balance through Balance

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

People act like AST can guarantee 100% uptime on AoE Balance or something.

No, it's tied to RNG, and as such is subject to streaks where an AST isn't going to get even one AoE Balance the whole fight.

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It's not the ppl, it's the white mages; whom can't think so much since they are too occupied overhealing/afking. They want some kinda of buff then they can't be completely useless to their party.

u gon get nerfed and there's nothin' u can do bout it

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

It's not the ppl, it's the white mages; whom can't think so much since they are too occupied overhealing/afking. They want some kinda of buff then they can't be completely useless to their party.

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That's a mighty impressive strawman scapegoat you've built up, there.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

Although Earthly Star doesn't have cast time it's really nothing to count on if you need a quick heal. Even when it's already set up it takes time to explode and heal the target after you do the healing casting animation. It's a really good skill (even debatable that a bit OP due to potency) but certainly not an instant heal like Assize or the Scholar one.

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I use it on the smash after p2 swords, ukehl if it's up and thundercloud stacks. Place before it comes, detonate after the damage. In a real emergency I just place->detonate. Heals more than enough. Honestly I would class it as an instant. I understand what you're saying, I just don't think your point is completely right.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

If Balance is the only thing that makes people want to bring AST, then AST by definition is not balanced and would need to be adjusted, so Balance would have to be nerfed to even out the power of the job.

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It's like people forget that Astrologian had an entire history of issues that made it undesirable for raids, and not just "omg we couldn't get Balance a lot so that makes our state now completely justified". To wit, the problems with 3.0 AST were as follows:

-Noct Sect was garbage, and could in no way compete with SCH. I'd argue that it was because SCH was also a little OP and needed some nerfs, but some might say it was just that Noct Sect needed a buff. Either way, upon AST's inception it was a terrible stance that pretty much no one used except out of dual AST parties in DF where one had to begrudgingly take it because AST regens didn't stack.

-Initial heal potencies were about 20 lower across the board. Their MP costs were lower to compensate, and truth be told I never actually felt like the BASE heal potencies were an issue, but this really stuck in people's craw for some reason and led to a perception of the job being weak. (I think had they kept the base heals the same and fixed some of the other issues below they probably would have been fine. Just me, though.)

-They didn't have a throughput cooldown. Seriously, do people forget about this? They didn't have a 30% healing throughput increase like Divine Seal or Fey Illumination at their launch, which meant they really lacked healing "oomph" in cases where their cohealer or party weren't up to par.

-Lightspeed used to reduce the potency of healing magic too. Somebody at SE goofed HARD on that. IIRC it was one of the first aspects of AST that was adjusted.

-Balance was only 10% potency and lasted for 15 seconds. Now before you go, "aha! see! balance HAS to be OP or else we're useless!" bear in mind that this was ALSO in conjunction with the rest of the AST issues I listed above. There are a few other caveats to the card system too which I'll list below that made obtaining and using AOE Balance pretty difficult, if not nigh on impossible for AST at first. So in my opinion the actual STRENGTH of the Balance card wasn't an issue, but its infrequency and AST's lackluster performance in the healing department really didn't make that 5% extra DPS boost worth it for most raid groups. (And since those issues are clearly fixed now, THAT is why I think Balance needs a reduction in its power once more, if not just taken out completely.)

-Shuffle was on a 120 second cooldown, and could give you the SAME card you were trying to get rid of. Compare it to now, where it's basically on the same cooldown as Draw and won't give you the same card anymore (and was hence renamed "Redraw" to reflect that). This gives you essentially a 20% chance of drawing Balance now if you didn't get it on you first draw. It also allows you to SUPER easily get a Spire or Ewer for the AOE Royal Road effect (40% chance to get either of those if you don't get one on the first draw).

-Spread was on a 180 second cooldown. So once you had that almighty Balance, and used it, if you drew another one right after you had to use it on single target. Obviously it was better than getting jack squat, or endless Spears, but you couldn't reliably chain AOE Balance back-to-back like it's theoretically possible to do now. Spread is now on a thirty-second cooldown like Draw, so once you use your Balance from Spread by the time Draw is up again (assuming you drew right as you used the Balance AOE), then you can instantly store another one with a very minor (we're talking 1 second here) delay.

-Collective Unconscious only gave the 10% damage down in Nocturnal, and the regen in Diurnal. Not 100% sure on this but I think the regen was wussier too. So on top of it being stupidly restrictive with the no-movement nonsense, it also didn't do anything special that Asylum or Sacred Soil couldn't do (with less drawbacks). The regen would also cancel when you canceled the Collective effect, so that was a further kick in the teeth.


