Please, NEVER nerf RDM!

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Originally Posted by Kling-Klang

I already said I would not mind if they actually decide to gimp the raise and heal. Do you want RDM to make as much dmg as BRD/MCH who are support?

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I think you are misunderstanding the point of having utility. Just because you personally don't use the tools available to you doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I think you are misunderstanding the point of having utility. Just because you personally don't use the tools available to you doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

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What tools do you mean? I raise people when they need it, use my buff and throw a heal if I really really have to.
Are there any other tools which suddenly appear and I just have not noticed?
Do you mean the cross class skills, which every caster has?

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

By itself, no there is no problem with a simple job. However, when that simple job does equal or higher DPS, has literally no drawbacks and outperforms similar/related DPS (while also bringing amazing utility), then yes there is a problem.

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But RDM -does- have its drawbacks. Its DPS takes a hit if it bothers to heal/raise, as does its MP, which is a VERY finite resource. RDM has its drawbacks. The fact a good player won't have to deal with them, doesn't mean they're not drawbacks. Any good player knows how to play a job so that they don't have to deal with the drawbacks.

How I would nerf RDM to bring it a bit more in line:

-Reduce potency of Jolt, Verthunder, Veraero, Verfire, and Verstone. Not by a significant amount.
-Increase the damage of the melee combo and finisher, again, not by a significant amount.
-Change Verraise so that, if Dual-Casted, puts a 30 second recast timer on it.

These two changes will reduce overall DPS while still keeping it viable, increasing burst damage and rewarding effective Corps-a-Corps combo usage and cooldown use, and making RDM utility lessened somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

But RDM -does- have its drawbacks. Its DPS takes a hit if it bothers to heal/raise, as does its MP, which is a VERY finite resource. RDM has its drawbacks. The fact a good player won't have to deal with them, doesn't mean they're not drawbacks. Any good player knows how to play a job so that they don't have to deal with the drawbacks.

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Lol DPS taking a tiny hit on the very rare occasion you have to raise someone is not a drawback. Stop kidding yourself.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

How I would nerf RDM to bring it a bit more in line:

-Reduce potency of Jolt, Verthunder, Veraero, Verfire, and Verstone. Not by a significant amount.
-Increase the damage of the melee combo and finisher, again, not by a significant amount.
-Change Verraise so that, if Dual-Casted, puts a 30 second recast timer on it.

These two changes will reduce overall DPS while still keeping it viable, increasing burst damage and rewarding effective Corps-a-Corps combo usage and cooldown use, and making RDM utility lessened somewhat.

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I'm reminded of the old phrase, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it.' RDM isn't broken. Fixing Jobs that aren't broken is how we break jobs. 'Gee, Ability Bloat is terrible. Let's consolidate buttons with upgraded spells just automatically upgrading.' Suddenly Summoner loses a DoT, and its AOE damage takes a hit.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'm reminded of the old phrase, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it.' RDM isn't broken. Fixing Jobs that aren't broken is how we break jobs. 'Gee, Ability Bloat is terrible. Let's consolidate buttons with upgraded spells just automatically upgrading.' Suddenly Summoner loses a DoT, and its AOE damage takes a hit.

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Ability bloat was an actual issue. Most classes were getting too many buttons that they had to keep track of (see: Ninja). Culling those abilities caused some classes to suffer, and that's just bad design. As for the red mage issue, it IS broken; because of everything that they bring to the table with high damage and such few drawbacks, why would you ever think about bringing a SMN or a BLM over RDM? And that doesn't scream "broken" to you? How deluded are you?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Ability bloat was an actual issue. Most classes were getting too many buttons that they had to keep track of (see: Ninja). Culling those abilities caused some classes to suffer, and that's just bad design. As for the red mage issue, it IS broken; because of everything that they bring to the table with high damage and such few drawbacks, why would you ever think about bringing a SMN or a BLM over RDM? And that doesn't scream "broken" to you? How deluded are you?

