Cleric Stance is dead!

One thing to note, however, is that healer dps is basically taking a 10% overall hit. The current Cleric Stance doesn't just swap your stats, it also boosts damage by 10%. While I don't recall if they stated the exact damage boost of the new Cleric Stance in 4.0, We'll basically be doing 10% less damage in 4.0 than we are doing right now when not using the new 4.0 Cleric Stance cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

One thing to note, however, is that healer dps is basically taking a 10% overall hit. The current Cleric Stance doesn't just swap your stats, it also boosts damage by 10%. While I don't recall if they stated the exact damage boost of the new Cleric Stance in 4.0, We'll basically be doing 10% less damage in 4.0 than we are doing right now when not using the new 4.0 Cleric Stance cooldown.

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Overall DPS potential might still stay around the same, though. Depends if they change spell potencies.

I can't believe they actually went with scaling healer DPS based on MND and are removing accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

One thing to note, however, is that healer dps is basically taking a 10% overall hit. The current Cleric Stance doesn't just swap your stats, it also boosts damage by 10%. While I don't recall if they stated the exact damage boost of the new Cleric Stance in 4.0, We'll basically be doing 10% less damage in 4.0 than we are doing right now when not using the new 4.0 Cleric Stance cooldown.

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Depends on how long the new Cleric's Stance is up and how long the CD is, and also how high the buff to dps is. I missed the first ~40 minutes of the stream, so I didn't see if they mentioned that, but from what I heared, they didn't, so I'll just wait and see here. Helps that I'm not really that invested into healer dps I guess. I do dps, but I don't really care for that 10% if I'm honest, especially since it will likely be less severe.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

And nothing of value was lost in fact healers gained some more value. I might actually play healer classes more now.

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Same. Now I'll start to play my healer classes again too, along with Bard. All in all..seems like really good changes :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Overall DPS potential might still stay around the same, though. Depends if they change spell potencies.

I can't believe they actually went with scaling healer DPS based on MND and are removing accuracy.

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I think these changes are a good thing, and I hate the healer DPS meta. Looking at it from a broader perspective, I think it opens more doorways for the developers to adjust outgoing mob damage and overall healing, as weird as that sounds. Imagine if healing requirements for Savage content were upped significantly but Cleric Stance and accuracy were kept the same. You'd have acc-built relics that (while small) are still a healing nerf, and wipes from Cleric Stance maladjustments or whatever. This new change, while so far looking like it's going to further push the idea that healers are DPS hybrids in this game, still gives the developers more wiggle room IMO to change things on the healing end without worrying as MUCH about edging players out of the healing role with a higher skill floor.

If that makes sense. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but for now I don't actually think taking away Cleric is a bad thing. It was a weird clunky ability that forced healers to essentially turn off one portion of their kit in order to use their other portion. I can only surmise that taking that away will maybe make it easier to balance content around "how much healing vs how much DPS", because it'll be easier to swap seamlessly between the two.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Same. Now I'll start to play my healer classes again too, along with Bard. All in all..seems like really good changes :)

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I disagree. The stance dancing was the only interesting aspect to healer dps. This is going to make it so most healing is going to put me to sleep. Spamming Stone 3 and applying 2 dots is hardly compelling gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I'm all for rectifying that, tho.

But healers might no longer be taken into content as a result, considering how low it's tuned on healing.

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They wouldn't be. Of the four recent dungeons, I think only Balesar's Wall might have too much aoe damaging from the second boss to push through without a healer. Xelphatol and Gubal were a joke at release and Solm Al just never does enough damage. Warrior's self healing is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I disagree. The stance dancing was the only interesting aspect to healer dps. This is going to make it so most healing is going to put me to sleep. Spamming Stone 3 and applying 2 dots is hardly compelling gameplay.

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Aside keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning?
If keeping tabs on all that doesn't give you the necessary compelling gameplay in the first place, I'd recommend playing a more action oriented mmo.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Aside keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning?
If keeping tabs on all that doesn't give you the necessary compelling gameplay in the first place, I'd recommend playing a more action oriented mmo.

