Objectively, The Royal Managerie Will Be Nerfed

I must have gotten extremely lucky with my group, because I'm honestly surprised it's even a discussion. My experience with it was not bad at all. On the first attempt, we wiped on the second stage, which is expected as none of us had done it before, and we were learning. The second attempt we had zero deaths. We talked about what we learned, figured out what to do and what not to do, and got the win. The second attempt was completely painless and quite smooth.

It will be nerfed, past actions have showed that SE tends to nerf MSQ required boss fights. I completed this trial fight with only 1 wipe and this was a group of only newcomers to the fight. After the wipe, we discussed and came up with a tactic, it worked and we won. I love these moments when the players come toghter and work toghter to complete a task. These days most players want to clear their content fast and clear their content with no effort done.

The Royal Manegeri should not be nerfed, instead this must happen:

1. Players need to accept that failure can happen, instead of crying for nerfs, they need to think on how to overcome them.

2. Players need to communicate more, this is something that will be hard to do, because most players only know how to say: "Hi, Hello,Goodbye, Bye and every insult possible".

3. Veteran players need to stick around after a wipe, those that have cleared should act as mentors and help the newcomers. If the newcomers wont listen then its understandable that you would leave them to their fates. 98% of the time when I did a content and there was a wipe, its always those that have cleared it before who complain and leave first. If we the veteran players turn those negative moments into positive learning experience for the newcomers, then they too will pass this experience to the future newcomers.

In general, people need to work toghter (COMMUNICATE), veterans need to stick around and not bail after the first wipe and we should accept that failure is not the end, but a beginning.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

It will be nerfed, past actions have showed that SE tends to nerf MSQ required boss fights. I completed this trial fight with only 1 wipe and this was a group of only newcomers to the fight. After the wipe, we discussed and came up with a tactic, it worked and we won. I love these moments when the players come together and work together to complete a task. These days most players want to clear their content fast and clear their content with no effort done.

The Royal Menagerie should not be nerfed, instead this must happen:

1. Players need to accept that failure can happen, instead of crying for nerfs, they need to think on how to overcome them.

2. Players need to communicate more, this is something that will be hard to do, because most players only know how to say: "Hi, Hello,Goodbye, Bye and every insult possible".

3. Veteran players need to stick around after a wipe, those that have cleared should act as mentors and help the newcomers. If the newcomers wont listen then its understandable that you would leave them to their fates. 98% of the time when I did a content and there was a wipe, its always those that have cleared it before who complain and leave first. If we the veteran players turn those negative moments into positive learning experience for the newcomers, then they too will pass this experience to the future newcomers.

In general, people need to work together (COMMUNICATE), veterans need to stick around and not bail after the first wipe and we should accept that failure is not the end, but a beginning.

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They have actually only ever nerfed 1 story fight, and that was Steps of Faith, because of the insane wipe time, not because it was too hard. Chrysalis, Final Steps of Faith, Thordan, Aetherochemical Research Facility all remain un-nerfed.

id rather be gated behind a steep difficulty curve rather then a shitty window with a timer infrunt of it >_>

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Originally Posted by Laerune

It will be nerfed, past actions have showed that SE tends to nerf MSQ required boss fights.

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Niddhog in Final Step of Faith got not nerfed (except overequipping)

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

So why not just remove the need for beating this encounter to unlock Verity vendor? Let Verity vendor just be unlocked once you hit 70.

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They really need to do this, as well as several other things like this.

I personally love the story, I head straight for it and often don't do much else patch-to-patch but come in for the story. But not everyone does, and making everyone go through it to access anything regardless of relationship to it at all should stop. Sure, don't let people go into Ala Mihgo until they get there in the story, because its existence as a dungeon is tied up in the story, but what's the story reason for not letting fresh level 70 players into Kugane Castle or The Temple of the Fist? What was it for Neverreap? They're weak at best and nonexistent at worst, and they should let people who want to go in do so without completing the unrelated main story.

