Should the Heavensward Leveling dungeons and trials have item level requirements?

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Originally Posted by Miste

It's so weird...this response of yours...it is like you didn't read what I said past the first paragraph...Oh well...

I guess you also didn't read my other recent post either about Dusk Vigil problems I've encountered.

Did you catch the post on the first page about the Vault?

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Never mind that I specifically and clearly responded to things past the first paragraph, I guess.

You have a kick function for the rare instances where people can't do whatever. Feel free to use it.

There is a post above waiting for a reply that I made.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

That is all I am going to say, give me more respect and I will start doing the same. You are enabling people to be lazy for no reason, it is disrespectful to anyone that has to clear a DF with them. There is no holes with what I said.

If that is really your stance then you should be proposing ALL DFS to be able cleared nakkied since putting effort into gearing is too hard and "not fun"

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This is an absurd notion of respect that crosses the line into entitlement. I'm being amicable towards you. To suggest I am being disrespectful to you simply because I disagree with you and simply because I don't think other players exist to do whatever I want is utterly insane. I obviously made a mistake by replying to you again. I will not repeat that mistake.

Sorry, asking people to be prepared is not entitlement. entitlement is expecting me to carry people that are under geared. So yes that is majorly disrespectful to me. I do not understand why people should be "entitled" to being max 60 in 270 gear in 4 days of playing, that is how you are sounding to me, that or you expect new players to be carried up to the last msq quest in level 1 gear by people. fortunately the MSQ quests have some standard and makes that impossible, maybe those should be harder then the gatecheck?

The DF should not let you enter it with crafter gear on. This should not be happening:

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Originally Posted by Miste

http://i.imgur.com/6GJ85IT.png

This is a tank queueing for a dungeon wearing all crafting gear and healing accessories and level 50 weapon going into level 60 content. The game let me do it. So I guess it isn't a problem?

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

Happened to me in the 50 roulette, Amdapor Hard with a BLM that not only had a lvl 17 weapon, but also mostly gathering accessories and a lvl 27 shield, even without parsing, it was clear their contribution was absolutely pathetic and detrimental to the dungeon (they actually didn't have enough HP to survive many basic mechanics) so me and my friend (healer and DPS respectively) had to pick up their slack to get a clear. This is not okay, why are DPS allowed to enter with DoL/DoH accessories anyway? Why are they even allowed to enter with a lvl 17 weapon?

Also, the argument that it doesn't matter since you cleared the instance is a very flimsy excuse, carrying people who are too lazy and/or inconsiderate to pull their own weight shouldn't be encouraged, it is not too much to ask someone to not enter an instance with a weapon 130 ilvls below the par.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Okay so I know the DF has rules in place for average item level in order to queue for specific content, but I find what I just saw to be very ridiculous in terms of what the DF will allow players to do.

http://i.imgur.com/zMiA9S0.png?1
Also just some factual testing of why weapon is so important that the game should not allow what this BLM did...

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Originally Posted by Altena

Just before maintanence, needed to do one last DR:Expert.

The DRG in the party was red dotting / dc'ing while in the first cutscene so scoped out their gear.

They had a whole tonne of 260/270 stuff, both left and right side but their weapon was a.... True Ice Spear!

As in, the i110 lvl 50 Shiva weapon..

At level 60.
In a DR:Ex....

I mean.... This was a mistake right? Surely they were just trying on some glamour before they entered and they were going to switch when we started the dungeon...
Honestly won't know because they D/c'd after 5-10 mins of being stuck in the little force field thingy at the start so we couldn't finish our DR:Ex anyway.

As far as a stat check is concerned - I think there should be a "minimum weapon iLvl" check as well.. Weapon damage just accounts for far too much, regardless what role you are playing.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

It was an issue back then too. One of the reasons why I would see wipes on Bismarck NM was because people were still using their i90-i100 relic weapons. The maxed out versions I could understand, but 90-100 in a lv 57 trial?

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Would be nice was running the Vault today and the healer was so under geared that if the first boss used his LB move on them it would one shot them and it took 3 runs getting lucky that they didn't get targeted to beat it

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You have disrespected both me and Miste for not taking time to understand what we are really saying. I told you that you missed my point and your reply was I had none. That is beyond rude and now proven you are not worth my time.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Never mind that I specifically and clearly responded to things past the first paragraph, I guess.

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No...you didn't. You keep reiterating things I already addressed... Like again this quote:

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

You have a kick function for the rare instances where people can't do whatever. Feel free to use it.

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I already addressed this multiple times:

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Originally Posted by Miste

You can vote kick people, sure, but in the end they still wasted their time and everyone elses because now you have to sit there waiting for member in progress which sometimes a long time passes and you don't get a replacement and then sometimes whole group just ends up leaving and having to requeue...so...move on with your day? Maybe or maybe you end up wasting 20-40 minutes.

