Sweet, have you been thinking of how this opener would look, if extended to the 3, or 3:30 minute time stamp?
Printable View
Shinten, and Hagakure have been on plenty of people's radar, it just took us a few days to find some semblance of a basic structure, many people I believe think Midare Setsugekka is samurai's core "mechanic", "function", or "gimmick" when in fact its Hagakure, and Shinten, and your preemptive mindfulness of your Kenki, and yes I absolutely agree with you, if for whatever reason your Hagakure is coming off of cool-down, and you are sitting on sen at the very same moment, but only have 3-5 Kenki, its absolutely worth it to expend it on Shintens obviously weaved within your combos as you start to go through your buff upkeep, and work towards another Iajutsu, whether its your DoT upkeep, or a Midare.
The more I think of it, the more it seems like Hagakure was placed within the kit for this very reason, to prevent you from ever (or less likely to at the very least) use an unbuffed (no kaiten) Midare Setsugekka. It, for a lack of a better word, gives you another better alternative to the latter. Really glad you asked that question! :)
So, looking at the skills, Samurai is going to be interesting to test. It'll probably be like my MCH in Heavensward... lots of time on the test dummy trying to figure out the rotation. Definitely looks more complicated than I expected, with 3 resources to manage (TP, Sen and Kenki). Heck, it looks like they've upped the complexity level on a lot of classes with the addition of things like Heat on MCH and Ninki on Ninja.
Only thing I don't like is the lack of utility, which everyone else has been pointing out. Sure, there will be role skills now instead, but it still looks like Samurai brings nothing to the table but lots and lots of damage.
Yes I don't think samurai will secure a slot for something like super savage (at least not for high percentile first clears) but after everything is said and done, it will be what current MCH,BRD, and MNK are currently in Heavensward "damage wise". On paper currently, and this is just on paper. For something akin to a min/max composition, I see DRG,NIN,SCH,AST, I would only assume bard will be getting a slot from just the sheer fact they have buff upkeep for almost 100% of the time if they are on point for swapping out songs, and the Crit scales with drg, and sch, not to mention the drg's piercing buffs the bard. Potentially SMN may snag a spot also, Ifrit for physical, and Garuda for magic (looks similar to mch hypercharge at the launch of 3.0 not super potent) Not too sure for tanks, but currently I hear whispers of PLD doing 30% more damage than the other two tanks on napkin math. Feel free to fact check me on some of this, as I am not 100% sure on PLD, and sorry for going off on a tangent.
Thank you for posting this! I've not been really reading too much discussion until the last few days, so realizing Hagakure's potential has piqued my curiosity. I am someone who wasn't sold on Meikyo'ing at the start for an early Midare Setsugekka, but to Meikyo early to get Hagakure on cooldown, in addition to the Shintens from the Kenki earlier is a much better opener than what I had originally came up with.
My original opener that I thought up (using 2.41s recast as a baseline), came to about 247.5 potency per second over 38.22 seconds. Doing the math on your opener is 254.6 potency per second over 36.81 seconds. I didn't have Hagakure in my opener at all, opted to use Meikyo for a 2nd Kaiten'ed Midare Setsugekka after the first, as well as using Kaiten for Guren. It's interesting how the media they've been putting out pushes the Sen, which I get because it's the flashier stuff, but it's not the important part.
I'd like to add, for your opener, if you Enbi at the pull, it would allow for 1 additional Shinten, leaving you with 5 Kenki at the end.
I'll have to input that into the simulator, thanks for the input!
"I'd like to add, for your opener, if you Enbi at the pull, it would allow for 1 additional Shinten, leaving you with 5 Kenki at the end."
yep that works out quite nicely, I cant really foresee a reason not to throw out an Enbi global at the start of the pull, the extra Shinten more than makes up for the extra ramp up from one global. Good catch!
just curious as to how many of you have extended your openers into full blown rotations?
the first few of my own I tried ran into issues between the 2-3 minute marks where buffs wudnt line up, not having the right amount of sen to refresh the dot or being 2 GCDs either side of the dot (clipping)
its not as easy as using hagakure on cooldown to pump out more shintens, I am however finally sitting on a 4 min rotation where things are lining up better. its not optimized yet tho, il work on that another day
Keep us posted on anything you have past the 3:30 minute mark, and yes I am seeing a lot of similar issues with some of the rotations conceived on Reddit within the last week, with this newest iteration of the opener, I plan to see if I can follow the structure of optimal kenki consumption, and kaiten midare if and only if I have my DoT upkeep, and if Hagakure wouldn't be a better substitution at the time. I'll post the opener with rotation here when I'm finished.
