Launch Trailer Hype Thread

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So if we accept this as true, that means its a Katana Gatling Gun?

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While that would be cool, I think it was more along the lines of a charger, a magical katana charged aetherial wheel style.

Meant magitek, can't edit my post above on mobile.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

(I also want to say that "Tis better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken! Therein lies hope; therein lies freedom" is a different character too, but that's more my hope that that isn't Yotsuyu's actual English voice than anything else, as it's pretty obviously her in Japanese).

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I actually thought that "Tis better to bend with the wind than stand tall and be broken." is said by the elderly AuRa we saw in the Revolutions video. Mainly because the voice sounds old and it sounds like an old woman's advice. :D I sure as hell hope it won't be said by Yotsuyu or her voice is terrible!

I'm not sure the WoL gets stomped by Zenos. To me the scene looked more like a precursor to a fight; maybe that he knocked us down or surprised us and now we're about to dust off and pimp smack him. it feels more like a set up of something to come than a result of a struggle if that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So if we accept this as true, that means its a Katana Gatling Gun?

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I think it's more like a mechanical caddy. Each of the three swords has wildly different properties, and he chooses the weapon based on the opponent. Fighting someone he recognized as a defensive mage, he brought out the magic-breaker katana. In all likelihood, one of the other two is a heavy, armor-breaking katana, and the last a lightweight, precision katana.

I personally suspect that the dark magic aura was inherent to the katana, rather than to the caddy or to Zenos himself. Just an aspect of that particular legendary katana.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Primals aren't THAT tough.

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Do we know that those NPC characters are weak? Also didnt they fight with hundreds of people against a primal (mostly because of the high loss thanks to tempering) And lets not forget that we also fought against primals like Ravana (which needed all the WoD to defeat it later, so cant be that weak) and Thordan with his 12 knights. These knights were highly trained elite knights, so they cant be pushovers. On top of that they were powered by prayers of thousand years, Nidhoggs eye and warring triad. We killed them solo! Before that we defeated Regula alone and put the two Ascians down. We also defeated Nidhogg on our own (with the help of his brothers eye), went against high ranking void creatures like Diablo. We defeated Bahamut (even if he was not of his former strenght) and killed the Warring Triad too. I really have to stretch my believe that after all those feasts we just simply loose to one Garlean in single combat with us being at full strength. And on top of that he does not want to kill us because he wants to fight against someone strong. (Quite the insult)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I hope they don't start using the Echo to 'warn' us of what could happen if the antagonists succeed. I want the antagonists to actually succeed, at least temporarily, otherwise it'd just feel very much like a cop out. It's also another 'X died, but not really' moment along the lines of what we saw with Nanamo and to a lesser extent, Aymeric. Besides, the Echo doesn't need to be powered up further. The Warrior of Light is already ridiculously powerful with many plot conveniences at his disposal. Does he really need more?

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Not only that but why should we suddenly have that ability? I mean we had beloved people die on us in HW yet there was no such echo at that moment. So it would leave a bad taste since this ability would just come to us sudden when we did not have it when we could have needed it after the vault (which would make Haurchefants death even more hard for me..) but it would also still leave a bad taste because we still would have lost against one Garlean. Really I hope that there is more to it than "sudden person that can defeat a walking calamity in single combat".

Also a big question remains. If we loose there with all the grand companies on our side..and we travel to Othard which takes months..shouldnt the Empire try to take over Eorzea?

Just because nobody's brought it up... if we're gonna bandy about XII references... maybe the source of Zenos' monstrous power is something akin​ to Judge Bergan's nethicite augmentation?

Just an idea. Might explain some of his mental instability too.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Just because nobody's brought it up... if we're gonna bandy about XII references... maybe the source of Zenos' monstrous power is something akin​ to Judge Bergan's nethicite augmentation?

Just an idea. Might explain some of his mental instability too.

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I doubt Zenos is actuallyinfluenced by some magic to make him this Warmonger. It is stated that before he got his katana weapons was already like this from the very beginning.

Besides the "standard" for being "mentally ill"/"Insane" has always been bound to a person's standard to what is considered "normal" for them even if that "Normal" is just society's expectations.

Zenos is probably one of the most sane person we will ever meet in this game that accepts the reality of "human nature"

I tend to not believe that we did a whole hell of a lot solo. After all, one of the big themes of the game is "strength through unity," so for us to slay Primals and the like on our own goes completely against that. Plus, there are more than a few times that NPCs will outright tell us to gather up some friends before we take on threat-X, Y, or Z (Void Ark and Alexander series comes to mind), and as infrequent and inconsistant as that is, it still makes more sense that we teamed up to take on most major threats.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Zenos is probably one of the most sane person we will ever meet in this game that accepts the reality of "human nature"

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It always amuses me when cynics in real life accept this kind of thing as a serious observation of human nature. It pretty much flies in the face of, well, just about all of recorded history. At any point in time, the number of individuals performing violent acts against other humans is hilariously outnumbered by the number of people just living their lives and not intending harm to anyone - and yet we're expected to believe that this tiny minority are the "natural" ones? It's like a real-life variant of the "toxic players" epidemic players rant about in General Discussion. Sure, they're out there - but hardly an epidemic.