Not only does it just make more sense than what we have now, it's in line with how Yoshida has said MMOs should be designed (theme parks, where everyone goes toward the attractions they're interested in), and it would allow us to have more difficult main story fights like this without people getting so frustrated that they're being stopped from continuing the game. They'd be allowed to take a break, go get some better gear, and come back when other people have done the same too.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

The problem is that this is a Story Mode instance that is required to unlock the Verity vendor and 310 gear. So there is an innate gear cap and it acts as a gate. Again, subjectively it may not be right to nerf it but objectively SE will likely nerf it because the gate risk is too high. SE will literally be throwing away subs and money otherwise.

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What content is there that you would need tomestone gear to do if you can't beat this easy fight?

As I said in another post, it's not difficult if people didn't force players to skip mechanics in previous fights. When such mechanic pop in Shinryu, it's nothing we haven't seen before, unless you fought never seen those mechanics before due to forced skips.

Ignoring the existence of Jump potions for jobs and MSQ, if you have been playing the game for 70 levels, you have been more than well enough prepared for Menagerie, and those who can't need much more help than any nerf will provide.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

So why not just remove the need for beating this encounter to unlock Verity vendor? Let Verity vendor just be unlocked once you hit 70.

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Because you can/should farm the other dungeons for a bit to at the get the iLv300 gear to make it easier outside of simply understanding the mechanics.

People struggled with nidhogg too and they never nerfed it. Doesn't this prove how the base players are? Many times it's been told here and other places, but people tend to ignore it. I'm ashamed people actually teach players to be bad, you see a lot of players do it on the forum actually.

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Originally Posted by MoarLegion

Ignoring the existence of Jump potions for jobs and MSQ, if you have been playing the game for 70 levels, you have been more than well enough prepared for Menagerie, and those who can't need much more help than any nerf will provide.

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I agree! This one guy got the PLD potion (his highest was whatever GLD was to get the original Provoke level). He pretty much sped his way to Lv70 and the MSQ. He had clue about MT mechanics and CDs, making the fight harder.

Well, I did now as bard and success after 3 wipe. Anyway, I continued dying. Sometimes surviving with 1-2k HP because I always put vitality materia in my acessory.

I think people just need to get good I have cleared it first time go without a party wipe...stop crying about getting it nerfed you just need to get better!!!!

So many people saying "stop crying git gud", and yet the difficulty itself isn't the issue.

Its that its a party-finder queue.

I spent more time waiting in queue and waiting to fill leavers, than I did actually running it. Skill doesn't enter into it, especially when a tank or healer NOPE's out of it, people are effectively locked out of running it as well.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

As I said in another post, it's not difficult if people didn't force players to skip mechanics in previous fights. When such mechanic pop in Shinryu, it's nothing we haven't seen before, unless you fought never seen those mechanics before due to forced skips.

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Yeah phase skipping was real in Bardam's Mettle's second boss.

When it comes down to it, whether we want it to or not..personally idc, it will become easier with gear, but sadly it probably will be nerfed.

Cleared it in a PUG, everyone was new, wiped once at 25%, tank pulled again, cleared on the second pull with no discussion of strategies on what people consider to be one of the weakest data centers.

If they nerf, I'll lose whatever faith in the community I still have.

This trial is easy and needs no nerfs. All you need to know is how to move to one place and run across a gigantic aoe. Is there really much else?

I'm playing through MSQ with you boyfriend who has had a ton of work lately and even though I know this fight is going to get nerfed I just want to clear first so damn bad >.<

Hopefully they don't do it in the upcoming patch, if they're going to nerf it it needs to happen in the future when it isn't as relavent to such large portion of the player base.

It's the last boss of 4.0. Leave it. Just put echo on for wipes and be done.

I don't think it should be nerfed either, but I do agree that locking all level 70 content besides a single dungeon behind the hardest MSQ fight thus far is an issue with the difficulty spike.

Truth is, grinding to out-level/overgear has always been a viable method up to this point. :/ That's normal RPG logic, let alone for FFXIV.

Never noticed that fight being that difficult to be honest lol. Found it epic.