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You must realize that this isn't unique to a healer, all jobs need to do this too, aside from their primary role as tank or dps.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

You must realize that this isn't unique to a healer, all jobs need to do this too, aside from their primary role as tank or dps.

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Well my experience (DF/PF, not talking about statics) is more like:

1. Healers: keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning

2. Tanks: keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning

3. DPS: keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning

I'm exaggerating but still ... how many times I got asked from a DPS: "How did I die?" ... all I can think is: "Oh honey, if you don't know, maybe pay attention!"

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

You must realize that this isn't unique to a healer, all jobs need to do this too, aside from their primary role as tank or dps.

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For the AST, for example, you also need to draw those cards and debate whenever you want to play/burn/redraw/store them for their maximum effect, choosing for either a quick play or going for the big Arrow/Balance-Time Dilation-Celestial Opposition combo. And I think that's always a interesting mechanic for me to play with whenever I feel for going out as a healer.

DPS classes are more simpler than that : You keep eyes on your positioning, your combos and on your job specific mechanics.
Emnity and health aren't a issue if you have players on those jobs that are worth their salt, and you keep the points above in mind.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

DPS classes are more simpler than that : You keep eyes on your positioning, your combos and on your job specific mechanics.
Emnity and health aren't a issue if you have players on those jobs that are worth their salt, and you keep the points above in mind.

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I disagree, healers and tanks aren't complicated compared to a DPS to maximize their DPS, good DPS are much harder to play than a tank or a healer. They have to time their buffs, position ahead of time, have 100% uptime while doing mechanics, tanks and healers can get away with it because of their limited combos as for tanks, one is for threat, ones for DPS, no positionals no nothing, same as healers just DoT and hit your nuke. Maximizing and being optimal on a DPS takes time and effort and can really change the dynamic of a group.

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Originally Posted by Tremara

Well my experience (DF/PF, not talking about statics) is more like:

1. Healers: keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning

2. Tanks: keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning

3. DPS: keeping eyes on the enemy, monitoring player health, your health and your positioning

I'm exaggerating but still ... how many times I got asked from a DPS: "How did I die?" ... all I can think is: "Oh honey, if you don't know, maybe pay attention!"

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Yeah, this is my experience for DF/PF groups as well but this is just you dealing with bad players. I've seen plenty of bad healers in DF/PF that equal the amount of other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

For the AST, for example, you also need to draw those cards and debate whenever you want to play/burn/redraw/store them for their maximum effect, choosing for either a quick play or going for the big Arrow/Balance-Time Dilation-Celestial Opposition combo. And I think that's always a interesting mechanic for me to play with whenever I feel for going out as a healer.

DPS classes are more simpler than that : You keep eyes on your positioning, your combos and on your job specific mechanics.
Emnity and health aren't a issue if you have players on those jobs that are worth their salt, and you keep the points above in mind.

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So you are talking about more of try-harder group compared to Tremara above (who was talking about DF/PF groups). In that case, yes, even with astro card mechanics, I agree with the poster you quoted that it still doesn't make the job exciting when one doesn't use all the skills at their disposal. I can give a ton of examples on how other jobs must make decisions, when to blow a cooldown, when to save a gap closer, when to use CDs, when to burn off the remainder of timed buff, etc etc. No matter how you skin it, there really isn't a "this is the most complicated role" type out there.

When I see people make these types of comments in game, I suggest that person try to maximize their potential for one of each archetype and push to at least 95% and see how much their opinions change afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I disagree, healers and tanks aren't complicated compared to a DPS to maximize their DPS, good DPS are much harder to play than a tank or a healer. They have to time their buffs, position ahead of time, have 100% uptime while doing mechanics, tanks and healers can get away with it because of their limited combos as for tanks, one is for threat, ones for DPS, no positionals no nothing, same as healers just DoT and hit your nuke. Maximizing and being optimal on a DPS takes time and effort and can really change the dynamic of a group.

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Of course I know that DPS Jobs got a load of stuff on their plate as well (I still play a semi-broken, 180ms+ ping post-server move BRD), but they still aren't outshining what healers need to perform when the heat is on in fights, while keeping their own specific mechanics still running.

