If a tank loses aggro, whose fault is it?

Honestly being undergeared shouldn't be an excuse.
You should be geared for the dungeon. A tank doing a level 50 dungeon shouldn't be strutting around in lvl 30 armor.. That is purely the tank's fault if undergeared. Spend the time to prepare yourself for the content.

What is a reasonable excuse is inexperience. Yet this still falls on the Tank for being at fault - however DPS should be more flexible with this situation..

Flat out sitting in Umbral Ice and only using Thunder/Thundercloud is being more than flexible.. If that's pulling hate then there is something seriously wrong..

I honestly think the OP was dealing with 2x people with broken weapons.. It's the only real explanation for it.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

What?

Aggro loss isn\\\\\\\\'t as black and white as you want it to be. If you\\\\\\\\'re overhealing, using butchers block when it would rip aggro, not using aggro mitigation cds when doing your opener etc and forcing the main tank to use powerslash/RoH more than necessary , yeah the tank won\\\\\\\\'t lose aggro and should not lose aggro, but at the same time you\\\\\\\\'re being terrible team members which is just as bad as the tank losing aggro. I and many other raiders who know their shit would call it out.

It\\\\\\\\'s one button which is on oGCD, press it ffs lol.

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The tank has one main job an that is to hold hate from the mobs, is the tanks foult for not doing his job, an why on earth are you bringing savage situation here?
Like who is doing savage an don\\'t know that? That\\'s common sense...

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Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

The tank has one main job an that is to hold hate from the mobs, is the tanks foult for not doing his job, an why on earth are you bringing savage situation here?
Like who is doing savage an don\\'t know that? That\\'s common sense...

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You're the one saying it's the tanks fault no matter the situation so I and another person on here brought up a situation where it isn't the tanks fault which just happened to be savage. Don't you even read what you post?

I'm curious, is the new tank meta not to use defense stance so they can push out a little more dps?

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I'm curious, is the new tank meta not to use defense stance so they can push out a little more dps?

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Yes but they Should rotate their cool dows to compensate for the lack of stance. Nothing in this game outside tankbusters and large pulls hits hard enough to warrant 100% tank stance usage.

Think of it like healers using their dps skills, they do it because again nothing in this game outside pvp requires them to be in healing mode 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

Yes but they Should rotate their cool dows to compensate for the lack of stance. Nothing in this game outside tankbusters and large pulls hits hard enough to warrant 100% tank stance usage.

Think of it like healers using their dps skills, they do it because again nothing in this game outside pvp requires them to be in healing mode 24/7.

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Oh well in that case then 100% the tanks fault simple because they chose to lose the 20% enmity buff for extra dps. More so in the OP story because that tank was asking dps to not do their job. Just like a healer, if they have control of the fight they feel free to add some dps but you first goal is tank all the mobs. Grit, Shield Oath, and Defiance isn't just about the def boost, it's enmity control too. I guess rotation of stance is what separates the good tanks from the bad.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I'm curious, is the new tank meta not to use defense stance so they can push out a little more dps?

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Technically speaking, the meta has always been to stance dance, being in DPS stance when not in danger and then utilizing the damage mitigation built in (PLD/DRK) or increased HP and healing incoming as well as access to other defensive cooldowns (WAR). The issue is many people forget the dancing part of stance dance and eat everything outside of the tank stance. This is fine for your raid team or people you know. This is not recommended with randoms of varying skill levels, hence there being a start to the issues.

Also, a lot of tanks apparently like to start fights in DPS stance, or do 1 enmity combo at the start and that's it. <_< I've seen so many DPS pull hate, even after using things like Quelling, Shadewalker or Smokescreen. :\ Sometimes the skill and gear difference is that great and people don't want to admit it.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

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Oh of course, in the OPs case, that tank was garbage and so was his blm friend.

A good tank would establish a good lead on aggro first before touching their dps stance, that's a no brainer, but Once hate is established they should switch to dps stance for obvious reasons.

