seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jpec07

Yes, because you are judging them without any information on their circumstance. That's kind of a jerk move.

there is never a valid excuse for being a jerk.[/b]

---

Where did I say anything about being a jerk? Was I a jerk to you when you caused that weeping city wipe? No, this is about being perfectly justified for being annoyed, and pointing out someone's faults. It's inexcusable with how many resources there are. If anything, coming in without any effort to learn an instance expecting to be carried is a jerk move.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

It's inexcusable with how many resources there are. If anything, coming in without any effort to learn an instance expecting to be carried is a jerk move.

---

The entire thing their arguing is that you don't know what someone has or hasn't done, which includes looking over resources and trying to learn things before hand. There's a line between watching a video and actual practical experience that no amount of watching a video is going to help a majority of people. There are some that can pick it up fast and perform great right away, but that's not a majority of any large player base.

While I don't like working with new people either, your demand for them to learn things and perform is pretty unreasonable. If everyone could look anything up, read it, and apply it right away we'd have a ton more doctors, engineers, ect. But oh wait...people normally learn (use resources at their disposal) and then take time to actually put it into practice, which takes time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonseth07

All my time is spent practicing and improving more and more. How long can I hold FoF on the GCD before the animation clips Goring Blade?.

---

And there are resources out there, even in this own forum, that goes over this. This also changes as more stats are added into the game over time and values change. If you're still at Sohm Al normal, (Assuming this since you didn't say Hard), you don't even have all of your gear or skills to get current results. --- Even worse is that attack rotations and cool downs changes fight to fight. It's cool if you want to dive deep into old content that is 2 years old or content that is about to be useless in a month and 15 days, but I pray you're not holding everyone to that standard as thats highly unresonable.

Also another important skill of a tank is the ability to gauge the situation their in on the fly due to consistent changes. You don't know who you're getting in your party, nor their skill level. No amount of training on a dummy after you've learned your rotations is going to help you keep hate, because you've got no one to try to keep hate off of.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having an unverifiable standard so long as you aren't imposing it on other people.
If someone were like
"Kaeoni what is it I should do if i want to get into FFXIV"

Id say Pick a class you think looks cool, do all the Novice training, keep up with your class quests and MSQ, read the ability tooltips, and don't be ascurred to ask questions. I'm not saying this is mandatory or anything. But I do believe people should do this.

I don't think anyone who had certain standards said it was ok to be a jerk. But if they did that's not cool, I certainly don't agree with that. I did skip a few pages.

I suppose I'm a bit of an oddball. I do read info on my class. But I don't do videos, I team up with people and figure stuff out with friends since I find playing that way more enjoyable than watching a video and having someone figure it out for me. In turn I'm fine with people doing the same. It's a pre-internet way of thinking I guess? It's more fun and challenging to me.

Recently I did go back and make a new tank, and it only makes you do the first Novice training session. I don't think It's a horrible thing for tanks to take part in, doesn't take long so I do think it should be mandatory for all players with their first class. be it DPS, Heals or Tank. You get nice gear for it too so it's pretty rewarding. It doesn't teach you how to hold threat as a tank, But it gives you a good idea of how big overpower actually is, which I think is great since there's no real indication other than "Cone before you". Wait can you setup multiple training dummies at a house? Never tried it. mmm I guess you could simulate it, but if the player is new how do they even know that's a possibility... I also went through many lower level dungeons, they do a good job of introducing concepts slowly to people. But like Seku said, practical experience is where it's at gotta just go for it and hope people can be a little understanding.

At the end of the day I just want everyone to treat everyone like a human being. Duty Finder is a great tool, but it causes people to nearly treat other humans like tools. You could really play this game start to finish without saying a single word... I find THAT weird...

Circumstances matter, and everyone in this thread is dealing in absolutes. Either you're a work-hard-play-hard-high-standard-do-gooder that is a shining beacon for newbs 24/7/365, or you're an absent-minded anchor drowning the party with the party/mechanic awareness of a dead snail in their parents' basement... 24/7/365.

I think its relevant that Dragonseth hasn't done any of the higher-end end-game content, because a lot of us that have expend our high standards and peak performance there, and when we go into roulettes we tend to be more relaxed, or at least I am. It also depends on the job. When I go in on my main I'm a sprinting AoEing DPSing edgelord tank machine blah blah yadda yadda... but if I go in on my alt jobs I just wanna relax and let someone else take the tank reins for a while, and I'm a much less skilled DPS than I am a tank. I still try sure, and I know what everything does, but I'm not going to pretend I know the most up-to-date-optimal rotation or more subtle nuances - I simply don't play on the same optimized level and a more skilled person at that job could easily point out many mistakes if that's how they chose to expend their energy that day... like.. if I go in on SMN and my DoTs fall off for a few seconds during DWT do I really want someone like Dragonseth telling me what's what? Fuck no. That's not called for during a roulette. There's a reason there is casual content and hardcore content; in casual content you can afford to lower your standards. As long as you aren't actively impeding the progress of the run in one way or another it just doesn't matter. I'm not saying efficient runs and speed runs aren't fun or awesome when they happen, (or if you're tanking/healing, when you can MAKE them happen) but what kind of delusions must one be under to just expect that by default upon queueing into a roulette?

