Warrior and paying for skills the other two use for free, among other thoughts

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Originally Posted by Garver

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But here you're just describing Path optimization, not Path's purpose. Path is a really strong tool that leads to higher raid damage but with a purpose that is wrong at its base.
Obviously, being Path so unneedingly strong, optimizing it leads to really high raid dps, but the fact it is a constant ace up your sleeve makes it a thing you don't strategise over, you just use it during big bursts and immediately make the fight easier with no cost whatsoever.
I'm not questioning the raid utility of current Path, I'm questioning its reason to exist. Path is strong, but wrong. (imo)
What was Path in Heavensward, is now Reprisal, on a decently fast cooldown. That's something you can strategise over intelligently, instead of just having Path ready anytime for free.

Onslaught no rage 1000x pls!!! I'll say it, scream it, infuriate, and say it again another 1000x = p

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Originally Posted by YanDere

But here you're just describing Path optimization, not Path's purpose. Path is a really strong tool that leads to higher raid damage but with a purpose that is wrong at its base.
Obviously, being Path so unneedingly strong, optimizing it leads to really high raid dps, but the fact it is a constant ace up your sleeve makes it a thing you don't strategise over, you just use it during big bursts and immediately make the fight easier with no cost whatsoever.
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What was Path in Heavensward, is now Reprisal, on a decently fast cooldown. That's something you can strategise over intelligently, instead of just having Path ready anytime for free.

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You made a claim that it is a crutch tool that should rarely - if ever - be used in farm. I provided examples to counter that argument.

You're suggesting that 20 potency is not a cost, but 20 potency is a cost that someone like me obsesses over. If you want to squeeze every drop of efficiency out of your toolkit, you have to look outside yourself and instead observe how your actions affect your teammates. That's how you strategize your Path uptime.

It is definitely too strong as it exists now. The new Path is nowhere close to better, as you claimed earlier. Reprisal is close, but its low cooldown and ability to be on two tanks means it will function very similarly at an even lower cost: nothing. That's even less strategic than what we have now.

Well, Reprisal's cost is its cooldown.
While Path requires you to drop the same potency you drop by doing Eye instead of Block (let's not delve into that, we both know how Eye and Block should be used), Reprisal requires you to get the damage down at most once per minute, and that is its cost.
I see Reprisal as a much more strategic ability than Path is now, since strategizing over Path is only a thing in top of the top runs (gain that 20 potency as many times as possible but still use it when it helps) while Reprisal will be a great tool to work on (optimize the amount of times you use it in a fight while still fitting it where it actually helps).
I recognize I worded my post wrong, but this is the point I still feel I can make about Path.

Warrior is seemingly losing every ounce of utility without it being replaced, losing mitigation without receiving new mitigation, and due to the new gauge is going to lean more heavily on a burst DPS window than previously - which was a core issue with WAR. WAR is receiving nothing exciting, isn't being meaningfully expanded, and has been cut down across the board for practically no reason. Yes, Warrior was omnipresent in 3.x and that was a problem, but that problem was addressed with 2 simple changes: the removal of SB and the addition of slashing debuff to the staple combo for DPS. WAR damage at the top tier is only marginally ahead of PLD & DRK, it's not nearly the absurd chasm people suggest. In the current state of the game with Path and Eye changed, if PLD's had the ability to block magic damage then WAR would probably fall out of favor entirely. They contribute nothing to the team in exchange for a minor DPS boost.

Instead of rectifying this failure in SB, they're further compounding the issue. PLD & DRK are both receiving new damage, mitigation, and utility. WAR, by comparison, is only gaining new damage and is losing mitigation and utility.