Thankfully, the game itself seems to be taking Zenos's observations for what they are: the psychopathic ravings of a monster in human skin.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

I tend to not believe that we did a whole hell of a lot solo. After all, one of the big themes of the game is "strength through unity," so for us to slay Primals and the like on our own goes completely against that. Plus, there are more than a few times that NPCs will outright tell us to gather up some friends before we take on threat-X, Y, or Z (Void Ark and Alexander series comes to mind), and as infrequent and inconsistant as that is, it still makes more sense that we teamed up to take on most major threats.

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Indeed, the game's storyline is pretty inconsistent when it comes to whether or not we took on these threats solo. (And the actual gameplay, of course, does not support the "solo" theory one iota.) As I've mentioned in other threads, until the game explicitly states otherwise, I get credit for victories over these threats not because I beat them down with my own two hands, but because I lead a team of champions to victory over them. The ability to lead is just as heroic - if not moreso - than pure martial prowess.

Alleo's disbelief that a single Garlean, no matter how powerful, could overcome a hero who single-handedly defeated Nidhogg, Thordan, and the like is a valid one - and because it is valid I take it as further evidence that these victories were NOT single-handed.

I took the line about bending vs breaking in an ominous tone... it's better to bow to the empire than be broken by it...
As for zenos and his katanas I had envisioned them akin to the fftactics samurai katanas... the sword has its own soul... or maybe he's just " more magitek than man now"...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I took the line about bending vs breaking in an ominous tone... it's better to bow to the empire than be broken by it...

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Yet it was also paired with the line "therein lies hope". While the paired "therein lies freedom" might imply something like finding peace in enslavement, "therein lies hope" almost seems to imply waiting for the opportune moment to strike back against your oppressors.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Thankfully, the game itself seems to be taking Zenos's observations for what they are: the psychopathic ravings of a monster in human skin.
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I am not talking about "Natural selection" bull **** kind of stuff. I am saying that Zenos is probably the most self aware of what people will do for the sake of things only.

We always get the question from NPCs and to other NPCs "Why are you doing this?" and expecting always some complex backstory to build sympathy or reasoning behind the actions but sometimes the reason is a simple "just for the sake of it."

Some people enjoy making others suffer for the sake of making others suffer while others make others happy for the sake of making others happy. It is like certain NPCs we meet who chosen to save the life of others for the sake of saving a life. Then there is certain other NPCs we know that have killed hundreds for the sake of it such as certain NPC in 3.5 MSQ that unleash Garlean Drones to kill all the Ala Mhigo resistance members.

Others choose to live there life the way they want without disturbing others for that sake alone.

Zenos statement of "only man has the wisdom and clearity to embrace violence for its own sake" is more to "man's" abiltiy to be self aware of their own actions to act out just for the sake of it.

It is like when a person has to choose to save a person's life or choose to save himself instead. No matter the choice they make their choice at the core is for their own sake either to save a life and feel the satisfaction that they feel they did the right thing or to save himself for self preservation.

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Originally Posted by ZhaneX

Yet it was also paired with the line "therein lies hope". While the paired "therein lies freedom" might imply something like finding peace in enslavement, "therein lies hope" almost seems to imply waiting for the opportune moment to strike back against your oppressors.

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The dialogue probably reflects on what Yotsuyu went through when Doma was under Orthard old government. We know in the lore she does all the horrible things to people of Orthard because of a strong hatred she had for them under the old government rule before the Garlean Empire took over which has been stated to be quite bad before the Garlean Empire took over.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

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You kind of missed my point there... I was trying to discern the source of Zenos' overwhelming power, not necessarily comment on his mental state. I would nonetheless argue that anyone who considers everyone weaker than him mere fodder for killing as he wishes, and thinks anyone who doesn't embrace violence for its own sake is less than human, is not of entirely sound mind. I admit that is just my opinion, though I don't think Eorzea (and going by his reputation even Garlemald) really disagrees.

Anyway... nethicite is a special magic stone from Ivalice. It functions by absorbing magical energy (Mist / aether), then releasing it for power, and comes in two flavors: deifacted and manufacted (god made and man made). Deifacted nethicite functions mostly as a nuclear weapon and takes a long time to charge. Manufacted nethicite has a wider array of uses and charges faster.

The specific use I'm looking at is its ability to augment the power of a fighter. One of the five Judge Magisters, Bergan, had implanted manufacted nethicite into his body to raise his power - but it eroded his sanity to a degree as well. I can't help but wonder if Zenos did not do something similar, given how he's able to shatter Y'shtola's thus-unbreakable barrier with one hand and apparently kick our ass even though we've taken on Regula van Hydrus, one of his peers. (That one nobody can argue - we had no Blessing of Light active and canonically defeated van Hydrus in single combat.) Granted [manufacted] nethicite is not known to be extant on Hydaelyn, but I admit I am only hypothesizing.

I'm not saying we should be the greatest fighter on Hydaelyn... but given what we've fought, there must be something behind Zenos' power that lets him toss us around as he does.

(See, Theodric? I'm actually pretty knowledgeable on Ivalice. I just don't like the already-myriad references being compounded with a name drop for the 4.1 24-man.)

I would offer, that, near the end of 3.0, Midgardsormer hizzownself said of us - the WoL - "Of all thy kind, none is stronger" - or very close to those words.

So unless you opine, Middy is playing fourteen layers deep in his own game (possible) and lying about that; in that particular moment in the Story - the WoL is, in fact, practically undefeatable, 1v1, against "our kind" - humanoids (?).

