Are role actions a nerf?

Melee DPS lost some vital skills in Blood for Blood and Internal Release. This is potentially a nerf, depending on the final damage readings. We'll have to wait and see

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Melee DPS lost some vital skills in Blood for Blood and Internal Release. This is potentially a nerf, depending on the final damage readings. We'll have to wait and see

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I'm not sure about Ninja, but Monk got their own version with Riddle of Fire (which has the downside of making the GCD 15% slower). But we shall see.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I thinks it's pretty reasonable to expect Healers to have a job-specific tool to manage mp/emnity (because SCH has still Aetherflow+Energy Drain... they can't be taken without taking them from SMN, too, and that did not happen) and a WHM without emnity reduction is pretty much a dead man in serious fights.

So it's way more reasonable to expect 'This rolebased mp regen might just be an optional bonus for those who need it.' than expecting 'Omg, without that skill I will always run dry on MP, what is this """"choices"""?!?!'

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It sounds reasonable when talking about the MP skill, but when you apply the same logic to protect and esuna it doesn't sound as reasonable. Are they going to give every healer their own protect and then also have this second protect, or let healers keep their cleanse abilities and then give them a second one? That would be weird and redundant, and there wasn't really any indication of either of those scenarios.

They did say they were making changes to piety, so maybe MP won't be a huge problem. Or, maybe they expect healers who don't want to use lucid dream to ask BLMs to slot in their new MP ability that lets them give away 20% of their MP. Maybe they expect healers who don't want Esuna to ask BLMs to slot in Erase.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'm not sure about Ninja, but Monk got their own version with Riddle of Fire (which has the downside of making the GCD 15% slower). But we shall see.

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Ageeed.
I like the IDEA of this. Like the cross class system, its trying to give us build diversity which is a thing this game could use more of. You're supposed to pick what best suits the situation, or your play style. Like a lesser version of skill trees.

Too bad the reality is some autist fine mathematician somewhere will figure out the EXACT combination of skills that does the most damage and nobody will be allowed to bring anything else ever.

The players are truly their own worst enemy

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

According to Yoshi-P said, monk rotation hasn't changed that much. And someone said in the Reddit Discord that monk rotation was fine they just needed utility. Of course gameplay will change slightly (especially with The Forbidden Chakra) and my opener will change, but I actually don't think Monk will be that much relearning.

Besides its potency, it was a decent heal as well while soloing. Bloodbath's addition doesn't change anything because Monks already had Bloodbath as a cross class skill. My point is they took away something useful.

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As a PLD, I more than anyone should understand your point considering I have lost synergy with WHM, but I understand that with the amount of change coming that the job will play differently in 4.0, and it may well be that the skills are not missed because the battle system works differently now. The point is that you haven't "lost" mercy stroke, it has simply been replaced with new abilities. You get leg sweep, goad, diversion, and a new role skill which takes away your directional requirements, most of which are better than mercy stroke.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Too bad the reality is some autist fine mathematician somewhere will figure out the EXACT combination of skills that does the most damage and nobody will be allowed to bring anything else ever.

The players are truly their own worst enemy

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I'm not sure I agree, here. In 95% of content, nobody really cares if you're perfect; in the small amount of content where people DO care, it's arguably SE at fault more than anyone. They shouldn't be making fights that are such severe DPS / Healing / Tanking checks. So long as they design a fight around, say, 90% optimal DD output (with existing gear), nobody's going to throw a fit if you're not quite optimally specced, because the group will be clearing.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I'm not sure what the point of making people choose from these skills is. Rescue is literally a joke skill that will never be worth taking. Why would they create a scenario where your healer in Dun Scaith can't Esuna the Doom off you, but they can pull you out of the meteor circles? Do they think we don't have enough troll players?

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I wondered the same thing. Why wouldn't we keep our own personal Esunas as healers? What is the point of it taking up an action slot we can put something else in. I mostly play SCH and AST but honestly, it feels like WHM got the shaft. All the WHM CDs seem to be in that action menu.