To break this down, before someone tries to call me out on it:

WAR Utility
Storm's Path <removed>
Unique in having the slashing debuff central in their kit <removed>
Built-in stun <removed>
Self-Esuna <new>

WAR Mitigation
Foresight <removed>
Bloodbath <removed>
Opportunity Cost to use IB <massively increased>
Rampart <new>
Anticipation (lol) <new>

To be clear, WAR lost more mitigation than they received. Foresight, as stands, is effectively identical to Rampart in physical damage. Rampart only surpasses Foresight in magical damage. Add in the shift to how difficult it will be to justify IB's use now and you're off to a bad start. On top of that WAR lost Bloodbath, which is an incredible skill. If you don't recognize BB as, easily, one of the best mitigative tools WAR has, then you simply haven't explored a central part of their kit. BB is mitigation that directly feeds into healer DPS, which is rare when compared to other tools. There are plenty of boss phases/tankbusters from which a WAR can sustain themselves with proper use of BB in a way the other two tanks simply cannot. It works against all forms of damage, works effectively against multi-hit and single-hit tankbusters, and enables WAR to tank groups exceedingly effectively (Which can prove relevant in raids).

3 of the changes from SB, if they were in 3.x, would have entirely fixed tank balance; in fact, it may have even arguably put WAR in the doghouse.
1. SB removed
2. SE accessible in main rotation for NIN
3. PLD able to block magic

WAR didn't need to be hamstrung in order to make PLD/DRK viable, minor changes would accomplish that. Instead, WAR is being further shoved into the niche of 'damage tank', which is okay albeit a little bland, but that niche only works if the DPS they output is so disgustingly high by comparison that they stand their own. An easy comparison in 3.x is MNK, even in absurd personal DPS MNK's value to a group was easily outshined by others. WAR looks like it might be heading down a similar path as stands now.

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Originally Posted by Dement

Yes but after you overgeared content the -10% debuff was pointless and there was no reason to use path unless you were about to rip enmity off the main tank. Path was good in progression. When everyone knew a fight, it wasn't all that great. Now it has a use all the time.

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I understand your point you not wrong but not totally correct,
you not suppose to keep storm path up 100% outside learning, once your group or party master a fight an outgear the fight, then storm path come into hands on tank buster or raid buster to the party, since its outside any CD it just need to be plan ahead an be apply.
i can see why they remove the path effect since they add it to the tank utility(Reprisal - Reduce target’s outgoing damage by 10% // 5s duration // 60s cooldown
Awareness) but that was a mistake, the tank utility should be 5% only an let storm path apply 5% dmg reduction an the other 5% be apply by the skill on the tank tool skills.
is like convelenace is great on PLD since they get the extra 10% from trait, war should be still allow to apply its greatest debuff(10%) +5% +5% that is something i will consider balance"

Foresight is nowhere near as good as rampart lol. 20% def is like 10% mitigation at most, so even for physical tank busters rampart is twice as powerful for the same cd and duration. Losing bloodbath and second wind would hurt, but swapping foresight for rampart is a bargain.

but now im gonna ask all my fellow wars, what do we bring to the table besides our own selfish DPS..we got nothing anymore...all tanks can do 10% dmg reduction, SAM&NIN got slashing debuff on they rotations..
what do i give my group in moments of need?...nothing besides fellcleves.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Foresight is nowhere near as good as rampart lol. 20% def is like 10% mitigation at most, so even for physical tank busters rampart is twice as powerful for the same cd and duration. Losing bloodbath and second wind would hurt, but swapping foresight for rampart is a bargain.

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Currently, Foresight is roughly 15% mitigation. This value will, if the damage formula remains unchanged, only continue to rise as Defense values do. It stands to reason that, in time, it would actually have higher than 20% mitigation against physical damage.

Yes, Rampart is a better skill overall than Foresight, but only in magical damage fights. The reality is if you can survive a buster with Rampart, you can survive it with Foresight (Physical buster). It's still a trade-up, but it doesn't overcome the other losses in the mitigation kit for warrior.