The only thing which keeps the WoL from being an unstoppable Mighty Engine of Destruction, is the Plot Railroad.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

I tend to not believe that we did a whole hell of a lot solo. After all, one of the big themes of the game is "strength through unity," so for us to slay Primals and the like on our own goes completely against that. Plus, there are more than a few times that NPCs will outright tell us to gather up some friends before we take on threat-X, Y, or Z (Void Ark and Alexander series comes to mind), and as infrequent and inconsistant as that is, it still makes more sense that we teamed up to take on most major threats.

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Yes some adventures might have been done with other people but its even stated in the Encyclopedia Eorzea that we fought through the Aetherochemical Research Facility and against Thordan completely alone. So we canonically defeated Regula, two Ascians and Thordan and his 12 highly trained knights alone! The same is written about Ravana.This should have been more than enough to show that we are kinda like mortal gods on our own. And Thordan was even kinda a special case in all those primals fights since he was empowered by dragon eyes, the prayers of many many years and the Warring Triad too. Heck even in the Encyclopedia its written that nobody knows how the WoL managed to do such a feast.

Nidhogg at the end should have been a solo feast too. We landed there directly on the back of his brother and Sohr kai was a solo trial for us (Aymeric and Alphinaud went throught theirs solo too) so we had no time to gather adventurers that are even willing to go against such an enemy. We had the help of a dragons eye but it must have been still quite a feast to kill him. He even commented on this when he was flying into the air as a ghost.

Also its interesting that if we did Alexander with other people this would have meant that they should have been at least near our level too, yet the only reason that Alexander went away was the WoL again. I know that this is a debate for eternity since the game itself sometimes tells about gathering other people but at least in quite some cases being alone is the only thing that makes sense. The scene after Bismark does not make sense if we have others with us, we definitely were going to Azys Lla only with scions so there could have been nobody else there.

I do not say that we are always alone but the really big bads of HW were done solo thus we should not really loose against one mortal like that. At least in the trailer it looks like we stand no chance against him since he does not even want to kill someone helpless like us. It just feels like an insult to the WoL after all that he/she did..so like I said, I really hope that there is a reason for it.

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Originally Posted by ZhaneX

Yet it was also paired with the line "therein lies hope". While the paired "therein lies freedom" might imply something like finding peace in enslavement, "therein lies hope" almost seems to imply waiting for the opportune moment to strike back against your oppressors.

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Assuming the line is said by Yotsuyu, the key word in there would probably be "waiting". As in not acting immediately or in the near future, but waiting for some undefined moment in the far future, during which time Yotsuyu and the Imperial occupation can continue to strengthen their rule.

I think she's making that speech to the subjugated Domans (or presenting it as her justification to the WoL or some such) in order to quell their discontent. (Or try to, at any rate.) Don't resist and rebel, but just accept your current situation, and you'll live to see another day.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

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Seems a very valid inference to make. Particularly given her rather condescending tone of voice.

Yotsuyu's line is actually very familiar to me. I remember an aphorism that was something like "trees are ripped up in hurricanes, but reeds bend," which is close enough to what she's saying. It's supposed to mean something along the lines of "accept change or you will be left in the past," which to her credit does seem to be what Yotsuyu is telling people. Only by embracing change can you find hope and freedom; clinging to the past results only in misery (see: Dragonsong War). The problem is that the kind of change Garlemald brings... isn't wholly good. (Other than technological advancement it's wholly bad, actually.) Being someone who has benefited from the change Garlemald brought to Doma, Yotsuyu would naturally try and push others to do so as well... or use it as an excuse to abuse her power and tyrannize the citizens.

Midgardsormr's comment on our strength... well, to be philosophical about it, he probably wasn't talking about our combat prowess, but our resilience and fortitude. Hydaelyn allowed him to seal away the Blessing for the express purpose of showing him why we are Her chosen, and the sheer amount of crap we went through from 2.55 to 3.0 (End) without losing our way did just that. Note that strength does not equate to power - while we might have more resilience and fortitude than anyone else, that doesn't mean we're the greatest fighter on Hydaelyn. From what we've seen so far Zenos appears to be superior to us, at least in terms of raw power, and we'll need to find a way to bridge that gap one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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Well as I said in a past post "There will always be someone stronger than you in the world even if you never meet that person"

The WoL is strong but the WoL is only able to perform certain feats because the WoL is protected from "corrupting" influences such as the Primal mindcontrols and ability to ignore magical protections on certain "enemies" that normally could not be pierced without such Protection the WoL has with the Blessing of Light.

The Blessing of Light does not make the WoL stronger in anyway but only protects and allows the WoL to resist and ignore outside influenced controls that the Boss normally use to give them absolute victory. When the WoL battles Primals, certain powerful Enemies, and etc it is out of the WoL pure strength, skill, and talent alone.

Blessing of Light is basically a "Anti-cheating" protection for the WoL so he or she can fight that certain enemy using their natural powers without that certain "Boss" cheating their way to victory.

Zenos on the other had is probably naturally stronger than WoL and if he had a type of blessing of Light protection he probably would be able to do the same thing as WoL, if not better, due to his strength.

The WoL view of the world has always been limited to Eorzea thus the WoL has never known anyone that may be stronger than him or her from outside of Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well as I said in a past post "There will always be someone stronger than you in the world even if you never meet that person"

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In the spirit of good fellowship, I have to remark, that, while this is an approved, careworn and often-used saying (especially by martial arts instructors) - it is untrue.

