SB is great, but are there any plans to shake up the endgame formula?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well that's easy to answer.

You can either repeat the same old content over and over for tokens or you can repeat the same old content over and over for RNG drops.

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I'm sure there are technically a few other methods, even if they amount to the same. For instance, there are many shades to said RNG (normative, personal loot, hidden DKP, etc.), or content may award achievement points (difference being simply that there may be multiple levels of currency rewards for a given dungeon, based on how it is played — i.e. WoW:WoD Challenge dungeons — or able to award more challenging content during certain times even when no longer modern — similar to WT, if it gave current and useful rewards) of a sort usable as currency for gear, RNG manipulation, or quests/missions/etc. that reward the gear.

But in the end, yes, of course. It all sadly boils down to how many hours per period the game will optimally require from you to maintain your position in terms of gear, etc., and with what range or standard deviation. Everything beyond that is content release speed.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

This is exactly what Yoshida was looking to create. He has said it before: he does not wish to create a game that requires you to log in everyday because he firmly believes you cannot reasonably do this. He wants people to be able to play other games, or socialize without feeling like they are bound to the game. Yoshida believes it makes the game boring. The issue at hand is people play MMOs like they are addicted and constantly need something to feed their addiction.

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He really should stop that way of thinking, right now. He's been doing the same song and dance for 4 years now and it's time to stop.
He should want people to play more and enjoy the game that he has. We're paying to play it anyways. If he feels that way, then he should make it F2P.
Often times, people will WANT to play more because of the sub but now. I'm just upset he's still playing safe.

To those who keep saying "Y U RUSSIAN?"
Well firstly, going at a handicapped Snails Pace does nothing.
What you want us to do? Wait until 7.0 to beat 4.0 final boss and take teeny baby steps from there on?
I'll just quit like I do whenever I get bored, and return when my interest in piqued.
Last time it was 8 months then I returned to SB. I'd hope of SB he'd try something new.
I mean, it doesn't take an Oracle to figure out what's on the agenda of upcoming content.
It's kinda sad really. I knew the pattern of 3.0 the entire time, hence me quitting that long.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

He really should stop that way of thinking, right now. He's been doing the same song and dance for 4 years now and it's time to stop.
He should want people to play more and enjoy the game that he has. We're paying to play it anyways. If he feels that way, then he should make it F2P.
Often times, people will WANT to play more because of the sub but now. I'm just upset he's still playing safe.

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your saying exactly what I said in my other post its just a difference in people who love the game and enjoy it for whatever reason and just people who are gamers. I love this game its the only one I play Im not leaving I have more an issue with the community than the method of which content is released.

You guys are being silly other games have far less content, and they keep people around because they force people into playing the story line over and over again because they lock the jobs per character. Me coming from swtor SE has way more content to do than that game had when I left so I dont see the issue here, Ive tried other games as well and most of them the idea of more content was simply run the same story line over and over again just on a different character an alt one.

Many people seem to compare this game to games that dont even exist and or wow which is prob the only game with more content, all other mmos seem to have way less content than this one. So I just dont understand all the gripping about this content cycle who does it better I never hear many people say who provides more content. If you dont raid savage included , play every job in the game craft gather, play the market board, study ur rotations master your jobs then thats a player issue not SE.

Hi! OP here. Having read through all these responses, I think a lot of folks have missed my point. My problem is not lack of content in SB. There was tons, and I feel I got my money's worth for what I spent on SB. My problem is with the recycled endgame formula that adds nothing new to the time-gated grind. FFXIV's endgame character progression formula is purely just doing the same assigned chores for a set amount of tokens that are capped for a certain time period over and over.

I hear you saying there are other things to do, and I agree! I participate in lots of those activities. However, what interests me most in MMORPGs is progressing my character, and I feel FFXIV's system for this at endgame leaves a lot to be desired... at least in my opinion. The fluff content will only hold my attention for a short time until other games seem more appealing. Some of you have pointed out that this is a developer decision and is by design. I accept that. I just wish it wasn't so.

Yeah, i hope they do something. The only thing in the game that takes any real time to complete is savage, and they have stripped out almost every reason to do it by putting in normal mode. If 4.1 is just more casual fluff content, I can see a lot of people not being very happy. Hopefully they have taken the pleas for more challenging 4 man content seriously and not just give us another potd where you go in and 1 shot everything in sight and beat the whole thing in 2 hours.

