Please do something about mentor roulette instant-leaves

With increased perks of being a mentor, they should have increased penalties. Make the lockout an hour if they drop out of a mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

You're free to have an opinion and he's free to tell you what he thinks of your opinion. Thats pretty much the underlying reality of debate.

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and i'm free to take issue with the way he phrased his disagreement.

Welcome to free speech.

Mentor or not mentor.
Most of the time I leave a dungeon is because of the jump only dance healers or very but very poor dps you don't pay my sub.
Increase penalty won't fix sh! ¥.
It's just gonna put more items an Gil on my retainers.
The problem is not the mentor but the ppl that think SE is paying mentor in cash to teach them how to do a rotation, demanding like you own them something ..

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

With increased perks of being a mentor, they should have increased penalties. Make the lockout an hour if they drop out of a mentor roulette.

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Outside of the mentor roulette which doesn't actually reward much on its own (30 lore and 10 scripture, thats it), and an achievement for running that roulette 2000 times that awards a mount, do mentors actually get anything for being mentor status? Are there benefits I am unaware of?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Outside of the mentor roulette which doesn't actually reward much on its own (30 lore and 10 scripture, thats it), and an achievement for running that roulette 2000 times that awards a mount, do mentors actually get anything for being mentor status? Are there benefits I am unaware of?

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Social benefits, which are a powerful reward in any context.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Outside of the mentor roulette which doesn't actually reward much on its own (30 lore and 10 scripture, thats it), and an achievement for running that roulette 2000 times that awards a mount, do mentors actually get anything for being mentor status? Are there benefits I am unaware of?

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No, none at all. Is just one more roulette.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Social benefits, which are a powerful reward in any context.

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The crown has become a stigma, so no, there is no social benefits.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

The crown has become a stigma on the forum, so no, there is no social benefits for users on the forum.

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Fixed that for you. Forum memes don't extend ingame in most cases.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Fixed that for you. Forum memes don't extend ingame in most cases.

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Nope, I was talking in game. People either don't care about your crown (most common scenario), will be used "against you" or they will demand something from you. There not social benefit behind it outside a few players that believe said crown make them special... somehow.

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Originally Posted by savageink

Players are given options to give penalties to other players all the time. What do you think a kick is? Or reporting for RMT?

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Personal attacks aside, he's not wrong. There's no more reason to think that giving the players the ability to inflict penalties on other players would be abused any more than the kick function would be. Which is to say that yes, it would be abused, but not to an extent where it outweighs the benefits. Back when kick was first added, there was a ton of moaning and groaning about how trolls would now rule the game. It never happened. Neither would it happen if a player-inflicted penalty were added.

The vast majority of players would use such a function responsibly. A handful will use it spitefully. A tiny minority will use it to troll. Folks will complain on the forums about how they were unfairly penalized (in many cases, conveniently leaving out their own dickish behavior that lead to it) and it will seem like a much greater problem than it is, simply due to the fact that folks come to forums to complain.

This is FAR from a "so stupid the devs would never consider it" situation.

That would be an interesting idea. When you initiate a vote kick, the game could allow you to decide a penalty. Everyone voting would see the person being kicked, the reason, and the penalty.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Personal attacks aside, he's not wrong. There's no more reason to think that giving the players the ability to inflict penalties on other players would be abused any more than the kick function would be. Which is to say that yes, it would be abused, but not to an extent where it outweighs the benefits. Back when kick was first added, there was a ton of moaning and groaning about how trolls would now rule the game. It never happened. Neither would it happen if a player-inflicted penalty were added.

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What are the benefits though? And how does that fix the problem we were discussing here which is people leaving instantly?

I dont think we should give players the ability to punish each other - a kick is not a punishement, its removing someone from your party who makes the dungeon unpleasent (for whatever reason). Its a tool to ensure you have a good experience - not to sour that experience for someone else.
Reports are not a punishment either - they are reporting an issue to an authority thats able to look into the issue and decide wether a punishment is in order and what that punishment should be.