At any given moment in time, and by any measure of strength, there will be, always, "That One Person" who is the strongest of their kind.

Out at plus-three standard deviations, there will be 3.4 "strongest" per million (using the Motorola Shift).

And any given hour of the timeline, one of those 3.4 people, will have just had an awesome carb-loaded meal, and are at peak rest, and they'll be That One Person.

So the WoL, in logical construct, can be "That One Person" here on our Shard, without objection.


THEN we can talk about Equipment/Technical advantages :)


"God made Men; Colonel Colt made them equal."

Which is also inaccurate, because people aren't all equally-handy with pistols. Oh, and the part about a God, too, but hey.

:D

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Stuff

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Feat, not feast.

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Originally Posted by DarthSanguine

Feat, not feast.

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Well it is certainly a feast of blood considering how many WoL killed.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well as I said in a past post "There will always be someone stronger than you in the world even if you never meet that person"

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IMO this is not true. Realistically there has to be a point at a time where there is no stronger opponent left and there always has to be someone at the very top. And just because you only know one continent does not suddenly mean that there are stronger ones in the other parts of the world. I mean it could go the way of DBZ or even Naruto where the main cast is so strong and defeated the strongest person alive only to suddenly have an even stronger opponent appear out of nowhere but IMO that is not good story telling. This is why I like mangas like D.Gray-man. You will learn about the big bads quite early in the story and also about the evolving of the akumas so those points wont come out of nowhere and instead of having the strongest akuma being there since the beginning you will get them later when the cast gets stronger and stronger themselves. (And there is even a good reason for them existing and not being involved before) Yet seeing a lvl 4 for the first time does not mean instant success. Heck even the main bads are still there and not easy to defeat. Yet here we are, already killing Ascians and other godlike beings in our first expansion. Instead of struggling through the expansion thanks to the loss of our blessing we are just killing things left and right. Heavensward would have been a good point where we will see that we are still to weak and needs more training but at the end of the expansion one could not really believe that there is something even stronger than us out there.

If Zenos is even stronger than our character, why did Eorzea hear nothing about him before that expansion? Why not have him and some soldiers take over all of Eorzea? I mean we would be talking about someone that can defeat a person that can take on the strongest primal and his 12 knights alone. Thats 12 highly trained knights and one old guy that turned godlike against one person! You said that the blessing and the echo does not make us really that stronger so its the WoLs own strength that helped in the defeat of this foe. So he should have that strength against a mortal person too, especially in a 1vs1. (Look at the warring triad and how fast Zurvan killed off Regula and how fast we deal with Zurvan himself)

I just find it bad story telling if we are suddenly kicked around without any good reasons. Especially since there is a high chance that we will defeat him at the end of this expansion..and after that we will suddenly have another even stronger enemy appear?

I have no problem if they had the WoD as our rivals. They are five people and the WoLs of their world so they need to be really strong too. Yet with the help of the Scions we were able to defeat them. (And they already cleaned up their world beforehand so they are no pushovers) I can see Ascians overpowering us or other godlike beings but a mere mortal? IMO its kinda SE fault since they let us defeat a being like Thordan in the first expansion. I mean I can understand that this would make it boring to some but its kinda the way if you make your character too powerful too soon. Putting that character down again and again at each new expansion to give reasons to get better will just feel like a bad solution to me since the WoL did defeat quite the enemies already.

Anyway I will hold my last bit of hope till I see the cutscene ingame. Maybe there will be a very good reason why we are looking so defeated. But if there is none..well the "facepalm" emote will be a good way to show my thoughts. x) (And after getting scenes like after the Vault where we have the reaction of a sloth, even after surviving a whole dungeon of them..well I still remain skeptic)

*puts Alphinaud and Alisea in plot armor* So..now I am ready to face stuff. May my last favorite characters still be alive after this one.

(And sorry about the "feast" thing. I am no native English speaker and I kinda just remember the sound of the word so I thought it would be the right way to write it. Still would be nice to bring more to the discussion than one sentence about grammar.)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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You have to remember Zenos is a warmonger. He has no interest in short victories and desire only to act if there is something worth a challenge. Claiming victory for the Garlean Empire now means losing the things he cares about. War and Violence in the world.

Also little amount of information about Garlemald is known outside of Garlemald as no one has been able to ever breach Garlemald's defenses or reach past the borders of Garlemald's defenses.

We also never heard much about Zenos because he does not go out of his way to perform the feats the WoL does. Zenos is only known in Garlemald for his strength, talent, and position of power thus people would treat him as any other Garleans since he does not go performing any noticable feats outside what Garleans have been known for.

Not to mention not everyone is pressured to do what the WoL does even if they are equal or stronger than WoL. The WoD only acted to save their world because everyone around them pressured them to do those things and even they said they never wanted to be Warriors of Light and only wanted a normal life of a Adventurer.

WoL does what he or she does because of obligations put on the WoL by other people because of their expectations.

If there are others equal or stronger than WoL then most likely we never heard of them is because they don't have interests in boasting about themselves or they never bother to perform feats that the WoL is constantly being pushed to do by others. Thus choosing a life less bound by expectations from others.

The WoL strength is measured by the feats he or she has achieved but not all with such strength would seek a life that the WoL has even if it is a life of Fame. (I would say fortune but we all know how lowly paid the WoL is)

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that, even if you want to discount the Blessing of Light granting us power on some occasions, the number and variety of enemies we've faced should allow us to match Zenos blow for blow thanks to sheer skill - yet what I've seen suggests he's going to curbstomp us early in 4.0. This could only be explained logically by him having some kind of power booster... that's my best guess, at least.

