Silly tank melds

Direct Hit is better, but it's secondary stats so whatever who cares. Do you expect these people to be racing for world first? They might even change Tenacity in 4.05, making these guys magically ahead of the game and us with egg on our faces and Direct Hit materia down the drain (though you'll still want some amount of it just to be able to deal Direct Hits/Crits).

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Wasn't it proven that stacking 1k-1.5k tenacity results in 5% less damage recieved and 5% more damage dealt or something like that? Not exactly stellar but far from worthless.

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It's around that, yeah. It could be higher, but 5% for 1k-1.5k is pretty good considering you only need a few melds to reach it, if even.

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Originally Posted by GDFletcher

When I build tank stats I do not think about "DPS" that isn't what I am there for, I am there to stand, take a beating and keep the mob/boss from looking at the squishies that are doing the damage.

I have never subscribed to have tonne of HP because the healers will be wasting more mana than they need to try keep you up, look at the Warriors/Dark Knights having to rely fully on HP builds and if for any reason their gear isn't up to scratch the healer is spending most of the fight playing a yoyo to keep them up.

I run my Paladin on a mixture of Determination and Tenacity atm, I have the older mentality from games such as WoW, TOR, FW, PWI were tanks literally were built as the name suggests.

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The 'old' meta for WoW was actually Stamina stacking. And before it was the meta for everyone, it was the Bear Druid thing. The classic through maybe Cata era Bear Druid was basically like the Warrior here - a mountain of health that served to give healers a 'time' buffer. In Classic and Burning Crusade - this was 'it' for their mitigation. Just a big pool of health (it kept them out of being raid tanks outside of those players who could get to crit immunity regardless). By 'old' I mean since 2008. Before that the meta was '102.4%'.

The 'meta' for most tanks for the last three expansions of WoW has been to stack haste and crit. Mitigation is now 'built in' to the stats in WoW - no more crits or crushing blows, no more 102.4%...

The whole 'active mitigation' concept started with the Monk in Pandaville... and has now been copied onto the other tanks. But this concept is 'new / old' - it is similar but not exact to what Warriors did back in classic / BC, when they were the only 'raid viable' tank (they actually weren't, but the other tanks were "seen" by the community the way FFXIV is now starting to think of it's Axe-Warrior).

But in general I agree with your post's objective... just... it is not the 'old' mentality you think it is.

I like my tanks to focus on mitigation and threat/enmity.

The last time I played a 'DPS Tank' was City of Villains. The Bruiser from 2004 onward. Sort of also Guild Wars 1 Warrior - top DPS, best armor, and that game had 'body blocking' where an NPC could not move through you... so we 'tanked' by standing in narrow passages with a line of warriors like football defensive linemen, and the rest of the group behind us. Usually took 2-3 people to pull it off...

"DPS Tank" just... doesn't feel right. It isn't what a tank is there for. If you like DPSing... there is a role for that. It's called DPS...

So I welcome all of this 'stay in tank stance' stuff.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Wasn't it proven that stacking 1k-1.5k tenacity results in 5% less damage recieved and 5% more damage dealt or something like that? Not exactly stellar but far from worthless.

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Yeah, I mean, 5% reduction is something but I don't know how many healer GCDs it would save. 5% is 1/4th of an actual cooldown. Maybe it has potential to become stronger in the future though. It's something, just not something I'd bother melding.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Honestly I feel like they should just remove the damage+ component and buff the damage mitigation component.

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But the problem is it wouldn't benefit off tanks. Personally I think having/needing a second tank in 8-man raids and trials is stupid in the first place, but I see it as a result of SE's lackluster design (tank swaps & passive mitigation).

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Originally Posted by Velthice

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, ... choosing only to heal ...

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This is the only trinity based MMO I have seen where tanks are expected to out DPS the DPS, and healers are expected to do any DPS at all...

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Wasn't it proven that stacking 1k-1.5k tenacity results in 5% less damage recieved and 5% more damage dealt or something like that? Not exactly stellar but far from worthless.

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Wait, as in....

...

...not one, but both healers have to heal less and could potentially contribute more DPS? So it becomes more a question of: Do I stack direct hit for my personal DPS? Or do I stack tenacity for higher raid DPS? Everyone: Direct hit.

It's funny how majority of the community seems to talk about meta, without ever stepping foot into a savage raid and only ends up doing extreme primals and expert roulette.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Wait, as in....