They did try new things and are usually trying to find content that sticks. Diadem was on of the first, but it was a disaster due to players always picking the most opt way instead of the sand box SE has in mind. Deep dungeon was the last successful content they had for heavensward and it did stick. They just need to update it to stormblood. I think it's just a gamble, sometimes they hit and sometimes they miss.

I agree 1000%. I just let my sub go a few days ago. I bought the CE edition of SB, got blocked by Raubahn savage for the entire EA period. (Giving me flashbacks to the 18 hour log in q's of ARR CE launch.

I have completed the MSQ for sb, loving it, my WHM main is full 310 gear.

I have zero interest in doing all the req's to even get flying in SB.

I gave up on crafting cause mandatory cross class skills. Want to be an epic goldsmith, better learn how to be a master chef first!

I just completed my delta's last night for the week after i resubbed, and i have no desire to log in now. Cause i know, any other classes I get to 60, will suck for another full month, until i can get my whm geared, then i can start another classes weekly lock out.

Honestly, these lock out just piss me off, teh housing pisses me off, the lack of being able to go back to old content for items pisses me off (cause not very many want to music farm old content, or minions).

I have had this problem with ff14 for a long time. Everything, "nifty" is super locked, not only behind weekly lock outs, but add in to that, group content, then add to that RNG!

I really feel like a hamster in a damn wheel when i log in to play now. Constantly being told I cannot do what I want to do, simply because SE wants my sub money to last longer.

Honestly, just let us play the game. Stop locking everything. Especially if not 100% of the profit from ff14 is not being put back into ff14 to make it better.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

They did try new things and are usually trying to find content that sticks. Diadem was on of the first, but it was a disaster due to players always picking the most opt way instead of the sand box SE has in mind.

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i wish they would bring a diadem for only 4 and / or 8 people and remove the flying completely. too many people on the map who zerged the monsters to death and being able to skip the whole thing by just flying through the air destroyed the content.

I really hope that with the rest of SB they finally try to get away from old patterns and try something new (but more thought out than Diadem..). They played it save for their first expansion but there is a time where you have to go out of your comfort zone and try something new. Lets hope that Eureka is at least a bit more fun than Diadem..

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I don't see people's obsession with potd I was in it like twice and never went back.

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It's boring as sin, but quick exp for DPS. Maybe some people truly enjoy it, but I only suffered with it for the quick queues.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

It's boring as sin, but quick exp for DPS. Maybe some people truly enjoy it, but I only suffered with it for the quick queues.

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Some people use it because they refuse to do roulettes due to "PUGs sucking and not knowing the game"...or getting a few bad groups and swearing that all are the same. I prefer my roulettes over POTD because it gives way more EXP, and gear to help me more.

2 words. BLITZ. BALL.

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Originally Posted by Caelum_Dragguell

2 words. BLITZ. BALL.

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eehhh...I don't know. wasn't totally into the original myself.

The formula works, for most so no real reason to change it.

1) Gather
2) Enjoy gathering
3) Gather so much
4) Make lots of profits
5) Take over gathering markets
6) Rip crafters off because you can
7) Invest in lots of items with the gil you made to make more profit
8) Make enough gil to the point where you can completely disrupt markets
9) Transform into a giant sadist
10) Disrupt markets because you can and it makes you smile
11) Don't forget the 15k red script grind

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Originally Posted by Fonkyama

World quests like WoW would be a nice addition.

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WQ's are literally Fates except they give actual end-game benefits that has caused massive burnout for its player base just like it did here when we had to do Atma farming(nobody liked fates after that).

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Originally Posted by Kallera

eehhh...I don't know. wasn't totally into the original myself.

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Don't worry, people will wing it for about 2 weeks and never return to it.
Because every other side show attraction fails in this game.
UNLESS, perhaps make it more community involved by making
where you have teams and you can cheer and watch them from the sidelines.
Now that would be pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

They did try new things and are usually trying to find content that sticks. Diadem was on of the first, but it was a disaster due to players always picking the most opt way instead of the sand box SE has in mind. Deep dungeon was the last successful content they had for heavensward and it did stick. They just need to update it to stormblood. I think it's just a gamble, sometimes they hit and sometimes they miss.