This wouldn't be so bad if they actually intended to give us more action slots.

I also worry about the same thing for PLD, even as a tank who only plays WAR. :/

I'm kind of hoping it'll be ok. I'm trying not to worry too much. No point in freaking out until we see everything for ourselves in a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It sounds reasonable when talking about the MP skill, but when you apply the same logic to protect and esuna it doesn't sound as reasonable. Are they going to give every healer their own protect and then also have this second protect, or let healers keep their cleanse abilities and then give them a second one? That would be weird and redundant, and there wasn't really any indication of either of those scenarios.

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As said, maybe protect isn't a per design mandatory 30 min x% reduction damage buff anymore, but more like a Spread Bole is now (x% damage reduction on group for x seconds).
The current protect is weird anyway.
And if not, still only 1 healer needs to slot it. Esuna (and if one or two healers need it), depends on content. I think in 75% of all fights you don't need that ability and in many of them were you can Esuna something one healer doing that would be enough.

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They did say they were making changes to piety, so maybe MP won't be a huge problem. Or, maybe they expect healers who don't want to use lucid dream to ask BLMs to slot in their new MP ability that lets them give away 20% of their MP. Maybe they expect healers who don't want Esuna to ask BLMs to slot in Erase.

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As said. I don't think that SCH (which still has the same abilities as before, regarding mana-reg and probably also the same abilites as before regarding healing+) will be the only job with built-in tools to manage MP or buff their healing.

Right now, all we know is:

Aetherflow and Energy Drain stays on SCH
There will propably be a role based skill to reg MP.

I don't know about others, but my first thought looking at this is not "Oh no, WHM/AST only have that optional tool or have to rely on others for MP, while SCH will be even more OP regarding ressources with Aetherflow+ED+SoS", but more like "Well, I'm curious what the main-mechanic to manage your ressources will be on AST/WHM and if my playstyle with those jobs affords that additional optional reg".

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

I wondered the same thing. Why wouldn't we keep our own personal Esunas as healers? What is the point of it taking up an action slot we can put something else in. I mostly play SCH and AST but honestly, it feels like WHM got the shaft. All the WHM CDs seem to be in that action menu.

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Why should that be bad?

1) The more skills you lose to the role base system, the more new/reworked skills you get as job/class abilities to keep the same ammount of skills from HW->SB.
2) The less skills you lose to the role base system, the more old skills get consolidated/removed to keep the same ammount of skills from HW->SB.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Why should that be bad?

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As it is, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Eye for Eye are seen are required action for any healer ( when possible ). This leaves 1-2 slots for other actions, on any healer, when before it was 3-4.

It's bad IMO especially when it seems they removed Shroud and Divine Seal from WHM. I don't main WHM but I do play it on occasion and I can tell you I used those CDs all the time. Why remove them from WHM and force them to use a space in what is very limited.

Its silly.

Like I said. Trying not to worry about it too much until I see and play. But from what I can see? It could have been handled better. There was no reason in the world to remove Esuna from all the healers.

I'll leave you with this, this will be a small % of healers, but I promise you will see it ;) Thanks to Nicodemus for typing this out a few posts back.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

I wonder what the forums will look like if we start seeing healers in dungeons with these as their shared role actions:

Cleric Stance
Break
Rescue
Surecast
Eye for an Eye

"Healer please cast protect", "Sorry, I don't have Protect"
"Healer please remove this debuff", "Sorry, I don't have Esuna"
"Healer, why is it taking so long to res people?", "Sorry, I don't have Swiftcast"
"Healer why aren't you healing?", "My mp ran out and I don't have Lucid Dream"
"So what CAN you do healer?, "Oh I can give myself a 5% damage buff for 15 seconds, zap a mob and slow it, yank the BLM out of his leylines for the lawls, make myself immune to knockbacks and pulls, and give you a defensive buff with a short duration and long cooldown! :D"

I know this little fiction is ridiculous and hardly likely to ever happen unless someone is trying to troll groups, but the fact that it's even possible is frightening.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

As a PLD, I more than anyone should understand your point considering I have lost synergy with WHM, but I understand that with the amount of change coming that the job will play differently in 4.0, and it may well be that the skills are not missed because the battle system works differently now. The point is that you haven't "lost" mercy stroke, it has simply been replaced with new abilities. You get leg sweep, goad, diversion, and a new role skill which takes away your directional requirements, most of which are better than mercy stroke.