Some notes and observations about SAM rotation: I have seen a few people do a mistake with their rotations and it is that they try to treat SAM as a DRG in terms of lining up their rotations perfectly (as it was the case for DRG in Heavensward). SAM has a spammy rotation and the purpose of it is to build SEN and Kenki as quickly as possible. Secondly, abilities like Hissatsu Yaten, Enbi, Hissatsu Gyoten (the dash away, dash in combo) are completely situational and are to be used not as part of our main rotation, but in cases where we otherwise would have had downtime in our DPS while dodging an AoE. The reason why dash in/dash away are situational is not only because it costs us kenki and an auto-attack, it also cost us a valuable GCD towards building a SEN that would result in higher overall DPS. In the span of a fight, if we assume that someone used dash in/dash away combo 3-4 times as part of their core rotation, that equals to 2-3 GCDs of our main rotation and 1 Iaijutsu.
With regards to rotations, I have run numerous opener simulations and I have come down to 2 builds: First one is the same as Daioh's. The second one I came up with beats the first opener slightly in terms of potency/time and abuses the fact that Iaijutsu does not break combos:
Hakaze (5K) - Yukikaze (15K) - Hakaze (20K) - Jinpu (25K) - Iaijutsu (25K) - Gekko (35K) - Hissatsu: Shinten (10K) - Hakaze (15K) - Shifu (20K) - Kasha (30K) - Hissatsu: Shinten (5K) - Hakaze (10K) - Yukikaze (20K) - Hagakure (80K) - Meikyo Shisui (80K) - Yukikaze (90K) - Hissatsu: Guren (40K) - Gekko (50K) - Hissatsu: Shinten (25K) - Kasha (35K) - Hissatsu: Kaiten (15K) - Iaijutsu (15k)
As you can see, it abuses the fact that I don't use the first SEN right away. Instead I get Jinpu first to buff the damage of Higanbana and then I cast it slightly before we get the 2nd SEN. This opener has slightly higher overall DPS gain over Daio's but it is surely not perfect since it suffers from certain shortcomings.
Final Remarks: While abusing small stuff like delaying Higanbana slightly so it gets buffed by Jinpu is definitely a step in the right direction, I firmly believe that we have to look a bit outside of the box while theorycrafting. Let me elaborate: It is no secret that the biggest inflation of DPS happens during the first 30 or so seconds when all CDs are thrown to the boss. To that end, we must take into accounts the big CDs (Battle Litany, Trick Attack etc) and try to line up our hard-hitting abilities during that window because the initial DPS gain/inflation will end up being way higher than it would have been otherwise. For instance, my rotation has higher potency/time than Daioh's. However, my rotation suffers from the fact that it only utilizes Higanbana in the first 10-15 seconds when BL or TA will be up, while Guren and Midare come way later into the opener and they will most likely not be buffed by these CDs (unless communicated otherwise with your team).
Moreover, while looking at other dps classes' rotations and how high burst they have in their openers to inflate the DPS numbers, for instance a 9x Fire IV BLM opener, I have a strong suspicion that Higanbana's DoT will most likely be buffed by Hissatsu: Kaiten so that we can keep up with the rest DPS-wise. While simulating SAM openers I was always getting that feeling that something is missing from our rotation, something does not feel as smooth. In some simulations where I assumed that Higanbana's DoT is affected by Kaiten, the opener felt more fluid and the DPS higher (which is how it should be given that we only have 1 DoT).
Last but not least, another important thing to consider is the slashing debuff and whether we have a member in the team like WAR who can apply it for us early so we can opt for an opener starting with Jnpu buff/combo, which is comparatively superior to Yukikaze combo buff wise and potency wise (despite Yukikaze being a 2-part combo).
Interestingly, I didn't see any positional requirements for SAM. That's a big plus for me, but maybe I just didn't notice . . .