I can't test it right now but I'm quite sure last time I tested foresight against lv 60 field mobs it was roughly 10% mitigation. I never said overall rampart would outweigh all the nerfs we'll get, but I feel that you're understating the usefulness of having another mitigation cd that works for magic damage. Considering the encounter designs we've seen, with huge infrequent damage spikes, we'll have a really good mitigation toolkit outside tank stance with rampart and raw intuition at 90s cd, vengeance and thrill at 120s cd, and holmgang at 180s cd.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I can't test it right now but I'm quite sure last time I tested foresight against lv 60 field mobs it was roughly 10% mitigation. I never said overall rampart would outweigh all the nerfs we'll get, but I feel that you're understating the usefulness of having another mitigation cd that works for magic damage. Considering the encounter designs we've seen, with huge infrequent damage spikes, we'll have a really good mitigation toolkit outside tank stance with rampart and raw intuition at 90s cd, vengeance and thrill at 120s cd, and holmgang at 180s cd.

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I can't really disagree, Rampart is going to be a nice addition and WAR will have a great deal for mitigation in Deliverance. Rampart is in no way a negative addition, it's just a bit soured by the things we're losing. I certainly won't turn my nose up at it though.

To put it into perspective, when you factor out role actions (which are universal):

Self-Healing:
PLD: Clemency
WAR: Equilibrium

Raid Mitigation:
PLD: DV, Passage of Arms

Resource-Based Mitigation:
PLD: Sheltron, Intervention
WAR: Inner Beast
DRK: TBN, DM

Free Mitigation:
90s Recast:
WAR: Raw Intuition

120s Recast:
PLD: Cover
WAR: ToB, Vengeance

180s Recast:
PLD: Sentinel, Bulwark
WAR: Holmgang
DRK: Shadow Wall

500s Recast:
DRK: Living Dead

720s Recast:
PLD: Hallowed Ground

WAR has the largest free mitigation kit. Recasts are lower, cooldowns are generally more powerful. The flip side is that resource-based mitigation is more expensive on WAR than it is on other tanks. I think the idea is that if you manage your recasts correctly, mitigation is cheaper than other tanks, but if you have to rely on your IB safety net, then you get punished harder for it. IB has been buffed in relative potency, though, presumably to keep the disparity in dps in check.

DRK is on the other end of the spectrum, with next to no free mitigation, but a very powerful resource based mitigation move in TBN. The focus is on resource management and precisely gauging when damage spikes occur, rather than recast timers.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The whole point is storm's path is your dps combo, storm's eye is your utility combo and BB is your aggro combo. You're meant to only use storm's eye to keep your damage up buff on, path is the one you spam thanks to extra beast gauge and BB is only if you need enmity.

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I'm sure you are not aware but BB combo has always been WAR's dps combo AND enmity combo at 280 potency compared to Storm's Path 250 potency. Why do you think WAR's always rip hate in their dps stance? It's because they are using the BB combo. However, I honestly see no wrong in having all 3 combos give 30 gauge respectively. Is there a reason you only want to get 20 gauge for maintaining slashing debuff, dmg buff and enmity when you can do both and gain 30 gauge respectively instead? More gauge building is only a good thing.

I'm also sure you are aware that we lost bloodbath, well all tanks lost bloodbath but I can see how OP it will be given the amount of aoe dmg all tanks have and especially for WAR. So people will spam SP combo if they want to. I just don't want to to miss out on extra gauge just because I'm trying to keep my buff/slashing up or trying to gain enmity.

Btw WAR has always had two utility combos, one for self healing and one for slashing debuff and only one dps/enmity combo. Storm's Path was never a dps combo and was only used for a small self heal and it's dmg debuff which is gone in 4.0.

With 10 extra gauge path is actually better dps wise than block combo, since the potency loss (40) is less than the potential value of the gauge: 10 gauge is half of upheaval (300/2 = 150 potency) or a fifth of fell cleave (but since fell cleave consumes 1 gcd, we need to substract the average gcd potency of a war, which is around 200-250, so that's 50-60 potency). So yeah, as it currently stands path will be a major part of our dps rotation later in 4.0.

Making block combo generate as much gauge would just bait new/bad wars to spam it without regards to the other tank's enmity lead. Even now you see enough bad wars who spam block combo against good pld/drk and rip aggro.