But I digress. Circumstances matter. Maybe the tank that Flashed in the middle of nowhere had his wife come in and yell at him about the laundry or to walk the dog or change their kid's diapers and he hit the GCD while looking at/talking to her. Maybe they get a phone call. Maybe they dropped their controller. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they're goddamn disabled or missing a finger. You don't know. I don't know. I don't care. I care in a raid where its expected that people have set aside time and their attention away from those distractions and that their irl responsibilities are taken care of at least for the duration of the pull. In a dungeon man... I don't care, the stakes just. Aren't. That. High. And these poor fucking pugs don't owe anybody an explanation for every simple, harmless mistake they make. In a savage farm party yeah, I'll demand an explanation if not outright tell them what I saw them do wrong; that's the time to demand your high standards - "why did you die there" "I did the thing with the thing and it made me die to the thing, sorry" "don't be sorry just don't do it again". But in a roulette none of those people owe me anything other than finishing the roulette with out wiping more than once. As a tank main I go in on tank when I want control over all these things. When I go in on DPS I accept that there is a 99% likelihood the tank is going to do dumb things I would not do myself, and ignore it, unless its actually impeding progress - then i'll say something/offer advice (I have a bit more patience than the average gamer) at the point at which I realize a less patient person would probably spout obscenities, "L2P" or whatever and leave the duty, precisely so that this poor bastard doesn't make those party-wiping mistakes when they land in a roulette a jerk. You people need to learn to pick your battles. I also know as a more experienced player that there are plenty of things I can do to apply my knowledge of game mechanics and make a new tank's job easier. I can watch aggro meters and switch targets, stand near the tank in case I pull anything, etc. Or I can just accept that a new tank is probably not going to hold aggro off me and just go balls to the walls, if I take hate I take hate, at least the thing will be dead soon.

Posts like the OP leave out 90% of the details for the sake of making an amusing although only partially (at best) true story. You can have a laugh about it but at the same time it provides nowhere near enough information to properly judge that tank.

And tooltips. Lets stick with the Flash example. It says increases enmity in all nearby enemies. Blind, etc. You can cast it every 2.5 seconds, and it costs a pittance of MP. Everything else is left up to interpretation. Having not gotten any information beyond this, what can a new player assume? Does it increase enmity permanently a la Shield Oath (They haven't gotten ShO at this point so there's no point of comparison)? By how much? More than a Savage Blade? Is it directional? 5y radius? wtf is a y? Being that Flash doesn't do damage, its entirely likely that a newbie tank used it while soloing and saw that it didn't make the thing hitting him die faster and thus never touched it again. Therefore he may not have experimented with the range. It doesn't specify whether it is around you or around the enemy (although other more advanced skills do. Collective Unconscious specifies "around the caster" and Abyssal Drain specifies "target and all enemies near it", just as two examples). Flash's animation also does not have a stark boundary like Unleash does, for instance. If the GLA/PLD is the first job they're leveling they may not have seen any other more specific tooltips in the game (Overpower specifies "in a cone before you"... Dark Passenger specifies "in a line in front of you"... ) There's any number of misinterpretations a new player that doesn't know any better could make. This all boils down to a a simple lack of empathy and inability to put yourself in that scenario prior to knowing everything you know now, and failure to consider circumstances. Also being that enmity values aren't displayed in-game, for a new player who is not privy to the proper resources yet, Flash may appear to be a relatively useless skill compared to their other abilities that actually do/reduce damage. There's also no way of knowing how enmity efficient Flash is relative to Savage Blade or RoH without googling it, and at that point, you can no longer blame the tank for not reading his tooltips, you have to blame him for "not googling it" which is ridiculous in light of the expectation that tooltips ought to preclude you from needing to "google it", at least early in the game, and that every player that knows better never asks "did you google it" they ask "did you read your tooltips". Its entirely conceivable that since most of Flash's effects are unseen, that the tank in the OP assumed that Flash applied some sort of flat buff to his enmity that would be retained when he ran over to the mobs after using it. Seems silly, of course. But totally not worth giving someone a hard time about. Hopefully the OP clarified. When I give advice I try and be specific otherwise I'm nothing more than a glorified tooltip. The only thing that is inexcusable, is if you try and offer help and people throw it back in your face, actively. Then THEY are the jerk, they need to check themselves, otherwise they deserve whatever comes to them.

Its not just tooltips; There are things that are on SE as well. For example, you can level DRK/AST/MCH without having so much as unlocked another job from their respective roles. So they basically made 3 of the least beginner-friendly jobs in the game accessible to people completely new to their roles.

The newer generation of gamers is also more accustomed to paying attention to text-based verbal in-game tutorials where the game actually spells out for you like you're an idiot what to do, a la class/job quests. Older generations see this as annoying, and are more accustomed to paying attention to the action rather than the text scroll in the chat log, in which they may not even be in the correct tab to see what the NPC's are saying. These older gamers are more likely to be waiting for a situation in game wherein using a skill in the correct way is literally the only way to progress, where you learn by DOING. Its entirely possible to just DPS and roflstomp your way through these verbal tutorials and because the game didn't give you a hard mechanical roadblock to surmount with proper skill usage, the flaws in playstyle go unnoticed. Point being, different players are on the lookout for information from different sources. Some expect user-manuals read-aloud to them by NPCs. Others expect the actual gameplay to show you how to play by forcing you into a trial and error scenario, which is actually proper game design. You learn this way in raids after all.

Most people also forget their early days in an mmo where things are all new and distracting. Even with single-player games it isn't the same. You may know what everything does but you haven't learned to actively apply it. Maybe you're not used to the controls yet, maybe you're still evolving your hotbar setup. Maybe their HUD is still set to the (horrendous) default, and they haven't learned how to properly manipulate it to where the things they need to see and don't need to see are in their rightful places. We take HUD awareness for granted in endgame but a lot of new players just aren't used to putting their eyes where they belong and haven't optimized their HUD so that all the important information they need is close to their character model. Also the muscle memory we develop while leveling and learning our jobs takes time to develop and isn't just there day 1 no matter how perfectly you understand the tooltips. There's any number of things that could explain the behaviors described in the OP but its just more amusing for people in these threads to kick back and assume that it is some drooling sniveling filthy pug on the other end of the interwebs with one thumb in their mouth and the other up their ass, playing the game with their feet.