Update: Something really interesting: I looked at WAR again and now they can apply Slashing Debuff with Maim instead of Storm's Eye. Maim is casted 2nd after Heavy Swing in their rotation, which is coincidentally the same timing when we would theoretically apply Slashing Debuff via Yukikaze. What does that mean in essence is that it is pointless having two classes apply the slashing debuff at the same time so we can instead get a higher benefit by opting for Hakaze-Jinpu-Gekko first rather than Hakaze-Yukikaze. Certainly, we are going to cast Hakaze-Yukikaze eventually to unlock the Settsu Sen, however, it is really great to see that we can get the superior 15% dmg increase from Jinpu first and have the slashing debuff up by WAR at the same time, instead of having only the 10% dmg increase from slashing debuff.
You\\'re not factoring the potency cost for using Kaiten. Kenki is worth potency. Your most common oGCD used cost 25 kenki and does 300 potency so let\\'s say that 1 kenki = around 12 potency. Kaiten costs 20 kenki. So that is 240 potency cost for a gain of 360 potency on an attack, that means the net gain for using Kaiten instead of using the 300 potency attack is only 120 potency. Let\\'s compare that to using the ability that converts all 3 sen into kenki. That nets you 60 kenki. At 12 potency per kenki that is a whopping 720 potency itself!
So let\\'s figure something here. While you used midare w/ Kaiten spending 20 kenki for a 1080 potency attack, that also took the oppurtunity cost of a GCD, I used the sen to kenki conversion ability which puts me at 80 kenki, so I have 960 potency banked up, allowing me to use roughly 5-6 300 potency oGCD accounting for generation from doing my combos back up to 3 sen allowing me to then do a Kaiten midare.
There are positional requirements on two of your finishers, the penalty for not meeting them is you only get 5 kenki instead of 10. That doesn't sound like a big deal on paper but when you realize that 1 kenki is worth anywhere between 8-12 potency depending on a few things that's potential a 60 potency loss per incorrect usage. That'll definitely add up throughout a fight.
Updated Opener with PoT:
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psffhpznlq.jpg
I already factored the potency cost for using Kaiten. For Kaiten to be efficient for the Kenki that we spend on it must provide 240 additional potency. The only Weaponskill that can generate that much potency is Midare Setsugekka with which Kaiten provides +360 potency for a total of 1080. From the second hardest hitting weaponskills (Gekko and Kasha) Kaiten only give +200 potency rendering it inefficient. In other words, you want to use Kaiten only with Midare Setsugekka (and when Hagakure is on cooldown, otherwise convert Sen to Kenki for more Shinten). I did the exact thing in the opener I discussed. Maybe you were confused because I used the name "Iaijutsu" instead of the actual name of the ability. The Iaijutsu I used in the end in combination with Kaiten is Midare Setsugekka.
im pretty sure converting 3 sen into kenki is a dps loss over the course of a fight and should be avoided
As Yorumi has pointed out Hagakure will bring more DPS according to this reddit post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ort=confidence
The only times using Hagakure is a loss is if: You use it with less then 3 Sen open,or you use it when you have more then 40 Kenki. Your goal is to use with 3 Sen and obtain 60 Kenki,as described in the reddit post the general rule to compare Hissatsu: Shinten as 25 Kenki = 300 Potency,meaning 5 Kenki = 60 Potency
My assumption was right. I worked around an opener that takes into account Warrior's "Maim" being cast as the second GCD to apply Slashing Debuff on the target, so that we can start our combo with Hakaze-Jinpu-Gekko and get Higanbana buffed by both Slashing Debuff and Jinpu instead of only Slashing Debuff if we started our rotation with Hakaze-Yukikaze. Here it is:
Hakaze (5K) - Jinpu (10K) - Gekko (20K) - Iaijutsu (Higanbana) (20K) - Hakaze (25K) - Shifu (30K) - Hissatsu: Shinten (5K) - Kasha (15K) - Meikyo Shisui (15K) - Gekko (25K) - Yukikaze (35K) - Hissatsu: Kaiten (15K) - Iaijutsu (Midare Setsugekka) (15K) - Kasha (25K) - Hagakure (45K) - Hakaze (50K) - Hissatsu: Guren (0K) - Jinpu (5K) - Gekko (15K) - Hakaze (20K) - Yukikaze (30K) - Hissatsu: Shinten (5K) - Hakaze (10K) - Shifu (15K) - Kasha (25K) - Hissatsu: Kaiten (5K) - Iaijutsu (Midare Setsugekka) (5K)
Edit: Corrected typo in the rotation
It' s the highest potency opener from all the simulations I have done. Important thing to note: If you plug this opener to the Excel doc made by the Reddit guy, you will get a wrong result because the spreadsheet doesn't take into account WAR's "Maim" and hence it doesn't buff anything with Slashing Resistance up until casting Yukikaze. We are pretty similar to HW Ninja in the sense that our opener will depend upon WAR applying the Slashing Debuff for us so that we don't have to start rotation with Hakaze-Yukikaze and lose potency.