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Diadem wasn't a disaster because players found out how to optimize. It flopped because it was nothing more than a thoughtless FATE grind with an RNG boss fight you could literally sit around doing nothing and still trigger. If SE wants players to enjoy their sand box, make better sand boxes.

SE needs to just get away form this "under thumb" crappy limited model they use now. You can play ALL the classes on a single toon, but you can only gear a single class out per month with raid gear, limited scripts means same for gather/crafting. Of which i refuse to do anymore cause mandatory cross class crafting. Want to be a master goldsmith, better learn to be a master chef too!

Sadly, after being in game on and off since arr launch (19 hour log in q's!) When my sub runs out in a month, I am not resubbing. If I want to no life the game cause I am on vacation, or the weather is too hot/cold to really go anywhere. That is MY choice. MY choice to spend it with in game friends. Not log in for one night, grind my gear tokens, and log out for the week. NOT when I am paying a sub for it.

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Originally Posted by Sylvaneste

Of which i refuse to do anymore cause mandatory cross class crafting. Want to be a master goldsmith, better learn to be a master chef too

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Except you don't have to actually level anything except goldsmith if you want, you can buy the ingredients that you can't make. It encourages people to trade things/gil. Maybe there is a weaver that needs goldsmith materials. You can sell to him to buy the materials you need for goldsmithing.

This game is being extremely generous by allowing you to max out every crafter. Very few MMOs even let you do that. Crafting is beyond easy in this game.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Except you don't have to actually level anything except goldsmith if you want, you can buy the ingredients that you can't make. It encourages people to trade things/gil. Maybe there is a weaver that needs goldsmith materials. You can sell to him to buy the materials you need for goldsmithing.

This game is being extremely generous by allowing you to max out every crafter. Very few MMOs even let you do that. Crafting is beyond easy in this game.

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It is not about getting the materials, materials are easy peasy to get. It is the cross class skills required to pull off high end crafting.

Steady hand 2
Hasty Touch
Muscle memory

These are all Cooking skills.

I always feel the need to ask...

What would you rather have as opposed to what we have now?

The only thing that really, truly bothers me still is the whole gear situation. I can hardly remember HW launch so I'm not sure if they did something similar, but when I saw there was no cap on Verity tomes, I got super excited only to be informed later on that this would be a temporary thing and we would be back to weekly caps in a few weeks. When you play multiple jobs like I do, the lack of a weekly cap is relaxing. I don't need to worry about logging on every week or doing my dailies. I can play how I want to play because I can gear up at any time. When there is a cap in a place, you almost feel compelled to log on just to get stuff done so you can keep al your jobs geared.

This problem only multiplies when you throw in gear upgrade tokens which I assume are still going to be a thing? And like...can we as a community sit down and talk about this for a second? How was there not an enormous outrage over the way HW gear upgrading was handled? When you could finally upgrade Shire gear, you had to run all THREE 24-MAN RAIDS to get the tokens needed to upgrade ONE piece of gear of which there are TWELVE pieces of gear PER JOB. Why is this okay? I understand they wanted to keep all the raids relevant, but this seemed like overkill.

To top it all off, the development team has some weird fascination with putting out all the great looking gear, but then not letting you dye it until you jump through a bunch of hoops after waiting for 3 months, if they let you dye it at all. I actually think a lot of the AF3 sets are great and would love to wear them, but once again, I'm not a fan of the default colors. And once again, we won't be able to dye them until whenever they deem us worthy. I hope they allow us to dye it in the patch next week, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they made us wait until 4.1.

I'm not sure if the devs read the feedback here or not, but I really hope they do.

I want to echo the OP's thoughts.

Once you get to 70 and complete the story, gear up, do ex primals, do Omega.. (all of which can be done in the span of a couple weeks) you're really not left with much else to do, in many forms.

I understand lockout out power progression to an extent, but you need to give players some incentive to do things. There needs to be many more carrots than there currently are. If we can't gain power, at least let us work towards cosmetics. Whether it be gear or mounts or pets.. I don't know, something.

I also feel that the outdoor zones are vastly underused. I felt this was the case in HW was well. For DoW, they are useful for hunt marks and rare FATEs. That is all. There is no reason to explore, there is no good reason to stick around in them, they just feel so incredibly empty.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

WQ's are literally Fates except they give actual end-game benefits that has caused massive burnout for its player base just like it did here when we had to do Atma farming(nobody liked fates after that).