TL;DR, pick your battles, and give people that are not being directly offensive or hindering to progress the benefit of the doubt. There are just too many variables and unless you are stopping to consider each and every one of them you have no right to enforce or impose your expectations on them (edit: in the DUTY FINDER).

It's true that we often don't have the chance to learn the life stories of the people we play with. But most people who you're pugging with really aren't interested what your performance is like on the other six days of the week. They're interested in what your performance is like right now. That also means that if you do get feedback, it's not about you as a person, but rather about your performance at the present moment.

It doesn't really matter if this isn't your "main". Your fellow pugs in DF/PF don't really care about what you've achieved on other jobs, or how many "years of experience" you have playing mmos. It doesn't even matter if you're just "playing casually" or "are distracted". Nobody is entitled to special treatment. If you mess up in the now, you still messed up. Own it.

One of the strongest motivations to improve in a game like this is the fear of not letting your teammates down. If your ego manages to survive the initial shock of being rebuked or kicked, you read up and practice. Over time, you're able to judge for yourself what the expectations are, without outside feedback. Growth is not painless.

There is a certain tact involved in giving criticism, of course. But you see more people choosing to err on the side of silently disbanding in PF, rather than risking wasting energy on a confrontation with someone who is potentially hostile even to constructive feedback. So value feedback when you get it. To be honest, you don't need to have set foot in any of the "higher-end game content" to give feedback in Sastasha. Nor should you ever impose such a restriction on others, because you'll generally always find someone out there who's cleared content at a higher level than you have.

Don't try to change the expectations. Change yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

Don't try to change the expectations. Change yourself.

---

I think you may be misunderstanding me here.

Quote from earlier in the thread that is relevant here:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardour

Ultimately you have to be self-motivated to get good at the game, and most truly self-motivated players will figure things out regardless of whether you offer them tips or not.

---

I'm not trying to change the expectations for myself, I'm fine with them just the way they are: constantly changing. My post wasn't about me. But I do adjust my expectations based on the piece of content I'm in, and I think that any reasonable person would. My expectation of people in A12s is not the same as my expectation of people in AK normal is not the same as my expectation of people in Void Ark. How this amounts to me or anyone else being entitled to special treatment, I'm clearly not understanding. I just know I don't have the energy to go into every single piece of content with the mentality of "these people are ACCOUNTABLE to ME and MY expectation". In fact "change yourself" is the exact point of my post considering that your changing expectations and adjustments you make based on the performance of the people in your group is tantamount to being a good team player, and this includes accommodating the shortcomings of a nugget tank. You can control yourself far more than you can control others and that includes YOUR expectations. If this thread proves anything its that there is no "the expectations". You say no one deserves special treatment, but its this mentality and lack of willingness to give a situation special treatment that is pretty definitively a lack of willingness to change yourself, as you say. After all "my way or the high way" isn't really a flexible mentality or one that fosters personal growth/improvement. I in fact support someone like Dragonseth's mentality up to the point where he defines a situation like that described in the OP as being a display of disrespect. Come now. Even his expectations of himself, like when he described the situation where he lost aggro on WAR as "unacceptable" - how do we know it was his fault? Did he lose it to a BLM that didn't Quell? was there a NIN that just figured Shadewalker was there to make their hotbar look pretty? How are these failures any greater or lesser? I stand by my closing statement that there are too many variables that too-often go unconsidered.

I'm trying to play devil's advocate on behalf of a new tank in duty roulette content in a thread in which the general sentiment has been "lol@this new tank struggling to learn gameplay mechanics" and "this tank in DF that is making mistakes is being disrespectful of his team mates by not having immediate, 100% understanding of the ambiguous information spoon-fed to him in text form by myself and NPCs regardless of how much time he has had to apply said information and form good gameplay habits". Someone earlier in the thread made a work-hard-play-hard reference, I'd add "explain-hard" to that motto, since the less specific you are with new players, the more mistakes are made, and tooltips are a prime example of this.

I'm not too sure where you got the implication that I was making excuses for my own poor play in PF content, in which there are explicit, pre-defined, player-defined parameters people are expected to perform around and I would be the first to acknowledge my own mistakes if they were impacting anyone other than myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

The only situation where you would need to spam overpower to keep aggro is if you are undergeared.

No dps will be able to rip aggro if you play war right with buffs and are around the same gear level. Simple. If you are needing to OP spam to hold aggro id reccommend checking your rotation and seeing where you can improve.

Flash is 99% useless and the 1% time it isnt is for emergency situations that were caused by the tanks own blunder (getting pacified shortly before a horde of enemies spawn).

Other than that, i guess you could just use it for extra "why not" padding during pacification, but its generally useless. Ive had flash on my war up to lvl 45 before i realized i never use it, and i dont miss it.

i understand you dont have war at 60 yet, and perhaps you didnt have a longtime lvl 50 war during ARR, so the learning process is still in effect for you, but once you get more accustomed to war, you will find yourself as well, almost never or if ever, using flash.

---

Couple points:

1) I am still leveling and gearing up, so sometimes I am very far behind the DPS in the gear power curve. I did the Vault for the first time yesterday, and I was the only one who didn't get sync'd down. I didn't spam it, but I added a Flash to every initial Overpower on trash packs. Nobody seemed to mind, or if they did, they didn't mind enough to say anything. Maybe they weren't expecting me to do much besides hold AE aggro.

2) I do understand my rotations, but not every DPS understands which order to take mobs down, even with marks. Sometimes, in that 4-6 mob pull, DPS fixates on mob 5 while you are working rotations and moving down the line. When a mob turns to run off and I don't want to interrupt a rotation, Flash works just fine. It's on my bar for a reason, same as Provoke, which might get used once every 3-4 DF runs.