Seriously, the only reason people are asking for the ability to inflict punishments themself is revenge - they got screwed over, so they want to screw that person in return now. And thats nothing we need in this game - you have kicked and blacklisted the person that was making your day unpleasent and your experience less enjoyable, so they're not a bother of yours anymore.

To be fair, it's not just mentors that can be guilty of leaving a duty that just started. I've come across plenty of players who just didn't want to do particular dungeon without even trying. Ok fine, some duties really are just annoying like Aurum Vale or even the Research Facility (guessing because of the level sync), but is a temp 30min ban really worth the hassle as pretty much all duties can be done in less time than that. Definitely if someone isn't performing well enough making the run unnecessary difficulty then a leave can often be the only resort, (or a vote abandon whichever is preferable).

In all, anyone can become a mentor but you don't need to be a mentor to become a nuisance to a party.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Seriously, the only reason people are asking for the ability to inflict punishments themself is revenge - they got screwed over, so they want to screw that person in return now. And thats nothing we need in this game - you have kicked and blacklisted the person that was making your day unpleasent and your experience less enjoyable, so they're not a bother of yours anymore.

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We are going to have to agree to disagree. Your own post here indicates that the mentor's insta drop of the dungeon screws people over. And you are right; it wastes their time. But that's ok you can blacklist the person. A person who has by your own admission earlier in this thread agreed to utilize a higher standard of behavior. So we must accept bad behavior on their part because we can blacklist them and do nothing to curtail the behavior as doing so is petty revenge.. Apparently making people accountable for their actions is petty. We aren't talking about mentors who tried to help and then left. We are talking about mentors that just don't because they join and left instantaneously.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Your own post here indicates that the mentor's insta drop of the dungeon screws people over. And you are right; it wastes their time. But that's ok you can blacklist the person. A person who has by your own admission earlier in this thread agreed to utilize a higher standard of behavior. So we must accept bad behavior on their part because we can blacklist them and do nothing to curtail the behavior as doing so is petty revenge.. Apparently making people accountable for their actions is petty. We aren't talking about mentors who tried to help and then left. We are talking about mentors that just don't because they join and left instantaneously.

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First: This isnt only about mentors - we established already that everyone drops out of duties they dont like - there is more than just the mentor roulette to place someone in a duty they dont want to run. So can we please stop pretending that its only mentors screwing other people over?
Second: I spoke against a punishment decided by the other people in the party. The report-system and punishment by a more or less neutral third-party is important and should stay in place. But we dont need some sort of lynchlaw and certainly not one that would excuted in the heat of the moment.
Just look on how different and how badly people want to punish a person whos leaving a dungeon! It seems to range anywhere between 2 hour lookout of duties to lifelong ban from the game!

People are held accountable - but by the GMs if their missbehaviour is brought to their attention. You have always the option to fill out a report - and if thats to much effort for you and you rather just inflict a punishment yourself that is indeed nothing but petty revenge. If you cant bother to fill out that report and rather just hit the ban-button thats nothing but "Oh you screwed me over? I will screw you over now!"

Also: How would you punish a person leaving the dungeon? I mean... they're gone in that moment, you cant kick them and pick a harsher penalty or something like that (as suggested earlier in this thread). Would you fill in their name in a form and hit "ban this person from the DF/game for as long as I see fit"? Could you do that with just any person, regardless if you've actually met them and they did something wrong? Because if you dont want that, you'd need some to check those ban-issues... and that would be someone like the GMs, making those bans actual reports (with a punishment suggestion)...
People can and should only be hold accountable by the GMs, thats why they're there. We have to trust that they're indeed giving out proper punishments, but I rather trust them than having players scrweing each other over by being able to give out penalties.

I never said I wanted to dole out the punishment myself. Check my earlier responses. You'll see that I said players should report and gm's should dish out the punishment. However your posts are coming off like just blacklist them it solves the problem. Sure for that one person. You still have others being affected by this behavior. Later on though. No player should be able to dole out punishment. if I had to choose though my thought would be suspensions from being able to use the mentor queue. On first punishment, second punishment longer queue suspension, the third you blocked from mentoring and lose everything earned that is mentor related such as the mount.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Social benefits, which are a powerful reward in any context.

