Ninja

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adelaide3

Yeah, I kind of considered that.

---

Yea, that's precisely why I placed suiton inbetween GCDs instead of prepull so as to take advantage of the clipping and have more opportunities for auto-attacks to happen.
'Tis true that clipping GCDs is a DPS loss, but in order to make everything fit in at the opener, taking some advantage of clipping GCDs for the sake of more autoattacks may be valid... only in the opener tho.


Edit: Revising again, in order to make Bhavacakra happen first within the TA window, I offer you this one:
Huton > Hide > Suiton [Prepull]
SE > GS > SF(Mug) > SE(Kas) > GS(TA) > AE(Raiton) > SE(DwaD) > GS(Duality) > AE(Bhava) [about 18 seconds at 2s GCD]
No idea where to put the Pot tho, as the time constrain for TA is already very tight there... :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

Sigmakan - it looks like your opener has TCJ resetting the ninjutsu cooldown. I am going by the assumption that it does not. I haven't seen a video where they use TCJ while ninjutsu is already on cooldown, so it remains to be seen. TCJ would be even more powerful if it does in fact resets cooldown - probably overly so.

---

There was a video where it did in fact reset the cooldown. @1:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCT-2mQRUtA

Wow, that's a good catch! You absolutely do not want to use kassatsu prior to TCJ in that case. So now the opener gets an extra guaranteed crit raiton within trick attack + potion. Roughly:

Huton - Hide - Shadewalker - Raiton on the pull - Spinning Edge - Jugulate - Gust Slash - Shadow Fang - Mug - Spinning Edge - Gust Slash - Aeolean Edge - Spinning Edge - Gust Slash - Potion + Duality - Aeolean Edge - Spinning Edge - Raiton - Gust Slash - Ten Chi Jin - Fuma Shuriken - Raiton - Suiton - Trick Attack - Shadow Fang - Dream Within a Dream + Kassatsu - Spinning Edge - Raiton

imo thats too long to get into a trick attack. Thats over 11 GCDs before trick goes up. You ideally want to get get trick up between 4-6 GCDs, as that seems to line up with other jobs the best. Next you want to get as much potency in that window.

With what I posted you get TA up quickly and get all of your oGCDs on cooldown as soon as possible. It also stacks a lot of the high potency moves underneath trick attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Suiton>Spinning>Gust>Jugulate>Aeolian>Kassatsu>Spinning>pot>Gust>Trick>Shadow Fang>Raiton>Spinning>DWD+Mug>Gust>Duality>Aeolian>TCJ>Fuma>Raiton (trick ends here)>Suiton.

---

It worries me the use of Suiton prepull and the usage of the Pot when you are leaving TA at right after the 5th GCD. It might not be very ping friendly, and even at a very low ping I feel like TA will be lost more often than not... but I think I have to test it out to see if its viable...
I would totally advise against delaying Shadow Fang tho. +48 potency increase in TA is not worth the 3 GCD delay (80 Potency loss).
Well, at least you should have anything between 72 to 84 Ninki by the time TenCJ happens in this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

Huton - Hide - Shadewalker - Raiton on the pull - Spinning Edge - Jugulate - Gust Slash - Shadow Fang - Mug - Spinning Edge - Gust Slash - Aeolean Edge - Spinning Edge - Gust Slash - Potion + Duality - Aeolean Edge - Spinning Edge - Raiton - Gust Slash - Ten Chi Jin - Fuma Shuriken - Raiton - Suiton - Trick Attack - Shadow Fang - Dream Within a Dream + Kassatsu - Spinning Edge - Raiton

---

I have to agree that this is too long an opener.
Aprox 23 seconds of uptime before TenCJ, + Mug would mean 96 Ninki by the moment of its usage.
You should have plenty of room to improve it if thats the case :/

Agreed, it looks good on paper, but a bad ping could really cause issues. And like I said, if the pull is sloppy theres a good chance you miss it. I've accidentally done trick after 5th GCD quite a few times in 3.0, so I do believe its possible. Part of me is worried that this rotation was what they had in mind and they optimized it on their in-house servers that have -13 ping lol

I've never had clipping issues with pots, so im not really worried about that part. The part that worries me is the raiton and the double oGCD. I could move mug to pre-TA if clipping is bad. The main goal is to get the 2nd raiton in TA.