3) I screw up plenty, but not everything is based on my screw up. If I mark 1-2-3, and DPS starts with 3, that's not on me, but rather than adhere to some hard and fast rotation rule for the sake of forum purity, I may hit Flash. Once again, I use it infrequently enough that I almost always have full MP when I do use it, and it doesn't interrupt any of my TP combos. It can be and is very handy that way.

4) Sometimes, the DPS is such that it's all big pulls and sick AE. My job at that point changes from proper enmity rotations to flinging Tomahawks, running between packs with Flash (since it is PBAE, insta-cast and doesn't require a target to work properly), and then simply holding AE enmity while my DPS does their AE "nuke the world" thing. And even then, I can't spam Flash because 4-5 casts puts a WAR OOMP. I just mix it in to make my DF life easier sometimes.

Bottom line, there are times where Flash is the perfect tool for the job. It is not keybound to any of my G13 keys and I have to actually click it, so it is a background tool, but a tool that has uses nonetheless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venjenz

Couple points:

2) I do understand my rotations, but not every DPS understands which order to take mobs down, even with marks. Sometimes, in that 4-6 mob pull, DPS fixates on mob 5 while you are working rotations and moving down the line.

4) Sometimes, the DPS is such that it's all big pulls and sick AE. My job at that point changes from proper enmity rotations to flinging Tomahawks, running between packs with Flash [...] then, I can't spam Flash because 4-5 casts puts a WAR OOMP.

---

Why are you numbering enemies in a large mob? Forget kill order, it's all AoE at that point. Put up maim, use bloodbath, use berserk, and spam overpower. Even if your offensive cooldowns are down, you want to spam overpower instead of flash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venjenz

snip

---

You have to put yourself in your DPS' shoes.

Many DPS jobs are forced to play inefficiently if focusing one mob down at a time. Most Melee jobs don't get meaningful AoE until post-lvl30, but BRD, BLM, and SMN all want to AoE pretty much any time you're tanking 3-4+ mobs. You can't hope for them to do an ST rotation, numbers or not. On that note, all non PLD tanks have meaningful AoE and shouldn't really be focusing one mob down either in a pull of significant size. Even once your AoE is over, rotate targets, multi-dot, whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Why are you numbering enemies in a large mob? Forget kill order, it's all AoE at that point. Put up maim, use bloodbath, use berserk, and spam overpower. Even if your offensive cooldowns are down, you want to spam overpower instead of flash.

---

I'm not, and that was part of my point. In large AE pulls, I don't mark and I don't rotate through mobs doing HS->SS->BB blah blah...I do Overpower and Flash. Flash does not get used until I see how the AE beatdown is going, and if it looks like I will be there a while, I use Flash maybe every third/fourth Overpower just to make sure I don't run out of TP. On some fights, that can happen, so I just buffer it a bit, knowing yes that I am suffering a minor loss of DPS. It's an insurance tool at that point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You have to put yourself in your DPS' shoes.

Many DPS jobs are forced to play inefficiently if focusing one mob down at a time. Most Melee jobs don't get meaningful AoE until post-lvl30, but BRD, BLM, and SMN all want to AoE pretty much any time you're tanking 3-4+ mobs. You can't hope for them to do an ST rotation, numbers or not. On that note, all non PLD tanks have meaningful AoE and shouldn't really be focusing one mob down either in a pull of significant size. Even once your AoE is over, rotate targets, multi-dot, whatever.

---

And once again, I am not focusing targets on large pulls. The 3-4 target, rotate combos, mark order pull is for standard DF pugs where the DPS isn't fast, it isn't AE, people aren't geared or are new to the instance, etc. I know the freaking difference between tanking styles and when to use either. I was merely pointing out that there are situations where Flash is a useful tool for Warrior tanking, because some have made it sound as if a WAR even having that button on their toolbar makes them n00b clowns who should be vote kicked for ever touching it.

I primarily use Overpower, of course. But things don't always go according to plan, and sometimes a DPS or healer runs the wrong way and grabs more friends near the end of an AE cycle and my TP may be low but I still need that AE enmity. What should I do at that point if not Flash? I realize on forums every WAR but me tanks perfectly using perfect rotations that are Elitist Jerk approved and they have never missed a button press and back in their day they had to tank naked and only had a wooden spoon for a weapon, and they were grateful. But for the mortal WAR tanks of the actual game, sometimes they use Flash in combo with Overpower becase unlike forum perfection, sometimes things don't go o plan and you have to still get the job done, even if sloppy and imperfect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

It's inexcusable with how many resources there are. If anything, coming in without any effort to learn an instance expecting to be carried is a jerk move.

---

You want too much out of these groups. You want your 4/8/24 man groups to run like a preformed group, without putting in the effort of forming your own group.

Most of us can agree with not wanting a tank that refuses to actually try, but not every tank is going to treat this game like a part-time job.

You're just as wrong as they are for expecting every random player to play at your standards. There is no rule in this game that you have to queue alone. In a premade group, it's perfectly reasonable to expect certain standards from people, and you're 100% justified kicking them if they don't perform at those standards... But in a group with 3/7/23 other random people, YOU are the one that's wrong if you're expecting them to know everything about their class and the dungeon before even starting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rockint

You want too much out of these groups. You want your 4/8/24 man groups to run like a preformed group, without putting in the effort of forming your own group.

---

Gee, I guess it's too much to ask that people watch a short 3 minute youtube video before a dungeon. I never knew watching a video was a lot harder than going out of one's way to get people for a premade. Learn something new every day. I'm 100% justified to kick ANYONE, premade or not, if they're playing like an uneducated ice mage.