It's all that COMPOUND crap that made ASTs an undesirable choice for raiding during Gordias, not just the weaker strength of the Balance card at their launch. SE in their infinite wisdom took the buff bat and pretty much launched all of those issues into the stratosphere, INCLUDING buffing the hell out of Balance (now it's 20% damage up and lasts for THIRTY SECONDS WTF), as well as buffing Lumi Aether so that it was miles ahead of Shroud of Saints and upping their base heal potencies to be equal of that of WHM/SCH. Fixing a FEW of the issues (mostly the card stuff and Lightspeed/healing throughput cooldown) would have been enough to make them competitive IMO, but they went completely overboard and now that people are so used to AST's ridiculous ease of use and power the idea of nerfs makes them extremely uncomfortable for whatever reason, instead of determined to increase their personal ability and deal with any adjustments that might come.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

-Noct Sect was garbage, and could in no way compete with SCH. I'd argue that it was because SCH was also a little OP and needed some nerfs, but some might say it was just that Noct Sect needed a buff. Either way, upon AST's inception it was a terrible stance that pretty much no one used except out of dual AST parties in DF where one had to begrudgingly take it because AST regens didn't stack.

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I'm going to agree with your post, but specify that rather than Noct sect being hot garbage, it was more the fact that the AST base kit just couldn't perform the same role as SCH. AST is in many ways a clone of WHM at heart with Luminous Aether and Ewer refresh as its only mana regen, and spammable DPS that steadily ran the class out of mana with poor means of recovery. While a SCH could go through their low-cost DoT rotation for days with little mana issue both AST and WHM fit a more "burst DPS" idea, and with fewer ogcd options it was always riskier for them to remain in cleric stance for as long a time simply due to class design. That said while some steps were made to give AST some SCH competition such as Disable, Aspected Benefic being instant cast, Aspected Helios having better shield effects than Succor, and Malefic II being stronger than Broil, these benefits didn't make up for the playstyle deficiencies from an off-healer perspective despite the card benefits. It still played like a WHM with even worse mana management despite its lower-cost heals.

Additionally Noct stance in particular was "ok" if paired with a WHM or another AST and "good" after it got a potency boost attached, but it's always been trash when paired with a SCH due to shields not stacking like their diurnal regens do with WHM. And there was almost always a SCH in compositions because they not only had strong complimentary mitigation but far more sustainable DPS, and in Gordias/Midas DPS checks were a massive wall during progression.

Man, you reminded me that I forgot to mention how garbage Disable was at launch with it's "getting slapped off by an auto right before the impending tank buster" design.

But yeah, my post as a whole was more a summation of issues and I probably touched on some of them a bit broadly. Either way, my overarching point about AST's "initial badness" having a LOT less to do with a weaker Balance and way more to do with a poop-tier "everything else" still stands. With the power we have now, Balance can definitely afford to be nerfed. ASTs will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

It's not the ppl, it's the white mages; whom can't think so much since they are too occupied overhealing/afking. They want some kinda of buff then they can't be completely useless to their party.

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I don't know who you are or who you think you are but WHM do dps provided the OTHER healer and dps know and do their jobs. You have so much WHM hate, its why the healers are separated and not playing as a team the way they were created. Thanks for doing your best to ruin the divine trinity.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

I use it on the smash after p2 swords, ukehl if it's up and thundercloud stacks. Place before it comes, detonate after the damage. In a real emergency I just place->detonate. Heals more than enough. Honestly I would class it as an instant. I understand what you're saying, I just don't think your point is completely right.

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None of those are examples that require emergency (AOE) healing. Again, nothing to do with healing potency. There is a very noticeable difference in activation time for Assize/Indomitability compared to Earthly Start. Go try out these spells and you'll see. It's a good tool but not an emergency healing tool. Emergency healing is Essential Dignity and Lady of Crowns (and Nocturnal Aspected Benefic, depending on how you look at it).

Can we also not ignore the fact that they gutted SCH this xpac and many hate the WHM changes?

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Ahh, I see. Most of the guys who complain about ast are whms. Hmmm. Ok so. You can't think so much I guess. AST's balance is not a buff that 100% of the time you'll have. Don't say stupid things without know. Ah nvm... I guess you are some of those whms that don't dps; probably overhealing/afking.
And about AST for progression?? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaa yeah you should be kidding. Yeah, again balance is RNG, but even so AST HAS NOT the same safety heal than WHM does. So, yeah go learn about dps as WHM and then you come back to say "balance needs to be deleted". Ah and btw; learn astrologian too before you saying stupid stuff about it.