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By all means elaborate on what exactly these "social benefits" are.

I think that if someone is a mentor and they leave a mentor roulette, and get the penalty they should have their mentor status revoked for a while.

I say this as a mentor.

I don't wear my crown unless I'm doing the mentor roulette, and I'm sick of seeing mentors that don't at least try to stick it out and teach, just wearing it for vanity, It is pretty ridiculous.

I'll get someone with mentor status leave if I queue into AV without even trying, and then I'll get a run with all newbies that goes completely smooth.

Or in one case, we got Titan EX and one of the other mentors, a MCH just AFKed. :/

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Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

Most of the time I leave a dungeon is because of the jump only dance healers or very but very poor dps you don't pay my sub.

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At least you have to have tried the run before seeing that sort of problem. The bigger issue is people who leave as soon as they enter just because it's not the dungeon they were hoping for. (So basically, they want the rewards of Roulette without taking the "willing to run any of these dungeons" pattern that roulette is based on.) That's the sort of leaving that people want a harsher penalty for.

So how about if you leave before having attempted the dungeon, you get a higher penalty than if you play a while, decide the group isn't very good, and then leave?

(They'd have to decide on a way to measure what constitutes a real attempt, but I'm sure they could come up with that part. I think for vote abandon they just go by the amount of time in the instance, so they could even just use that if they want to keep it simple. But since that could lead to people AFKing by the door until the timer is up, a better measure might be time in combat or number of combat actions or some such thing. Even just having been in combat during that run would indicate some involvement before leaving.)

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think that if someone is a mentor and they leave a mentor roulette, and get the penalty they should have their mentor status revoked for a while.

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Is mentor roulette a daily bonus, like leveling roulette? Or does it have a bonus each time you run it?

If the former, I think a reasonable rule could be that if you Leave during a Mentor Roulette run, that uses up your daily chance at it, and you can't try again for the bonus until the next day.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Is mentor roulette a daily bonus, like leveling roulette? Or does it have a bonus each time you run it?

If the former, I think a reasonable rule could be that if you Leave during a Mentor Roulette run, that uses up your daily chance at it, and you can't try again for the bonus until the next day.

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Its a daily roulette like leveling etc.

Though I think the penalty should be much steeper than not being able to get Gil, or tomes, I really think they should not be allowed to be a mentor, use the NN, use the crown or the roulette for a week. XD Maybe that's harsh but I'd be ok with it.

I think most Mentors auto bail because the trial is to hard (like a Sync'd Primal) or a dungeon that can take a long time. After all, gotta do 2000 mentor roulettes for that oversized steroid pumped pegasus so they want to do the least work possible.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Is mentor roulette a daily bonus, like leveling roulette? Or does it have a bonus each time you run it?

If the former, I think a reasonable rule could be that if you Leave during a Mentor Roulette run, that uses up your daily chance at it, and you can't try again for the bonus until the next day.

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The daily reward from it is so pitiful no one would care if they used it up by bailing. Its 30 lore and 10 scripture. That's all the mentor gets for running it. Now if the daily reward was much more significant AND you burned your daily reward by bailing, THAT would probably work to get mentors to stick it out.

It not just mentors. Its normal players who join roulettes too. The mentor meme has grown old.

Next people will complain about Legacy players.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

It not just mentors. Its normal players who join roulettes too. The mentor meme has grown old.

Next people will complain about Legacy players.

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Yes other players do it too, but you know what, I don't care when they do it, they're not doing it while wearing the crown and pretending to be important. Don't do the roulette if you're not gonna put in the work.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

Yes other players do it too, but you know what, I don't care when they do it, they're not doing it while wearing the crown and pretending to be important. Don't do the roulette if you're not gonna put in the work.