...

...not one, but both healers have to heal less and could potentially contribute more DPS? So it becomes more a question of: Do I stack direct hit for my personal DPS? Or do I stack tenacity for higher raid DPS? Everyone: Direct hit.

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5% less damage taken isn't really a raid DPS increase. It usually doesn't even amount to a single healing GCD.

Reading this thread has confirmed my decision to start melding tenacity. It may not be "optimal", or "following the meta" but it's the best choice for my play style.

u guys know u can make multiple builds right? Make urself a DH build and a tenacity build. See the difference for urself. And if they change how the secondary stats scale ull be ready

People should meld intelligence, considering the low IQ many people have by debating stuff like this

Hi guys.

Based on the calculation that I search. 1000 Tenacity give approximately 5% of defense.

Since the majority of tanks meld STR in they accessories, you have 13 slots to put Tenacity Materia.

13 x 40 = 520.

IF your gear don't give the cap of tenacity already, the total can be even lower.

with 520 more tenacity, you will gain 2.5% more defense.

If your healer think that will make a diference, than YES you have to meld it, if not, I don't see why not put a materia to increase DPS.

Remember, a fast clear means less healing and less damage taken.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This is the only trinity based MMO I have seen where tanks are expected to out DPS the DPS, and healers are expected to do any DPS at all...

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The thing is though, that\\'s how the game is designed. In other mmos tanks typically can\\'t come anywhere close to touching even terrible dps and healers even less so.

But in this game the dynamic is different. Tanks and healers can put out very respectable numbers, around 60-80% that of a full fledged dps. Barring some incredible rework, and I\\'m not talking about locking str accessories, I mean a complete from the ground up rework of the game and how encounters work, that\\'s always going to be the case, tanks and healers are always going to have very potent damage. To disregard that, or worse, to actively rally against this fact because "that\\'s not how it works in other mmos" is just an incredible degree of stubbornness and well, kinda silly.

Edit: I removed the last paragraph that was here, it was rude. My point is though that ffxiv is not other mmos. The tank and healer role function differently here than what others are traditionally used to.

People are going to play how they want to play... Some people will be fine with it, others won't... No amount of arguing or poignant advice is going to change that. Elite will be elite, norms will be norm and bads will be bad unless they decide to change. Just remember, this is the Internet so change is bad. We don't like change.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...40/666/89d.gif

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Originally Posted by Velthice

The thing is though, that\\'s how the game is designed.

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This is a point worth reiterating.

I would love nothing more than to stack Tenacity and never leave Shield Oath. I would gladly trade all my DPS for survivability. That's the style of tank I would love to play.

But I don't, because the game isn't built that way.

Whether I like it or not, the current game design favors a different style. If this was a single player game, I would say "screw that" and do my own thing. But, it's not. I have teammates, and they are counting on me to be good at my job.

Those of us talking about optimization don't get our jollies from top parses (not all of us anyway). We realize that, like any team activity, you're expected to perform so that your team can succeed. I wouldn't half-ass any other team game, video or otherwise, unless I was playing purely with friends and we expected to goof off.

Edit: I'm talking about tanking here since that's my main, but the point is meant to be general.

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Originally Posted by AngelyLowell

Remember, a fast clear means less healing and less damage taken.

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Even on the low returns estimate of 1% per 200, you're only looking at a gap of .8%. Roughly 24 DPS at the highest levels of skill and group coordination.
In almost every single aspect of the game you will never notice a DPS gap between a Tenacity tank and a Direct Hit tank.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Even on the low returns estimate of 1% per 200, you're only looking at a gap of .8%. Roughly 24 DPS at the highest levels of skill and group coordination.
In almost every single aspect of the game you will never notice a DPS gap between a Tenacity tank and a Direct Hit tank.

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If that is true, there is no much reason for a DHit Tank, since we gain for defense and heals.

I'm not very mathematically oriented but I do like to push as much damage as I can while being safe and not overly taxing healers when I tank. That said, I easily notice 2 exclamation points at the end of my numbers when I meld direct hit. Don't need to be a math guru to notice those, but with tenacity I cannot for the life of me tell the difference. I also know that since tenacity comes naturally on tank gear and we all seem to agree that melding strength on to vit accessories because it doesn't come naturally it only seems reasonable to meld for what we don't get normally. If I'm going to spend time or money on melding a stat I'd prefer to see tangible proof that it was worth it, for me direct hit is exactly that. As for playing the meta, meta doesn't really matter but if it truly is agreed upon that one stat is objectively better than the other and you're only doing it for your own personal satisfaction how is that any better than tanks walking around in full strength accessories because "muhdeeps" that people seem to criticize?