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I wanted to reply to this, because I also believe a version of WoW's world quest system would be extremely beneficial to XIV.

In many ways, world quests are NOT like FATEs.

World quests work like so:
Each day, there are certain active quests in each zone.
You go to the area, do your work by yourself or with others, contribute similar to a fate.
Fill up your personal WQ bar, and then you get your reward.

There is also a bonus in which one area each day will give you a special reward if you do a certain number of WQs in that zone, adding even more incentive to jump out and do them.

The main difference here is that players can pick and choose when to do these world quests, where as FATEs come and go, have timers, and have contribution shared between everyone that is active there within the time limit. FATEs are vastly more restrictive in this sense.

FATEs are honestly starting to look very dated.

One of my main gripes with endgame gear, and gear in general, is that having the same dull stats on every piece of gear is not interesting at all. I'm so tired of the next level of gear progression being just some more crit, ss, det... Why not gear that enhances traits or abilities, or affects auto attack, or something. Gear is so boring in this game.

I also think some kind of merit point system with points gained similar to experience points would be good for endgame that allowed us to further develop our max level job by acquiring enhancements to our current abilities and traits.

But yeah, endgame is so boring.

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I always feel the need to ask...

What would you rather have as opposed to what we have now?
(0)

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Personally? I'd rather have this v2. It didn't have this treadmill flaw. If XIV's endgame & gear progression were like it's predecessor I would be hooked forever. SB has had some fun elements but SE is not going to change endgame until it causes the game to fail, and, that will likely never happen as only a fraction of the players even care about it beyond the easy mode raid. Unfortunately, a horizontal model is literally out of the question for FFXIV and so it will always continue to be a gated gear treadmill only worth playing right after patches if even then.

Personally, I'm just playing it until Destiny 2.

People asked for horizontal progression since before 1.0 release but that's not what the dev team intends on doing. The want the treadmill because it allows for a constant stream of rewards and every patch they can release bigger and bigger carrots. It's much easier and more sustainable because vertical progression can continue forever whereas horizontal progression starts to have limits.

But still, would at least be nice to have horizontal progression within level caps. So 4.0 gear would be just as valuable as 4.2 gear, etc.

Yea, I didn't to play much during release so I thought I was going to get far behind. Last Saturday I finally hit 70 and farmed Susano and Lakshmi all day. Now I'm fully caught up and at ilvl 316 and I feel like I have nothing to do but level another job. I wish I felt like I had a reason I could keep playing my RDM instead of leveling another class. At least Destiny 2 beta is out next week to break up the staleness.

I really hate to be this person but there was something that said Stormblood would have 3x the budget of Heavensward and VIRTUALLY NOTHING in the game has changed. What's the point of an expansion if all you do is clone Heavensward with a new set of paint? I expected more questlines in terms of sidequests to get unique gear! I expected that maybe this tomestone stuff would be gone and we'd have other ways to get unique gear. Make ex primals drop full sets of gear... uniquely themed with the fight. You did it well with the HW tomestone of lore gear with the primal sets. Can we do something more like that but without this tokens nonsense? I grow tired of doing the same SAME SAME god damn things in the game. I have not touched a roulette in forever because verity is pointless. The same crap is coming upon us on the 18th, lol. I hope people enjoy waiting 7 weeks for a weapon that could have just been locked on a hard fight but nope all they do is savage for a unique weapon and primals. It's boring and I dont see myself lasting.

I love this game, I really do but I can even see that this formula is dull as heck.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

People asked for horizontal progression since before 1.0 release but that's not what the dev team intends on doing.

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Oh, I am well aware they don't intend on doing it. Was aware of that the second 2.0 dropped. 1.0 was horizontal, and while parts were extremely broken, at least it's progression had a high ceiling that only a handful of players even reached. Nobody just got their relics/darklite a couple weeks after patch and then didn't play until reset like they do now. Most of us who played it, were on 4-5 days a week trying for our speed run tokens, doing hamlet defense, running primals and trying to beat Rivenroad HM. If we weren't doing that we were trying to quad/penta meld god gear (that exploded on fail).

