Is there any reason to play BLM over RDM now days?

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I'll just paste this here: BLM 5000 dps in Omega Savage 3

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nice numbers, but only possible due to having 2x 2 adds phases getting hit by foul (and foul criting luckily than to only the 2nd add during books)

OP you made the exact same thread about PLDs over other tanks.

I answered that too but while for tanks the gap isn't that much RDM is BLM with more utility and mobility. In dungeons tho BLM is a bit better with AoEs.
And yes, they are doing and should do more to calibrate the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

nice numbers, but only possible due to having 2x 2 adds phases getting hit by foul (and foul criting luckily than to only the 2nd add during books)

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Yep but it's encouraging to see that kind of numbers in the currently heaviest movement encounter in endgame

Hmm, should we bring the job that does slightly more overall DPS or the job that can buff your group DPS and prevent wipes with an instant cast raise available at (nearly) all times?

Sure is a head-scratcher.

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Originally Posted by knotwrite

Hmm, should we bring the job that does slightly more overall DPS or the job that can buff your group DPS and prevent wipes with an instant cast raise available at (nearly) all times?

Sure is a head-scratcher.

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It is indeed. most groups went in full Savage with SAM, while in T4 Monk's utility (which was deemed as un-impactful) determined the result of the fight. BLM is SAM, RDM is MNK. One is all-in on damage, the other is play safe

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

Yep but it's encouraging to see that kind of numbers in the currently heaviest movement encounter in endgame

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such rare occasions due too aoe-damage should not encourage.., and if we are like: "oh its fine afterall, look at this kill" .. Yoshi hesitate to fix blm

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

such rare occasions due too aoe-damage should not encourage.., and if we are like: "oh its fine afterall, look at this kill" .. Yoshi hesitate to fix blm

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Yoshi might hesitate to fix blm'

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Originally Posted by knotwrite

Hmm, should we bring the job that does slightly more overall DPS or the job that can buff your group DPS and prevent wipes with an instant cast raise available at (nearly) all times?

Sure is a head-scratcher.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...7n&sh=2f3a6b1a

I think it's an interesting read, savage raider perspective on RDM raises. They really highlight how useful it was to them in conjunction to the weakness changes.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Black mages are better looking, have higher salaries, and and are at the forefront of aetherial study.

Red mages are hippy communists who tell Big Magic that they're killing the planet.

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But us red mages score higher with the chicks. Must be that fear a black mage would toss them aside the moment a younger, prettier woman comes along.:p

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

But us red mages score higher with the chicks. Must be that fear a black mage would toss them aside the moment a younger, prettier woman comes along.:p

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depends, some like gothic/dark dudes.. (look at Sasuke, if he were a mage, he'd be black mage, ... Naruto would be a red mage; .. well Hinata would be a black mage, guess opposites attract)

Really.

That was the go to anime in this comparison?

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

nice numbers, but only possible due to having 2x 2 adds phases getting hit by foul (and foul criting luckily than to only the 2nd add during books)

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while the numbers were inflated because of the aoe, that mage was still on top for the whole fight also he did use LB which is not exactly good for BLM dps

edit: not to mention you can see that SAM was aoeing too and SAM has strong aoe moves too,

edit2: rewatched again to be sure, wow he mostly missed all the foul opportunity to cleave on the other add phases, the only foul that was hitting for aoe dmg was in the final add

both big adds got hit by foul in that run,.. during the 1st add, the blm gets near 5k.., just seems as if the 2nd add only got hit by the 2nd foul.., and the blm got single balances too

but the blm was mostly using B4 (?), need to check again, if only cause there was no other filler, but seemed to use it also when filling with T3

1st add foul doesn't cleaves (he gets to 5k here, on second add he fires 1 foul foul that hits both and gets balance (I think the enhanced one) 3rd he does a foul but if you stop the frame you see that apanda gets hit by a firestarter proc.
last adds he does thundeproc T4 + foul + meteor on them

Tbh to me it seems that he knew what he was doing an used all of his CDs in a smart way to offset the movements required in a fight, which is honestly what I think BLMs should do to get better at dps a boss, that said cleabving or not the dps was solid overall

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Originally Posted by Schondetta

play whatever class you enjoy. nothing else matters. If everyone played jobs only because they were the best the game would fail, not look like it does now, and you would never see a Dragoon. Also RDM is still a new class im sure the frequency will die down over time.