Necroing :D

Block an path should give 20 rage, an now with shirk that could be use as a window for some DPS gain using butcher as OT, not only that the gauge fill way too slow as MT too making the game play slower an dull, forcing us to use Path only is not a good idea we should be allow to rotate depending our position as OT/MT.

Not everybody seems to know that all 3 tanks now bring out their max potential when played defensively, and for the record you are still doing damage, if you loose aggro because not using aggro combo is tank's fault. A good tank play all 3 jobs, and if you guys are worried about paladin's max dps number, know that to output that number pld has to stand still while doing holy spirit, and in a real fight as tank you have to move, the mindset of always max dpsing is bad even for pld, tanking is the job, using a dummy to judge a job's value is stupid. Don't be a blue icon dps

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Not everybody seems to know that all 3 tanks now bring out their max potential when played defensively, and for the record you are still doing damage, if you loose aggro because not using aggro combo is tank's fault. A good tank play all 3 jobs, and if you guys are worried about paladin's max dps number, know that to output that number pld has to stand still while doing holy spirit, and in a real fight as tank you have to move, the mindset of always max dpsing is bad even for pld, tanking is the job, using a dummy to judge a job's value is stupid. Don't be a blue icon dps

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Uh no in a real fight a PLD can go all out 90% of the time and go crazy with his DPS he doesn't have to move more than any other DPS.
We'll see if it changes with Omega but as of now the handicaps you mentioned are a minor issue.

At ultimate calibur, dude you know the cc immunity is required for inner release to work right? Imagine getting stunned or knocked back when casting as a paladin.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

...and in a real fight as tank you have to move...

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I respectfully disagree. As a tank, your main job is to stand as still as possible as to not make hitting positionals difficult. The less you move the better a tank you are. Also, the big challenge is always to use your kit to the fullest while still performing mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

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Boy, bet you feel stupid now.

Lol the only situation I can think of that'd prevent you from doing your 5 holy spirits is that one phase in susano ex where the ppl who get lightning markers also get stunned, so you need to move back and forth.

I can't talk about warrior, I haven't tried the changes out yet, but DRK lost some utility too. Reprisal, low blow, delerium, scourge were all pretty big loses imo. TBN just feels like an "oh shit" skill. Like after they removed all the cooldowns and debuffs, they realized at lvl 70 they had horseshit mitigation and utility so they threw that in there to try to make up for all they they lost. There's also the issue I'm having with it not activating fast enough to soak a tank buster and it's only worse when I try to use it on a party member.

Upheaval ignores the damage penalty from Defiance. It's not a knock-off brand attack, and fell cleave isn't the only thing warrior is about.

PLD has best mitigation, best dps and best utility. So I don't see them merging PLD. I see them adding utility to WAR and DRK and perhaps some potency buffs

Provided they keep PLD healed, and NOT give them a reason to spam clemency, because one attack needs PLD to be at high HP to be strong and the other needs high MP to be strong and to gain the buff.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

First, off all your complaints comes from an assumption that you should be focusing on dps. Warriors are not DpS, they are tanks and many of the new additions are their to help them focus on that.

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The issue is WAR doesn't have any relevant utility and is designed as a DPS class that can somehow mitigate self damage. It does need a revamp.

I just hope they don't only buff WAR. If WAR gets significantly buffed and DRK goes untouched, it will be the hands-down garbage tank, full stop.