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Hmm yeah I guess I can't complain considering I really wanted an enmity reduction ability for MNK.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

It's bad IMO especially when it seems they removed Shroud and Divine Seal from WHM. I don't main WHM but I do play it on occasion and I can tell you I used those CDs all the time. Why remove them from WHM and force them to use a space in what is very limited.

Its silly.

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The only silly thing is you, not reading my entire post where i specifically state that:

"I don't know about others, but my first thought looking at this is not "Oh no, WHM/AST only have that optional tool or have to rely on others for MP, while SCH will be even more OP regarding ressources with Aetherflow+ED+SoS", but more like "Well, I'm curious what the main-mechanic to manage your ressources will be on AST/WHM and if my playstyle with those jobs affords that additional optional reg"."


Wow, you are using SoS and DS when playing WHM now? Really? Unbelievable, someone uses his jobs abilities!!!

Still doesn't mean that rolebased mp-reg and heal+ is mandatory. It does not mean that the only way for WHM to compensate their "loss" of SoS and DS is to slot it in their role-based skills.
This can also be compensated by adding new skills or reworking skills, leaving the role based SoS as a 2nd optional mp reg.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

The only silly thing is you

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I did read your post.

I'm glad you can be optimistic which is what I'm trying to do. Most of all since I keep saying that i'd hold any real judgement until we actually get the play the game with the new changes. ( if you'd like to actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions that'd be excellent. )

I don't understand why you're being so confrontational. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be concerned.

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Also if you're refering to an earlier post, my post on the last page was my first reply to this thread. It was in direct response to OP. So if you are refering to something between the pages of 2-8, Sorry I didn't read ALL of the discussion from everyone else. I just wanted to reply to OP and apparently im attacked because of it.

Moving along ;p

This is my initial concern as well since moves that jobs should already have will now have to be picked, and a max of five. So I hope they thought this through! I look forward to seeing how it works out.

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Originally Posted by TristanBlane

This is my initial concern as well since moves that jobs should already have will now have to be picked, and a max of five. So I hope they thought this through! I look forward to seeing how it works out.

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Not only that they actually seemed to remove very useful skills from jobs that used them on a regular basis

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

I did read your post.

I'm glad you can be optimistic which is what I'm trying to do. Most of all since I keep saying that i'd hold any real judgement until we actually get the play the game with the new changes. ( ifyou'd like to actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions that'd be excellent. )

I don't understand why you're being so confrontational. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to be concerned.

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It is, if you base your concerns on things like
"I used to use ability X very often and it was very vital and now it's a role based skill. That won't work."

As said 3 times now, just look at SCH.

Do you really think SCH will be the only healer with own mp reg (strong enough to likely not have to consider taking the optional) and both AST and WHM will not have anything and run dry within a minute without taking the optional?

Do you really think with the actual approach of devs to bring jobs of the same role 'in line', the WHM as the one with the crappiest MP regen by now will be shafted in MP regen and the devs won't notice that this is against the purpose?

As long as we don't know better there is no indication that abilities shifted over to role based skills are as mandatory as the same skills (by name or icon) once were.

I mean, ypu won't just lose lvl. 6 (CS), lvl. 8 (Protect), lvl. 16 (Esuna), lvl. 38 (SoS) and lvl. 40 (DS) as a WHM and take all 5 back from rolebased because you need them, while SCH only loses lvl 12 (Virus), lvl. 34 (E4E) and lvl. 40 (Leeches), takes those 3 back from rolebased and get OP by just adding a for-WHM-mandatory mp regen plus CS/protect.