Anyway, since I did something like this before Heavensward, here's some fun.

Warrior of Light: A-TEN HUT!

Alphinaud: Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Alphinaud Leveilleur, and I'm puttin' together a special team, and I need me eight Scions. Eight Doman and Eorzean Scions. Now y'all mighta heard rumors about the Assault happenin' soon. Well, we'll be leavin' a little early. We're gonna be dropped into Othard, dressed as civilians, and once we're in enemy territory, as a bushwhackin' guerrilla army, we're gonna be doin' one thang and one thang only: killin' Imperials. Now I don't know 'bout 'chall, but I sure as Hells din't come outta Sharlayan, cross three thousand malms o' water, fight my way through half a' Gyr Abania, and jump outta a [kupo!] aeroship to teach the Imperials lessons in humanity. Imperial ain't got no humanity. They're the footsoldiers of a beastman hatin', mass-murderin' maniac and they need to be deestroyed. That's why any and every sumbitch we find wearin' an Imperial uniform... they're gon' die. Now I am the grandson of Louisoix Leveilleur. That means I'm from Sharlayan. But our battle plan will be the opposite of a Sharlayan resistance! We will be cruel to the Garleans, and through our cruelty they will know who we are. And they will find the evidence of our cruelty in the disemboweled, dismembered, and disfigured bodies of their kin we leave behind us. And the Garlean won't be able to help themselves but imagine the cruelty their kin endured at our hands, and our boot heels, and the edge of our knives. And the Garlean will be sickened by us, and the Garlean will talk about us, and the Garlean will fear us.

*Warrior of Light grins*

Alphinaud: And when the Garlean closes their eyes at night, and they are tortured by their subconscious for all the evil they have done, it will be with thoughts of us they are tortured with. ... SOUND GOOD?!

Scions: YES SIR!

Alphinaud: That's what I like to hear. But I got a word of warnin' for all you would-be liberators. When you join my command you take on a debit. A debit you owe me, personally. Each and every Scion under my command owes me one hundred Imperial eyes! And I want my eyes! And all y'all will get me one hundred Imperial eyes, taken from the heads of one hundred dead Imperials! Or you will die tryin'!

Yes, I am aware the Inglorious Basterds are not exactly heroic; that's half the point of the film.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

If Zenos is even stronger than our character, why did Eorzea hear nothing about him before that expansion? Why not have him and some soldiers take over all of Eorzea? I mean we would be talking about someone that can defeat a person that can take on the strongest primal and his 12 knights alone.

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It's not as simple as that. For one, we've never faced Zenos before; if Zenos has never faced us before, then Garlemald has no reason to assume him any more capable than any of the others who have failed to conquer Eorzea. Remember that Garlemald isn't attacking Eorzea at all because of the Primals; the implication is that once they have a way to permanently handle the threat, they'll commit to a takeover again, but because Primal summonings made the conquest of Othard so costly, they're holding back until the problem can be solved before it's a problem. No matter how personally skilled Zenos is with the blade, no matter what abilities or trickery or technology he has on-hand, his superiors aren't going to change tactics without him proving that he's somehow more likely to get the job done than Nael or Gaius. Where would he have had the chance to prove that?

Meanwhile, there are plenty of reasons why we may have never heard of Zenos (although we have; the False Griffin mentions him offhand in his speech), the most obvious being that his assignment was quite far from Eorzea until very recently. Then there's the fact that we don't seem to have infiltrated Garlemald to much degree at all - in fact, if I recall correctly, the most information that has ever been delivered to us on them was the result of the war of succession, after it had concluded. We don't exactly have access to the names and abilities of all Garlemald's top commanders at our fingertips. He's never come up because, until now, he's never been especially relevant.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that, even if you want to discount the Blessing of Light granting us power on some occasions, the number and variety of enemies we've faced should allow us to match Zenos blow for blow thanks to sheer skill - yet what I've seen suggests he's going to curbstomp us early in 4.0. This could only be explained logically by him having some kind of power booster... that's my best guess, at least.

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Well, let's also not forget that canonically, Regula took on four adventurers himself, including the WoL. There is some precedent for a Garlean Legatus giving us trouble when fought head-on.

I will still fall back on, Midgardsormr's words to us, when he remarked, of all our kind, none were stronger than us.

Now, there are many aspects to strength, as we know. Strong as we are, we still fell victim to an ordinary citizen drugging us to sleep, just as one example.

The only way Zenos beats us in a straight-up fight, is under extenuating circumstances of wounds, weakness, fatigue, surprise - or circumstances of character; put most succinctly by someone who said "No. You are not evil. There are some things you just won't do, no matter what. For you the end does not justify the means. (Baddie X) doesn't have that problem."

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

Well, let's also not forget that canonically, Regula took on four adventurers himself, including the WoL. There is some precedent for a Garlean Legatus giving us trouble when fought head-on.

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As I recall (since I don't have one myself), the Lore Book states that the Warrior of Light went through the Aetherochemical Research Facility and took on the Knights of the Round alone. That means every foe during 3.0's climax - van Hydrus, the sphinx, Lahabrea, Igeyorhm, their merged Ascian Prime form, and the Knights of the Round - were all, in story canon, defeated by the Warrior of Light alone. Even if you want to attribute those victories to the Blessing of Light or the help of companions, the third fight with Regula is single combat even in gameplay - and we canonically won that as well.