There is also a lot of ex Summoners (myself included) hoping on the RDM train because SMN is a messy bag of trash this expansion . So were essentially down one caster class until SE gets on it

Wish players would stop worrying about whats best and whats not. its not useful.

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OMG yes, before Summoner actually felt good ,now its all clunky and I'm hate playing it. Even Bahamut doesn't feel right :/ SE shanked SMN and left it dying in the corner.

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Originally Posted by Danatoth

Shouldn't black mage get something to make up for this? At this point it makes me feel like there is no reason to even play the job because red mage is just so much better.

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There are still BLM players out there, but right now... RDM offers so much utility for the same amount of damage.
Yet that won't stop me from playing BLM at all, because I very much love the pure destruction and Shantotto laughs. I want to see the day BLM having significantly superior DPS compared to RDM in exchange of less utility.

My suggestion? I'm thinking of Magic Vulnerability debuff on Foul for 10 - 15 seconds (or even 35 for infinite uptime) much like how Disembowel and Yukikaze are applied so easily. That should make its usage much more rewarding while benefitting only specific roles, such as PLD's Holy Spirits, Healer's DPS, and other casters; the advantage being able to apply this debuff much more often than RDM's Embolden.

Caster balance is just way off right now. Rms's mobility, damage, heals and even embolden are fine, who cares. Infinite instant battle res on the other hand is just too overpowered in terms of raid progression. Which how res penalty works right now its not even that punishing as long as dps is still high enough to cover enrage timer. Even during non progression its too good, because nobody perfect and mistakes happen.
SE really should address this issue or there will be no raid spot for any other caster class any time soon. Even as dedicated blm player with pretty decent dps i realize i still severely handicap my group playing blm over rdm. Its just too obvious.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

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-dragon add + boss is getting hit by foul

- the add during the books + boss is getting hit by foul too , just there the 1st foul seems doesnt hit the books add, only the boss, but the camera turns fast, might have gotten hit by the 1st too (when looking at the parser go up), the 2nd foul does hit both for sure

- and during the giant metal armour add (with many small ninja adds), at least 2 adds (or boss) get hit by a foul, if look over the heads of the small adds, when the foul (11k) next to the big add spears, you'l see a foul (13k) parallel a appear over the small adds head (if that indicates only the boss got hit besides the big add or if the small adds too, is not fully clear, but probably only the 2 adds)

blm dps is always good at start of a fight, but usally drops over the length, unless you have adds

and the samurai was not using his aoe well, his numbers didn't go up much during that last add phase or in general during adds

RDM is overpowered like arnold on steroids. wait a couple of months so he gets a rescaling

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

Caster balance is just way off right now. Rms's mobility, damage, heals and even embolden are fine, who cares. Infinite instant battle res on the other hand is just too overpowered in terms of raid progression. Which how res penalty works right now its not even that punishing as long as dps is still high enough to cover enrage timer. Even during non progression its too good, because nobody perfect and mistakes happen.
SE really should address this issue or there will be no raid spot for any other caster class any time soon. Even as dedicated blm player with pretty decent dps i realize i still severely handicap my group playing blm over rdm. Its just too obvious.

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Is it really infinite Raise if you're out of mana after 4 or so?

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Is it really infinite Raise if you're out of mana after 4 or so?