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The same could and should really be said about any other roulette aswell - dont roll the dice if you're not fine with whatever outcome. I'm all for the loss of the roulette-bonus - wether its leveling, 50, 60, expert, trials, guildhest, PvP or mentor and whatever else there might be in the future - if you leave the instance you're put in, no matter wether you've joined as a mentor or not.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

The same could and should really be said about any other roulette aswell - dont roll the dice if you're not fine with whatever outcome. I'm all for the loss of the roulette-bonus - wether its leveling, 50, 60, expert, trials, guildhest, PvP or mentor and whatever else there might be in the future - if you leave the instance you're put in, no matter wether you've joined as a mentor or not.

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Yes, and there is a penalty for it, but that is not the topic of this thread, the topic is mentors doing it, and what can be done to discourage MENTORS from doing it. Not everyone else. I don't think the 30mins is enough of a punishment for people that at supposed to help teach and mentor.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

Yes other players do it too, but you know what, I don't care when they do it, they're not doing it while wearing the crown and pretending to be important. Don't do the roulette if you're not gonna put in the work.

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I keep my crown on so that players in town can approach me if they have any questions, not "pretending to be important." Man, this attitude gets tired fast.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

What are the benefits though? And how does that fix the problem we were discussing here which is people leaving instantly?

I dont think we should give players the ability to punish each other - a kick is not a punishement, its removing someone from your party who makes the dungeon unpleasent (for whatever reason). Its a tool to ensure you have a good experience - not to sour that experience for someone else.
Reports are not a punishment either - they are reporting an issue to an authority thats able to look into the issue and decide wether a punishment is in order and what that punishment should be.

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I was simply suggesting a way for AFKers to actually get a penalty. Which was to add a check box to the kick vote for afk. And if everyone voted with the box checked they would get the same 30 minutes everybody get for abandonment. That's all. I wasn't talking about mentors who abandon or giving people broad rights to mess with each other much. AFKing is a problem somebody mentioned and that was the simplest solution I could think of which would take minimal work. I also said it would depend on most people not lying to mess with others. Then I was informed that my opinion was too stupid to consider and I should keep it to myself. I laughed it off and the dude doubled down. So yeah, whatever.

Edit: I suppose if the afk button is checked it could be sent along with an instance log showing stats for proof that the guy did nothing for GM review to avoid some abuse.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I keep my crown on so that players in town can approach me if they have any questions, not "pretending to be important." Man, this attitude gets tired fast.

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-rolls eyes- I never said that everyone wearing the crown was doing that. If you're doing your job good for you, but I know many MANY other mentors that don't. I only wear my crown when I'm willing to mentor and too many people just wear it because its shiny.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

-rolls eyes- I never said that everyone wearing the crown was doing that. If you're doing your job good for you, but I know many MANY other mentors that don't. I only wear my crown when I'm willing to mentor and too many people just wear it because its shiny.

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You said that mentors leaving is a problem. I disagree, mentors leaving is just the same as everyone else. Just because I have the mentor crown on doesn't mean I have it on for duties. I have it on for reasons outside of dungeons.

If I don't want to do a duty, I'm going to leave it. Just like everyone else that does it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You said that mentors leaving is a problem. I disagree, mentors leaving is just the same as everyone else. Just because I have the mentor crown on doesn't mean I have it on for duties. I have it on for reasons outside of dungeons.

If I don't want to do a duty, I'm going to leave it. Just like everyone else that does it.

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Funny, coulda swore this was a topic about mentors leaving mentor roulettes. Oh... Wait it is.

No, if you do mentor roulette, and you afk or leave, you are a problem. You should not do mentor roulette or be allowed to do mentor roulette. If you leave other duty roulettes that are not mentor roulette, you get your penalty, but I think that you need to be held accountable if you're just leaving mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

Funny, coulda swore this was a topic about mentors leaving mentor roulettes. Oh... Wait it is.

No, if you do mentor roulette, and you afk or leave, you are a problem. You should not do mentor roulette or be allowed to do mentor roulette. If you leave other duty roulettes that are not mentor roulette, you get your penalty, but I think that you need to be held accountable if you're just leaving mentor roulette.

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Okay then, I'll keep it focused on mentor roulette.