Hopefully in the last 3 pages no one mentioned this, but elephant in the room... Is no one going to mention that warrior has the best and most consistent gauge fill for less drawbacks on swap? Heck your guage fills exactly the same in Defiance or Deliverance. PLD also loses half of its guage on switch, not sure if toggling Grit does the same. Shield Oath, Sword Oath, and Grit are all GCD to turn on and a decent chunk of MP cost. PLD has no stance based potency increase, thus potencies are slightly higher, DRK has the biggest Stance based potency increase but lacks a CD based one like WAR and PLD. WAR berzerk is 5% stronger and 5s shorter than PLDs Fight or Flight. Upheaval vs. Spirits Within, prett much dead even with no stance or buffs, thats where it ends, Upheavals potency can be increased with either stance, and with a defensive CD at that. Its high end potential is going to be vastly higher. Stop underplaying Shake It Off, its not limited to just one debuff, I can already think of one spot before 70 its super nice at (final boss 69 dungeon, so far unavoidable tank buster with vuln/bleed). Everyone gave up debuff utility between low blow, reprisal, and interject. PLD mostly gave up its personal defense utility, and Provoke.
Joining the chorus of, wait for content and settling into changes before the marking the end of the world on a calendar. Also this seems to be an issue in all 3 role forums, look at everyone, not just yourself when regarding changes. This is not a bubble, you are not playing solo.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

First, off all your complaints comes from an assumption that you should be focusing on dps.

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^^ End of story.

DRK lost 3 abilities to role actions all of them except 1 which got nerfed. PLD lost several skills to role actions, but didn't completely lose any skills that aren't available via role actions. PLD also is the only tank who did not lose their stun. When it would have made more sense balance wise to just put WAR and DRK stun on GCD.

PLD has the most skill bloat and IMO the tank jobs didn't have skill bloat like the dps since many were just mitigation tools.

It will be interesting to see if they make any changes to tanks.

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Originally Posted by YanDere

cooldown availability warrior is still hands down the best by a mile

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With this in mind my prediction is that most optimal tank duo might be WAR+PLD, WAR's short to medium CD's combined with PLD support CD's there will be always cooldown ready for TB's unless they are more frequent that previously.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

^^ End of story.

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its not the end of story if you actually had a brain, Warrior lost litterally all of its utility so what the hell else besides DPS would a warrior even care about then? dont be stupid, its obvious warriors are the Samurai of the 3 tanks but our actual damage isnt even remotely far enough above PLD or DRK to make this true at all.

also anyone who keeps trying to justify Shake It Off are kidding themselves, they will never design a fight around a single skill any job has because then if you dont have said job in your group than it was be a shitty mechanic to deal with which Sqaure will never do

The eternal struggle with WAR design philosophy...

Some people fail to see that the WAR meta will always be an offensive one, since 1.0. From Steel Cyclone crits healing, to be a gimped tank in 2.0 that relied on heavy hits to sustain his HP pool and then Fell Cleaves bring dps to push content faster.

The utility here is obvious for me at least, we need more damage to justify our presence in raids, so the toolkit needs to collaborate, by removing stance penalty costing 0 gauge to do it, separate unchained from inner release shared CD, improve storm path potency to be equal as butcher's block, you still need to use BB to hold agro in case you are tanking so no biggie with this change. As for the retarded elephant in the room called Shake it Off, make it a War cry that does a party wide defensive utility since its the purpose of the CD itself.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

War got berserk, pld got fof and requiescat.

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WAR also has Storm's Eye as a permanent 20% damage increase.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

War lost bloodbath, mercy stroke and foresight with no equivalent to them (except for foresight, we got rampart) pld still has everything.

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We all lost Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke and Foresight. And PLD lost Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

WAR also has Storm's Eye as a permanent 20% damage

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And PLD has higher potencies

The war is broken , shatter, not matter how you look at it he got nothing compared to his competition.

Lost utility
damage
Skills
identify
No flexibility an ultra penalize on tank stance change
Is broken is not even the shadow of what is was, the job was downgrade in every possible way, ppl got blind by the 6 fell Cleve showcase.
They took what feel good about it an remove it for some unknown reason..the job feels rushed an untested. .

A little question to professional WARs out there.

It you're in a situation where you can keep Deliverance for the whole fight, how does WAR compare to its former self, and to the other tanks ?