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well even 4 in a row are kinda insane... not eve the healer cls' are able to res 4 people in 10 secs - this is by far the strongest utility on Rdms side imo.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

-dragon add + boss is getting hit by foul

- the add during the books + boss is getting hit by foul too , just there the 1st foul seems doesnt hit the books add, only the boss, but the camera turns fast, might have gotten hit by the 1st too (when looking at the parser go up), the 2nd foul does hit both for sure

- and during the giant metal armour add (with many small ninja adds), at least 2 adds (or boss) get hit by a foul, if look over the heads of the small adds, when the foul (11k) next to the big add spears, you'l see a foul (13k) parallel a appear over the small adds head (if that indicates only the boss got hit besides the big add or if the small adds too, is not fully clear, but probably only the 2 adds)

blm dps is always good at start of a fight, but usally drops over the length, unless you have adds

and the samurai was not using his aoe well, his numbers didn't go up much during that last add phase or in general during adds

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I admit that I missed the second foul but the first 1 doesn't hit him, that said I don't think that downrating what he accomplished by saying that he got that results because he had some cleave dmg will do us any work, he played his cards well and that's that, even with a rotation that is considered by many inferior

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Is it really infinite Raise if you're out of mana after 4 or so?

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It's technically undefined by comparison.

4 (RDM) / 0 (BLM) is an undefined ratio, but the limit approaches infinity the closer you 'get to 0', so in the world of math, it's infinitely more raises than Black mages get.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

Caster balance is just way off right now. Rms's mobility, damage, heals and even embolden are fine, who cares. Infinite instant battle res on the other hand is just too overpowered in terms of raid progression. Which how res penalty works right now its not even that punishing as long as dps is still high enough to cover enrage timer. Even during non progression its too good, because nobody perfect and mistakes happen.
SE really should address this issue or there will be no raid spot for any other caster class any time soon. Even as dedicated blm player with pretty decent dps i realize i still severely handicap my group playing blm over rdm. Its just too obvious.

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Realistically you're not suppose to be rezzing a lot of people as it's a DPS lost. Especially if you're trying to rez a lot of people as the mana cost adds up. The only people you should be raising are healers and just mana shift them. I don't consider them OP in anyway.

You could be in a full party savage mode w/out a RDM and find success in clearing it. So long as everyone knows exactly what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Is it really infinite Raise if you're out of mana after 4 or so?

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4 rez's if you aren't attacking at all. people seem to act like RDM's never die. that really messes with our mana it's 3.6k out of our 14k mana. we can easily burn through about 1/3rd or so of our mana by dpsing in the CD time of lucid dreaming. 3 rez's would probably be max unless we have lucid or bard. depends on how often people die even then, we should only be rezzing if the healers are starting to hurt for mana because our mana is often hurting. add on top of lets say us getting a death , especially if we die soon after lucid dreaming is used or a bard mana is used (with that being a 180sec CD) we probably wont have mana for a rez for awhile. also, with all those rez's you are doing if the healers are doing the same, you probably will be hitting enrage every time.

Well the simple fix is either change the recast time for Verraise to 45s or delete it then add Raise to Role Abilities.

Kinda dumb that blm is the only rezless caster

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

Kinda dumb that blm is the only rezless caster

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I am perfectly satisfied having an excuse to not stop dpsing to rez another poor, unlucky soul. Let's just keep it that way.

BLM does not need a raise! It makes zero sense lore wise and Yoshi P scoffed at the idea himself in the last Q&A. It's an awful idea. If you wanna follow through on that logic I'd much rather it if everyone could use 1 phoenix down each per fight. It's more thematically on point and a logical conclusion to this preoccupation with everyone getting a raise.

Yeah no raise for BLM pls.

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Originally Posted by Neela

well even 4 in a row are kinda insane... not eve the healer cls' are able to res 4 people in 10 secs - this is by far the strongest utility on Rdms side imo.

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I'm sorry but if you have to burn that many rezzes that quickly, chances are you're not clearing what you're trying to clear. Yes RDM can rez quickly, but if people are dropping like flies, they either need to be replaced or you need to figure out what's killing people.

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Originally Posted by Damun

I'm sorry but if you have to burn that many rezzes that quickly, chances are you're not clearing what you're trying to clear. Yes RDM can rez quickly, but if people are dropping like flies, they either need to be replaced or you need to figure out what's killing people.

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In my v3s clear yesterday I ended at 4.2k on red mage and used verraise 4 times. That's the point, raise was always balanced out by having a large MP cost and requiring swiftcast or taking up 3 full GCDs if not more. Red mage ignores that completely.