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I'm going too address each of your "points" here, though calling them that is generous. I know it's a waste of time. I know you're an entitled AST main locked in an echochamber of other AST fans telling you your success is due to something more than your overpowered choice of class. I still don't care, your post was irritating and thoughtless enough I can't help myself.

Where did I say Balance had 100% uptime? How can you draw any conclusion about my mental capacity from this argument other than my obviously superior linguistic/grammatical abilities? I specifically addressed how I can and do DPS as WHM regularly and have done so as every healer I've played. Yes, I overheal because WHM abilities almost guarantee that with the way regens work. I'm a HoT based class, you overheal in Diurnal too. I am aware Balance is RNG byt you can feel free to restate it like a child throwing a temper tantrum. I'm going too assume you also mean to point out that AST doesn't have tge same number of panic button heals as WHM though honestly with your grammar and phrasing I can't be sure. I am sure an experienced WHM main could teach me something more about WHM DPS but I definitely don't need much help I'm that respect as you love to insinuate. I also know quite a bit about AST from all the research I did on it before making this thread but I will never main it until it is tuned down because I have no desire to be that OP and the Balance fishing is just plain boring.

Please try to think a little before replying to this. If you step back I'm sure even someone like you can see that Balance has taken over your whole class.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Where did I say Balance had 100% uptime?

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It's not you specifically saying this, and that guy is really stupid and an embarrassment, but a lot of people have this perception, for some reason, that AST can perform at full tilt with balances/ewers/dps/heals going out constantly. AST IS very strong, it DOES need nerfed, but many aspects of the job that people complain about often have a tradeoff or require future planning. If I use this Ewer for MP regen on myself or someone else, I can't Royal Road it for a party buff. If I detonate this Earthly Star now I may not have it when it's stronger and possibly more needed. If I use this card now, I may not have it for when it can be more useful. If I use this Celestial Opposition now, I may not have it to extend a buff that would be more beneficial to extend.Combined with the class's propensity for RNG and streaks of bad luck, there can be times when AST isn't as strong as people make it out to be. And yet, a number of people seem to have this belief that AST can do everything all at once. Just like when people were spreading around this lie that Essential Dignity got buffed for SB by shortening its recast timer; it's always been like that, they just removed the passive that made it so. But in the patch notes, it said "Essential Dignity recast timer shortened to 40 seconds" and people lost their minds that ED was getting "buffed." So yeah, I guess it was a buff below level 28? Nobody cares about stuff at that level.

AST has been my main since 3.1 and I don't see myself switching to another class regardless of what buffs or nerfs come my way. I love how it plays. I DON'T think Balance needs to be removed. It does need a nerf. Balance IS a core part of the card system, it's just too far ahead of the other cards right now that it is always temping to redraw for it. A nerf combined with its RNG nature seems just fine. Because, as mentioned, if you removed Balance right now, AST would still be a very strong healer. AST needs a few other nerfs, but removing Balance would be a ridiculous idea. Right now we have two cards that affect potencies, two cards that affect speed, and two cards that affect resources. Seems like a decent balance to me. Removing a core part of the class (yes, I KNOW removing Balance is not the same as removing the entire card system, but it's always been a benefit and it feels very nice to draw a Balance, it felt nice way before the nerf) isn't the solution.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

It's not you specifically saying this, and that guy is really stupid and an embarrassment, but a lot of people have this perception, for some reason, that AST can perform at full tilt with balances/ewers/dps/heals going out constantly. AST IS very strong, it DOES need nerfed, but many aspects of the job that people complain about often have a tradeoff or require future planning. If I use this Ewer for MP regen on myself or someone else, I can't Royal Road it for a party buff. If I detonate this Earthly Star now I may not have it when it's stronger and possibly more needed. If I use this card now, I may not have it for when it can be more useful. If I use this Celestial Opposition now, I may not have it to extend a buff that would be more beneficial to extend.Combined with the class's propensity for RNG and streaks of bad luck, there can be times when AST isn't as strong as people make it out to be. And yet, a number of people seem to have this belief that AST can do everything all at once. Just like when people were spreading around this lie that Essential Dignity got buffed for SB by shortening its recast timer; it's always been like that, they just removed the passive that made it so. But in the patch notes, it said "Essential Dignity recast timer shortened to 40 seconds" and people lost their minds that ED was getting "buffed." So yeah, I guess it was a buff below level 28? Nobody cares about stuff at that level.

