PVP changes from livestream.

PvP has been saved and people are crying about the changes??? PvP NEEDED a good change ASAP it was boring and Dire and felt stiff.

It feels more appealing and PvP focus with its own skills.

I am extremely happy for the changes it was NEEDED

I understand it's difficult to balance PVP from the existing PVE abilities and keep tweaking it over time, but even if high level pvp is currently daunting for newcomers, at least there's some complexity and brainwork to it. Will have to wait and see to know for sure but this just sounds extremely dull. On the good side, with 9 abilities, everything will be controller friendly...

Something to keep in mind, this "dumb downed" approach allows the devs to better experiment with PvP in the future. If things do become too pedantic, they can add abilities back or better incorporate crowd control options. Currently, they had decidedly little wiggle room because everything revolved around assuring PvE balance wasn't upset. Furthermore, we all have to appreciate the casual playerbase significantly outweighs the hardcore. They want more people playing PvP. So for those throwing up their hands and calling it quits already, if five new players join... that's a net gain from a developer perspective. Simply put, it is far too early to being throwing a fit until we actually see what has been implemented and how it'll function overall. If they include more strategic modes and areas, that could easily make for a more dynamic PvP environment despite having less skills.

12-14 abilities are plenty for pvp. That\\\\\\'s about 20 abilities if you account for the fact that they consolidated the combos.

For those that say it isn\\\\\\'t, take a serious look at the abilitied you actually use in pvp. I\\\\\\'d wager you\\\\\\'re probably only really using half those buttons, and there\\\\\\'s prolly a few more that\\\\\\'s barely marginally useful.

And then there\\\\\\'s existing pvp abilities which are nearly clones of pve abilities.

So considering all of that, abilities trim was definitely needed to reduce bloat in pvp.

Moreover, the trim in abilities allows each jobs defining characteristic to really show. This means that any strengths or weaknesses will be extremely easy to spot. And since there are less abilities to deal with, much easier to balance.

Moreover, the power to choose 2 active abilities and 3 traits allow for added depth and customization for play. Say a warriors base pvp kit lacks defense abilities or movement abilities, the warrior can pick the appropriate additional abilities and traits to shore up his shortcomings. Or, he could take those abilitied that better synergies with his strengths and make him even better at what he does.
This also gives the devs another means of balancing classes. Running with my example, disparities or gaps betwern say a warrior and a paladin in pvp in terms of group utility can be closed via adjustments to these additional abilities and traits.

honestly don\\\\\\\\\\'t get all the salt on these forums sometimes. Try seeing things from a broader point of view folks... not just from the lens of your tiny, narrow experiences.

Try seeing things from the devs perspective. And the perspective of other players. And the perspective of what pvp will be like 2 or 3 years from now if something isn\\\\\\\\\\'t done now to streamline the current mess.

Be reasonable.

Be civil.

The changes look promising. Let\\\\\\\\\\'s reserve judgment for when we have more details.

I think thsee changes will be nice for the whole community, everyone will restart from 0 and hopefully we will get faster Q times :D

Lookin forward for the expansion

There's two main reactions about this change.

1) It's absolutely horrible and takes away what differentiates "Brilliant" players from "Good" players. Through careful OGCD/GCD usage and some teamwork going on with a bit of common sense, you can swing a match in your favour. Now they're taking away so much, it'll be a miracle if things actually die before culling 5 (purely dependent on the healer PvP actions) and if the fights are even half as entertaining/engaging (spoiler: they wont be). Spamming 1111/222 until you get to press an extra button every 15 seconds isn't engaging at all. It feels like it's catered to the "casual" players that are stuck in Bronze/Silver and can't perform a full rotation correctly.

This sentiment is shared with the actual core PvP playerbase in this game who have played their fair share of matches and have a good understanding of how to win.

2) It's great because now I can finally be great at PvP and everything will finally work out for me! It's this whole games' combat system in PvP that was holding me back the entire time, it wasn't my fault at all! Now that they're got rid of the secret sauce only the few hundred core PvP players were using, we'll all be able do the same thing and I'll get my deserved spot in the rankings! Amazing!