So when they say something like that they don't feel challenged enough with even that, then probably this isn't the game they are looking for. :/

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Originally Posted by Arrius

So when they say something like that they don't feel challenged enough with even that, then probably this isn't the game they are looking for. :/

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That was the whole point of Cleric Stance it was that fine line when to DPS and when to heal that was the challenge and reward for good healers. Healers still need to contribute to DPSing as it is built into the game, even with Cleric being gone as a stance it exists as a buff, meaning that they have to carefully use that in conjunction with healing to maximize their role. Just because the ability is gone doesn't mean healers can't be lazy and sit there doing nothing, they should challenge themselves in content that requires everything from healers this includes Savage/EX Primals/Experts.

The problem really boils down to do they want to even push themselves? Because as it stands you can literally DPS as a healer with a fairy or regen and never leave Cleric Stance, most of the community doesn't want to do anything extra or take criticism because it's "their" time and "their" sub when in actuality it's a group effort in DF.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I disagree. The stance dancing was the only interesting aspect to healer dps. This is going to make it so most healing is going to put me to sleep. Spamming Stone 3 and applying 2 dots is hardly compelling gameplay.

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I'd say try out Scholar since with the Cleric Stance and MND revamps you could actually apply your dots and spam Broil, avoid the glowing orange danger zones and control Eos. White Mage never really had anything besides a really cute artifact armor.

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Originally Posted by Awful

That was the whole point of Cleric Stance it was that fine line when to DPS and when to heal that was the challenge and reward for good healers. Healers still need to contribute to DPSing as it is built into the game, even with Cleric being gone as a stance it exists as a buff, meaning that they have to carefully use that in conjunction with healing to maximize their role. Just because the ability is gone doesn't mean healers can't be lazy and sit there doing nothing, they should challenge themselves in content that requires everything from healers this includes Savage/EX Primals/Experts.


The problem really boils down to do they want to even push themselves? Because as it stands you can literally DPS as a healer with a fairy or regen and never leave Cleric Stance, most of the community doesn't want to do anything extra or take criticism because it's "their" time and "their" sub when in actuality it's a group effort in DF.

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It is the issue that the community is ready to throw all healers under the bus under the aspect that their damage contribution is mandatory now since the changes on their MIND stat have been announced.
They are forcing a mindset on other players and threaten them with vote dismiss if they don't comply and play the victims in the group, "being taken hostage by a bad healer" were the words I saw somewhere else.

Look, I am fine when healers do either. When they do damage and keep the party topped off and happy - All good, high five from me. If they don't, though I might ask them why, I put the topic to rest.
Yet this witch hunt has to stop. Now. Don't force a playstyle on them when they don't want to.

I believe prior to 3.2, tanks had that issue where the STR stat and warriors were the meta, because damage > all, and it got 'resolved' in a way that made it clear how it should work.
Don't make SE repeat itself on this again.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Yet this witch hunt has to stop. Now. Don't force a playstyle on them when they don't want to.

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People can play however they want - that includes me - and I do not want people in my party doing nothing. Ergo, they are gonna get the boot. If they want to do nothing, they need to find a party that lets them do nothing because its not my party.

This is legit the only game where I've seen healers be this lazy. I too, used to play tons of healer in TERA (back in Manaya/Kelsaik/Wonderholme days), and getting healers to DPS was never a problem despite the fact healer DPS in TERA is significantly less than in this game. Same with League - playing a healer (Soraka, Nami, Sona) that only heals gets you reported faster than you can say "GG".

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Same with League - playing a healer (Soraka, Nami, Sona) that only heals gets you reported faster than you can say "GG".

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This is an odd comparison, since those are all Supports, not Healers.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

People can play however they want - that includes me - and I do not want people in my party doing nothing. Ergo, they are gonna get the boot. If they want to do nothing, they need to find a party that lets them do nothing because its not my party.

This is legit the only game where I've seen healers be this lazy. I too, used to play tons of healer in TERA (back in Manaya/Kelsaik/Wonderholme days), and getting healers to DPS was never a problem despite the fact healer DPS in TERA is significantly less than in this game. Same with League - playing a healer (Soraka, Nami, Sona) that only heals gets you reported faster than you can say "GG".