Why put up with that wasted time when it could all be solved by just adjusting the DF system a bit.

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Originally Posted by Miste

and wearing an i42 weapon one time <.< suffice it to say he couldn't hold hate and was getting rekt so bad the healer ends up dead from healing him and we had to vote kick...in the end we waited 10 mins for a rep tank and never got one so we all had to requeue.

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So can you give me a logical reason for players to just accept this wasted time and not simply ask for changes to be made? Do you know how long DPS queues are sometimes to end up having to disband and requeue? This isn't no '15 seconds of my day' wasted like you ridiculously claimed in a response to Ama. It's like anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour depending on the situation.

You also ignored the question I asked in my last response to you.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So, can you actually give me a logical reason not to add simple basic minimum item levels so players who are queuing actually have gear strong enough to survive the unavoidable damage in the dungeon?

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"Use vote kick" has already been refuted as not 100% solving the issue. Time was still wasted and if no replacement is forth coming usually people ditch out and ends up so everyone has to requeue. So in the end the player did actually stop the group from completing the content and now everyone has to wait in line again.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I'm being amicable towards you.

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To be fair in your response to me you called us whiners. So Ama might have been upset about that since you basically called everyone asking for this change "whining about it" so that includes them as well. Not sure that is very amicable really.

I mean my first post responding to you was completely respectful, so I don't think it was necessary tbh.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

simply because I don't think other players exist to do whatever I want

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You're still missing the point. It isn't what WE want. We are pointing out what the GAME demands in order to complete the content.

If you have a healer getting one shot by the sword LB on first boss of the Vault that means that the player is not geared properly for the GAME'S DEMANDS. The game does not intend for the healer to get one shot and wipe the party 3 times, therefore the game demands you need a specific amount of HP/defense/VIT w/e to survive the unavoidable damage.

In this entire game of FFXIV unavoidable damage should NEVER one shot someone that has full health, protect, and no avoidable debuffs on their character like "Vulnerability Up" which makes them take more damage. Simple facts. (The only exception to this would be Tanks, since some tank busters like in A12S for example can one shot a tank if they forget to use a tank defensive cooldown)

This entire thread is basically tl;dr, but I'd like to propose an alternate solution of my own.

Make accessories not contribute towards item level at all.

In the vast majority of cases where undergeared players cheese item level requirements to get into dungeons that they have little to no chance of clearing (or expect a carry), it's done through equipping accessories that don't even belong to their class, because accessories have no class restrictions. And accessories also happen to be the easiest high item level gear to get. In such cases, it's BLATANTLY clear that the ONLY reason they're equipping such accessories is because they want people to carry them through something they shouldn't have any business doing in the first place.

This type of solution will basically ensure that players WILL actually meet the statistical requirement to make a meaningful contribution towards dungeon runs, if only because the weapons and armors have much tighter class restrictions to equip them.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

This entire thread is basically tl;dr, but I'd like to propose an alternate solution of my own.

Make accessories not contribute towards item level at all.

In the vast majority of cases where undergeared players cheese item level requirements to get into dungeons that they have little to no chance of clearing (or expect a carry), it's done through equipping accessories that don't even belong to their class, because accessories have no class restrictions. And accessories also happen to be the easiest high item level gear to get.

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No that is not a fix since tanks esp need a set amount of hp and at times, depending on the situation needs the right to meet it. The best fix is outlined here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....-4.0-reminder.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I'm sorry, but it's clear you're really just not the sort of person I can have a productive conversation with.

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They need {Stoneskin}. Very much too easily 'insulted' imho.

On topic, I don't really believe having a requirement like this for leveling dungeons and trials is necessary. As has already been stated the tools to deal with this are already available and it would just be a waste of dev time and resources to try to create an absolutely stress free environment for everyone when it's not even possible. People need to learn to not get so easily stressed at these altogether rare situations and just move on with life.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

They need {Stoneskin}. Very much too easily 'insulted' imho.

On topic, I don't really believe having a requirement like this for leveling dungeons and trials is necessary. As has already been stated the tools to deal with this are already available and it would just be a waste of dev time and resources to try to create an absolutely stress free environment for everyone when it's not even possible. People need to learn to not get so easily stressed at these altogether rare situations and just move on with life.

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You know what a real waste of time was? taking chat out of PvP, that is what truly is not needed
This change however is, and you still did not address Miste on those so called tools we have.