This sentiment is mostly shared with the players who aren't actually at a "True Diamond" skill level. 90% of these players are probably stuck somewhere between Bronze - Gold.

The reason I say "True Diamond" is because anybody can just easily get Diamond now. The highest rank in the game isn't an achievement anymore if someone with a 40% win rate can get it.

Final Note

This all being said, reducing bloat is a good thing but not at the expense of pruning your game mode until it's as brainless as spamming a handful of buttons. I would say at least add a few extra PvP abilities in.

Looking at the DRG example they used in the live letter, I can tell you 100% it's impossible for it to even come close to solo-ing a half decent healer now. Removing such damage potential from a Job makes it stale and boring. For those that doubt me, I know you'll agree the day you're playing and your co-dps is spamming 1 combo all game on the wrong targets. You won't be able to kill a single thing.

If anything, they need to be more transparent with this and show us all the abilities/actions for each job in PvP, especially healer actions. We'll be able to know seeing the potencies/actions what changes need to be made.

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Originally Posted by itsoni

Looking at the DRG example they used in the live letter, I can tell you 100% it's impossible for it to even come close to solo-ing a half decent healer now. Removing such damage potential from a Job makes it stale and boring. For those that doubt me, I know you'll agree the day you're playing and your co-dps is spamming 1 combo all game on the wrong targets. You won't be able to kill a single thing.

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can only kill with limit break!.. oh wait.. melee won't have stun to do accurate lb anymore..

Well.. As I'm 99,99% sure I can't enjoy new PvP at all. I don't like casual stuff. I made a suggestion for PvE changes to make PvP players interested other stuff and keep playing FFXIV.

Go check it out :cool: :D: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...59#post4153759

As myself. I've been playing PvP in dozens of different games over a decade and even been paid to go play some game and balance PvP. I talk as experienced PvP Player and these changes are not made for MMORPG. If FFXIV tries to create in-game minigame DotA, they should create it very well and invest huge money to make it work.

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Originally Posted by abbas

can only kill with limit break!.. oh wait.. melee won't have stun to do accurate lb anymore..

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They can always add to The Feast ice spawns to fix that problem. 1 small ice worth 50 points and big ice is 75 points so you don't need to fight actual people to win.

I m gonna play it, no matter what. I m very curious how good/bad PvP will be with Stormblood >: D

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Originally Posted by abbas

can only kill with limit break!.. oh wait.. melee won't have stun to do accurate lb anymore..

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Thank god.

Also... what's the point of PvP rank now, if everyone will have the same number of points and traits. Yep, fresh lv30 and 3 year veteran pvper should have the same 'progression' and same stats, seems fair.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Also... what's the point of PvP rank now, if everyone will have the same number of points and traits. Yep, fresh lv30 and 3 year veteran pvper should have the same 'progression' and same stats, seems fair.

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PVP is about personal skill, not about grinding ranks and gear.

With this change everybody will be equal, and your personal skill is what will determine a win or a loss.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

PVP is about personal skill, not about grinding ranks and gear.

With this change everybody will be equal, and your personal skill is what will determine a win or a loss.

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OR quality of a healer I'll get.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

OR quality of a healer I'll get.

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Well yeah it all depends if the healer is good, if DPS knows when to burst or CC and don't OOS from their own healer etc etc... There's a lot of stuff that will still go on, except DPS rotation!

[QUOTE=Mefa;4153785]Well.. As I'm 99,99% sure I can't enjoy new PvP at all. I don't like casual stuff. I made a suggestion for PvE changes to make PvP players interested other stuff and keep playing .[,/QUOTE]

But this PvP is already casual. In the other hand it seems the new PvP is gonna be more competitive than what we've got right now.

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Originally Posted by abbas

can only kill with limit break!.. oh wait.. melee won't have stun to do accurate lb anymore..