The rotation is not perfect yet and I still have to run multiple simulations with what we learned here. However, if we can say one thing for certain is that Hakaze-Jinpu-Gekko-Iaijutsu (Higanbana) is the best way to start our opener, and then opting for Shifu-Kasha combo, leaving Yukikaze for the end since "Maim" will still be up. So now you have a basic foundation to build on. Where you put Hagakure and Meikyo Shisui in the opener will be the deciding factor.
The opener that was posted by Daioh, he is prioritizing using Yukikaze due to the 3-Sen needed for Hagakure and not necessarily the debuff. I can see issues of overlapping debuff's in the future due to this. Sam would be overwriting Maim out of necessity as there is no other way to attain 3 Sen without the use of Yukikaze (regardless of when the warrior uses it during the opener).
Edit: corrected, Maim changed in SB
Yes, as I said in a previous post it is not like you completely avoid Yukikaze. You will eventually cast it. However, it is a DPS loss going for Hakaze-Yukikaze first given that the WAR is going to open his DPS rotation with Heavy Swing-Maim (Maim applies the Slashing Debuff now in Stormblood). So having two people casting Slashing Resistance at the same time doesn't give us any benefit. WAR is forced to open his rotation with Heavy Swing-Maim, while SAM can theoretically open with any of the 3 combos ( 1. Jinpu-Gekko, 2. Shifu-Kasha, 3. Yukikaze), but number 1 combo (Jinpu-Gekko) happens to be the most beneficial DPS wise. After that one it is better to opt for the second (Shifu-Kasha) and finally casting Yukikaze. That way you get maximum DPS benefit and you also get your Higanbana buffed by both Jinpu and Slashing Resistance that WAR applied.
Oops, there was a mistake while typing it. Let me correct it right away:
Hakaze - Jinpu - Gekko - Iaijutsu - Hakaze - Shifu - Hissatsu: Shinten - Kasha - Meikyo Shisui - Gekko - Yukikaze - Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu - Kasha - Hagakure - Hakaze - Hissatsu: Guren - Jinpu - Gekko - Hakaze - Yukikaze - Hissatsu: Shinten - Hakaze - Shifu - Kasha - Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu
http://i.imgur.com/z1gtVaE.png
You can find a better one, for sure.
Yes, you are right. I said that myself in my post that this is not the most optimal version of the rotation (yet still better than anything else), but it will be something alone the lines. I will try to optimize Meikyo Shisui and Hagakure a bit more now that I know the most efficient way to start opener.
My time is perfectly fine dude.
GCD:2.4
GCD after Shifu: 2.16
Hakaze (2.4) - Jinpu (2.4) - Gekko (2.4)- Iaijutsu (2.4)- Hakaze (2.4)- Shifu (2.4)- Hissatsu: Shinten - Kasha (2.16)- Meikyo Shisui - Gekko (2.16)- Yukikaze (2.16)- Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu (2.16)- Kasha (2.16)- Hagakure - Hakaze (2.16)- Hissatsu: Guren - Jinpu (2.16)- Gekko (2.16)- Hakaze (2.16)- Yukikaze (2.16)- Hissatsu: Shinten - Hakaze (2.16)- Shifu (2.16)- Kasha (2.16)- Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu(2.16)
2.4 * 6 + 2.16 * 14 = 44.64
http://i.imgur.com/txkT374.png
But im sorry if i offend you, it wasn't my intention. I wont waste more time on this forum, people barely know how to sum two integers...