AST has been my main since 3.1 and I don't see myself switching to another class regardless of what buffs or nerfs come my way. I love how it plays. I DON'T think Balance needs to be removed. It does need a nerf. Balance IS a core part of the card system, it's just too far ahead of the other cards right now that it is always temping to redraw for it. A nerf combined with its RNG nature seems just fine. Because, as mentioned, if you removed Balance right now, AST would still be a very strong healer. AST needs a few other nerfs, but removing Balance would be a ridiculous idea. Right now we have two cards that affect potencies, two cards that affect speed, and two cards that affect resources. Seems like a decent balance to me. Removing a core part of the class (yes, I KNOW removing Balance is not the same as removing the entire card system, but it's always been a benefit and it feels very nice to draw a Balance, it felt nice way before the nerf) isn't the solution.

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Even with a nerf to 10% (5% AOE), I still feel like Balance is the only real desirable card in the deck in most scenarios, considering that Arrow is already the same efficacy but in a more roundabout way of delivery (ie, 10% haste up =/= 10% damage up), and there's still the kind of overarching problem of it having a bongos duration of 30s. Trick Attack, a hotly controversial skill among DPS mains, is only a 10-second duration. Yeah, it's guaranteed every 60 seconds, but unless you as an AST can't set up an AOE Balance every TWO minutes Balance will come out ahead over Trick Attack most every time. And as I said, Trick Attack gets a lot of heat from DPS mains because they think it's too busted as a utility for NINs too.

With the TP cost buffs in HW, I'd hazard to say that Spire doesn't have much value outside of someone dying, or AOE situations; same with Ewer. Spear of course is still stupidly situational and difficult to use, and pretty much only exists as RR and MA fodder. Bole I actually like, but aside from trash pulls in dungeons I haven't encountered anything where I really feel like it's "valuable utility" - especially not over the Almighty Balance. MAYBE if Balance got a nerf Bole might see some more use (less damage tank takes = more time for healers to DPS, possibly making up for the Balance nerf but I doubt it).

I know it's a hard position for a lot of ASTs to grasp, because they like that card and they like feeling useful by using that card, but I'm of the opinion that unless it gets nerfed down to pretty serious degress (5% ST, 2.5% AOE) it'll always be the top pick in an Astrologian's deck because nothing in this game really trumps the utility of MOAR DEEPS. I find it being the only desired outcome of my Draw insanely boring, I don't feel nice or special or awesome when I get it, I just think "UGH FINALLY" because that's all anyone in my group is actually interested in at this time.

I'm not a career healer, but I have played enough Astrologian to have an opinion about the cards system.

It does seem like The Balance is just the best card you can draw at the moment. I'll leave whether the numbers on it need to be tweaked to others. However, I think one of the issues here is the power delta within the cards that can be drawn.

Ewer and spire are situational, but they do what they need to and if you draw and need them; you'll use them. These, I think, are fine.

Balance and Arrow are always good. Arrow is a bit riskier due to the resource cost that come with faster attack speed. But overall, it's still usually worth playing. Balance is always amazing. These are also in a pretty good place (and like I said before, I don't really want to speak to the power level of Balance).

Bole and The Spear are more problematic. Bole is a nice thing to have if the tank just did a massive pull and you just want some breathing room. It's not necessary, but it can be nive to have. The Spear is super situational and since you have no control when you'll pull it out or if your allies have anything that'll come back from cooldown it's practically useless.

I think if they nerfed Balance, they should also look at buffing the duration of Bole and The Spear. Bole lasting longer could make it viable as a DPS increase since your co-healer and yourself (and potentially the tank) could push DPS a little longer due to the increased breathing room. Similarly with The Spear, if it lasted longer; you'd have a better chance of abilities coming back off of cooldown. I'd say that doubling their duration would probably make a lot of sense if they decided to, let's say, halve the potency of Balance.

The problem with the cards system is that you'll always be seeing the same card applied over and over again as long as the power differential between the different draws is large.

I honestly think the cards just need some overhauls. So many of our cards are useless because the buffs they provide just aren't as desirable as raw damage ( and some are just plain garbage )

So many people continue to complain that Balance needs to be nerfed because it's overtuned and that our other cards would iron out from there, but I honestly don't think they would. I personally believe that Balance is overpowered by design and not it's current numbers/percentages.