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Like I said, RDM is fine on its own. Its the other jobs which need to be brought up. RDM isn't Broken. BLM and SMN are. Even before we could play the game BLM and SMN players were looking at potencies and new abilities and knew immediately their classes had been broken. If two lights won't turn on, but the third one will, the solution isn't to break the third light, its to fix the other two.

I would be surprised if they didn't add a cooldown to verraise. Being able to instant cast three raises back to back is kind of broken. And if lucid is up, they quickly get back that MP.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

How I would nerf RDM to bring it a bit more in line:

-Reduce potency of Jolt, Verthunder, Veraero, Verfire, and Verstone. Not by a significant amount.
-Increase the damage of the melee combo and finisher, again, not by a significant amount.
-Change Verraise so that, if Dual-Casted, puts a 30 second recast timer on it.

These two changes will reduce overall DPS while still keeping it viable, increasing burst damage and rewarding effective Corps-a-Corps combo usage and cooldown use, and making RDM utility lessened somewhat.

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30 seconds? what in gods name. seriously? the 9 second cast isnt enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Like I said, RDM is fine on its own. Its the other jobs which need to be brought up. RDM isn't Broken. BLM and SMN are. Even before we could play the game BLM and SMN players were looking at potencies and new abilities and knew immediately their classes had been broken. If two lights won't turn on, but the third one will, the solution isn't to break the third light, its to fix the other two.

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Congratulations, you've just created power creep, where classes are overtuned for content.

Nerfs are a harsh, sucky reality that we have to deal with in an MMO. I main PLD and AST, and I am dreading the nerfs incoming for both of those jobs, but I know they are necessary, because both are top of the charts in what they do. Instead of bringing everyone up, a much more sensible design choice is to meet in the middle.

The amount of bitching about SAM and RDM makes me concerned that SE will nerf both, which would be fucking lame. All because "muh job isn't top deeeppppss".

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

The amount of bitching about SAM and RDM makes me concerned that SE will nerf both, which would be fucking lame. All because "muh job isn't top deeeppppss".

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So much this. Right now we do not have enough information. People are basing this off of the two extreme primal fights which have heavy movement which of course will benefit RDM and even SMN more than BLM. Lets see what the numbers state after Omega savage goes on for a week or two to get actual numbers with some fights not being so movement heavy.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

You're missing the point. RDM gets a free Swiftcast Raise anytime they use Jolt, which is...every other cooldown. Yeah, it eats through mana, just as Raise eats through healer mana. That fact that it happens without the use of a single big cooldown and can be instantly worked into a standard RDM rotation (just switch Thunder or Aero with Raise, and you're good) is the problem.

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You're also missing that you can only raise twice to keep your DPS up. Thats only 1 more than SMN.
And as others have said, even if I was top DPS in my susano (idk why the SAM wasnt out doing my pittiful 3.1k dps)
If im out of MP to keep my DPS up, im not much better than a dead DPS.
And honestly even with my rez, the group still failed the enrage most of the time.

The one group that didnt need my raises, they were able to beat the DPS check.

In short, having 1 more raise over a SMN isnt all that its cracked up to be.
It IS a bonus over SMN, but its not as crazy as people make it out to be.

SMN and BLM just need some minor adjustments.
(SMN needing a sort of gauge that only depletes with GCDs, rather than with time, would be great)

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Originally Posted by Vorx

magic is OP but takes a while to cast the powerful stuff.

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Please tell me you aren't casting VerWind and VerThunder manually without the dual cast
http://cdn3.meme.am/cache/instances/...i-just-see.jpg

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

The amount of bitching about SAM and RDM makes me concerned that SE will nerf both, which would be fucking lame. All because "muh job isn't top deeeppppss".

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For real, the issue is just that. Im fine for some potency tweaks here and there as i do feel less utility/mobility should equal greater damage output, but to want a jobs main squeeze to be stripped just to make another job more relevant is silly. RDM is fine, it does what RDM do, it can help struggling parties, or healers in a pinch and go back to dpsing. As said before, in a raid set up itd probably be a wipe if that was counted on.