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Healer DPS in TERA was always mandatory, as they debuff enemy defenses with specific glyphed spells and have to dispell certain shields on bosses, else they gain a massive defense or damage buff.
As for other healers, older games were more destinct in their holy trinity - As you can see here, being more in a stat buff/healing role with mild crowd control and maybe a dot or two.

I played league for a good while, though I distanced myself from mobas these days due to their toxicity and negative attitude, occasionally playing as support in Overwatch instead.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Healer DPS in TERA was always mandatory, as they debuff enemy defenses with specific glyphed spells and have to dispell certain shields on bosses, else they gain a massive defense or damage buff.
As for other healers, older games were more destinct in their holy trinity - As you can see here, being more in a stat buff/healing role with mild crowd control and maybe a dot or two.

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I'd argue that in TERA it's less that "DPS is mandatory" and more that "debuffing the mob is mandatory, as is buffing your group with Energy Stars". Those moves HAPPEN to do damage, but I wouldn't say that's why healers are required to "DPS" in that game. Attach valuable support components to SCH's Broil or WHM's Aero III and you'd see the same result here.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'd argue that in TERA it's less that "DPS is mandatory" and more that "debuffing the mob is mandatory, as is buffing your group with Energy Stars". Those moves HAPPEN to do damage, but I wouldn't say that's why healers are required to "DPS" in that game. Attach valuable support components to SCH's Broil or WHM's Aero III and you'd see the same result here.

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Actually, that'd be a fairly interesting idea, if it could be balanced properly.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'd argue that in TERA it's less that "DPS is mandatory" and more that "debuffing the mob is mandatory, as is buffing your group with Energy Stars". Those moves HAPPEN to do damage, but I wouldn't say that's why healers are required to "DPS" in that game. Attach valuable support components to SCH's Broil or WHM's Aero III and you'd see the same result here.

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It depends on the healer here. Priests got it easy and are hard carries with their heals, while Mystics are force multipliers and got a bunch of thralls to do damage (If they don't get one-shot by a boss swipe. Welp.).

But yeah, giving certain spells a meaningful debuff on the enemy might help incentivize the healers to at least try to use them.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Actually, that'd be a fairly interesting idea, if it could be balanced properly.

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To me, I dislike healer DPS in FFXIV because it's damage just for the sake of damage, for the most part. It's damage because there's a bajillion times where your team doesn't require anything else BUT more damage, and I despise that immensely. I play a healer to support my team (in b4 I get the trite "killing stuff faster IS supporting your team"; take your semantics elsewhere), and I wouldn't really be bothered if any sort of debuff or support component dealt damage on its own. Character identity is a big deal to me and I don't identify with the spell-slinging battle cleric, I've always identified more with the pure white robes and sparkles gentle pacifist. It's why I originally hoped that AST wouldn't just have copy-pasted DPS abilities from other healers (and wew lads, it totally did), and that instead buffing your group and possibly debuffing the enemies would be how it contributed to the party damage role. A pain to balance, maybe, but I think the devs could have shut down the stupid "should healers DPS" argument once and for all had they simply tried to make playstyles that suited both philosophies.

I get that there's a whole mixed bag of why group buffs don't always equate numerically to individual healer DPS, and lazy players who don't want to do ANYTHING but push the occasional Cure and pick their butts would still exist, but right now these differing playstyles are probably the most divisive issue in the game ATM and so far just leaving it to the players to sort it all out isn't getting SE anywhere. It'd be nice if these issues are eventually looked at and a compromise reached.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

It depends on the healer here. Priests got it easy and are hard carries with their heals, while Mystics are force multipliers and got a bunch of thralls to do damage (If they don't get one-shot by a boss swipe. Welp.).

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Apropos of nothing, but Bluehole's shit treatment of Mystics was one of the biggest reasons why I quit that game. Awesome class, high skill floor, amazing potential, but they completely ruined it with a ton of hard nerfs and overreaching buffs to Priests.