I'm working with the assumption that someone else is applying slashing. In that case, youd only get 2-3 tics of shadowfang before you reapply it. By delaying the initial shadowfang you're ensuring it gets TA as well as other party buffs. I do agree that its something worth looking into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Agreed, it looks good on paper.

I'm working with the assumption that someone else is applying slashing.

---

Well, I've also used it at the 5th GCD, but if I use a Pot before that I lose TA, so thats why I comment it :/

The slashing debuff is a bit negligible in this case, since you have to do SF at some point, the slashing debuff will be applied like it or not. Besides the slashing debuff doesn't affect the DoT :/
I am not recommending the usage of SF first for the slashing debuff, but that by delaying it to the 6th GCD you lose the chance for 2 40 potency ticks from the SF DoT.

Lets say that somehow we don't get any buff in the first 5 GCDs but get +10% aside from TA by the moment SF hits on the 6th. You would gain 16 Potency out of that...
Only buffs that comes to mind that could fit this criteria are:
- Dragon's Sight from DRGs (+5% if tethered to them and remain within 6 yalms [15 seconds])
- Brotherhood from MNKs (+5% [15 seconds])
- Rook Hypercharge from MCHs(+5% [10~30 seconds]) <-- doubt this one will be delayed 6 GCDs but could happen.
- Embolden from RDM(+10%[-2% every 4s, last 20s]) <-- not sure where this is going to be.
- Balance from AST... I wouldn't consider this one as most likely will be thrown as soon as the battle begins and be present for all the first 6 GCDs.

Long story short, outside of a static it really doesn't look very worth the effort...

That's unfortunate that you lose a second due to potion. I'm fortunate enough to not lose any time. Lets hope its one of the improvements in 4.0.

I understand what you mean about losing 2 DoT tics, but in order to really determine if you lose those tics you'd have to see when the boss dies/jumps away. Once again, also depends on when raid buffs fall off. If doing SF first allows you to do another SF while some raid buffs are still active then you should certainly swap them. Swaping the SF and AE is certainly and option, depending on the fight. One "positive" about the battle changes is that we'll have a bit more agility to swap combo finishers.

I'll concede that at this point with what we know, it is probably best to do SF first.

Suiton > Spinning (empty)> Gust (pot) > SF (kas) > Spinning (jug) > Gust (TA) > AE (Raiton) > Spinning (DWD+Mug) > Gust (Dual) > AE (TCJ + Fuma + Raiton + Suiton)

If the double oGCD causes too much clipping, could move the mug to pre-TA, there's still a free oGCD slot.

I'll play around with it tonight to see the feasibility of this opener. If I can finish that AE with >2.75s left on TA then it should definitely be feasible. Even if the Raiton falls outside the TA window, its likely still worthwile to do TCJ during TA

I still feel like you're hurting yourselves with Suiton prior to Ten Chi Jin on these openers. Doing the math, I have my opener at 9970.9 potency over 31.56 seconds. Arkenne's comes in at 9196.4 and Sigmakan's comes in at 9361.5 over the same time frame. It's quite a large potency gap all to get trick out 15 seconds sooner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

I still feel like you're hurting yourselves with Suiton prior to Ten Chi Jin on these openers.

---

Hrmm there is one thing about your opener there, now that I re-check it...
You are using:
Raiton prepull < ok with this
20 seconds later Raiton again < alright?
Ten Chi Jin - Shu Rai Sui < this... is the issue

The tooltip for Ten Chi Jin specifies that it will reset your Ninjutsu back twice. This may imply that if the clock is going in the mudras it will refresh them back to 0 and that may count as the 1st reset. So you may not be able to go Raiton > Ten Chi Jin - ShuRaiSui but Raiton > TenChiJin - RaiSui at most :/

At the one shown video, the guy shows Ten Chi Jin in action only once while mudras are on cooldown, and fails it, never actually showing its full mechanic... Mr Happy does the same... and at the official ability showcase video the NIN actually waits 20 seconds from Raiton till using Ten Chi Jin at all :/

So this aspect which is key for this opener you suggest is yet in the dark...