All I've read so far is "*insert class/job here* needs to be nerfed because it makes my/this class irrelevant in so and so setting! There for *insert class/job here* needs to be tweaked and nerfed!" When in reality, before Stormblood even came out, we could see the changes classes and skills even before release.

Rather than doing the about face and nerfing a class that's meant to do certain things, they need to revise and relook at each class where there IS a problem and tweak them rather than nerfing said classes due to certain aspects of a class. Offering more constructive suggestions rather than debating into the ground why a class should be nerfed, try to provide solid feedback, backed with actual data.

Red Mages shouldn't delude themselves. Your damage will be nerfed.

I don't see a good class in Red Mage because it doesn't have one at all.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Congratulations, you've just created power creep, where classes are overtuned for content.

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Its the launch of an expansion. The odds of all classes being balanced is pretty poor. So, what you do is, you plan for the future. Introduce the buffs needed to bring the classes to the same levels of performance or close enough that they can compete with one another. Sacrifice the balance of existing content. Then, for the first major patch, 4.1, you tune the new content around the now balanced classes.

Very simple process.

@Arutan

He seems to think Red Mage has long cast times, so must be the case? No idea why anyone would hardcast
Red Mage is not blm, slow casting is non existent on Red

They're going to nerf RDM and make BLM's rotation not be the 3.x hopefully.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

30 seconds? what in gods name. seriously? the 9 second cast isnt enough for you?

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RDM should not be able to raise multiple players faster than healers can with no penalty besides a hit to their MP.

Leveling RDM myself, I am in agreement that it needs nerfs, because its damage is WAY too high for all the utility it has. But rather than a straight up nerf, I think a damage redistribution would be better. Here's what I'd do:

- Drop potency of Jolt II/Veraero/Verthunder by 25 (I don't include Impact/Fire/Stone since they're procs)
- Increase Enchanted Riposte/Zwerchhau/Redoublement potency by 40-50.
- Increase the amount of white/black mana that Impact generates from 4 to 6 so that it's more than a proc-based improved Jolt.
- Increase proc rate of Enhanced Scatter from 25% to 40%.
- Increase Fleche CD to 45 seconds OR drop potency to 300.

Rewards RDM that have effective management of the balance meter, especially where Manification usage is concerned. And if watching other RDM is anything to go by, most RDM don't manage said meter effectively.

Upon further thought, adding a 30 second recast timer to Verraise wouldn't work since it's a spell and not an ability. If the devs converted it to an ability, it'd become an instant cast skill, which also means it'd no longer have anything to do with the doublecast mechanic. What's probably more fitting is that Verraise should require 10 White Mana to cast. The actual MP cost of the skill should be slashed in half to compensate. RDM still gets to retain its ability to raise multiple players better than healers can, but doing so will result in a MASSIVE personal DPS loss, so it should be a last resort thing. As it currently is, I see healers yelling at RDM to raise first, and that doesn't rub me the right way.

Fleche should also be nerfed in some fashion. I dunno about you guys, but a 420 potency oGCD on a 30 second cooldown that has absolutely nothing to do with their meter management (or any other skill, for that matter) is disgustingly high, and would be a pretty big contributing reason why RDM has higher practical damage output compared to SMN and BLM. For comparison, Bard's Sidewinder (another oGCD that doesn't have anything to do with a meter) has 260 potency on a 60 second cooldown, AND it requires both DoT effects to be on the enemy.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Its the launch of an expansion. The odds of all classes being balanced is pretty poor. So, what you do is, you plan for the future. Introduce the buffs needed to bring the classes to the same levels of performance or close enough that they can compete with one another. Sacrifice the balance of existing content. Then, for the first major patch, 4.1, you tune the new content around the now balanced classes.

Very simple process.

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Power creep is bad because some things are just so broken that no amount of buffing other classes will fix the issue without causing design problems for the rest of the game. I witnessed this concept taken to the extreme in a different game, and it decimated the community in the long term.