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

Starting with (pld needs no nerfs) you literally have no idea what every tank has or does, let's make it quick, war has 8 actions gated behind the gauge that gets halved by stance swapping, pld got 2 actions that they don't need most of the time like war. War got berserk, pld got fof and requiescat. War lost bloodbath, mercy stroke and foresight with no equivalent to them (except for foresight, we got rampart) pld still has everything. And no matter what you say, shake it off is useless unless they design a fight with forced bad breath for tanks

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Requiescat buff only applies to 2 abilities for exactly as long as it takes to drain a mana bar spam casting, any substantial dodge cuts its bonus by about 20%. And I was taking Fight or Flight, Berserk, and Darkside to be roughly equivilent. Ive found plenty of uses for Shelltron and Interject, maybe I'm just not greedy enough to think that something that isn't more dmg for me is useful. I'd say Interject and The Blackest Night are hindered more by being ready when their useful on allies more than they are by being allegedly "usually unnecessary".
Bloodbath, given that your likely using Storm's Path waaay more often now, probably where your redeeming some of this lost self healing (how does the loss of self healing and the gain of self cleanse both bother you. Shouldn't it be one or the other?)
Could also argue that WAR is the only tank with its own TP recovery, personally I'd say it makes sense because PLD and DRK can make use of MP for a short bit to get a few ticks of TP regen in if they need to, which WAR can't, but maybe I'm just crazy and everyone should have access to it. (Before someone freaks out, I think it's fine the way it is, even if a PLD can melt TP with Total Eclipse, still dont actually NEED a personal TP regen.)
And what is with this concept of "why should I have to value cleansing myself when someone else can do it" garbage, a mechanic that automatically gives multiple cleansable debuffs already exists in SB that not a Morbol type breath. Being able to OGCD cleanse it ASAP is useful. What your saying is equivalent to saying Esuna is only useful for cleansing Doom...
And seriously... Mercy Stroke... a tiny dmg long cooldown only usable on a fraction of the fight maybe twice if its slow, bringing this into the equation... This is about as valid to me as Spirit's Within losing it's silence, which is to say not at all.

Heard dropping or applying Grit applies the same halving to the DRKs gauge, can someone confirm or deny this for me. And pretty sure I'm not crazy here, but you pretty much have to do nothing special to fill beast guage aside from continuing your rotation as normal, correct?

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Originally Posted by Derio

DRK lost 3 abilities to role actions all of them except 1 which got nerfed. PLD lost several skills to role actions, but didn't completely lose any skills that aren't available via role actions. PLD also is the only tank who did not lose their stun. When it would have made more sense balance wise to just put WAR and DRK stun on GCD.

PLD has the most skill bloat and IMO the tank jobs didn't have skill bloat like the dps since many were just mitigation tools.

It will be interesting to see if they make any changes to tanks.

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Yep, it feels bloated atm too. Just trying to find enough convenient keybinds is getting tricky. Feels pretty bloated compared to AST and SAM which I've also gotten up so far. Thankfully reworking the combo muscle memory is progressing, tho I sometimes still try to Savage Blade > Royal Authority.
Do Warrior and Dark Knight even want a high TP cost, GCD, combo interrupting stun tho? I finally moved mine to a less convenient location because my need for it is pretty low.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

A little question to professional WARs out there.

It you're in a situation where you can keep Deliverance for the whole fight, how does WAR compare to its former self, and to the other tanks ?

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Still hella janky.

Assuming absolutely nothing goes wrong, the rotation is ridiculously tight compared to what it was. The rotation in general was flipped completely on it's head, and if you mess up at all it's pretty easy to be on the wrong step of your rotation and suddenly you're missing cleaves- kind of similar to 3.0 dragoon I guess. It's tiresome and not what I signed up for. Our defensive capability is more or less the same, but the lifesteal being gone feels really really weird. Equilibrium is still kind of not really a very good option for snap enmity because of the swap cost. Pulling in deliverance is possible at equal gear levels to your party but early on it's really screwy and you're just gonna have a bad time. Inner Release... I never asked for this. Six cleaves is a meme, not fun.