They won't just give SCH acces to SoS and done, that's their healer rework, lol.

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Also if you're refering to an earlier post, my post on the last page was my first reply to this thread. It was in direct response to OP. So if you are refering to something between the pages of 2-8, Sorry I didn't read ALL of the discussion from everyone else. I just wanted to reply to OP and apparently im attacked because of it.

Moving along ;p

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Nope, I was only refering to the qupted post.

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I mean, sure you can think tha the devs suck balls in regards to balancing.
But don't try to back it with "By now in Heavensward not being able to use skill x, y, z would be very bad, so it will most likely be bad in Stormblood to not be able to use the same-in-name optional skills."


Or just look at Cleric Stance.... by now: Most mandatory ability if you want to deal damage.
In Stormblood: A 5% 15s damage buff on 90s CD therefore buffing your outgoing dps by 0,8% (100% damage uptime, instead of lets say 1000 dps you do 1010ish) to 5% (only dpsing when CS is from CD, so maybe from 200->210 dps).
(I'm aware that those calculations are not exact and maybe set a bit low... but not by much)

That doesn't sound as mandatory as before for a dpsing healer, right?

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

As it is, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Eye for Eye are seen are required action for any healer ( when possible ).

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Let's be honest, E4E is barely a required skill in most content. It's not something that could make or break your average Expert Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

As it is, Esuna, Protect, Swiftcast, Eye for Eye are seen are required action for any healer ( when possible ).

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Esuna and Eye for Eye are not required. how do AST do 4 man dungeons if E4E is required?

Lots of dungeons and trials have nothing to Esuna.

Most people won't switch skills for different content either. I know I won't, i'll pick five and that's it.

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Originally Posted by Orbiaus

Most people won't switch skills for different content either. I know I won't, i'll pick five and that's it.

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I'll probably do the same after a bit of experimentation. Cleric Stance seems too little of a DPS up to make it a must-have. I doubt I'd keep it as a constant Cross Role unless a patch has little Esuna usage. With that in mind, my line-up is probably Protect/Esuna/Swift/Lucid/Cleric OR Divine Seal lookalike. The last slot may vary if the Divine Seal lookalike is the same as it is now. (in terms of just increasing healing done).

Well personally as an AST I've always wanted Eye for an Eye, everything else is dependant on what we get as a job to be honest. Cleric Stance sounds utterly lame in this rendition, 5% is good and all but...meh, I hope Celestial Opposition extends it at the least.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

It is, if you base your concerns on things like
"I used to use ability X very often and it was very vital and now it's a role based skill. That won't work."

As said 3 times now, just look at SCH.

Do you really think SCH will be the only healer with own mp reg (strong enough to likely not have to consider taking the optional) and both AST and WHM will not have anything and run dry within a minute without taking the optional?

Do you really think with the actual approach of devs to bring jobs of the same role 'in line', the WHM as the one with the crappiest MP regen by now will be shafted in MP regen and the devs won't notice that this is against the purpose?

As long as we don't know better there is no indication that abilities shifted over to role based skills are as mandatory as the same skills (by name or icon) once were.

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I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

Lest we forget, this is the same development team that seemed oblivious to the flaws inherent in Diadem gear upon release, the same development team that cherry-picks Steps of Faith and Pharos Sirius and declares it to be definitive evidence that challenging (non-Savage) dungeons are bad, the same development team that just relocated servers across the continent and issued an utterly ridiculous statement about there being "no discernable difference" in gameplay if your ping remains below 200ms. They CONSTANTLY make decisions that run the gamut from poorly-implemented to dumb to counter-productive. That's why many of us are viewing these role-based skills with a degree of skepticism.

Another way to look at it is this: the best-case scenario is that SE modified all of these role-based skills, and that they now provide optional 'boosts' to existing abilities. At which point - again, best-case scenario - we basically have the exact same system as we have now, minus the need to level other jobs. I'd still say that's a missed opportunity.