I don't believe RDM is THAT broken to discourage power creep mentality outside of Fleche and its uncanny ability to raise better than healers can, though. On the other hand, Astrologian Balance is definitely one of those things.

As a RDM main, I have no problem with them taking a nerfbat to the face.

Wait, you mean 570+ potency every three seconds and more support quality than SMN could ever dream of is perfectly reasonable? Yeah, I'd be amazed if it wasn't nerfed at this point.

I've never really understood why people want jobs to have complicated, long rotations. I had to stop playing BLM in 3.0 when it went from a fun job where you blow things up to one where you have to constantly babysit a buff while moving and having bosses become un-targetable or running out of trash. DRG and MNK have almost never been fun for me.

Most of the problems people have with both RDM and SAM is that they're a lot easier to play than their previously-implemented counterparts, and that makes sense - you shouldn't have to work three times as hard for the same or worse results. But while a nerf to those would solve it, and buffs to the counterpart jobs would be preferable still, I'd like it if they just simplified most everyone else (like they said they would but didn't). I realize this puts me in the minority, I just don't really understand why.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

RDM's utility is largely based in reducing its DPS output. Sure a RDM can raise 6 people in the time it takes someone else to raise 2, but will they have any MP left afterwards? RDM has no in-built MP regeneration, it relies solely on potions and Lucid Dreaming. Unlike BLM with infinite mana, RDM has finite resources that, once depleted, render the class useless. Yes a good RDM knows how to time their use of Lucid Dreaming and not to raise people who just keep getting killed, but the job still has finite mana.

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A RDM who raises six people may be out of mana - but you'll have six people up who weren't before. If the tradeoff is between having the RDM sit out a while and do 0 DPS, or having six people stay dead on the ground, I'd say the answer is pretty obvious.

It's a moot point, though, because situations where a RDM even has the opportunity to raise six people generally aren't going to happen outside of a 24-player raid. The point I was trying to make is that RDM's raise is fast, and it is always available - something that can't even be said for dedicated healers. It's why I think Verraise is going to get a nerf, even if in all other regards other jobs are brought up to RDM's level rather than RDM being brought down to theirs.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

30 seconds? what in gods name. seriously? the 9 second cast isnt enough for you?

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Not sure what you mean. For any RDM with an ounce of sense, Raise is instant cast. It could have a thirty minute cast time, and it'd STILL be overpowered in the context of RDM's playstyle.

I main Red Mage Because I Enjoy The Playstyle, Take away embolden, verraise, and vercure I wouldn't care. I'd still progress through all content, but I guarantee Most will Still Have Complaints because some feel its kicks you out of a raid slot, or has a 123 rotation (all jobs are basically 123). I played monk when people only wanted bards for coil I progressed, I Scholared when Holy Was the only Dps A Healer Should do, I Unleash My Inner Beast When Warriors were Considered weak... All Of The clunkyness and crappy Actions are Because of people who scream nerf it, it makes my job not be viable... If You. Can't Progress Raise your skill level, as I said earlier I Havent Come Across a red mage yet who has out dps'd me. Sam is a different ball game, even then I don't care... Its just my opinion and observation but in the four years I've played, all I see is people trying to enforce what the so call meta or whatever is popular 3.57 a lot of jobs were in great places now look where we're at

So RDM has a mana glitch, that needs to be fixed before any talk of nerfing the class.

Right now people look at the logs, claim OP, when there is a glitch being abused allowing for more use of RDM's burst combo which leads to more verflare/verholy which drastically increase the DPS on the logs.

Once the glitch is fixed then we need to see what happens to the logs to see the real DPS level when the class is functioning as it should be mechanically.

Dps jobs are not differentiated enough to allow them all to be viable. They all do the same thing. Just like there will always be one tank that is not as good because one will be king of dps and one will be king of damage mitigation. As more dps jobs get introduced more classes will get phased out.

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

Dps jobs are not differentiated enough to allow them all to be viable. They all do the same thing. Just like there will always be one tank that is not as good because one will be king of dps and one will be king of damage mitigation. As more dps jobs get introduced more classes will get phased out.