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You do know with the new system they can easily adjust damage and healing. Not to mention we don't know what actual skills healers have. They said games are faster. I expect that healers are seriously clipped from what they are now. Controlled gear, controlled skills, and controlled pvp abilities. Will this be fun is unknown. But I wouldn't be surprised if you almost never see culling time. Or that it is balanced that it is impossible to keep one person up when focused with one culling.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

I expect that healers are seriously clipped from what they are now.

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I doubt that. I very much doubt that in fact - Not only are healers the least affected by skill pruning, SE also received a lot of feedback of healing being "too hard" in PvP. Moreover, CC seems to be less prevalent with stormblood. I wouldn't be surprised if kills against competent healers end up completely impossible unless coordinating two LBs with the tanks CC.

It's the same dev team that asks us to pull carefully in Xelphatol because the dungeon is dangerous. The same dev team that did not foresee Holy being used to AoE in dungeons. The same dev team that did not foresee nor understand the DPS meta resulting from their tank/healer tuning. The same dev team that just yesterday admitted on Stream that they did not take party DPS contribution into account so far when balancing jobs. How much faith can you have?

I wholly expect them to screw it up big time.

Slept on it, gonna give it a try at least. The fact they've paid any attention to PvP at all means I can at least pay the respect of giving them a chance.

Lack of skills make it more like MOBA, instead of MMORPG PvP. Tell me how PLD will do next season for example? Probably all his skills he would need are away, like Cover. This makes it so unbalanced for sure. There will be few ''must picks to win'' instead of everything being viable. What I've seen so far in this few months PvP seems pretty balanced. There are lot of counterplay, outplay, burst, kite and so on. In new system there won't be as much skill required to play and most important: there are not many things to learn to get better when possibilities are limited. In this game you can get character from lvl1 -> lvl60 in one day. I don't see anything ''difficult to get in.''

As I said. Having too less skills in PvP is just bad. Makes PvP boring af. Mortal Kombat II from 90's has more strategy and options than PvP with that low amount of skills.

I know this PvP is kinda casual compared to many other hardcore PvP games like Helbreath.

I'm fine with the other changes, gear normalization is an especially welcomed one. But I'm concerned about the 9 buttons thing. Yes previously there were a lot of skills and yes I do think ab it of pruning was needed, but this feels like a teensy bit too much. Having only one hotbar worth of skills, besides removing a lot of the complexity from high level play, I wonder how they will also keep class identities proper especially between the healers and tanks. As an Astrologian, I am also very concerned about how this restriction will be affected due to cards, as Astrologian has four skills dedicated to their cards (Royal Road/Redraw/Draw/Spread). This means that AST is probably going to be stuck with maybe only Draw, maybe Redraw, which will kinda make it slightly less fun. Will have to see when it comes out, hopefully their PvP team has been improved to be more than just one intern that they can properly balance these low amount of skills and make the classes fun and engaging still. Yoshi looked so bored mashing 1 lol.

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Originally Posted by Korihu

Isnip

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I looked at it again, it's 9 pvp actions, then your 6 combo actions, then 2 pvp abilities.

So now the most aids thing to me is having to choose one pvp action because purify is basically mandatory lol.

I also gave the JP forums a read, although there isn't much discussion. Seems for the most part they're happy with the direction and their feedback is pretty much building on the base of pvp ie introducing duelling, shop items for cosmetic pvp stuff etc.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

I looked at it again, it's 9 pvp actions, then your 6 combo actions, then 2 pvp abilities.

So now the most aids thing to me is having to choose one pvp action because purify is basically mandatory lol

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I thought it was 9 actions, 2 selectable PvP abilities and then limit break?

Either way only being able to select two will be rough. Especially if we cannot choose one pre-match, if Focalisation is still an option then not being able to select/deselect it if the enemy team has SMN/BLM/RDM is gonna suck a little.

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Originally Posted by Korihu

I thought it was 9 actions, 2 selectable PvP abilities and then limit break?

Either way only being able to select two will be rough. Especially if we cannot choose one pre-match, if Focalisation is still an option then not being able to select/deselect it if the enemy team has SMN/BLM/RDM is gonna suck a little.