In a worst-case scenario, SE hasn't modified the role-based skills, and we are now staring at a tidal wave of problems centering around the fact that multiple required abilities must now be manually selected by players who might not realize they're essential.

Given the possible gains and possible problems, I think basing our concerns around "I use X ability all the time in Stormblood" is quite reasonable for the moment, pending additional information.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

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There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

There is an indication. Cleric Stance will be way less mandatory to do healer dps than it is now.

It's also "the best-case scenario [...] now provide[ing an] optional 'boosts' to existing abilities.", right?

Heavy 40% for 20s, 50 potency, on a GCD doesn't sound very mandatory, too.

Pulling someone over to you every 150s? Mandatory my butt.

Surecast? Mandatory. NOT.

So why jump a horse over the hedge because of Divine Seal or Shroud?

Maybe rezz is not a 7ish s cast, but a normal 2,5s one now.
Then even Swiftcast for AST not mandatory anymore.

Maybe they finally fixed Protect as being the most boring and one of the most mandatory abilities at the same time.

The few things we know all indicate that role-based skills are optional and by way not mandatory to accomplish your given task.
We also know that SCH keeps it's thingies and that one of the goals of all this is to bring jobs of one role in line.
So SCH is another indication that the optional skills will not be mandatory for the other ones as well or that they likely have similar capabilities (or at least any capability) in the specific field.

"I use X ability all the time in Stormblood [and if they're still as mandatory and we don't get any compensation, then DEVS suck balls." is all you need to say right now. Yes, maybe they are. Maybe they are not. We'll see. But asking or assuming if they actually are, before we see, is kinda pointless.

"If they do a bad balance this game will be worse" isn't a moot point.


Even though I know that CS will be a pretty small addition, how could I say now "I won't take it"? Do I know the other options in detail? No.

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The problem is the number of abilities that many feel ARE mandatory in the shared role action list, basically limiting or outright removing any choice at all.

What do I consider mandatory for me as a healer?

Protect - Assuming it does in 4.0 what it does now, healers will be the only ones able to provide this buff.

Swiftcast - Assuming resses aren't made instant cast by default.

Lucid Dream - Assuming each healer isn't getting its own mp recovery tool (and why would they when the goal was to prune things)

Esuna - I consider the ability to cleanse debuffs essential.

That's four out of five picks I can't live without. And if Affection (the ability using the Divine Seal icon) turns out to be Divine Seal and that WHM has lost Divine Seal as a default skill, I'd be VERY hard pressed to choose any of the other choices over it. My role as a healer means that I need to be the best healer I can be and that means having all the tools I feel I need to perform that role.

Now you might say I am making a lot of assumptions here, but I say so are you. You're assuming we'll be getting replacements for all these skills moved into shared role skills or things will change so much that we won't "need" them, and I say that's a hell of an assumption. I can only go by what SE has shown so far. And what they have shown me is that 4 out of 5 of my shared role actions "choices" have already been made for me... 5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all. I'll happily endure any embarrassment if it turns out I am being overly concerned for nothing, but right now I think I am justified with my concern.

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

If the new BLM rotation is going to be as tight as it is now, I don't want to have to have to also monitor healers MP, and suddenly give 20% of my MP to a healer so they can rez/heal someone etc... in a split second to avoid a wipe. I thought this is what Ethers are for.

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And I don't want to rely on other players who may or may not do what they should to manage my own MP on my healers. I want to rely on my own personal skill for my MP management. Anything additional like a BRD song was always just a benefit but not required.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all.

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and some people further up are saying how much they need E4E.

so now you're at 6/5 that's mandatory meaning they're actually really not.

somebody is going to be going without something that someone else thinks have to be had.

Swiftcast is 100% mandatory all the time, i'm willing to believe everything else will be optional in some cases and absolutely necessary in others (at least for healers, yes, even Protect).