I've gotten Sastasha four days in a row from mentor roulette. There's only so much a person can take. But based on this:

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think that if someone is a mentor and they leave a mentor roulette, and get the penalty they should have their mentor status revoked for a while.

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You think because I leave, I should... be prevented from helping players? I don't see the logic.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

Funny, coulda swore this was a topic about mentors leaving mentor roulettes. Oh... Wait it is.

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Actually the OP just assumed that the tank who left was a mentor - and then everyone else assumed that it was a mentor leaving a dungeon they got for their mentor-roulette...

Personally I believe the much bigger issue is people leaving dungeons they got as roulette at all - so I suggested a fix for that.

...and now I'm waiting for you to tell me to just open up a thread regarding that issue - but honestly, personally I dont care wether its a mentor or someone else leaving. Personally I dont care about their punishement either because I feel that I'm better off without them. If they didnt wanted to the duty, I rather have them leave than complain the whole time or ask to be kicked.

Personally I'm also getting tired of this mentor-witch-hunt - other people leaving a dungeon is just as bad and is screwing the rest of the party over just as much. The problem that needs to be fixed is rather to make people in general stay in the dungeon they got for their whatever-roulette and not so much targetted towards mentors. I do understand your point - and it makes sense that a mentor should be held to a higher standard here, but again... I'd say the real problem thats screwing people over is someone leaving a roulette-dungeon. So we should try to fix that.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Actually the OP just assumed that the tank who left was a mentor - and then everyone else assumed that it was a mentor leaving a dungeon they got for their mentor-roulette...

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This is basically what I was pointing out. How do you know the mentor was doing a mentor roulette? Unless if it's something that isn't in other roulettes, you don't. And even then, you still don't know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

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You can help people without the shiny crown. If you leave people in a roulette, just because you don't feel like doing sastasha, I really don't think you want to help people all that much, you just want the benefits of it.

I had a week where every mentor roulette I got was a EX primal, was I tired of getting them? Yes! Did I leave? No. I stuck it out each time, sometimes over an hour to help people learn. I wasn't the only one either, there were other mentors taking the lead and helping too.

As a mentor I have seen the problem, I have zoned in to have people AFK or leave, and I'm not assuming, I've seen it happen, its not a witch hunt. If you're doing your thing and actually contributing by all means, keep on keepin' on, but the defensiveness and inability to hear real and valid criticisms over a flaw in the systems is making me think you're less than savory yourself.

I don't take peoples dislike of mentors personally, because it doesn't apply to me, I suggest you take a step back and realize if it doesn't apply to you, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

I'll say this much... Barring actually disconnecting them from the game and preventing them from playing for a specific amount of time, I doubt there's many penalties that would stop people (mentors or not) from leaving a dungeon they dont like. Even if you temporarily stripped them of their mentor crown, they'd just wait it out and roll the dice again in mentor roulette. All uber harsh penalties would end up doing is lengthen queue times as less people are able to queue up cause they are sitting out penalties.

Mentor status should never have had any rewards, not even the crown by the character name. People who want to help will help regardless, but incentivizing mentoring via rewards just brings in the bad people.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think that if someone is a mentor and they leave a mentor roulette, and get the penalty they should have their mentor status revoked for a while.

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How long is "a while"....because what if I queue for mentor roulette and something happens IRL and I legitimately have to leave. I get my mentor revoked so when I maybe come back in a few hours I can no longer mentor?

Seems bad to punish people for having real lives popping up at unexpected times in my opinion. Some people have very active lives with family, work, and friends that can pop up out of no where quite often....they should all be punished for that?

Being a mentor in a video game isn't a "job"...we are still playing a game that is supposed to be "entertainment" for all players actively paying subscription.

People still want to turn this game into Punishment Simulator Online, that obsession with seeing other people getting punished is never gonna end.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

People still want to turn this game into Punishment Simulator Online, that obsession with seeing other people getting punished is never gonna end.

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I really don't get it, tbh. What do people gain by other people's punishment. It's very odd.