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I thought that too, till I saw this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...VkQ/edit#gid=0

Seems you have your combo abilities, then your cds. Your combo abilities being obviously condensed into 2 buttons.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

I looked at it again, it's 9 pvp actions, then your 6 combo actions, then 2 pvp abilities.

So now the most aids thing to me is having to choose one pvp action because purify is basically mandatory lol.

I also gave the JP forums a read, although there isn't much discussion. Seems for the most part they're happy with the direction and their feedback is pretty much building on the base of pvp ie introducing duelling, shop items for cosmetic pvp stuff etc.

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Why is Purify mandatory? They changed it, it only removes CC effects now, not debuffs or DoT's. It's not even required for melee in the current state. The only thing I ever use purify on as monk is full swing, which it will no longer remove.

You're all looking at PvP as it is now, but it's going to change completely. It's impossible to say it won't work because every element of PvP is in flux.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...VkQ/edit#gid=0

Purify 45s SELF ONLY: Remove stuns, silences, sleeps, binds, heavies, slows, silences

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Originally Posted by Koltik

snip[/url]

Purify 45s SELF ONLY: Remove stuns, silences, sleeps, binds, heavies, slows, silences

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Only tanks will have stuns as it appears atm, however you can still be sleeped on your burst or rooted out of LoS.

I mean I know where you're going with this, I purify more debuffs on myself than actual CC, but you can literally lose games if you're sleeped and can't peel whilst your healer is being bursted in a stun. That's how I'm seeing it. It is the only CC breaker you will have outside of healer dispel, and if quick games are going to be the thing, there's no guarantee on there being enough open gcds to dispel.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Only tanks will have stuns as it appears atm, however you can still be sleeped on your burst or rooted out of LoS.

I mean I know where you're going with this, I purify more debuffs on myself than actual CC, but you can literally lose games if you're sleeped and can't peel whilst your healer is being bursted in a stun. That's how I'm seeing it. It is the only CC breaker you will have outside of healer dispel, and if quick games are going to be the thing, there's no guarantee on there being enough open gcds to dispel.

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You'll either choose the new Fetter, or Purify. Either can work, you don't need both, and I'd personally say that Fetter would be the better option depending on how fast you can get your burst out. This way you can guarantee LB's. The other skill will probably be the reduced damage PvP action or sprint.

I'm hopeful PvP will be soo much better in SB. Less abilities but with greater impact means its all about skillful plays not trying to figure out how to put all 7 of my PvP abilities on the same bar as my 20 or so PvE abilities half of which are pointless for PvP becausewhyintheworldwouldyouuseyourbackcomboinpvpitisallaboutburstdamagehowdareyouusetheabilitiesgiventoyouandevenmoresohowdareyounotknowyouaredoingeverythingwrong.

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Originally Posted by Tobalito

I'm hopeful PvP will be soo much better in SB. Less abilities but with greater impact means its all about skillful plays not trying to figure out how to put all 7 of my PvP abilities on the same bar as my 20 or so PvE abilities half of which are pointless for PvP becausewhyintheworldwouldyouuseyourbackcomboinpvpitisallaboutburstdamagehowdareyouusetheabilitiesgiventoyouandevenmoresohowdareyounotknowyouaredoingeverythingwrong.

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>Not using different bar sets for pvp and pve.

So basically SE is making a new game and permanently killing another. Nintendo doesn't support SMB for the NES anymore, but I'm at least able to play it...

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...VkQ/edit#gid=0

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Looks like 1 combo bursts. The potency is crazy. RIP skill. Can't we just get a "kill" button? Or a "win" button?
EDIT: or is the potency the actual damage? o_O

The way they are going makes it seem like participating in PvP won't necessarily make you a better FFXIV player, because it's a DIFFERENT GAME!

Or perhaps you could look at like they are adding X number of new classes/jobs??

All this is further proof that SE did not have PvP in mind -at all- while designing the battle system. I would naturally assume they would balance the system around PvP (treat enemies as dumbed down, actual players), not the other way. Reaction, strategy and reflexes takes a backseat. Learning patterns is pretty much all you need to do. I guess that is how you hypnotize the masses (...ehm... including me lol).