Come now, we all know that only dedicated portions of game populations actively research their class/role, especially when it comes to the lower-level range of content. I can't imagine reaching level 15 for the first time and thinking "Hey, I better watch a video about Sastasha and/or make sure I know how to perform my 3-button combo". Most won't take that step until they're absolutely committed to the game - and that feeling usually doesn't kick in for most until they're nearing mid/max level. Don't get me wrong, I hardcore cringe at some of the shenanigans I see in all ranges of content, but given I primarily stick to Duty Finder (where groups will forever remain variable), you'd be injuring your own mental health by crusading against those who aren't at least half-aware of what their class/role's optimal formulas are (of which there are pleeeeenty).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RopeDrink

you'd be injuring your own mental health by crusading against those who aren't at least half-aware of what their class/role's optimal formulas are (of which there are pleeeeenty).

---

For the record, people only have access to 2 button combos in sastasha. I'm not refering to those guys, not by a long shot. I'm referring the the lvl 60 dragoon that doesn't activate botd or heavy thrust up, who keeps being the responsible player for multiple wipes. Are you telling me those guys should have a pass?

I'd wager most players don't research the games they play. They just hop in and go until they hit a wall at which point they'll look stuff up or play another game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Gee, I guess it's too much to ask that people watch a short 3 minute youtube video before a dungeon.

---

I mentioned the 3 minute video thing to my FC after a 2nd wipe in Aery, iirc. I was on your side, btw. And three different people in my own FC defended NOT watching the videos because it's more fun for surprise, roleplaying, etc. I basically got shouted down on the point, and as newer member, I let it go and didn't argue, but apparently, there is sentiment out there against watching the various videos or learning up an encounter before you attempt it.

For me, I won't go into an instance before watching the video, unless I've done it enough hat I remember it well. FF14 has a ton of dungeons and the boss fights all have tons of mechanics to remember. To me, the RP value of training as a WAR is self-evident, but apparently others disagree. They feel it is RP to blindly rush into serious danger without any clue whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venjenz

To me, the RP value of training as a WAR is self-evident, but apparently others disagree. They feel it is RP to blindly rush into serious danger without any clue whatsoever.

---

i don't watch guides either, except the content is really old or maybe for savage fights. running the new dungeons and 24 man raids blind at patchday is one of the best things this game has to offer. this has nothing to do with RP for me, it's fun to figure out mechanics and see all the new stuff first hand. i remember Halatali HM 2nd boss where you have to get the blind debuff and Amdapor City HM first boss where you have to turn around while he casts this one skill, or otherwise the whole map is full of aoes. i figuered these mechanics out, all by myself. we wiped a few times beforehand and were discussing how this works and what we have to do. it was SO rewarding and fun to finally beat the boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

i don't watch guides either, except the content is really old or maybe for savage fights. running the new dungeons and 24 man raids blind at patchday is one of the best things this game has to offer. this has nothing to do with RP for me, it's fun to figure out mechanics and see all the new stuff first hand. i remember Halatali HM 2nd boss where you have to get the blind debuff and Amdapor City HM first boss where you have to turn around while he casts this one skill, or otherwise the whole map is full of aoes. i figuered these mechanics out, all by myself. we wiped a few times beforehand and were discussing how this works and what we have to do. it was SO rewarding and fun to finally beat the boss.

---

An example of why people like to run stuff blind, where I prefer to be prepared. That's the rub of DF roulette...you find all kinds. 8)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaj85

And this is why not a lot of people tank. They get criticized for trying/learning.....

---

People don't tank because they don't find the prospect of having less impact on a group to be exciting. DPS players want to control performance, Tank players want to control direction and Healer players want to control stability.

But I think one of the things that has given this game a good tank population is that it's one of the few modern games out there that are actually making Warrior class archetypes do their job. In any other game, knights and warriors etc. are hiding behind something else and are as fragile as a mage. And if you decide to be a tank instead of your DPS, you lose anything that makes you threatening. It's so stupid and it's one of the things this game managed to avoid completely with what seems to be not-so-common sense.

A lot of people are quick to point this out but how many people do you know play DPS and quit playing DPS just because someone told them their DPS sucked? They probably didn't care. They were probably like I'm a Death Knight or whatever WooooooOOOOOOOOOOOooooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEoooooooohhh *darkness and stuff*

Quote:

---

For the record, people only have access to 2 button combos in sastasha. I'm not refering to those guys, not by a long shot.

---

Of course not, it was an example of which most still applies, even to the 60 stuff. You should know by now that when it comes to Joe Soaps out there, very few are in that state where they want to become great at what they're doing - which typically involves research. I'm the type of person who wants to take things to the next level, but not so much to a point where it feels like work. People like me do their research to a certain point, enjoy putting things into 'practice' and don't shy away from asking for tips, but I personally don't cut myself over not being pristine savage-conquering material player of perfection.

Then there are others won't even research - possibly ask for second-hand tips or discuss things with FC/World/NN, but probably assume they know enough to do a passable job. Some log in with variable game-time, hoping to use it any way they can without any care for whether they're making a decent go of it. Others wouldn't know common sense if it punched them in the nostril. Point is, everyone is a variable and not all that many of them will meet expectations if they're set too high. You'll accomplish nothing but stress by putting yourself into the DF mincing machine and then biting back against everyone who doesn't meet them, even in 60 content where you would rightfully assume most have a half-competent understanding of what they're doing (shock horror, some don't even after all that time). The right way would be to add people you DO see playing to your standard and rejoining them - you avoid the types you're complaining about entirely and have a better grip of the progress flow. Kicking randoms out of a roulette dungeon doesn't really accomplish much at the end of the day - they can sign up to the next one and continue flailing around like nothing happened for the most part, and just open up the door for a potentially better, or maybe equal or even worse example filling the void - with a high chance of a toxic air hanging over the group as a result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You're right, I have no way of reading minds to see if someone read their tooltips. I'm not psychic. All I can do is make assumptions based on what I see, when I see someone using an ability correctly or when I see someone spamming Bootshine instead of building stacks. You're right that it's unfair, and I'm just judging performance.