They are not enough.
1. You get a 4 hour cooldown
2. you have a 4 hour cooldown even though you have to kick someone jsut for being offline 5+ minutes.
3. So the kick feature is not a fix/solution to this.
4. there are toxic players expecting you just deal with it and carry them because they are with a friend in a premade.
5. it takes 5 minutes of being there before you can
6:

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Originally Posted by Miste

You can vote kick people, sure, but in the end they still wasted their time and everyone elses because now you have to sit there waiting for member in progress which sometimes a long time passes and you don't get a replacement and then sometimes whole group just ends up leaving and having to requeue...so...move on with your day? Maybe or maybe you end up wasting 20-40 minutes.

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7:

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Originally Posted by Miste

Four times have gotten tanks wearing really low item level gear and wearing an i42 weapon one time <.< suffice it to say he couldn't hold hate and was getting rekt so bad the healer ends up dead from healing him and we had to vote kick...in the end we waited 10 mins for a rep tank and never got one so we all had to requeue.

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8: I find issues with people rejecting a change just because they want to abuse it themselves, be lazy and have others carry them. Enough is enough it needs to stop.

[x] signed, Hell yes.

Because THIS accompanied me in todays lvl.59 Great Gubal Library

http://imgur.com/a/YMu9C > Img Link somehow broken

http://imgur.com/a/YMu9C

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Originally Posted by Legion88

100 for Dusk Vigil +7 for every duty
107 for Thok ast Thok and Sohm Al
114 The Aery
121 for Limitless Blue
128 for The Vault
135 for Gubal

would line up pretty well with the previouse upgrade steps from ARR (+10) and ARF and its 142 (another +7 from Gubal)

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I'd probably lower that a little in regards to the vault and the library.

130 for the library is fine. You can do the library in full augmented ironworks and it's not a problem. the only class that might want to change gear a bit is the tanks cos the def boost on the 58 gear is a big jump. but the rest of the stats aren't much different between the i142 level 58 stuff and the i130 augmented iron works. you wouldn't really notice the difference between using like augmented iron works bow and the level 58 birch bow for example.

its why so many people went all the way to 60 in aug ironworks / dreadwrym because it wasn't worth worrying about gear till 60.. you level so fast anyway the time you spend getting gear you could have levelled past it anyway.

But going in with ilvl 12 in Gubal is just ridicolous.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'd probably lower that a little in regards to the vault and the library.

130 for the library is fine. You can do the library in full augmented ironworks and it's not a problem. the only class that might want to change gear a bit is the tanks cos the def boost on the 58 gear is a big jump. but the rest of the stats aren't much different between the i142 level 58 stuff and the i130 augmented iron works. you wouldn't really notice the difference between using like augmented iron works bow and the level 58 birch bow for example.

its why so many people went all the way to 60 in aug ironworks / dreadwrym because it wasn't worth worrying about gear till 60.. you level so fast anyway the time you spend getting gear you could have levelled past it anyway.

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it is a good list though but ya, i agree.
100 for Dusk Vigil +7 for every duty
107 for Thok ast Thok and Sohm Al
114 The Aery
120 for Limitless Blue
120 for The Vault
130 for Gubal

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

My question is should the Heavensward Leveling dungeons and trials have item level requirements in the future?

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No!

Why put gating on obsolete content when it didn't have when 'current'?

I looked at existing min ilvl restrictions from the endgame dungeons in comparsion with their dropping ilvl.
ARR: min ilvl is always 10 below the dropping ilvl
HW: min ilvl is always 15 below the dropping ilvl
From this perspective someone could say that the ilvl difference between the dropping and the min ilvl should slowly increase from 10 to 15 or just be in the average of 12 to 13 for every duty.
Example list for treating min ilvl like ARR/HW/12/13
110/105/108/107 for Dusk Vigil
120/115/118/117 for Sohm Al + Thok ast Thok
126/121/124/123 for The Aery
129/124/127/126 for Limitless Blue
132/127/130/129 for The Vault
138/133/136/135 for Great Gubal Library

In my personal opinion i would suggest the HW kind of ilvl difference, cause they are HW dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

No!

Why put gating on obsolete content when it didn't have when 'current'?

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Leveling is always 'current'.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

No!

Why put gating on obsolete content when it didn't have when 'current'?

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Because it should have it and NEEDS it for current!
Because the game requires you to have so much hp, so on to actually pass though it, that is why.

I'm going to revive this thread because there are a few more things I wanted to bring up. This is to complement/supplement a similar thread about one asking for item level requirements in leveling dungeons.

Before Heavensward, 4 level 50 dungeons did NOT have item level requirements. They were Castrum Meridianum, The Praetorium, The Wanderer's Palace, and Amdapor Keep. They were given item level requirements by the time the expansion came out (42 for the first 2, 45 for the latter 2).