Well, in the Avalonstar video, he uses Ten Chi Jin, his ninjutsu cooldown resets to 0, and then he uses a successful 3 mudra huton followed by repeated bunnying. The fact that he was able to use a 3 mudra huton suggests that upon casting ten chi jin the mudra combination is cleared in addition to ninjutsu cooldown being reset, otherwise his huton should have failed as a 6 mudra combination (since he also used huton as his ninjutsu 10 seconds prior). His subsequent ninjutsus failed because they registered as 4+ mudra combinations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

Well, in the Avalonstar video, he uses Ten Chi Jin, his ninjutsu cooldown resets to 0, and then he uses a successful 3 mudra huton followed by repeated bunnying. The fact that he was able to use a 3 mudra huton suggests that upon casting ten chi jin the mudra combination is cleared in addition to ninjutsu cooldown being reset, otherwise his huton should have failed as a 6 mudra combination (since he also used huton as his ninjutsu 10 seconds prior). His subsequent ninjutsus failed because they registered as 4+ mudra combinations.

---

We'll have to see, if thats really the case Ten Chi Jin should never be used while Mudras are off CD, neither along with Kassatsu.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkenne

Yea, that's precisely why I placed suiton inbetween GCDs instead of prepull so as to take advantage of the clipping and have more opportunities for auto-attacks to happen.
'Tis true that clipping GCDs is a DPS loss, but in order to make everything fit in at the opener, taking some advantage of clipping GCDs for the sake of more autoattacks may be valid... only in the opener tho.


Edit: Revising again, in order to make Bhavacakra happen first within the TA window, I offer you this one:
Huton > Hide > Suiton [Prepull]
SE > GS > SF(Mug) > SE(Kas) > GS(TA) > AE(Raiton) > SE(DwaD) > GS(Duality) > AE(Bhava) [about 18 seconds at 2s GCD]
No idea where to put the Pot tho, as the time constrain for TA is already very tight there... :/

---

Thank you for this, helped me envision the whole picture better.

http://ffxivrotations.com/qoo(Hyoton symbolizes Bhavacakra and no more off global cooldowns are factored in past this point)

Huton>Hide>Suiton />Spinning Edge>Kassatsu>Gust Slash>Dex Potion>Shadow Fang>Mug>Spinning Edge>Jugulate>Gust Slash>Trick Attack>Aeolian Edge>Raiton>Spinning Edge>Dream within a Dream>Gust Slash>Duality>Aeolian Edge>Bhavacakra.

Edit* Fixed some things. I Wanted to steer away a little from what you posted but it didn't work out too well.

Edit*2 http://ffxivrotations.com/qph Better version that puts Mug on cooldown right away and Dex potion a couple gcd's later and gets Jugulate into TA.
Suiton/>SE>Mug>GS>Kass>SF>SE>Pot>GS>TA+Duality>AE>Raiton>SE>DwaD+Jug>GS>AE>Bhavacakra (T-C-J for second Trick Attack application)

If a boss fight has more than one mob at the start, use either TCJ with Katon/Doton or Frog instead of Bhavacakra depending.

Hi fellow ninja. I really no want to leave ninja. I had been maining this since mid arr... its my second job since I realise tanking as pld is stressful.

Had done endgame with this... flow so smooth...

Well, its true that the GCD rotation for NIN got so simple that is plain (and painfully) dead easy.
From all the melees, its the one with the least combos now :/
It's something so weird given the double daggers and all...
Oh well, at least we are magical~♪ (I guess?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkenne

Edit: Revising again, in order to make Bhavacakra happen first within the TA window, I offer you this one:
Huton > Hide > Suiton [Prepull]
SE > GS > SF(Mug) > SE(Kas) > GS(TA) > AE(Raiton) > SE(DwaD) > GS(Duality) > AE(Bhava) [about 18 seconds at 2s GCD]
No idea where to put the Pot tho, as the time constrain for TA is already very tight there... :/

---

So are you waiting for a kassatsu to do the full rotation again? You can get 2 trick attacks in before you do this rotation again but I don't think it's worth using mug/duality/bha until kassatsu is ready?

Also when do you use TCJ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klarkus

Also when do you use TCJ?

---

Ten Chi Jin is used alongside your second Trick Attack and the Ninki gauge should fill up again by the time TA comes off of cooldown. The reasoning for this is so that we don't have to clip our GCD by hard casting Suiton. Also, we get to use Bhavacakra again for our third Ninki charge. I'm pretty sure this is going to be a DPS gain.

edit, I also altered the build in my other post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klarkus

Also when do you use TCJ?