---

No worries! I'm fine with you changing your definition to something performance based as it is verifible. Could you lay out your performance standard? What is and isn't acceptable performance for a new tank in your opinion?

Ex:
Are they allowed to lose threat, miss with flash, etc?

Here's how I see it. There's only so many times you need to flub an ability before common sense should kick in, even if you don't read the tooltip (as far as, say, PLD is concerned). If people don't read a flash-tooltip and decide to use it in the middle of nowhere thinking it's a tab-target ability, they should clearly see it doesn't work that way after 1st/2nd time. It may take slightly longer to adapt to the actual range of the AoE effect, so a missed flash here or there (given latency can effect this in terms of enemies on the move even for experienced players), should be forgiven, provided it doesn't happen regularly. If it does, then positioning could be questioned, nevermind their use of the ability.

Losing threat is a bit different, given it'll happen often to new players and most will immediately assume it's a DPS problem for 'hitting what I haven't marked' (when they shouldn't be playing like this in the first place). Most new tanks will resort to comboing single mobs while relying on flash for the rest (if at all - I've seen more than enough who go full single-target and don't even flash), whereas an experienced tank would rotate between the mobs with their combos with flash being mostly an opener/filler between combos. I'm a PC player but I imagine tab-target rotations on controller is a bit more awkward in comparison, so maybe platform has some kind of effect(?)

Then there are other cases where new-healers are pre-HoT'ing the group or applying emnity generating abilities before the tank has even gotten near mobs (this happens a lot), as well as TONNES of aggressive DPS in the lower bracket who understand that if a healer is awake, you don't really need a tank there to push forward, so an inexperienced tank is on the backfoot straight away if they're not up to speed with how emnity works or others are also making it a little harder than it needs to be for them (but that only really applies in very low level content).

An up and coming tank should typically be able to do a passable job simply from common-sense alone. By the time they realize they do/don't like the class/role, it's then they should take it up a notch by checking how they can improve on their play - this is a step a lot of people skip. If I see tanks flailing around in the mid-level range, that's when you should be a bit concerned, as it shows they probably have no interest in doing better than they currently are and/or just don't care. As for the higher-level aspect, that's when making your own parties should be used to weed out the chaff who got to 60 and still haven't got an iota of a clue what they're doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Here's how I see it. There's only so many times you need to flub an ability before common sense should kick in, even if you don't read the tooltip (as far as, say, PLD is concerned). If people don't read a flash-tooltip and decide to use it in the middle of nowhere thinking it's a tab-target ability, they should clearly see it doesn't work that way after 1st/2nd time. It may take slightly longer to adapt to the actual range of the AoE effect, so a missed flash here or there (given latency can effect this in terms of enemies on the move even for experienced players), should be forgiven, provided it doesn't happen regularly. If it does, then positioning could be questioned, nevermind their use of the ability.

Losing threat is a bit different, given it'll happen often to new players and most will immediately assume it's a DPS problem for 'hitting what I haven't marked' (when they shouldn't be playing like this in the first place). Most new tanks will resort to comboing single mobs while relying on flash for the rest (if at all - I've seen more than enough who go full single-target and don't even flash), whereas an experienced tank would rotate between the mobs with their combos with flash being mostly an opener/filler between combos. I'm a PC player but I imagine tab-target rotations on controller is a bit more awkward in comparison, so maybe platform has some kind of effect(?)

---

Here is where I think it gets tricky when trying to define expectations:
Flash -> Flash generates more enmity than fast blade -> savage blade. Technically speaking, appropriate target cycling isnt necessary to hold a group of mobs at low level. If you can hold off a dps with the combo, you can hold every target off of them by spamming flash.

So for the sake of discussion, let's say we have a party for sastasha like:
* new GLD (w/ sufficient gear)
* vet BLM
* vet BLM
* new CNJ (assume heals only for the sake of the example).

The first 2 bats are pulled, the dps are on different targets.

If I say:
"The tank is allowed to lose threat on 1 bat." It's a little frustrating....
If the tank can hold threat on 1 bat, there is little reason the tank should not be able to hold both. Spamming flash is easier than comboing anyway.

The opposite is true too though... If the tank is allowed to lose threat on 1 bat, there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to lose threat on both. Ex. if they lose threat because flash wasnt spammed fast enough, its reasonable to assume both BLMs could pull off.

Quote:

---

Spamming flash is easier than comboing anyway.

---

Spamming flash costs resources - combos don't. Relying entirely on flash alone also means you're doing absolutely no damage at all. It's all well and fine mashing flash, but you only need to flash about as many times as there are mobs if you anticipate AoE damage, provided you do some rotating after. It's not exactly difficult, thus should be encouraged. The above is akin to bad habits that work fine in the lower bracket but can become a crutch or lead to bigger problems before, say, PLD's reach the Sheltron & combo variety stage of not even needing to consider their MP any more.

Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Flash -> Repeat is a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Spamming flash costs resources - combos don't. Relying entirely on flash alone also means you're doing absolutely no damage at all. It's all well and fine mashing flash, but you only need to flash about as many times as there are mobs if you anticipate AoE damage, provided you do some rotating after. It's not exactly difficult, thus should be encouraged. The above is akin to bad habits that work fine in the lower bracket but can become a crutch or lead to bigger problems before, say, PLD's reach the Sheltron & combo variety stage of not even needing to consider their MP any more.