I would have expected the Heavensward Leveling dungeons to get the same item level requirement treatment if the situation of undergeared party members got out of hand. One reason is because Snowcloak and The Keeper of the Lake are required to be cleared BEFORE one can enter the Heavensward Leveling Dungeons. Keep in mind that Snowcloak and The Keeper of the Lake have item level requirements (80 and 90 respectively).

Now that Stormblood is out and the one guaranteed gear drop per clear in a level 51-59 dungeon occurs, I wanted to see more opinions on this topic.

I once queued for Gubal Library on my 59 tank with full ironworks. I leveled it purely from leveling roulettes and for some reason it didn't cross my mind that I could be in such a scenario. Well anyway I told the party and they were nice enough to take it slow, but I still think it'd be a step in the right direction to let you que for roulettes but exclude dungeons that aren't in your ilevel range.

Of course there comes the potential exploits and loopholes that come along with that.

I agree, but it shouldnt be too strict. Like having above ilvl 100 for HW content and +230 for SB. This is perfectly manageable for any player that isnt braindead since quests give you the needed gear and vendors sell it too. Itll prevent the occasional confused Travolta that stumbles into Dusk Vigil with a ilvl 47 weapon to name an example.

Yes please, and on Stormblood leveling dungeons too. Ilvl 115 tanks in Bardam's Mettle make me cry ;_;

Yes please. Also extending it into Stormblood would be great. I don't want to see a scholar with an i90 book and ~i5 accessories in Sirensong again.
But not too strict. The earlier mention of 230 seems at least somewhat reasonable for both ends.

Absolutely.

Get synced down as a Dragoon into Haukke NM. I had more hp than the tank (ended up with aggro most of the time too).

He's wearing level 1 gear on his right side.

Every dungeon should have a minimum requirement.

I'd be down with that. Not like the gear to enter those is particularly difficult to get.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Absolutely.

Get synced down as a Dragoon into Haukke NM. I had more hp than the tank (ended up with aggro most of the time too).

He's wearing level 1 gear on his right side.

Every dungeon should have a minimum requirement.

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The Level 1 accessoires you get at the start with a new character can be used till 30 with no problem and tanks can use them even till 40.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

The Level 1 accessoires you get at the start with a new character can be used till 30 with no problem and tanks can use them even till 40.

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Please tell me why it makes sense to do that though when there are NPCs in each city that sell accessories for each role type up to level 29 that cost minuscule amounts of gil to buy?

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Originally Posted by Legion88

The Level 1 accessoires you get at the start with a new character can be used till 30 with no problem and tanks can use them even till 40.

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This makes absolutely no sense. In no other MMO would that be acceptable.

I'd be ok with this, but they'd need to boost the power of NQ leveling gear. There's a reason why people use poetics and upgraded shire so long; you can only get better from whites if you spend a large amount of money to gear in crafted HQ whites, manage to do a lot of quests and get a full set of drops from it, or run a dungeon to get the entire green set well beyond what you'd need to outstrip it. Not many people on my server make or sell HQ leveling gear except for daily GC turn ins, with the result being each piece can hover 100-200k or so.

They probably need to look at itemization altogether some, anyways.

i110 is a fair minimum for HW leveling, since MSQ provides a full set of gear leading up to HW.

After that, though, you have to take into consideration players that are purely pushing MSQ and "go back for side quests later/on alt jobs." The MSQ through HW doesn't provide full sets; much of the gear is granted through side quests. And if you raise the ilvl to that, suddenly those side quests are a near requirement. Or you expect them to know to go buy new gear, when all through ARR they've probably gotten away with never visiting a shop. Also worth keeping in mind that often players are told to hold off on gearing up since they can just get Shire or whatever at 60. They've also gone through much of ARR with long gaps between gear changes, and it's not always immediately apparent that HW changes that pacing, packing in a lot of content into fewer levels.

There's an issue. I've just rushed lvling my DRK on an alt and upon the completion of lvl60 job quest I was awarded with... Ilvl ~200-210 gear. Sure it makes sense for people who say don't own Stormblood or something but realistically just some 1k poetics would've help more. Upon completion of the lvl50 job quest, I've got i90 gear (40ilvls lower than augmented IW). Given Sirensong tuning is pretty mild i230 gear would've been acceptable. But i210 is too much of a strain.

You know this would backfire in an instant, people instead of wearing lower lvl gear according to their job/class would be wearing gear of any sort just to get into the dungeon. Aka instead of a healer wearing a ring with mnd/piety, etc they would probably just throw on a tanking based stat ring instead. Not only this but once you meet the requirements for an ilvl you can easily get in and then switch out gear and then you're back to square one. You would have to enforce a no switching gear rule, which then would affect getting gear and equipping it as you go along in said dungeon but also the wrong stat equipment would still be in affect which wouldn't help the party either way.