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

The problem is the number of abilities that many feel ARE mandatory in the shared role action list, basically limiting or outright removing any choice at all.

What do I consider mandatory for me as a healer?Protect - Assuming it does in 4.0 what it does now, healers will be the only ones able to provide this buff.

Swiftcast - Assuming resses aren't made instant cast by default.

Lucid Dream - Assuming each healer isn't getting its own mp recovery tool (and why would they when the goal was to prune things)

Esuna - I consider the ability to cleanse debuffs essential.

That's four out of five picks I can't live without. And if Affection (the ability using the Divine Seal icon) turns out to be Divine Seal and that WHM has lost Divine Seal as a default skill, I'd be VERY hard pressed to choose any of the other choices over it. My role as a healer means that I need to be the best healer I can be and that means having all the tools I feel I need to perform that role.

Now you might say I am making a lot of assumptions here, but I say so are you. You're assuming we'll be getting replacements for all these skills moved into shared role skills or things will change so much that we won't "need" them, and I say that's a hell of an assumption. I can only go by what SE has shown so far. And what they have shown me is that 4 out of 5 of my shared role actions "choices" have already been made for me... 5 if Affection turns out to be Divine Seal, so no choices at all. I'll happily endure any embarrassment if it turns out I am being overly concerned for nothing, but right now I think I am justified with my concern.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I would argue you're giving SE far more of the benefit of the doubt than many people feel inclined to do. After all, while there's no indication that abilities shifted to role-based skills are as mandatory as they are now, there's ALSO no indication that they aren't - and SE is not exactly well-known for flawlessly-balanced changes right out of the box.

Lest we forget, this is the same development team that seemed oblivious to the flaws inherent in Diadem gear upon release, the same development team that cherry-picks Steps of Faith and Pharos Sirius and declares it to be definitive evidence that challenging (non-Savage) dungeons are bad, the same development team that just relocated servers across the continent and issued an utterly ridiculous statement about there being "no discernable difference" in gameplay if your ping remains below 200ms. They CONSTANTLY make decisions that run the gamut from poorly-implemented to dumb to counter-productive. That's why many of us are viewing these role-based skills with a degree of skepticism.

Another way to look at it is this: the best-case scenario is that SE modified all of these role-based skills, and that they now provide optional 'boosts' to existing abilities. At which point - again, best-case scenario - we basically have the exact same system as we have now, minus the need to level other jobs. I'd still say that's a missed opportunity.

In a worst-case scenario, SE hasn't modified the role-based skills, and we are now staring at a tidal wave of problems centering around the fact that multiple required abilities must now be manually selected by players who might not realize they're essential.

Given the possible gains and possible problems, I think basing our concerns around "I use X ability all the time in Stormblood" is quite reasonable for the moment, pending additional information.

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these are good posts that make me worry if role actions are a nerf. Also I am concerned about DPS output balance. Can brd keep up without blood for blood and internal release? MCH without blood for blood and hawk eye for wildfire? I do understand MCH is likely much different then we know now, but does SE truly understand what we can do with rotations? will this lead to no x job allowed to do x content?

Why are healers losing protect and esuna as default? that makes no sense at all. (and maybe losing mp recovery tool and dive seal?) does this make AST too op with synergy on top of it?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

and some people further up are saying how much they need E4E.

so now you're at 6/5 that's mandatory meaning they're actually really not.

somebody is going to be going without something that someone else thinks have to be had.

Swiftcast is 100% mandatory all the time, i'm willing to believe everything else will be optional in some cases and absolutely necessary in others (at least for healers, yes, even Protect).

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But Eye for an Eye is categorically NOT mandatory for healers. Why do I say that? Because not all healers currently have access to it. It's also a long cooldown short duration defensive buff. It's something that can be done without as every AST can attest to. Much like Virus, it's a "nice to have" not an essential tool for the role.