Don't see the reason behind all these calls for nerf. It's an absolutely doable fight which revolves around positioning, avoiding AoE, and not tunnel-visioning.
Completed it within the first DF, with just 1 wipe with pugs.

The only real thing i wish had been done about this trial in its implementation, would have been to have it seperate from msq completion, reasoning being that people could access and run through the new expert dungeons for tomes, Granted the 290 stuff was good enough. That would still keep it a finale, and gate to raids, or rather what i mean is that the tome shops and new dungeons were accessible right before . Other than that, I think its fine.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I don't think it should be nerfed either, but I do agree that locking all level 70 content besides a single dungeon behind the hardest MSQ fight thus far is an issue with the difficulty spike.

Truth is, grinding to out-level/overgear has always been a viable method up to this point. :/ That's normal RPG logic, let alone for FFXIV.

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Technically the average ilvl it allows for entry is 280, so by running your job quest for 290 left side and ala mhigo for 300 right side (and some 300 left side) you are out gearing the fight. It seems that it is assumed you will have full 288 from Castrum Abania, or mixed 290/288 with maybe a 300 or two in there for the fight. Or even wait for you to be full 300 with a 288 ring from Abania.

I don't think it needs a nerf, Shinryu gives you tons of time to react to his attacks and all of the mechanics have been seen before. I think the big deal about this fight is that it's really hard for the healers to help you recover if you make a mistake because they have their hands full with lots of AoE damage already. Just have to concentrate, stop making mistakes and expecting the healer to save you when you don't react fast enough.

If a nerf needs to be done, adding the 5% echo up to 50%, that would do the trick. That way you can try it on its original difficulty and then gently ease until it's cleared.

This fight is a needed raid awareness lesson. Leave it be.

Here's the thing. SE did screw up.....but not with the difficulty of this fight. Where SE screwed up was by releasing 2 dps only this expansion (and highly desirable ones to boot). The problem with this fight isn't the difficulty....it's the severe penalty of what happens after a loss: party members leaving or voting to abandon. If either happens, you have to wait an extremely long time for another crack at this if you're a dps. And when you try again, you're now at the mercy of getting new players who haven't seen this fight. If the turnaround time from loss to another attempt was much shorter, there wouldn't be as much complaining about this fight being a blockade to tomes and such.

I remember Ultimecia. I was 13 yo when I played FFVIII. I wiped more than 100 times, and when I finally defeated her, I screamed like crazy and I was trembling.

I remember Adel, the boss who slowly killed Rinoa. I wiped 50 times before I tried Irvine's special abilities, and destroyed her in 2 mins. I was extremely happy.

I remember Psycho Mantis, and the intelligence and ingenuity required to beat him in Metal Gear Solid. My head hurted when I figured it out.

I remember the puzzles of Silent Hill 1,2,3.

I remember the wipefest that was the original Forbidden Siren.

Those were the days, when videogames were actually challenging and required mental capacity and ingenuity to defeat.

Nowadays, even with some medium difficulty battle added to a faceroll game, snowflakes complain and whine for nerf.

Grow a pair, learn the fight, wipe endlessly and when you finally beat it, you will be way more happy than facerolling through it.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Snip.

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That was actually another critique I saw here; the entry iLVL feels way too low to some players.

I've gotten through two parties with only 2 learners, both with 5-ish wipes, and my adjustment was just to not shift focus too much off pure healing. One mistake can melt a DPS, lot's of raid wide damage hits in succession, both tanks in constant danger, lots of movement, and Scholar mana costs are in a rough spot right now. My overall DPS output is pretty garbage as I can only keep bio up, a couple deathflares, and maybe ruin 2 the tail a fews times if no one is critical. I'm iLVL292.

Two fights is not enough to gauge for balance, but that's a highly tuned fight if I've yet to find a spot with enough time to comfortably use miasma or broil.

And I'm not a EX level player, never have been. Honestly, the doggy mounts and talk that Susano and Lakshmi EX are easier is making me reconsider that.