---

I would argue that prioritizing DPS over your ability to hold threat is a bad habit. IMO it is better for a new tank to have more than the minimum amount of flashes than not enough. Why flash at all in the above scenario if you are going to lose threat on 1 of the bats? Is it reasonable to expect a brand new to tank to hold perfect threat + hit max DPS?

I like how the mention of DPS causes a jump to an absolute that wasn't even being discussed. Nobody said anything about maximizing or even prioritizing DPS - it's about emnity being easily held with combos that keep your MP up enough to always be ready for extra pulls, patrols, mechanic/spawns, and anything that could happen mid-fight - while actually doing DPS and never needing to stop - whereas a flash-masher will hold aggro 100% there and then, but will have nothing for emergencies, will be doing absolutely zero damage, and has no backup for those moments where extras join in - and may even need to stop after packs to let MP regenerate. Sure, in the low level bracket with DPS trucking random targets, a tank may need to resort to this - but should not be relying on it entirely. It's simply not necessary and has more drawbacks than positives, even if it stops that 'bat' from losing aggro. I wouldn't call a tank bad for losing sight of an enemy once in a while - even a rotator can't always see how hard X is hitting Y while they're weaving on different targets - at least they'll have MP for if the situation demands it, whereas someone who mashes flash repeatedly will overcome that situation at a cost later.

Quote:

---

Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Flash -> Repeat is a thing.

---

That's pretty much the point I was making. My posts are aimed squarely against the 'mashing flash and flash alone' perspective, even if it does stop that 'bat' from losing aggro because a DPS is going ham right out of the gate.

This is why as a new GLD tank you should just mark your targets that way the DPS know what you plan on hitting first unless of course your fine with stuff getting nuked quick in which case spam that flash baby.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaj85

And this is why not a lot of people tank. They get criticized for trying/learning.....

---

Criticism isn't limited to the blue jobs.

It's no different than DPS that have no clue how to read tooltips and do a valid rotation, or when a tank or even healer is doing more damage than the two DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lavitias

This is why as a new GLD tank you should just mark your targets that way the DPS know what you plan on hitting first unless of course your fine with stuff getting nuked quick in which case spam that flash baby.

---

No. Learn to hit every mob, because DPS AoEs, which are gained early in the game, don't listen to some fake number system.

Quote:

---

No. Learn to hit every mob, because DPS AoEs, which are gained early in the game, don't listen to some fake number system.

---

It's true. You'll also learn that 8/10 players in the lower end of the spectrum, content wise, won't see the point of marks, or (regardless of whether they do or not) may even intentionally go against them for fun. Not everyone, of course, but even if marking was taken seriously by everyone, it's not really the way to play as a tank - I personally reserve marks purely for any priority targets if we have some sprouts around, or someone who isn't so sure how certain things work, or for ease of vision (eg. exploding blobs in Sohm can get drowned in much larger mobs and become hard to see during some packs, so marking them is beneficial even if everyone knows what they're doing).

Rule of thumb for a while has been (for a Paladin, anyway) to flash as many times as there are mobs (smaller packs), then just weave between the individuals. First mistake a lot of new tanks make is flashing once then doing combos single-target (so they'll lose emnity pretty quick to any consistent AoE), some use flash a bit too much, which is a much lesser evil, but the best will have gauged the team enough to know what they need, execute that, then weave their way to glory - others go the extra mile by monitoring the emnity ratios and knowing if/when there's a good time to throw on Sword and go ham depending on emnity levels & comfort with their healer. I wouldn't expect this from an up-and-coming tank, but I would expect them to do their best to prevent any enemies from losing interest in the tank and going for a merry stroll towards a Healer or DPS.

It's not like these things are difficult to learn, it's just not made very obvious when levelling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RopeDrink

I like how the mention of DPS causes a jump to an absolute that wasn't even being discussed.

---

The only absolute I mentioned was that holding threat should take priority over DPS.

With that in mind, I'm not saying that tanks should constantly spam flash. This is an absolute you jumped to by clipping 1 phase out of a larger hypothetical scenario used to argue a point about new tank expectations.

I am arguing that it is silly to say something like "the tank should be able to hold threat on 1 of the 2 targets". If you're going to allow 1 loss in a standard, there's no reason to not allow 2 losses. If you're going to require 1 be held, there's no reason to not require that both be held.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technole

No. Learn to hit every mob, because DPS AoEs, which are gained early in the game, don't listen to some fake number system.

---

Close, but not quite. I agree that tanks should learn to hit every mob but that's because it allows DPS to AoE without problems. In a similar vein, however, DPS should likewise learn when to rein it in and stay under the tank's threat ceiling.

Being a good DPS isn't about putting out big numbers it's about doing the best damage possible without taking unnecessary damage and among other things, that means not pulling hate from the tank.

It's all simply an amalgamation of everyone playing to each others strengths, rather than taking a solo-minded approach (which a lot of people do). A team that has each other in mind, playing at a pace that is comfortable for everyone, will typically always result in smoothness. However, if people see a tank isn't generating emnity as much as they like, they may blame the DPS/Healer while the DPS/Healer blame the tank. The reality could be any number of things - the tank not doing certain things, the DPS trucking like crazy against a particular thing while the tank is trying to gen emnity across the board during a larger than average pull (or attacking the split second after tank has gotten into the fight), or a Healer going overheal crazy (like those newcomers who love sitting there using Cure II when a tank has lost 2% HP rather than just doing DPS until they actually NEED heals.