Ding Dong the witch is dead!!! I AM BEYOND THRILLED for the change! I was already a dpsing healer and this is the best QoL change for me!! I don't have to be nervous about cleric stancing in a shitty group anymore!!!

Extremely happy with the change to it (and the removal of accuracy) i think there's still a nice element of risk with CS, if you use it you'd be silly to waste it on healing (provided it only buff offensive magic potency) so you'll still need to be careful but at least you won't make a mistakes of staying in it and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Character identity is a big deal to me and I don't identify with the spell-slinging battle cleric, I've always identified more with the pure white robes and sparkles gentle pacifist.

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I wouldn't associate "gentle pacifist" with the WoL. Because of all the MSQ leading up into Stormblood, they are forced to kill a lot of living beings in order to defend themselves. And not even just in self-defense, but also to sustain themselves. At the beginning of the game, in order to prove their worth as an adventurer to their starting city-state, they are tasked with ye olde MMO tradition quest of "kill 10 of these 3 weak creatures". All healer questlines emphasize the need to defend yourself. Remember Sylphie from the CNJ story? "I'm good at healing! You can't make me do those other things!"

tl;dr - The WoL cannot be considered a gentle pacifist by the events of Stormblood. I see this as a weak excuse to avoid damage dealing as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

No excuse to not DPS as a healer expect a kick now if you want to stand around and do nothing

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horrible attitude typical loltank

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Expecting players to actively contribute is a bad attitude?

So your okay with a dragoon only using their basic combo for an entire run?

You should be blacklisted with an attitude like that

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Context and compromise is everything here.

I'm all for healer DPS myself, but I wouldn't force my full gas roulette play style on someone who might lack the experience or dexterity to pull it off comfortably and consistently. It stops being worthwhile if you start causing more issues than you solve with it =(

welp...no more excuses for us not to DPS, I suppose.

Kinda sad. Having a mere +5% during 15 sec is a huge loss. Used to be +10% everytime. Unless they buff our skills potency to compensate, healers just got a decent dps loss.

They've literally made us stronger. I'm definitely not gonna complain about this.

I think this can only be a good thing. The removal of Acc frees slots for other stats and the change to MND removes the need for CS at all. This move has opened the door to a segment of the player base that didn't want to deal with stance dancing as a healer and removed a valid reason for not wanting to stance dance (fear of letting party members die). Playing a healer is more accessible than ever for the majority of the player base, I don't see how thats bad.

Changing CS to a buff gives the people dedicated to maximizing their DPS a means of doing so and keeps room for more in depth play.

THANK GOD! I finally don't have to worry about stance dancing and the wrong times. Now I may sprinkle dps freely <3

Cleric stance is being removed? Oh joy! Even more of an excuse to let my party wipe to unavoidable damage! <3 Time to unslot all healer spells and go mad with the deeps~ Might as well embrace the dps meta.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Cleric stance is being removed? Oh joy! Even more of an excuse to let my party wipe to unavoidable damage! <3 Time to unslot all healer spells and go mad with the deeps~ Might as well embrace the dps meta.

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So an option that gives you more leeway in case things go wrong while DPSing is a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

So an option that gives you more leeway in case things go wrong while DPSing is a bad thing?

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Eh. I don't really care either way. I'll still prioritize dpsing over everything else. Tanks and dps have a self heal, they can do just fine with that~ If people want to enforce Battle Mercy I see no qualms giving them what they want.

Besides, the game gives you plenty of potions anyway. :3 I have no problem spamming stone 3 and going full on Battle Mercy.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

So an option that gives you more leeway in case things go wrong while DPSing is a bad thing?

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Some people like being a 2nd rate DPS with a lot of heals.

At a mere 5% damage increase, it may well be optional for anything short of Gordius-esque progression, so long as the other X-roles are half-way decent.

We're looking at a solid 9% dps decrease otherwise, though, for better or worse. I still don't think that's going to make healer DPS any less valuable, and may well bring higher overall DPS output out of our more hesitant healers, but it'll be noticeable to say the least.

KEK

Lots of lazies will be kicked out of parties if they don't shape up and contribute by using all their available skills.