As per the title: Yes. Coming from a dude who started as RDM in Savage and moved back to BLM, BLM is simply more fun. That's it. The only real reason to go BLM is if you enjoy it more. RDM will likely see some future, minor nerfs at this rate.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

In my v3s clear yesterday I ended at 4.2k on red mage and used verraise 4 times. That's the point, raise was always balanced out by having a large MP cost and requiring swiftcast or taking up 3 full GCDs if not more. Red mage ignores that completely.

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4 Raises in a Row? Or just 4 raises all together?

Nerfing red mage is as simple as two things in my opinion:

-Verraise and Vercure cannot be dualcast (and also fix Verraise's cast time to match the other raise abilities)
-Embolden targets the red mage for 10% and one other party member for 5%, like Dragon Sight or Devotion.

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Originally Posted by Damun

4 Raises in a Row? Or just 4 raises all together?

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Two of them were close together, the other two were separate, but in v4 normal I've raised 5 people back to back that died from vacuum wave and still had mana to boot (using lucid on the 4th raise)

Exactly, it should be an option for casters and since red is learned in some white and some black magic they never mastered either they should do Neither aspect better than the pure class in any way. Whether it's black magic nukes or white magic heals/rez. I don't care if they have to stop dpsing for 2 whole seconds (less penalty than a healer without swiftcast who had to stop healing to do the same) they have the option to pick up a dropped healer who can limit break to rez a party. An option the other dps members don't even have. Stop downplaying like it isn't a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Two of them were close together, the other two were separate, but in v4 normal I've raised 5 people back to back that died from vacuum wave and still had mana to boot (using lucid on the 4th raise)

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V4 Normal is also meant to be face rolled, Savage you have much much less room than that. If you had rezzed all 4 at the same time in V3s you probably wouldn't have made the DPS check.

Even then in an ideal raiding situation, no one should die, accident's happen, 1 or 2 people die. And as people get more and more comfortable in a fight, you might find the BLMs completely wrecking RDM in terms of damage, and as with such more people are more comfrotable, there are less dead people. So the Verraise would be a moot point in the end.

Verraise's current cost is negligible given the obscene amount Lucid Dreaming and Bardsong restores in every scenario but the guaranteed wipe.

The MP cost is still the same flat number, with a MCH for refresh and intelligent usage of lucid it makes no difference, but you're not wrong about progression. For progression, verraise is invaluable, and RDM's damage is decent enough to manage, not to mention its mobility and embolden.


The bottom line is that BLM's lack of mobility still makes it an underwhelming choice in a raid tier that favors mobility. Please refer to my other thread of suggestions on how to fix BLM's mobility to compliment raiding better. Absolutely take a BLM into a dungeon or to a map or just about anything else that requires little to no constant movement.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Nerfing red mage is as simple as two things in my opinion:

-Verraise and Vercure cannot be dualcast (and also fix Verraise's cast time to match the other raise abilities)
-Embolden targets the red mage for 10% and one other party member for 5%, like Dragon Sight or Devotion.



Two of them were close together, the other two were separate, but in v4 normal I've raised 5 people back to back that died from vacuum wave and still had mana to boot (using lucid on the 4th raise)

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First off, dual cast isn't relevant for vercure as it doesn't actually improve throughput.

Secondly, if you want to mostly remove red mage utility then they need to be within spitting distance of black mage DPS. A single extra rez every minute is pitiful when you already get two from your healers so no one will bother with them otherwise.

This gives two options:
1) Red mages are close enough to black mages in DPS that they beat them on high mobility fights even if the black mage optimises the fight perfectly.
2) Black mages consistently out DPS red mages if they know the fights but red mages offer enough utility to make them still desirable.

We're currently sitting on number 2. This means that red mage is more desirable for learning new content but on the flip side, they will be obsolete for speed kills and farming runs.

Edit: To clarify, I mean number 2 as the approach. Potencies may need to be adjusted but I highly doubt we'll see big 'role' changes like making red mage into a high DPS, low utility class or giving black mage significant utility.