the regen effect is just cut off entirely.

I'm not trying to discredit what you're saying, just pointing out a small detail that is important to note as it does obscure the math involved to be more in favor of WHM/AST Regen.

---

It's a good point to make. However, Embrace does not cost a GCD to the player himself. so I guess that is also something. I would say Embrace and Regen are basically worth the same. They all have their little things about them.

SCH is by no means bad or weak.

If you are depending on fairy auto heals (Embrace), you are playing SCH wrong. The benefit of the fairy is her CDs, then sending her away for 20% healing potency and 3 stacks for extra dps or heals.

I literally just pointed out earlier how scholars can achieve better HPS and mp efficiency over time than a WHM in single target. There's never any actual need to blow 3x lustrates at the end of AF, that's what energy drain is for. Scholar single-target healing is amazingly good, but they need another class casting AOE heals because that's where they're weak.

SCH being forced to spam succors is a bad thing. Use indom/ET when needed and leave the rest to WHM's, and let the scholar handle MT heals while getting DPS uptime.

AOE healing in dungeons doesn't matter much because I've never actually even come close to running out of mp in any regular content. Indom every 30 seconds + whispering dawn is enough for pretty much everything till raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Yeah, go ahead adn take Physick off your hotbar. You're going to start having full party wipes due to your stupidity. Stop spreading lies to make yourself feel better.

---

To be honest, I do not use Physick in raid (O1S-O4S) anymore on SCH. Although Physick is SCH's most MP efficient GCD healing spell, you are better off casting Broil. Emergency Tactics, Indom, Excog, Lustrate, Fairy, Whispering Dawn, Sacred Soil, etc. are much better to use for healing. If something requires a SCH to stop dealing damage, SCH will not be using Physick unless for solo healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Yeah, go ahead adn take Physick off your hotbar. You're going to start having full party wipes due to your stupidity. Stop spreading lies to make yourself feel better.

---

More like look at how many replies by good Scholars that agree with me. I don't have to make myself feel better, I know I am.

I'm on-record not using Physick much or at-all. There are much better options in the SCH kit to use. How about you learn the job correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lulunami

To be honest, I do not use Physick in raid (O1S-O4S) anymore on SCH. Although Physick is SCH's most MP efficient GCD healing spell, you are better off casting Broil. Emergency Tactics, Indom, Excog, Lustrate, Fairy, Whispering Dawn, Sacred Soil, etc. are much better to use for healing. If something requires a SCH to stop dealing damage, SCH will not be using Physick unless for solo healing.

---

Yep. Rouse+WD, other fairy buffs, and Indom is practically your on-cooldown skills in Deltascape savage. Helps the other healer not heal as-much and keeps damage up. Excog for busters and auto-attacks after. Physick isn't in this picture. Sure you might use it for a raise, emergency GCD when an oGCD like Lustrate, or tether isn't available. The tether is even so good to just "sit and forget the tank" at-times.

Used to think SCH got worse and after reading some of the latest comments found out im probably just not using my toolkit to its full potential. Need to give this another try...