I've melded Tenacity as an experiment. I wanted to see what the results were and how it affected my gameplay. Nothing wrong with playing around with melds for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

I've melded Tenacity as an experiment. I wanted to see what the results were and how it affected my gameplay. Nothing wrong with playing around with melds for yourself.

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Well of course, I melded for tenacity at first as well because I hoped it would simplify substats and that they actually made a tank stat worth using. I saw no notable improvement in offense or defense whatsoever, when I melded direct hit I noticed I direct hit more often. Simple as that really..

I can understand not redoing melds on gear you're going to replace but if tenacity is really objectively worse than direct hit and people start melding it on to their new gear (the new locked tome/omega gear) I would have to wonder why..

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

Well of course, I melded for tenacity at first as well because I hoped it would simplify substats and that they actually made a tank stat worth using. I saw no notable improvement in offense or defense whatsoever, when I melded direct hit I noticed I direct hit more often. Simple as that really..

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Muh big numbuhs!!!

seeing 8581!! does not mean better. just because you personally didn't notice a difference after piddling around in tenacity doesn't mean it wasn't there.

That's confirmation bias.

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Originally Posted by AngelyLowell

If that is true, there is no much reason for a DHit Tank, since we gain for defense and heals.

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The healing component to Tenacity seems to have a different rate than the Damage output and mitigation. To the point where it honestly looks like it just is not working at all.
The main reason to take Direct Hit is that it is the highest DPS gain we can manage and will never be on our gear naturally. The point I have been making is just that, when only the highest end players will really benefit from the gap between the stats, calling Tenacity melds silly is kind of insane when most tanks are going to be in the DF more than any premade and organized groups and have no idea what sort of healers they're going to be stuck with so they opt for a bit more mitigation for a low dps drop.

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I saw no notable improvement in offense or defense whatsoever, when I melded direct hit I noticed I direct hit more often. Simple as that really..

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The problem here is that Tenacity damage just looks like damage, Tenacity crit damage looks like crit damage, while Direct Hit damage looks like damage, and Direct Crit damage looks like DAMAGE!!. Even if the numbers come out to be really close Direct Hit's unique display is designed to be noticed.

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

Well of course, I melded for tenacity at first as well because I hoped it would simplify substats and that they actually made a tank stat worth using. I saw no notable improvement in offense or defense whatsoever, when I melded direct hit I noticed I direct hit more often. Simple as that really..

I can understand not redoing melds on gear you're going to replace but if tenacity is really objectively worse than direct hit and people start melding it on to their new gear (the new locked tome/omega gear) I would have to wonder why..

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But I see no problem with a person doing it for testing purposes. Now, if I saw someone weeks later still walking around with it I might have to ask, but if I queued with a random tank who had it it wouldn't bother me. I find people learn better from experience than if they're told what to do.

Stuff I noticed from this thread and other tank complaint threads:

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/a.../Notentank.png

Seriously, though:

• Tenacity is still being tested, no one really knows the rate of return of tenacity versus Direct Hit, Critical Hit, etc. Just because Tenacity does fill multiple things, its return on investment may not be worth it in the long run without testing.
• The whole X seconds saved point is ignoring the timed saved from being able to skip mechanics which could add minutes to the run. Whenever someone states that "Well you only save 7 seconds! It's not worth making the healer work hard!" that person is leaving out the opportunity cost. That healer may have to work harder having to heal through mechanics that people may not execute versus a tank DPSing with DPS melds.
• Just because you waited in queue for a while and "paid into the system", doesn't grant you a run without risk from different playstyles. If you didn't bring a tank that fits your style, that is your fault.
• Keep telling tanks to play DPS if they want to "DPS", I am sure there are no negative repercussions from telling tanks that. /s

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Originally Posted by Sanctify

It seems like every tank i come across has tenacity melds. To this I have two questions. What are you smoking? And can i have some?

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OR MAYBE they are tank who actually know what the role of tank is! Little thought for all those tank duo in EX never using tank stance!

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Originally Posted by Arutan

OR MAYBE they are tank who actually know what the role of tank is! Little thought for all those tank duo in EX never using tank stance!