I haven't done any dungeons at all in weeks (all I do is raid n pvp), and when I raid with my static, we want to keep the mt in dps stance as much as possible without her having to use powerslash too much to push raidwide DPS. We do this through communication and use of cooldowns + me not using BB if I'm one BB away from ripping hate. If I use butchers when I could of used storms eye instead and rip hate from MT and the boss turns around cleaving the raid killing us all, that would be my fault as the offtank.

That's one of the few situations where it's NOT the main tanks fault for aggro loss.

Wow the community in FFXIV is quite different than every other MMO out there. Everywhere else, this question has a VERY clear answer: If they DPS pulled aggro, the DPS messed up by not managing their threat. If the healer pulled aggro because DPS stands in the bad? That's DPS's fault. The only time it is the tank's fault is if the healer pulls aggro via healing the tank.

It's not a straight forward answer because there are too many variables. A healer over healing in a low level dungeon is going to make it impossible for a tank with low mana to regain aggro.

I tend to think players are more forgiving for tanks losing aggro in low level dungeons personally.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

Wow the community in FFXIV is quite different than every other MMO out there. Everywhere else, this question has a VERY clear answer: If they DPS pulled aggro, the DPS messed up by not managing their threat. If the healer pulled aggro because DPS stands in the bad? That's DPS's fault. The only time it is the tank's fault is if the healer pulls aggro via healing the tank.

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It's somewhat like that here except a lot of people have this misconception that it's ALWAYS the tanks fault no matter the situation which is false.

As AlexanderThorolund said, it's not a straight forward as that as there could be a number of factors leading to aggro loss.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

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If the healer pulls aggro from the tank because they're having to heal the DPS so much, the healer is somewhat at fault too, and the tank is. WHM will be having to Shroud long before their heals should take aggro if they're healing that hard and if the tank has built adequate hate. SCH and AST don't really build much aggro to begin with even while spamming heals.

And it's not always the tank's fault the healer pulls aggro from healing. I've met many Regen happy healers before that pop it off as soon as the tank Shield Lobs/Unmends/Tomahawks at the beginning of a large pull and repeatedly re-add it even if it's clicked off. That's a really bad thing to do if you don't want to take a few hits as a healer and annoy the tank.

I've had the situation before where I'm doing a roulette on scholar...

Tank lobs one out of a group and starts beating on it...
I'm starting my dps on that one...
Waiting for the other mobs to get tagged by the tank....
Tank's hp is dropping...
Still no aoe threat...

Fairy heals tank!
Fairy now has threat on all but one of the enemies...

>.<;;;

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Originally Posted by Adire

If the healer pulls aggro from the tank because they're having to heal the DPS so much, the healer is somewhat at fault too, and the tank is

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Seriously if this is happening the only people you can blame are the DPS. If they really need healing THAT MUCH they are quite obviously doing something VERY wrong...

Why on earth would you blame the tank and healers when the dps are clearly the ones screwing up.

What do you want the healer to do just say sod it and let them die.....? Cos then they'd just get blamed for that as well..

Blame anyone but the dps. They're never at fault...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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Please stop with the overemotional word insertions.

If you know how aggro works, you know that healers (particularly WHM since it builds so much) are given tools to manage aggro. If the healer is having to spam Medica and keep Medica II up, they're going to build massive aggro. The DPS are at fault for getting hit, yes. But if the WHM doesn't use Shroud, they're going to run out of MP quick from having to spam spells. THAT would be their fault partly, as would the resulting massive aggro not being shed from using Shroud, as they'd be showing an inadequacy of understanding how the skill works.

If the tank is watching their aggro meter, they should know it's time to start building more aggro as the WHM's aggro rises from Medica spam. If they fail to do so, that's their fault.

In an optimal situation, the DPS would not be getting hit by everything. But in a non-optimal situation, healers and tanks still have the tools to prevent the healer from taking aggro. If they don't use them, that's their faults. It's that simple.

I play WAR more than any other class these days, so I don't need you to preach to me about how nothing is ever the DPS' faults.