---

Personally I am going for the Ninki cycle of TenCJ > Bhava > Frog > Bhava > Repeat.
I wrote that opener as to help Adelaide3 with their version. I mean, its not like I'm looking for the perfect opener and personally I like to have multiple options.
What if for whatever reason TenCJ isn't ready for the pull and I'm at 0 Ninki? Or what if I know the boss has an add phase at 1 minute later mark? I really would prefer to delay TenCJ there.

Also there are stuff still in the dark about TenCJ... like what happens if mudras were on cooldown? They reset, yea, but can we cast 3 Ninjutsus still? or only 2?
If 3, we don't wanna use TenCJ while mudras are off cooldown, neither with Kassatsu. If 2... well thats more reasonable as the former sounds op.

The build I will be using: http://ffxivrotations.com/qph (Hyoton=Bhavacakra)

The build I made for everyone else: http://ffxivrotations.com/qpk (TJC{katon/doton}) *edited because potion was in wrong spot
You have to hard cast Suiton for your first three Trick Attacks so it's just awful imo.

Trick Attack here is within eight gcd's, if waiting on the ninjitsu timer it would be at like ten or eleven gcd's and that threshold is too high in relation to the timing that we want to hit TA at. The only other option to using Kassatsu on Ten Chi Jin is if we don't use Raiton at the beginning and save it for the basic Suiton cast. It might be a dps Increase though, here's the alteraton:http://ffxivrotations.com/qpr

edit*1/2 I guess now that I think about this second build, I like it more and more. Just have to pair them up against eachother once SB launches. Nine global cooldowns + Mug is what it takes to reach 80 Ninki unless I made a mistake.

Most likely, yes, one needs aprox 9 GCDs to get to the 80 Ninki with Mug.

Its killing me the unknown factor of what happens with TenCJ if Mudras are on CD tho...
Because if TenCJ enables 3 Ninjutsus even if its on CD, it means 5 Jutsus in a row... Natural + Kassatsu + 3 TenCJ
But if it doesn't...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adelaide3

Ten Chi Jin is used alongside your second Trick Attack and the Ninki gauge should fill up again by the time TA comes off of cooldown. The reasoning for this is so that we don't have to clip our GCD by hard casting Suiton. Also, we get to use Bhavacakra again for our third Ninki charge. I'm pretty sure this is going to be a DPS gain.

edit, I also altered the build in my other post

---

With regards to Bhavacakra vs TCJ on the opener. The winner between these two will be largely dependent on encounter length and design. TCJ opener starts ahead, Bhava opener pulls even at 160 ninki, Bhava opener takes the lead at 240 ninki (when it's on 2nd Bhava vs frog), and they even up again at 320 ninki, repeating thereafter. This is only taking into effect the ninki moves themselves and not how they work with the rest of the rotation. Running the numbers on the Bhava opener you posted vs my opener they are very close after the 2nd ninki. My opener still has a potency lead, which it will maintain until 240 ninki*. This is discounting the effect of potion which is harder to put a potency value on - having TCJ boosted by pot in the opener is also a nice bonus.

*edit: tbh I haven't run the numbers to 240 ninki, so that's just an assumption.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

With regards to Bhavacakra vs TCJ on the opener. The winner between these two will be largely dependent on encounter length and design.

---

Gotta agree that it'll depend on the battle design... and also there are other factors to take into account...

I am pretty sure the opener will differ if we already have 100 Ninki for example. Or slightly different if we have like 30 or so.
We've yet to see what happens to Ninki if we wipe, does it go back to 0? or will it retain its current number? or will we res with the bar maxed out??
My bet is on the 1st :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

Well, in the Avalonstar video, he uses Ten Chi Jin, his ninjutsu cooldown resets to 0, and then he uses a successful 3 mudra huton followed by repeated bunnying. The fact that he was able to use a 3 mudra huton suggests that upon casting ten chi jin the mudra combination is cleared in addition to ninjutsu cooldown being reset, otherwise his huton should have failed as a 6 mudra combination (since he also used huton as his ninjutsu 10 seconds prior). His subsequent ninjutsus failed because they registered as 4+ mudra combinations.