I agree the battle system needs a revamp, but not PvP exclusively. Hope it doesn't get too different. I'll give it a shot, but I'm afraid I wont be very happy.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

>Not using different bar sets for pvp and pve.

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Nope, Ill my bars are being used up already as is so I will not be pushing that aside to make PvP only bars. even so, that doesnt change my statement.

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Originally Posted by Sorazure

Nice changes. Now hopefully the cringe elitists can stop playing so we can at least get a somewhat decent community built.

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This, will be very happy to see a fresh start without the poison.

After the instinctive disappointment of the first day, I like a rough 50% of those changes, but they are huge and in my opinion they will make skill floor higer (very good for helping new players to join and I'm happy about it), but even skill ceiling lower and I don't know how people could say that this won't happen motivating it with "You will have to have more spatial awareness/coordination.." because a lot of good players already does it, with all those 40 abilities, making even some niche ability woth.

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Originally Posted by Blazinhart

Now I'm really looking forward for PvP. Sorry hardcores, but PvP won't die, but flourish now.

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I'm a player that since Wolves Den release spent A LOT of time on pvp, like a lot of other players here and we was ALWAYS interested in pvp changes.
Don't get my answer as a salty one, because, trust me this is not my aim at all, but..

Probably a lot of skilled pvper will still play, and they will still kill over and over new players, how long do you think that those players will leave the new pvp again?
and then, when the new veteran population will remain alone again, if they don't even like so much those semplifications, how long will this pvp survive?

This is my biggest concern as someone who spent the last 2 patch doing pvp only.
(And the fact that in FL only 12 skills will be VERY boring for a long match, try to figure to kill a big ice in that way)

I... have mixed feelings about the changes.

On one hand, I'm so glad they simplified traits by doing away with that stupid action point nonsense to where everyone gets to choose what they want depending on their playstyle.

On the other hand, I think the "one button combo" is a bit TOO hand-holdyish for newcomers. I mean, come on SE, we are not THAT bad. :)

Then again, perhaps we'll get new maps that emphasize strategy and tactics over who can mash buttons the fastest.

We'll see.

Well im not very happy with those changes too but we didnt have a chance to test it out yet. Maybe it will be good, maybe it will be the total annihilation of PvP. We can only Tell with the Release of Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

(And the fact that in FL only 12 skills will be VERY boring for a long match, try to figure to kill a big ice in that way)

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The good news is that since all PvP will be synced, in theory we should be able to run Secure again.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

The good news is that since all PvP will be synced, in theory we should be able to run Secure again.

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I loved 72 man secure, but.... the 24 man one is still a crap due to that giant map.
I'll surely try this pvp, but right now my hope is that they still take in consideration to do some major fix even to this new pvp, and dont' let this go on this way, just adjusting 200 damage potency on a random SMN skill and hoping that this will fix all the problem.

Also I'm worried about the 2 skill that you have to pick up, I think 3 scenario will open here:
1) Anyone will pick the skill that better reflect his playstyle and wow!, all is perfectly balanced
2) Basically any job will have his BiS skills that will probably make you reach higher skillceilings
3) Your decision is bound on the opponent one, for example, they have sprint? you need it to...
And if you do not foresee correctly which one should you pick, you are screwed

But this thought is very reliant on how balanced they will be (and hopefully now it's easier to balance things), so I'll wait and see.

A last thing...
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psgfaaqi5w.jpg
Am I the only caster who thought "Finally my healer won't think Wolve's Heart all the game"?
And then see that we only have 11 skills killed me deep inside XD

Bold changes for sure but I have faith they will deliver a high quality gaming experience and look forward to the new pvp

I can't wait for the changes to PVP, this is why they promised PVP was going to be when they first announced it in a 2.xx live letter. I was severely disappointed to see that it was exactly like WoW PVP after everything they were saying what it was going to be. Glad they went back to their original idea, with the release of level restrictions as well this will be a fantastic change :).