I'll even go so far as to say Protect is not mandatory... if you don't care about bolstering the survival of your group with a powerful long term buff that can be reapplied at any time. But I'm willing to bet most healers would agree that a healer who isn't able to apply this buff to their group is missing an essential tool (assuming a single healer, statics with two healers can obviously coordinate). But I do remember several times people were not happy in my groups when I was a lowbie SCH and didnt have protect as my first cross-class skill (cleric stance was more important at those levels so was first, protect was next).

But Esuna? That's mandatory. Any healer who can't remove debuffs is a healer who can't fully do their job. It's why Leeches not being unlocked till level 40 was a sticking point for many scholars. The impact is less noticeable at lower levels but still felt. It's felt far more in the later levels.

Swiftcast is basically a given because of the insanely long cast times of the res spells. Were res spells made instant by default I would absolutely move Swiftcast to the optional category.

Lucid Dream is mandatory. Every healer needs a way to self sustain their MP, assuming they aren't the type to stand around doing nothing when no one needs healing. And considering how big a topic thats been and especially with the change to Cleric Stance, I think many players are going to expect more uptime dpsing out of healers in 4.0.


So Esuna, Swiftcast, Lucid Dream = things no healer should be without. Protect is arguably just as essential since its a powerful buff that applies to the whole group and can be kept up indefinitely. In 8 man statics that have 2 healers sure one of them could swap in something else, but in general, I think most people will expect healers to have Protect.

If Affection turns out to be a revamped replacement for Divine Seal, I think many healers will be hard pressed not to take it for those big tank pulls or those umber "oh crap!" moments. But I will concede that even if it is Divine Seal, it is something that one could live without... grudgingly.

Esuna isn't mandatory if there are no debuffs to remove on a given fight.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Lucid Dream is mandatory. Every healer needs a way to self sustain their MP, assuming they aren't the type to stand around doing nothing when no one needs healing.

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How can people play the Scholar in HW?
Its impossible without Lucid Dream (Shroud) D:

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Originally Posted by Hamada

these are good posts that make me worry if role actions are a nerf. Also I am concerned about DPS output balance. Can brd keep up without blood for blood and internal release? MCH without blood for blood and hawk eye for wildfire? I do understand MCH is likely much different then we know now, but does SE truly understand what we can do with rotations? will this lead to no x job allowed to do x content?

Why are healers losing protect and esuna as default? that makes no sense at all. (and maybe losing mp recovery tool and dive seal?) does this make AST too op with synergy on top of it?

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The idea was that there should be a uniform toolkit for each role. Certain skills that these roles were expected to have such as Provoke for all Tanks. Unfortunately they are mixed in with optional skills in the new system, and quite a few "essential" skills eat up those 5 slots. Keep in mind though that "healers" aren't losing protect... Conjurers (and by extension White Mages) are. AST and SCH currently have to cross-class it so nothing changes for them in 4.0 regarding Protect. WHM on the other hand will have to use up a slot for it. But you are correct that all healers are losing their default "cleanse" skill and have to allot one of their 5 picks to have it come 4.0.

Protect is something all healers are currently expected cross-class. I doubt that will expectation will change in 4.0

Esuna is a skill all healers get in one form or another though SCH has to wait far too long for theirs due to it being a job skill gained at 40 and not a default skill gained at 18. I'm fairly certain it will be expected for all healers to have this skill as well.

Lucid Dream is the "one size fits all" MP management tool replacement for Shroud of Saints, Luminous Aether, and maybe Aetherflow as well (I am unsure if SCH are keeping Aetherflow or if it will still recover MP). needless to say, healers are generally expected to be able to manage their mp without outside help. If SCH keeps Aetherflow as is, then Lucid Dream is an optional (and likely useless) ability for them freeing up a pick. WHM and AST absolutely need this... and SCH will too if they lose mp recovery via Aetherflow. SCH is already guaranteed losing mp recovery from Drain (which is becoming a caster dps role skill).