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whoever is offtanking never needs to be in MT stance, besides on swaps on susano...provoke can place at MT's aggro very easily and only needs to be done twice in lakshmi

It's so sad that some people in the thread say a player is being wilfully negligent and actively choosing sub-optimal play.

If I'm melding INT to my tank gear, I'm being wilfully negligent and actively choosing sub-optimal play. Tenacity is obviously, clearly, undoubtedly, any-reasonable-player-will-say, "a tank stat". How is it when the game clearly tells you that this stat is a tank stat, that choosing it is being wilfully negligent? Being actively sub-optimal?

Since when was FFXIV a game where you have to keep up on the latest theorycrafting and analysis or else you are wilfully negligent?

This is really sad.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

snip

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As of this moment, I wouldn't fault someone for not knowing how good stats are (or trusting what we do think). Data is preliminary, dervy hasn't put out his numbers, nothing is hard and fast yet.

If fully geared Tenacity is a 5% swing in Damage given, Damage recieved, and self healing, then I see that as a 15% swing in the pendulum.

Honestly if you're not so concerned about the damage I receive then let me take Grit off when I pull big.

I don't see any problem with Tanks doing their job AND doing a good damage.

A tank that just tank, it's cool too, they mitigate damage and use his skills to help the party to survive.

But tank that just hold aggro and don't use any of his skills, leaving everything in the hands of the healer, they need to improve.

The tanks who thinks they are DPS, they are a problem too, they simple focus on DPS and forget to use his defensive skills.

Example: I went V4 with a OT with STR acc, and he died in Thunder III because he don't have enough VIT (and voke without tank stance). That is a bad tank in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

whoever is offtanking never needs to be in MT stance, besides on swaps on susano...provoke can place at MT's aggro very easily and only needs to be done twice in lakshmi

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When I say duo tank, I eman none of them both intend to use tank stance because they wanna dps and us dps just die as a result. And then it is our fault.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

• Tenacity is still being tested, no one really knows the rate of return of tenacity versus Direct Hit, Critical Hit, etc. Just because Tenacity does fill multiple things, its return on investment may not be worth it in the long run without testing.
• The whole X seconds saved point is ignoring the timed saved from being able to skip mechanics which could add minutes to the run. Whenever someone states that "Well you only save 7 seconds! It's not worth making the healer work hard!" that person is leaving out the opportunity cost. That healer may have to work harder having to heal through mechanics that people may not execute versus a tank DPSing with DPS melds.
• Just because you waited in queue for a while and "paid into the system", doesn't grant you a run without risk from different playstyles. If you didn't bring a tank that fits your style, that is your fault.
• Keep telling tanks to play DPS if they want to "DPS", I am sure there are no negative repercussions from telling tanks that. /s

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1.) The fact isn't that Tenacity is untested, it's that all secondary stat weights are not known at 100%. this truth is not a +1 for melding for things other than tenacity.
2.) The "X Seconds" thing isn't ignoring that. It's moot. The ONLY people who care about that are savage raiders. There is no content in 4.0 which is skipped which requires specific tank DPS numbers. As such, all you're saving is seconds.
3.) I don't think anyone is arguing that. We all know that the roulette is a crap shoot.
4.) You give what people say too much credit. Tanks will keep tanking if they like it. they won't if they don't.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

4.) You give what people say too much credit. Tanks will keep tanking if they like it. they won't if they don't.

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Well, you aren't wrong. They won't stop tanking. They'll just stop doing it with randoms.

Either way your queue gets less tanks.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Well, you aren't wrong. They won't stop tanking. They'll just stop doing it with randoms.

Either way your queue gets less tanks.

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My que? I'm a tank

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Originally Posted by Klongol

My que? I'm a tank

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Were you intentionally skipping the point, or..?

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Originally Posted by Klongol

1.) The fact isn't that Tenacity is untested, it's that all secondary stat weights are not known at 100%. this truth is not a +1 for melding for things other than tenacity.
2.) The "X Seconds" thing isn't ignoring that. It's moot. The ONLY people who care about that are savage raiders. There is no content in 4.0 which is skipped which requires specific tank DPS numbers. As such, all you're saving is seconds.
3.) I don't think anyone is arguing that. We all know that the roulette is a crap shoot.
4.) You give what people say too much credit. Tanks will keep tanking if they like it. they won't if they don't.