We also defeated Nabriales without the Blessing of Light, and Hraesvelgr attributes our victory over Nidhogg not to the power he lent us but our own strength (i.e. skill and fortitude). Many of the high-intensity fights we've come out on top of often do not allow time to go recruit a party (Chrysalis, Aetherochemical Research Facility, Knights of the Round, Sohr Khai, Final Steps of Faith, etc.) in terms of story canon. (I felt really bad leaving Moenbryda bleeding out on the floor while grinding gear since I wanted to do the Chrysalis as a NIN but my gear wasn't up to snuff yet.)

Story and gameplay are often separate things, but this goes both ways - just as we can't claim to have utterly destroyed every opponent we've gone against thanks to our stats (personally I curbstomped van Hydrus in our duel, but I know this is unlikely to be the case in terms of story canon), a villain can't just show up and trash us with no explanation as to how when in-story we've fought a massive array of powerful and skilled foes. While power can be a factor, our skill alone should allow us to match Zenos. We fought a two-story tall bug man wielding four katana simultaneously - how is it we can't take on a Garelan legatus wielding one?

I'm just looking for an explanation to that, though I suppose overthinking it like this isn't going to help, and all I can really do is hope it's more complex than "he's just naturally that much more powerful / skilled!" Well that and get the Zenos cup from Hardee's while it's still available so I can drink synthesized Cherry Vanilla Coke Zero from it while playing Stormblood, but that has nothing to do with anything.

Anyway... in-story we don't even know Zenos' name yet, only that he's the new Viceroy of Ala Mhigo and, according to the [False] Griffin, far crueler a ruler than Gaius ever was. His few lines of dialogue in the ending of "The Far Edge of Fate" identify Zenos only as "Viceroy;" other than that and the [False] Griffin's mentioning, Zenos has not even been brought up in-story.

Inside information on Garlemald is hard if not impossible to acquire (we don't even have a full map of Islabard, their home turf), so that we have not heard about him is not unreasonable. I'd say it is because he's the crown prince, but Varis only recently assumed the throne, so it's understandable.

i honestly wouldn't mind if he really were that much stronger. It's only the second expansion. It's a bit early to be demigods. Who will be a credible threat in 9.0?

But really we have no idea how he beats us. Even the "I'm gonna let you live cause you are not strong enough" part is just speculation. And I sure hope it will end up being wrong.

In keeping with the current speculation and debate on just how strong Zenos is and how and why we're apparently so easily routed by him in the trailer, I just noticed an important detail I have not yet seen mentioned that hints at how the expansion's storyline is going to be executed. Everyone seems to assume that the Resistance launches an attack on Ala Mhigo which they claim victory for, only for Zenos and Fordola to launch a feint and rout them, forcing the player to Doma to get added support.

Now, what I noticed in the trailer is right at the very end, where is shows Zenos about to strike down Derplander in the rain (the scene where Urianger? recites the most recent New Year's poem), behind Zenos can be seen not what would be assumed to be Ala Mhigan structures as seen at Rhalgr's Reach.... but that weird magitek gate that protects Doma Castle.

Therefore, what if the story gives the player a choice of which path to take, which ultimately lead to the same conclusion? What if, early on in the expansion, the player is asked to either proceed to Rhalgr's Reach and assist the Resistance in retaking Ala Mhigo, or head eastwards across the ocean to Othard with Goesetsu and Yugiri? And that at some point during both scenarios, the insurrection against the Garleans fails horribly when Zenos shows up and makes sport of the player (for whatever reason), and then they proceed to the 'other' region to regroup and gain support?

It seems to definitely make the "Two paths, two swords" line in Revolutions ring true, as well as support a comment I understand that Yoshi made a while ago about Stormblood's storyline that "the player has a choice between two scenarios early on and which path they take is up to them".

Either way, we'll find out in a few days if I'm right or horribly off the mark. :p

As for Zenos's strength, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that we just severely underestimated him, given the previous legatee we've rumbled with have been.. well.. already humbled before we fought them. Gaius was somewhat of a combat pragmatist who tended to actually prefer not to fight himself if he could help it - he only fought us in the Praetorium because we had disposed of everything else he threw at us!; Nael Ulua was already unhinged before the final battle of 1.0, and her rematch in the Second Coil was just a mere fragment of memory wearing her face; and Regula... kept running away every time we challenged him!

Zenos is clearly different to those earlier three, as he is an unknown quantity, underestimating him is probably what leads to our defeat in that scene, which also explains how Yugiri's Doman Insurrection was put down if he was that powerful (and why he was tasked with filling Gaius's vacant position as Viceroy of Ala Mhigo - what better way to finally bring those troublesome Eorzeans finally to heel?).

EDIT: And silly me just realized I made a blunder with the Revolutions line - it's not "Two paths" but "Two lives" But I guess metaphorically you can take that to mean the same thing. ;)

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

Well, let's also not forget that canonically, Regula took on four adventurers himself, including the WoL. There is some precedent for a Garlean Legatus giving us trouble when fought head-on.