I always see it as the tanks fault unless others run ahead and pull mobs, which is usually an accident.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Honestly being undergeared shouldn't be an excuse.
You should be geared for the dungeon. A tank doing a level 50 dungeon shouldn't be strutting around in lvl 30 armor.. That is purely the tank's fault if undergeared. Spend the time to prepare yourself for the content.

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I just wanted to make a warning on this one, I totally know and agree with you that you get moments where the tank has some derpy freaking weapon and you know they pretty much "cheated" their ilvl to get in, but there are scenarios where I do think it's an excuse to having trouble (not complete wiping, can't finish the dungeon trouble, but "this will be bumpy, yoyo" trouble).

https://i.imgur.com/sJAxZjc.png

You could find yourself in a situation where you meet the entire average ilvl on every piece of gear meanwhile your DD is literal end game, making for a near 100+ ilvl gap (that's a big deal). Even when people are synced down the sync system is a bit friendly with how it does it.

I just wanted to say that it is possible that there is intense duress from the ilvl difference, even if the tank isn't cheating his ilvl to get in. And I don't think it's right/justified for players to expect their tanks to always exceed gear standards. In my experience this only matters when the DD actually try though, when I came back a lot of times it was still easy peazy do whatever. But I had a situation with a BLM and a MNK who were doing every little bit they could to be excellent but their aggro was on the literal wall to stealing it.

Like for perspective, I met the ilvl on every item no accuracy issue, I was using my rage of halone combo with shield oath on and the monk was STILL moments away from stealing aggro - at one point when the boss mechanic required me to run away from him (to dodge damage) the Monk was still able to keep attacking and they took aggro (it didn't really matter because I provoked when the monster finished it's attacks before it could attack the monk, but still - a tank using all the aggro tools, the big boy tools, and still losing aggro).

Tanking is super easy when everyone is similar, you're miles ahead of everyone for the entire fight - EX, coil, whatever, but when you get totally legitimate gear that gets you into the dungeon and other players who are good AND maxing their gear - it is possible that "gear" is going to be an issue. Where again I don't think it's fair to say "well as a tank you shouldn't queue for content if you're not maxing every dungeon" there are not enough tanks already lol.

Tanks should still be able to prevent the party from dying in these situations, but this is the most challenging moment of actually being a tank I've seen in the the game - I've only done the first 5 coils when they were current/non nerfed content, but this ilvl difference was still the hardest (mechanics ofc are harder in those areas, but to be a "tank" was the ilvl moments). I believe this is actually an issue SE needs to look at, even though probably only 10% of the issues people have with tanks is due to this - mostly are probably to tanks not using their flash or getting cocky with their damage rotation - or using an ilvl 30 weapon in a level 58 dungeon haha. (Not saying there are not moments where you said, they totally are and probably more than this ilvl issue I'm mentioning, but that there is a small % where ilvl is a significant challenge, if you're learning or new and you have this new challenge.. expect things to be bumpy~).

It depends. If you were AoEing before the tank had a chance to gather mobs, then it's your fault. But if you were pulling them off the tank after they had already gathered the mobs, then it's the tank's fault.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

Wow the community in FFXIV is quite different than every other MMO out there. Everywhere else, this question has a VERY clear answer: If they DPS pulled aggro, the DPS messed up by not managing their threat. If the healer pulled aggro because DPS stands in the bad? That's DPS's fault. The only time it is the tank's fault is if the healer pulls aggro via healing the tank.

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"Managing their threat"?

This game has no method of managing threat outside of what, three skills?

Also, that would apply if it wasn't so pathetically easy to hold aggro in this game. I played tank for most of 2.0 and you could literally look away from pulls in dungeons, I doubt it's really changed that much. Most DPS can only "manage" threat by not doing damage. If a DPS has to stop doing damage because their tank can't hold hate, then it is 100% the tank's fault. If a DPS is doing too much damage for a tank to keep their hate up, they clearly outgear the tank too vastly or the tank is clearly not generating enough hate. There is no "management."

The answer from the community is so different because this game works differently.