---

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ed_with_skill/
I regret ever doubting you. I wrote off the huton showing up in ten chi jin as a glitch in the system when I should have figured out that the Ten Chi Jin tooltip was wrong about only resetting ninjitsu twice.

edit* I consolidated everything into a single opener for starting with TCJ: http://ffxivrotations.com/qqr
This gets things on cooldown faster with a little bit better of a damage curve. Dex potion should end right after hitting the kassatsu'd raiton.

The Bhavacakra opener remains unchanged

I think ideally you'd want your potion to also be in effect for TCJ. I also think you can get TA and TCJ out much quicker. Here is the rotation I have:
http://ffxivrotations.com/qqv

It needs a bit more oGCD optimization, but I do think doing TA after the 5th GCD results in the best opener.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adelaide3

I regret ever doubting you.

---

I wanna believe but... that reddit post only says what we already knew from the videos before... TenCJ resets the CD of mudras but,

Does that count as the 1st reset so we can only do ShuRai?
Or can we still do ShuRaiSui?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

http://ffxivrotations.com/qqv

---

Try by swapping Jugulate with Mug, also leave Jugulate for after TenCJ since leaving an 80 potency skill out of TA is not that much of a loss. (Or after the first Spinning Edge since you get its CD running earlier)
You missed Duality, but I suppose its supposed to be right before the AE in TA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

I think ideally you'd want your potion to also be in effect for TCJ. I also think you can get TA and TCJ out much quicker. Here is the rotation I have:
http://ffxivrotations.com/qqv

It needs a bit more oGCD optimization, but I do think doing TA after the 5th GCD results in the best opener.

---

Optimized version would be the Bhavacakra opener:
http://ffxivrotations.com/qr0

Only one problem, Trick Attack won't last long enough for Ten Chi Jin so I came up with that other one to show what it takes to use it in an opener and to still have everything fit. Although, I don't think it would be a problem to just use TCJ outside of TA so just have this opener for everything based on add phases and preference.

Edit* Please don't hurt my soul by using TCJ with this opener when you can land Bhava with TA and Potion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkenne

Try by swapping Jugulate with Mug, also leave Jugulate for after TenCJ since leaving an 80 potency skill out of TA is not that much of a loss. (Or after the first Spinning Edge since you get its CD running earlier)
You missed Duality, but I suppose its supposed to be right before the AE in TA.

---

Ah yeah, I dragged duality up there but I guess it didn't stick. If there is too much GCD clipping with the double weave I'll pull mug out of TA and put it in front, but I wouldn't replace it with Jug. And yes, if need be, Jug can be moved after TA, but there is a few open oGCD "slots" prior to TA now that we don't have IR and B4B.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

There is a few open oGCD "slots" prior to TA now that we don't have IR and B4B.

---

Yea that editor gets me a bit irked cuz if I miss one thing I have to delete it all since it won't let me drag-and-drop to where I want it to be.
And yep, I would say to put Jugulate after the first Spinning Edge, since you have it open. I belive it is more useful to have it running early than hold it up for TA/Slashing debuff since it has a very short CD :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adelaide3

I don't think it would be a problem to just use TCJ outside of TA

---

Again, TCJ(SRS) in TA is 156 extra potency... by far the highest you could put in there :/
If possible to put them in, it should be for the best.
Then again, if TCJ can reset the Mudras to 0 and still let you use 3 Ninjutsus, I'm totally in favor to kick TCJ out of the first TA.

I switched to nin main sometime in 2.x and the change that saddens me is the loss of Dancing Edge, I am fine with changes to what it does or even if it were to be made into some sort of oGCD WS or one trigged by certain ninjutsu or other proc.....I just really liked its animation and am saddened it is disappearing... -.-,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kartisan

the loss of Dancing Edge. -.-,

---

That moment when you realize NIN has less GCDs than PLD... :/
I also like DE animation more than AE :/ (even if its actually 3 slashes with the right hand dagger only).

...

Actually, why do we have 2 daggers again?? SE and GS can easily be done with one dagger and all AE, DE and AC are a single dagger hit animation...

In fact MU, DwaD and TA/SA are the only skills that use both daggers...