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No canoncially we did everything on Azys Lla alone. So we took down Regula, two ascians plus their combined form and Thordan and his knights alone. (We were only traveling to the flying isle with our scion buddies and they split away from us before the dungeon. We simply cant have other people with us at that time since we are the first to arrive there thus nobody could even just teleport to us. And the lore book confirms it too.) Regula is later than also killed by Zurvan while we kill Zurvan too.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

i honestly wouldn't mind if he really were that much stronger. It's only the second expansion. It's a bit early to be demigods. Who will be a credible threat in 9.0?

But really we have no idea how he beats us. Even the "I'm gonna let you live cause you are not strong enough" part is just speculation. And I sure hope it will end up being wrong.

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Thats exactly the problem I have. SE already introduced so many godlike impossible looking enemies which we defeated (heck even if we had adventurers on our side in the new 24 man raid..defeating this version of Diabolos is one hell of a feat [I learned ;)]) so I just cant believe that there will be suddenly even stronger opponents especially if they are still mortal. I mean Thordan was the strongest primal till now and was fueled by the eyes (+Lahabrea), lots of prayers and even the Warring Triad and we defeated him alone. What kind of being will there be at 5.0? I wished that they had started the first expansion a bit slower. Instead of having such enemies they could have gone more about man versus dragon. Let us be saved by Hydaelyn against the Ascians instead of killing them off so easily. Let us defeat Nidhogg but only with the help of lots of people and dragons.

With that solution I would have understood that we are powerful but just still a normal mortal. Then with 4.x they could have given us enemies like Zenos that thrashes us. Overcoming him seems way more natural that way. Then with 5.0 we might destroy the first few Ascians on our own and maybe have some enemies like Diablos. And later we could have enemies like Thordan. This would have made the whole journey more realistically and still way more enjoyable and logical to me. Because you are 100% right, who are we going to defeat later? What power do they have to own to even make sense that we will not just mop the ground with them? Because right now after everything that we killed it just doesnt make sense that there is a mortal single person alive that will trash us. (Because this does not look like a stalemate)

Short version: They have made us too powerful too fast in the recent expansion thus any future expansion needs quite the enemies or strange reasons for us to loose against mortal people.

[Still good to read that there are others that find this point a little strange]

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Now, what I noticed in the trailer is right at the very end, where is shows Zenos about to strike down Derplander in the rain (the scene where Urianger? recites the most recent New Year's poem), behind Zenos can be seen not what would be assumed to be Ala Mhigan structures as seen at Rhalgr's Reach.... but that weird magitek gate that protects Doma Castle.

Therefore, what if the story gives the player a choice of which path to take, which ultimately lead to the same conclusion? What if, early on in the expansion, the player is asked to either proceed to Rhalgr's Reach and assist the Resistance in retaking Ala Mhigo, or head eastwards across the ocean to Othard with Goesetsu and Yugiri? And that at some point during both scenarios, the insurrection against the Garleans fails horribly when Zenos shows up and makes sport of the player (for whatever reason), and then they proceed to the 'other' region to regroup and gain support?

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I would find it nice to have a choice but I cant truly believe that we can either choose one or the other. From the view of the WoL why would we travel for months on a ship to go to Doma first when Ala Mhigo is right there in Eorzea? Also Eorzea is going to war with them so going to Doma first would mean that we leave them all behind from the very beginning. Also how would they do the story dungeons? I mean which level would it be, since it would be different depending on where you went first. Also why would Lyse go with us to Doma if she wants to free Ala Mhigo? No I think in the end this is one straight story line again. (I hope that this wont mean that we loose to Zenos twice >_>)

The Warrior of Light and Scions being unable to charge in and easily defeat their latest key opponent is one of the best things that can happen with the game's story. A bitter struggle is much more engaging than seeing yet another key antagonist being overwhelmed the moment that they cross blades with the Warrior of Light and his allies. The ridiculous amount of plot armour surrounding the protagonists will - hopefully - also be reduced during 4.0 so that the antagonists can be allowed to be a legitimate threat.

It's a disgrace that characters such as Regula, Gaius and Lahabrea are built up to be very strong combatants with intriguing backstories only to be swatted away like flies to appease those who seem to only be concerned with their version of the Warrior of Light immediately defeating or routing everything that bars their past. I mean, some of the same people who were stating that they wanted more nuanced antagonists are now complaining because the likes of Zenos, Fordola and Yotsuyu are implied to stick around beyond their initial appearance and prove to be legitimate threats for once.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At no point has it been implied that liberating Ala Mhigo or Doma would be 'easy'. Furthermore, the single player Final Fantasy games have almost always had fearsome opponents that can easily match or even surpass the protagonists in terms of power or skill. Sometimes they are beaten back after a bitter struggle, or some form of weakness is exploited such as arrogance or a special relic. Other times there's a deal struck - such as an opponent having a change of heart or deciding to work alongside the protagonists for the sake of the greater good. Heck, sometimes a somewhat harmless threat is underestimated and manages to cause a lot of trouble as a result. No matter which route we see the story go down I have a good feeling that it'll be both interesting and satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

No canoncially we did everything on Azys Lla alone. So we took down Regula, two ascians plus their combined form and Thordan and his knights alone. (We were only traveling to the flying isle with our scion buddies and they split away from us before the dungeon. We simply cant have other people with us at that time since we are the first to arrive there thus nobody could even just teleport to us. And the lore book confirms it too.) Regula is later than also killed by Zurvan while we kill Zurvan too.

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Even assuming that we DID do all that without assistance from other champions - what makes you so certain that Zenos wouldn't be capable of the same? It's entirely possible that, had it been him in the Singularity Reactor instead of us (and assuming he had protection from tempering) he could well have laid Thordan low with a single blow rather than the drawn-out fight we had to go through.