None of the mechanics are very hard , and even if a few people die this is extremely easy. I would have to suppose people are trying to waste LB on dps rather then letting healers hold it for recovering. You can win this even if everyone is only wearing their job quest gear you just have to play smart ,and learn the mechanics.

Please don't nerf this. Please don't nerf this. Please don't nerf this. First time got to 7% but we didnt have a lb3 because a dps burned it. We would have cleared it on the first try if we had it. 1am pug group and 3 tries were all we needed. It's the perfect end to 4.0 imo.

It's hard to dodge a 5-8 second aoe or mechanic I guess, also hard to hit something that pops up your screen that does a large amount to the boss in last phase. lol

Finally did it. Wiped loads of times, disbanded once, went in again, wiped once, 2nd go managed to beat Shinryu.
You only need to see the mechanics once to know how they're all done, it's also nothing we haven't seen before, we're beyond the inconsistent icons that were in ARR and early HW where one stack icon could mean something else in another duty. It was a challenging fight and a great way to put all your new abilities to the test after a long journey to finally take down the big bad. Get good, and take pride in overcoming challenges.

it is an easy fight, but people need to stop treating it like they over gear it. I ran it several times yesterday, and had 3 wipes, before people leaving, and it got to the point that any trial roulette me and my g/f did was gonna pop this.

She loves the fight but is very burnt out because of lack of communication and teamwork. She tries to explain the fight, but people pull to fast. She tries to tank/explain but gets called out for "complaining". What people need to do is stop and communicate, stop acting so solo in group content.

the dps need to stay away from the tanks, and tanks need ti be stacked for ahk mourn having dps chill by tanks is bad idea, because it can tether the dps instead. People have claimed this isn't a cure intensive fight, but oit very much is. I've seen healers get completely drained of mp before the shift change and run on fumes the later 1/2.

i've seen healers dps more then cure, blaming everyone else yet they are the reason people die.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

None of the mechanics are very hard , and even if a few people die this is extremely easy. I would have to suppose people are trying to waste LB on dps rather then letting healers hold it for recovering. You can win this even if everyone is only wearing their job quest gear you just have to play smart ,and learn the mechanics.

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I agree, but the number of people that join RM without completing their lvl70 job quest is awfully high and I don't get why. As soon as I hit 70 I literally rushed to complete the job quest.
New shiny skill? Sign me up
New awesome gear? Yay
New cool weapon? YAY
But no no, a lot of people (at least in my Data Center) ignore it and join regardless - a lot of them with lvl60 gear, too. Not surprised you wipe!

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Originally Posted by Sereph6

I agree, but the number of people that join RM without completing their lvl70 job quest is awfully high and I don't get why. As soon as I hit 70 I literally rushed to complete the job quest.
New shiny skill? Sign me up
New awesome gear? Yay
New cool weapon? YAY
But no no, a lot of people (at least in my Data Center) ignore it and join regardless - a lot of them with lvl60 gear, too. Not surprised you wipe!

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Probably because all the other new skills were not locked behind the job quests.

Objectively, The Royal Managerie Will Be Nerfed ?


How are you in any way objective?



To be objective: Since ARR I guess, no content (outisde of Savage) was nerfed while current, except for Steps of Faith.
And that didn't get nerfed, because it was "too hard", it was because the overall design was bad: It was not possible to join in progress without at least losing 30 mins, consisting of 10 mins until the unaivoidable wipe + a full new run. And with some mistakes right at the start it's still 15 mins waiting to try again.
Objectily the outcry for nerfs was way more frequent regarding Steps of Faiths and Final Steps of Faith. FSoF is still unnerferd.
Nerfing of "Steps of Faith" is not a precedence for nerfing "hard content", it's a precedence for nerfing "broken content".

The only ones being really objective are the developers. They just look at the clear-% of currently subbing players and % of players gated just behind that specific MSQ quest. If it's too low (and can't be raised by applying echo with the patch tomorrow or the one in 2 weeks, when savage gets released), then they will nerf it. If not, then not.