How are you going to get TCJ in with the second trick attack when it takes 20 seconds for ninjutsu? You've still gotta wait for it as TCJ isn't a skill it's just a combo which means when you cast suiton you get 10 seconds before trick attack the 10 seconds during trick attack then you can cast TCJ which will be the end of vulnerability. So it won't work.

Never mind I didn't know it was an actual skill. In which case from the video it definitely does reset ninjitsu so you will be able to get the TCJ combos in with trick attack. Gg.

I think I'll go with this one
Covers everything I want, altho the pot usage still feels iffy for TA's sake it might just work (I better invest in some SkS).

If for whatever reason TCJ counts the mudra reset on its cast as the 1st one, all I lose is a 360 potency Suiton outside TA there, I rather have a guaranteed crit 360 potency Raiton in TA if thats the case.

TCJ does not line up with the 2nd trick attack in any of the proposed openers so far.

With the Bhavacakra opener you are using 1st trick at ~8 seconds and TCJ will be ready around ~43 seconds (depending on auto attack speed, just an estimate). 2nd trick comes out around 68 seconds, so 2nd Bhava should also be able to line up in trick attack, which is nice. 2nd TCJ comes off of cooldown around 143 seconds, so it could be worked into the 4th trick attack or use the last Suiton to start trick attack.

With TA before 1st TCJ opener, you can also work TCJ into your 3rd TA by delaying it slightly. The Suiton from TCJ #3 could also be used to start TA #5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

TCJ does not line up with the 2nd trick attack in any of the proposed openers so far.

---

Uuh... but I was looking for an opener that could have TCJ on the first TA?
Besides, given the nature of Ninki generation, I find the alignments of CDs with Ninki skills rather unreliable outside the first 20 seconds...
Past that it seems like it will really differ depending on the battle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkenne

Uuh... but I was looking for an opener that could have TCJ on the first TA?
Besides, given the nature of Ninki generation, I find the alignments of CDs with Ninki skills rather unreliable outside the first 20 seconds...
Past that it seems like it will really differ depending on the battle.

---

I wasn't responding to you, sorry. TCJ aligned with 1st TA is easy, of course. There was talk of TCJ aligning with 2nd Trick, which Klarkus was asking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

There was talk of TCJ aligning with 2nd Trick.

---

Hrm... I see, I need to learn to read properly, lately I've had many of these mistakes...

Ten Chi Jin should only ever be used in order to apply every second Trick Attack. Ninki charges to 100 and Suiton lasts for 10 seconds so even if Trick Attack isn't ready by the time your TCJ is ready then it's no problem at all because you can create the time that you need.

I don't know about you guys, but i'm actually trying to get away from hard casting Suiton during boss fights because that's alot of global cooldowns lost.

You're going to be wasting ninki with this strategy. If you have a 2.108 auto attack speed you'll reach 180 ninki at 50.59 seconds after engaging. You're going to sacrifice about 3 auto attacks worth of ninki holding at 100 if you wait to use TCJ so the suiton comes out 10 seconds before trick. This issue will continue down the line; TCJ's cooldown is 100 seconds while trick is only 60, so trying to keep them lined up is problematic. You also want to keep TCJ lined up directly after ninjutsu as much as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

You're going to be wasting ninki with this strategy. If you have a 2.108 auto attack speed you'll reach 180 ninki at 50.59 seconds after engaging. You're going to sacrifice about 3 auto attacks worth of ninki holding at 100 if you wait to use TCJ so the suiton comes out 10 seconds before trick. This issue will continue down the line; TCJ's cooldown is 100 seconds while trick is only 60, so trying to keep them lined up is problematic. You also want to keep TCJ lined up directly after ninjutsu as much as possible.

---

So are you saying its best to use TCJ in the opener with trick attack or bhava and TCJ for second trick attack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klarkus

So are you saying its best to use TCJ in the opener with trick attack or bhava and TCJ for second trick attack

---

I'm still of the opinion that TCJ needs to be in the opener. My proposed opener (TCJ before trick) still shows the highest PPS to where I've taken them (240 ninki). However, the way TCJ can align with TA further down the rotation in the more popular opener (TA into TCJ) as previously described is appealing and starting to sway me in that direction.

It's worth noting again that the Bhava opener is vastly better for encounters with an early add phase. TCJ, while very strong for single target, is completely bananas for AOE.