Additionally, just because he's Regula's peer is not reason enough to assume that the two are equal in power. Even if they were, well, we don't actually know what Regula's power was like. Never have we fought the guy to the death - he always tactically retreated. Additionally, the only reason he died to Zurvan is that he took a blow for one of his allies that he never would have taken otherwise. Essentially, we don't KNOW what Regula's potential was, because we've never had a chance to see it.

While there ARE some pretty tired tropes being handed around here, SE still has lots of room to provide us with challenges in the future, both human and otherwise. It's still too soon to say, "One on one, we should be able to beat anyone, anytime!"

Well, as I continue through the story on my alt, I am further reminded of why I really dislike discussions of what is canon or not. Do we take the in-game text as gospel, or supplementary material? Did we defeat the Warring Triad alone, or did we heed our allies advice and "gather trusted companions/champions/allies" to us in aid of our cause? Is the text in the duty finder the truth? I find it hard to beieve after 60 levels that the game needs to remind us to use it. And, please correct me in I'm wrong, but didn't Koji mention once how the lore book is written from the perspective of an Eorzean scholar/historian, and as such they only know somewhat more than the average person? Plus, historians have been known to make certain "embellishments" in their documentations (looking at you, Ancient Greece). So, for all we know this scholar is just assuming that we did this on our own to further our legend.

I understand that a lot of what I'm doing is nitpicking (and I do love playing Devil's Advocate), but at the same time I fully agree that, should we treat the lore book as canon, then how the hell can we be beaten by anything less than overwhelming numbers or some other form of unfair odds or handicap? But if we treat in-game lore as canon, well, we're inconsistently powerful (but never on the level of a demi-god without assistance from the Mother Crystal) with allies who seem to be conveniently absent when we're in danger after any given fight (such as Bismark). Obviously those inconsistancies can be swept away with head-canon or assumptions, but do we really want to go down that route?

A lot of stuff is simply a case of:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

and

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...orySegregation

With that said, one of the biggest and most common story critiques of 2.0 and 3.0 was how little screen-time and development certain antagonists received. Often they'd show up, quest text would describe them as a 'formidable threat' and then the Warrior of Light would immediately destroy them.

4.0, thankfully, appears to be putting a greater emphasis upon the expansion's antagonists and giving them some much needed love. I think it's going to be pretty great and shake things up whilst also laying the groundwork for 5.0 and 6.0.

A story where the antagonists aren't a threat just isn't interesting. One of the best things that could be done at this point in time for the sake of a compelling story is not allowing the Warrior of Light to simply waltz in and solve every problem because 'he's teh best fiter ever lolz xD'. In fact, to mitigate that I believe we're going to see a lot more intrigue where the story is concerned. 3.0 certainly had a lot of twists that made things much more difficult to solve through brute force alone.

It's not our strength that let's us defeat enemies but our skill level... I mean yeah we beat Zurvan but if he hit you it was still a huge problem... the ability to dodge his attacks is what let us win.... and if we are supposed to be alone in these battles then we are apparently face tanking every boss and still able to heal ourselves and work complex mechanics.... this is the single biggest issue I have with the single WOL theory... nevermind we are asked to completely ignore the fact we can SEE and work with 3-7 other people during those fights...

Honestly at this point I feel like our character is just living the "life" of the Warrior of Light through their own Echo similar to how in 1.0 the Player character was in the past experiencing past events from the perspective of another person due to the Echo.

It would make more sense if "party members" are canon that they are other Echo users viewing events of the WoL's life with the Player's character.

It would also explain why the WoL's life been so linear in story since through the Echo we are only experiencing the past in the WoL's place.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

It's not our strength that let's us defeat enemies but our skill level... I mean yeah we beat Zurvan but if he hit you it was still a huge problem... the ability to dodge his attacks is what let us win.... and if we are supposed to be alone in these battles then we are apparently face tanking every boss and still able to heal ourselves and work complex mechanics.... this is the single biggest issue I have with the single WOL theory... nevermind we are asked to completely ignore the fact we can SEE and work with 3-7 other people during those fights...

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It is pretty much nothing but the Echo. I don't see how skill level comes into it, except insofar as it is (significantly) amplified via the Echo. At any rate, your character is not alone in possessing it. I do hope that they are going to start scaling back on this and make the WOL suffer some hard falls, not like the ones in HW where you simply regained Hydaelyn's blessing gradually, to the point that by the point you faced the Ascian Prime/Thordan, it was nearly all back.

I am quite happy seeing Zenos give the WOL a difficult time and hope it is the least of the WOL's worries to come. In the future, I certainly would like to see Elidibus as a little more than a trial throwaway boss, if he is to be one.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It is pretty much nothing but the Echo. I don't see how skill level comes into it, except insofar as it is (significantly) amplified via the Echo. At any rate, your character is not alone in possessing it. .

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Echo isn't some sort of power boost (except non-canonically when we wipe in a trial)... all it does is protect us from tempering and let's us see through to the souls truth... Echo or no echo, if you don't dodge enemy skills they still hurt/kill... even if it was echo that still doesn't explain one person able to be healer tank and dps at the same time vs thordan and his knights... I'd say the WoL is just one of a group of WoL like the WoD came as a group (and the WoL are a group in the ARR opening movie)... we are the representative for the group...