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1. I didn't state Tenacity wasn't tested, I said it was still being tested. Big difference. "Still being" implies that testing has started at some point ago in the past and the testing is continuing. I agree the secondary stat weights are not known 100% yet, but neither is TEN's weight 100% confirmed either. We also don't have how TEN's weight measures up to the other offensive secondaries' weights. It could turn out that TEN is the best secondary for tanks, but we don't know that for sure.
2. Most of the people who repeat the "X Seconds" mantra do not take into account the opportunity cost. They are parroting what others have stated without much thought to it. The mantra fits their bias. Also, stating that "only" people who are about that are savage raiders is false. I do care and I do not raid savage. I just want to deal with least amount of mechanics as possible (Collar from Griffon, Hiss from Lava Scorpion, etc.).
3. People are not arguing it, but is an underling tone to many of these Tank threads as of lately. There are those who do feel entitled to a risk free run, but they will not come out and say it. The people who are telling tanks to meld only TEN and sit with tank stance on 100% of the time are trying to reduce risk (or so they believe it will reduce risk). Those people are those who I believe want to reduce risk of failure caused by players because they feel they want a return on time they invested upfront (which would be the queue time plus the estimated time of an average event run). Which is understandable.
4. Right, or people who do like tanking will give up because they are done with being treated like crap for attempting to DPS. Also, what Jijifli stated above, they will stop doing randoms. Tanks on these forums already admit to doing it now.

Well, I had planned from the start of Stormblood to use V grade materia on my uncapped tome gear and wait until I started getting capped tome gear to put VI grade materia. Most definitely glad I did that.

It was also a given that I'd put STR materia on my right side gear. That settles that.

As for left side, now that I know I'm not getting Direct Hit on my actual gear, and I know exactly what returns I get from putting all 13 left side slots with Direct Hit, it's very tempting to do exactly that. Seeing as I'll do exactly what I've been doing in the past 3 years, in other words, anything but Savage, it's going to be :

1- Odd patch. Getting new capped tome gear.

2- Even patch. Upgrading tome gear via 24-man.

That means while my Direct Hit rate will remain roughly at 12% for all the 4.x series, all my other stats (STR, VIT, SkS,Ten,Crit,Det) will, give or take some adjustments, steadily increase. Seeing as I'll do anything but Savage content, I can't for the life of me see how people will actually notice a difference of DPS and survivability on that basis alone.

... Except if I start doing nothing but RoH combos and ignoring my cooldowns. That's an entirely different matter though! :)

Stuff like this is why the game needs to show percentages on secondary stats.

I mean WoW has done it for years, I don't know why the devs feel the need to be so cryptic about how their stats are weighted.

We shouldn't have to have people auto-attacking a dummy for hours (with a parser which you can't do on PS4) or trawling through forums to find out exactly how much benefit they are getting.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

4. Right, or people who do like tanking will give up because they are done with being treated like crap for attempting to DPS. Also, what Jijifli stated above, they will stop doing randoms. Tanks on these forums already admit to doing it now.

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Me personally, I refuse to tank a random now without someone I know with me. Otherwise I risk I risk 45 minute runs because, "Tanks shouldn't do any damage."

Hell. When I go rdm, the runs easily go much faster and smoother. When I went on ast? Or when I do half of my dungeons leveling tank? Slow... painful... kill me.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Why do people complain so much about what is supposedly "sub-optimal" when it makes little to no difference in normal, is not even really needed in hard/extreme, and only really comes into play in Savage (which most people will never do anyway)? Even if it were 1000 dps difference, it still wouldn't effect your daily roulette noticeably... The elitism in this community is just completely out of control...

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^ This...

Infact, in over 5 years, this is the first time I've ever come to the forums.. I've gotten loads of compliments, got some hair splitting victories doing the final blow with less than 1% hp left and everyone else wiped on my PLD. Had many people want to party with me again, and made many friends.

But apparently due to the elites on this forum I've been doing it all wrong, every last bit of it wrong for 5 years.. lol....

I don't meld gear, ever. Not once have I ever used materia.. I don't use food.. Ever.. Not once.. I never leave Shield Oath, unless OTing...

Yet I'm apparently an extremely good player, and a tank people want to have in their group... Go figure...

TLDR: Coming from a paladin MT who's apparently doing literally everything wrong.... You're literally arguing over straws here. None of it matters.. Except (Maybe) in savage which not many do anyway.