EDIT:
Example of single mindedness - been grinding some scrips in DF-Sohm Al, got a highly geared Warrior tank (I was healing for a change). They decided to run off without me at the start - pulling when I hadn't moved. Was tempted to just let them die to make a point, but hey, it's not like I don't want to get through the content. They did this numerous times (running off while I'm phasing in to the next area etc) so I chalked it up to either lack of care or plain lack of awareness (tanks with no awareness is one of the bigger dangers). Didn't wait for people to cross boss-lines and prepare, waited for nothing. They allowed mobs to focus on me at least three times, peeling only when I was being gnawed down to 5-10% while healing THEM from their aggressive pulls in DPS stance. As far as I'm concerned, no amount of gear makes this person a better tank than a newbie who loses emnity once in a while but is actually making the effort to reactively remedy their errors before the obvious warning signs (eg. Near dead healers or DPS being the only indication that they're not doing their job properly).

To be fair, the attack power nerf that occurred during 3.2 in Heavensward really made keeping hate with Flash tougher in lower-leveled dungeons as a class, especially for new players who just started gearing as tanks.

For example when I leveled my Excalibur alt (Mikeru) as Gladiator in the level 15-17 dungeons, I straggled to keep hate on multiple mobs even with Shield Lob and using Flash 4 times on multiple mobs due to the lower attack power and the gear discrepancy with veteran party members. Even using the Fast Blade - Savage Blade combo combined with a "Fight or Flight" on a single target barely generates aggro. For reference, here is my tank gear:

- Plundered Celeta (iL 17)
- Brand-new Cuirass (iL 17)
- Brand-new Gauntlet (iL 17)
- Plundered Plate Belt (iL 17)
- Brand-new Trousers (iL 17)
- Brand-new Sabatons (iL 17)

- Weathered Earring (iL 1)
- Weathered Choker (iL 1)
- Weathered Wristlets (iL 1)
- Weathered Ring (iL 1)
- Brand-new ring (iL 30)

These gear items are basically the High-Quality tank gear set that most beginning tanks can equip at best due to their level and resources available early on in the game. Building and maintaining enmity are important tasks as tank, especially when they reach Brayflox's Longstop, but getting the habit of doing so in earlier dungeons can be real challenging for many new tanks as a result of the attack power nerf.

it takes awhile to be good at tanking, and FF14 low level dungeons don't help cause the kids gloves are on and they are very generous to low level players that don't play their role. Its not till level 45-50 dungeons does the game actually punish people for not playing their role, Stone Vigil for example

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

For example when I leveled my Excalibur alt (Mikeru) as Gladiator in the level 15-17 dungeons, I straggled to keep hate on multiple mobs even with Shield Lob and using Flash 4 times on multiple mobs due to the lower attack power and the gear discrepancy with veteran party members. Even using the Fast Blade - Savage Blade combo combined with a "Fight or Flight" on a single target barely generates aggro. For reference, here is my tank gear:

- Plundered Celeta (iL 17)
- Brand-new Cuirass (iL 17)
- Brand-new Gauntlet (iL 17)
- Plundered Plate Belt (iL 17)
- Brand-new Trousers (iL 17)
- Brand-new Sabatons (iL 17)

- Weathered Earring (iL 1)
- Weathered Choker (iL 1)
- Weathered Wristlets (iL 1)
- Weathered Ring (iL 1)
- Brand-new ring (iL 30)

---

You are missing one important thing from that list: Your weapon. The weapon is by far the most important piece of equipment for doing damage and generating aggro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valaeric

Being a good DPS isn't about putting out big numbers it's about doing the best damage possible without taking unnecessary damage and among other things, that means not pulling hate from the tank.

---

If I ever come across a DD that has to hold off DPS because they'll pull it off me, it's prime indication I need to get better at tanking!

The level disparity can be tricky especially on the leveling dungeons. If the tank is just on the first level where they can enter the dungeon, and having latest gear they can have, the gear can still be up to 4 levels below them, just due the gaps (in pre 50). Add into this a skilled synced down dps who's on the level and gear of the dungeons max and there can be 4 levels disparity between them, and even more between their gear. This happened to me when I was leveling tank, in Brayflox. The dmg complained about me loosing hate, I pointed out that even if I do full enmity combo they still keep peeling it from me. It went smooth from there, I think they reigned in their damage a bit or started to distribute it differently or so. Turned out to be a nice guy.

My pet peeve with tanking is when I am gathering a crowd of mobs and a ranged dps grabs a mob and then stands out of my range and keeps attacking it. Its like, sure let me bring this crowd over to you since you can't be inconvenienced to bring that single mob to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sida

The level disparity can be tricky especially on the leveling dungeons.

---

I think people fail to understand what a big difference this makes. As I was working on my anima weapon on warrior I was doing a lot of expert with the i260 weapon. I had full augmented shire gear(270) with materia melds. So I was ilevel 270 on all slots except weapon which was 260. That weapon is 2 weapon damage lower than the lux version. It was kind of interesting to watch how much hate a maxed out dps with a 275 weapon could do. In fact, in deliverance on bosses, I couldn't out threat a dps and would eventually have to jump back into defiance for a bit. That's with a minor gear difference, and I know how to do a proper berserk opener.

Speaking to the topic at hand, and with the above in mind why are the dps not equally at fault? Obviously some people suck and just don't even bother to read their skills, sure try to help and then ridicule them if they fail to heed advice. If a tank is at least trying to hold hate though but is still new and doesn't know all the game's secrets, why can't a dps change targets? It's likely going to be a skilled dps who's pulling hate off a lesser skilled/geared tank. So watch your hate generation, when it gets close to pulling change targets where you'll be way behind and that gives the tank some breathing room. It just seems like everyone looks at every nuance of tanking and declares a tank terrible, but at the same time never says anything about a dps that just blindly mashes out dps with no concern for their own threat. As a dps I could go into a dungeon and pull hate on every mob and no one will ever say a word. As a tank if any mob so much as blinks at someone else you'll hear no end about how terrible the tank is.