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Well, arguably BLMs are Kings of AOE damage. SMNs are Kings of DoTs. RDMs are Kings of Single Target Damage.

A word of caution using glitches on purpose. They just banned a ton of accounts ,and posted a warning saying not to intentionally engage in exploitation of glitches ,but rather report them as soon as possible.

To the point of blm ,and smn being weaker I assume they are once again following a cue from blizzard who would actively nerf classes to the ground during new content to force people to try new things. This sounds like a disgusting practice when you consider we pay them to sometimes ruin our favorite jobs, however the vast majority of players become discontent playing the same thing for long periods and venture elsewhere. When you consider it that way it's really just self preservation.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

To the point of blm ,and smn being weaker I assume they are once again following a cue from blizzard who would actively nerf classes to the ground during new content to force people to try new things.

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I really doubt this is the case. I think it far more likely they wanted to avoid a repeat of Heavensward in which 2/3 of the classes launched too weak to be viable in group content, and the last didn't hold up to the other two tanks as well.

Your argument is not unfounded as they did adjust dark knight damage, but DRK was a great tank in 3.x because of it's crazy toolkit for magic. If you partied with a DRK during Heavensward ,and they weren't very good they were most likely doing it wrong.

RDM is boring so idc if it gets nerfed.

RDM does indeed need a nerf. Embolden is far too powerful, so they should get snipped in their #'s.

That bit Thunda we can agree, but the base stats of an RDM are near perfect. Plus anymore i hardly ever see other RDMs even use it though.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Your argument is not unfounded as they did adjust dark knight damage, but DRK was a great tank in 3.x because of it's crazy toolkit for magic. If you partied with a DRK during Heavensward ,and they weren't very good they were most likely doing it wrong.

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Well said, it was almost impossible to mess up on Darks. they had one of the highest agro controls of all tanks. I think people actually tried harder to see if they could mess it up somehow but even then they barely lost agro and over all usefulness.

the way I see and feel is the proper way to balance the classes on this game UTILITY VS DAMAGE. I also I agree that RED does not need so much of a nerf as much as the other need a buff.

-if it has lots of "USEFUL" raid iutility ( pt buffs, pt mitigation, raise, cures, tp or mp region etc...) then it should have the lowest dmg (that's not to say it's damage should be just MCH bad because if not we are not doing anything) RDM

- medium utility (whichever of is between non and lots of utility) should be having more dmg than the utility buff but less than the one with no utility SMN

- little to no utility should by design be the DMG king all around because its damage IS its utility BLM

that being said I don't think RDM needs a nerf but more so the other 2 casters needs a buff to balance them out also the damage difference should NOT be as drastic or as close make either or not worth the trade. all classes should feel good and powerful or useful.

just like this WAR should be the SAM of tanks, BLM should be the SAM of casters. and that doesn't mean nerf the few classes that does feel good but buff the ones that feels bad.


on the note of SKILLS VS DAMAGE I believe this to be subjective but it's true that if a class is more "PUNISHING" as a trade it should reward more damage or utility MCH/SMN are the 2 I can think of right now needs this balance tweaking Personally I believe MCH should be dealing more dmg than BRD and SMN needs to clearly do more damage than RED but no more than BLM because of utility.

Just curious, does PLD need a nerf as well? It's the easiest to play of all tank jobs, it has top utility now. So it follows PLDs should get changed back to lowest damage, and lowest survivability, yes?

WHM is the eaiest healer to play. So it follows that it should be nerfed to have the lowest healing potential, yes?

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Just curious, does PLD need a nerf as well? It's the easiest to play of all tank jobs, it has top utility now. So it follows PLDs should get changed back to lowest damage, and lowest survivability, yes?

WHM is the eaiest healer to play. So it follows that it should be nerfed to have the lowest healing potential, yes?

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this is why imo SKILLS VS DAMAGE is very subjective and should not be the factor of balance. The only thing I agree is PUNISH VS REWARD if a class is very punishing then as a trade it should reward more damage.