I think the content (aside from the repetitive formula) is great in ARR+. The problem is purely the total lack of diversion from the tomes > primals > EM Raid > HM Raid. The only thing that requires any kind of investment is perfecting the HM Dance and maybe relic which is marginally better than raid weapons if even. Ultimately, there's nothing worth investing time in and no lasting achievements. This is why people call glamour the endgame, its the only thing you will ever retain. Horizontal progression as done in the past does hit some limitations, but there is no reason it couldn't be hybridized. Couple that with variations in how endgame actually functions, take XI's Dynamis vs Salvage for example, two separate expansions, two separate endgames that were entirely different in almost every way (ignoring all the other endgame activities) and it just had a lot more depth and replay value. You weren't stuck doing the same 1-3 things every damn day for years on end.

Here's the way I see it. The dev team probably works very hard and they work smart from a business standpoint. But, they don't invest anything into original ideas or clever concepts that players will truly enjoy beyond their first few visits because hey, why waste time on something that is going to become irrelevant? That would just make bad business sense. They churn out assets for dungeons/dungeon revisions. Stick to the same mechanics, stick in a super hard boss with strict "checks" in an arena, design complex patterns of telegraph/click/phase change mechanics, sprinkle in some iLVL requirements and tomes and call it a patch. At this point, I don't see a way out of that pattern because the expectations have been set and it would crush the community to change it now.

and here i am still trying to complete my anima relic weapons...

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Originally Posted by Kazama

But, they don't invest anything into original ideas or clever concepts that players will truly enjoy beyond their first few visits because hey, why waste time on something that is going to become irrelevant? That would just make bad business sense.

They churn out assets for dungeons/dungeon revisions.

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I see a contradiction.

i agree, i also stayed away for more than 2 years, and i returned with a new account, was at middle HW and all that time i saw my 2 friends doing the same everyday, and all those memories about the same formula came to my mind and i pretty much quit the game. i still have some days but i will not renew my sub!

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Originally Posted by Kazama

But, they don't invest anything into original ideas or clever concepts that players will truly enjoy beyond their first few visits because hey, why waste time on something that is going to become irrelevant?

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I don't think they really ask themselves that question truth be told, because the entire MSQ is exactly that - a one and done deal that instantly becomes irrelevant after doing it once. And that's quite a bit of effort that goes there, with all the cutscenes, dialogues, special fights, animations and increasing custom models.

And if they're wasting that much effort on a one-time affair, yeah, it's likely to assume they don't really care how quickly their content gets devalued.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

So far:

1. Raids
2. Dungeons
3. Aquapolis
4. Palace Of The Dead
5. Hunts
6. Fates
7. Trials
8. Exploratory Missions
9. Relics
10. Craft Scripts
11. Could even include Gold Saucer(for some people)

Eureka is coming something like XI HNM, and new relic armor similar to weapons. Though I don't know how an open world NM system is going to go down when you see the Ixion thing going on right now.


I'm confused, I don't see a lack of content. Maybe I am misunderstanding something?

Do you mean like the actual content or the means of acquiring drops?

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i think he means the means of acquiring drops. which is pretty much the same formula.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I see a contradiction.

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Then you didn't thoroughly read or your reading comprehension is sub par. Here are the two points side by side.

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But, they don't invest anything into original ideas or clever concepts that players will truly enjoy beyond their first few visits

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They churn out assets for dungeons/dungeon revisions.

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By invest, I was referring to really thinking about how the content is utilized and invest effort into that thought process, not the creation of a new skin for the same dungeon routine.

I guess I’m. It understanding the complaint. Is the complaint there aren’t enough things to do (clearly there are a lot of things to do), or that running stuff gives you tokens instead of random, class-locked gear like Vanilla WoW (because we all know how well THAT worked out)?

In ARR, the Primal Ex versions dropped weapons, is that more what you want? Now try drop tokens, so people with bad luck can get weapons/gear. Or do you want them to drop both? Wouldn’t that make your capping situation worse?

Or do you want the caps removed and 100 I level spreads per patch, complete with the insane stat-flatiron that would bring?

I guess my question is: What exactly is it you want?

its been month the game is dry of content,i would say around 4month,for me rabanastre and the new dungein were "cool new stuff" finished in 1h ,the END of teh new content,na realy,with all the money they are amking with the game,they could at least work a bit lot more on it

As far i know they are interested in doing harder 4 player content