The problematic issue with "Balance" is that raw damage boosts will always be desired over any of the buffs we have because DPS is king in FFXIV. Square could nerf "Balance" to 5% and people would still foam at the mouth for it. Especially since it's something no other healer can bring to the table.

Below are some changes I believe the cards need to balance them out.
In my opinion.

Balance: Needs to be reworked into a different buff.
Bole: Honestly, I don't have any complaints on this.
Arrow: Could maybe be a bit stronger, especially if Balance was removed.
Spear: Simply allowing this to also affect abilities on cooldown would fix this card.
Ewer: Honestly, either needs to be stronger or reworked into a different buff.
Spire: This just needs to be reworked into a different buff as well. While Ewer has super niche uses...I have NEVER had a tank or DPS need this buff or ask for it. It honestly feels like a card that was designed just for Royal Road fodder.

I also personally believe that Royal Road needs some adjustments as well, but I'm not entirely certain how to fix it. One of my major complaints with Royal Road now is that it's set up to make certain buffs it provides useless & specific cards nothing more than fodder. A few examples are;

Bole and Balance: 150% potency:
I almost never use the 150% Potency boost provided by Royal Roading Balance & Bole because the cards themselves 9/10 are more useful in any situation to use even without a Royal Road effect, than to waste them on the RR buff they provide. I also seem to remember someone doing testing and providing statistics that showed you got more benefit out of any given card by doubling its duration rather than boosting it by 150%. ( I could be wrong though as that was an old study and I can no longer find its source )

Ewer and Spire: 50% potency + AoE:
This bonus actually has the opposite problem of Bole & Balance. The buff Ewer & Spire provide from Royal Roading is so insanely powerful, that it's almost always more important to Royal Road them than to use the cards individually, even if the Buffs they provided were more useful.


Arrow and Spear: Doubled duration:
And finally, the buffs provided by Arrow & Spear are just kind of niche and largely useless outside of 4 man dungeons.
I know the Astrologian is the last Healer that needs massive attention, but I honestly feel like our cards are designed poorly in that they pigeon hole you into using only a few specific cards in any situation.

Here's what I'd like to see from the cards in a way that could help redistribute that power:

First, it frustrates me that Arrow is ultimately just a weaker Balance. That doesn't make it feel impactful, it makes it feel like I'm settling on less power. Second, Ewer and Spire are not useful on every job, nor are their effects powerful enough to really want to use over their royal road effects. Third, Spear just doesn't work; its design is inherently convoluted, difficult to communicate, and even more difficult to gauge who it's best to give to on the fly. So here's the solution I propose...

Balance: 10% Damage boost that doubles to 20% when used on a character in the Melee DPS role. 30s

Arrow: 10% Attack Speed boost that doubles to 20% when used on a character in the Ranged DPS role. 30s

Spire: 10% Critical Hit boost that doubles to 20% when used on a character in the Caster DPS or Healer role. 30s

Bole: 20% Damage Reduction (unchanged). 30s

Spear: 20% Reduction to non-global cool downs. Abilities that are currently on cool down are sped up by 20% or made active if less than 20% of the time is left on the cool down. 30s

Ewer: MP and TP refresh. 30s (duration doubled).

The idea here is that you have your 3 offensive cards that you prioritize based on your team, and that ultimately nerfs the AoE effect because only some party members will receive the 10% boost while most will only get a 5% boost to that source of damage.

Bole already has its uses, and the changes to Spear allow it to be less of a "quick I need to figure out who hasn't used their cool downs yet" situation, and allows you to reap the benefits of it regardless. And merging the MP and TP refreshes means that this card is no longer useless on non-healer roles and the doubled duration means that the actual amount regained is actually worth using the card with in more circumstances. You can also expand Ewer to help provide a hefty amount of resources to the team when players are running low.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

/Snip.

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Thus far I’ve vehemently opposed most proposed changes to ASTs cards...but this system looks far more fun and creates a reward for pulling more than just Balance. I’d actually very much love to see this implemented.

I would like to see Bole, Arrow, and Balance roughly equal, and Spear, Ewer, Spire as roughly equal. As it stands, the heirarchy seems to be Balance, Arrow, Bole Ewer Spire, Spear.

As for a Nerf? Maybe a baby Nerf to Balance, but it's not necessary. I'd rather they spend some time on SCH. I main WHM, and some PI rework would be nice too, but is lower priority.

I didn't put any thought into cross healer balance while reading it, but I also like ty_taurus suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop afking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

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Is this guy real or..?