I don't think skills like Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes etc are essential. Those skills are merely short term self buffs that can be made up for by numbers tuning for each job. If BRD or MCH dps is seen a too low by the devs without those buff they can simply increase the potency of their skills to compensate rather than add more buff actions for them. But most people expect healers to be able to provide Protect, instantly res,and remove debuffs, just as they expect tanks to be able to taunt loose mobs or be able to pick up a boss for a tank swap.

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Originally Posted by Grimmjow_Jaegerjaques

How can people play the Scholar in HW?
Its impossible without Lucid Dream (Shroud) D:

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I apologize for not clarifying in that post you quoted:

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Lucid Dream is the "one size fits all" MP management tool replacement for Shroud of Saints, Luminous Aether, and maybe Aetherflow as well (I am unsure if SCH are keeping Aetherflow or if it will still recover MP). needless to say, healers are generally expected to be able to manage their mp without outside help. If SCH keeps Aetherflow as is, then Lucid Dream is an optional (and likely useless) ability for them freeing up a pick. WHM and AST absolutely need this... and SCH will too if they lose mp recovery via Aetherflow. SCH is already guaranteed losing mp recovery from Drain (which is becoming a caster dps role skill).

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Esuna isn't mandatory if there are no debuffs to remove on a given fight.

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Can you recall every specific encounter that has a debuff you can remove and which doesn't? Can you guarantee you wont get one of the ones requiring cleansing in a roulette? Is your group expected to wait for your cooldown to swap into Esuna when you end up in content that does have debuffs to remove? Which skill are you going to replace with Esuna when you do swap? Will you swap at the beginning of a dungeon that has debuffs or just at specific fights within that dungeon?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

I apologize for not clarifying in that post you quoted:

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Energy Drain is an Arcanist Skill, so the Scholar wont lose it ^^

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Originally Posted by Grimmjow_Jaegerjaques

Energy Drain is an Arcanist Skill, so the Scholar wont lose it ^^

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Not in 4.0 its not. Arcanists/Summoners/Scholars will no longer have Drain by default. It will have to be chosen as a shared role action and only Arcanists/Thaumaturges/Summoners/Black Mages/Red Mages will have access to it

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Not in 4.0 its not. Arcanists/Summoners/Scholars will no longer have Drain by default. It will have to be chosen as a shared role action and only Arcanists/Thaumaturges/Summoners/Black Mages/Red Mages will have access to it

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This seems like an odd change. Will SMN get something to replace it for Aetherflow stack usage?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Not in 4.0 its not. Arcanists/Summoners/Scholars will no longer have Drain by default. It will have to be chosen as a shared role action and only Arcanists/Thaumaturges/Summoners/Black Mages/Red Mages will have access to it

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SMN uses Energy Drain in the Skill Showcase, as they gain an aethertrail stack, and lose an aetherflow stack when using it.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

This seems like an odd change. Will SMN get something to replace it for Aetherflow stack usage?

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I'm not sure. We haven't seen the nitty gritty details of all the changes yet. What we do know is that Drain is moving to the caster dps shared role skills.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

SMN uses Energy Drain in the Skill Showcase, as they gain an aethertrail stack, and lose an aetherflow stack when using it.

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You are correct. Summoners can use Drain as a shared role action. Scholars however cannot. Assuming Aetherflow as a skill still exists and still restores MP, Scholars may indeed not need to take Lucid Dream, as I mentioned earlier. They will however lose some mp gain from no longer having Drain though. Likely it wont impact them too much to require Lucid Dream if Aetheflow still works as it does now.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

You are correct. Summoners can use Drain as a shared role action. Scholars however cannot.

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Of course he needs that role action for his rotation. Do you really believe that?!

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

I'm not sure. We haven't seen the nitty gritty details of all the changes yet. What we do know is that Drain is moving to the caster dps shared role skills.

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We have seen SMN using a stack to use energy drain and it affects his core HUD element. Therefore energy drain can't be a shared action.

Both SMN and SCH use Aetherflow.

As long as Energy Drain is not moved to SMN job kit instead of arcanist ones, SCH has it.