Charging for runs.

I thought the selling of content clear was discussed at one point. It equals an in game service and unless they violate the terms agreed upon it is ok. So if we agree you get 1 million xp for X amount of gil I take gil and stop at 800k because I am sick of looking at you. Report and GMs will act. But if you get 1mill xp then we are equal. Thought this was discussed with casinos /randoms as well.

It is truly no different then paying some one to go collect branches or craft gear. It is a agreed upon commitment for gil. The violation is if people try to get real world money.

Side note some of the anger might not be two dps. But that samurai ended being dps and not tank. If it had been rdm and almost any other as dps might not have been the same outrage.

Why would I pay for runs leveling one of those two? I have FATES, Leves, POTD, and FC mates to do dungeons with. If someone moronically pays you to do a run, with them well good on you for making a profit off a poor soul.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

I thought the selling of content clear was discussed at one point. It equals an in game service and unless they violate the terms agreed upon it is ok. So if we agree you get 1 million xp for X amount of gil I take gil and stop at 800k because I am sick of looking at you. Report and GMs will act. But if you get 1mill xp then we are equal. Thought this was discussed with casinos /randoms as well.

It is truly no different then paying some one to go collect branches or craft gear. It is a agreed upon commitment for gil. The violation is if people try to get real world money.

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Yep. It will always be controversial, however.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

To be fair, high end guilds doing it doesn't mean it's not technically against the rules if it's in there somewhere. It's not hard to find violations of the naming rules, for example. The wording within the rules is even that they may do things about it not that they will.

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Nope not against the rules because it constitutes a fair compensation for commitment of time and skill. The only time its against the ToS is if the sellers take the gil and do NOT provide the service, or conversely, the buyer refuses to pay gil. In both situations the party which does not honor the agreement will be punished.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yep. It will always be controversial, however.

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Only because there are an inordinate amount of people on this thread who seem to think its OK to be entitled to someone else's time, skill and effort. If the service is given pro-bono then its the prerogative of the person providing, amount of shaming or moral high ground can change that.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yep. It will always be controversial, however.

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Controversial is different from against the rules. We see when crafters sell new gear for multi millions how mad the forums get. As long as people can tell the difference between dislike and wrong.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

AST is a bongofest

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LOL! I love, and am keeping this, forever!!

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

But for now, I think it's best for everyone involved to take a "wait and see" approach, if only to stem some of the endless flailing and histrionics that are dominating the OF right now.

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Lol It's been this way since beta. It's never going to stop.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

snip.

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If someone you don't know approached you and asked you to gather 20 stacks of granite, would you ask them how much are they willing to pay, or would you silently go and spend 3 hours gathering granite because the thought of paying for a service seems immoral?

Do you consider it immoral if a player spends 1 hour doing melds for another player and gets a tip for the time spent?

Do you consider it immoral when an NPC asks you to help kill some aldgoats and pays you with a necklace?

To answer your statements about the WoL, side quests are canon, you do work for pay just like any other adventurer.

I also hope you have never ever sold anything in the marketboard and charging even one single gil above the cost of mats, because according to you that would be immoral.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

As for balance.... I will believe it when I see it. I think there is fundamental issues with how they seem to be thinking about balance. In the current meta, the only way to make PLD or DRK competitive with a WAR as an off tank will end up leading to Job Homogenisation with none of the tanks having any particular strengths.

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Nail on the head! Exactly my point. Let's say Samurai was Tank like (some) people wanted. Then what, you have SAM/WAR locked, with PLD/DRK both dead for an expansion? It'd be nice for those interested, but then you'd do more damage to the tanking community than good. All in all, the lesser of two evils happened.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

If someone you don't know approached you and asked you to gather 20 stacks of granite, would you ask them how much are they willing to pay, or would you silently go and spend 3 hours gathering granite because the thought of paying for a service seems immoral?

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That is totally different cause they are approaching you, not the other way around. Cause most people will either ask their friends or FC members for help before asking some random stranger, that not adversting their service to begin with.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Nope not against the rules because it constitutes a fair compensation for commitment of time and skill. The only time its against the ToS is if the sellers take the gil and do NOT provide the service, or conversely, the buyer refuses to pay gil. In both situations the party which does not honor the agreement will be punished.

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I'm well aware, was just making the point that "it goes unpunished" isn't the best argument when compared to "there is no rule to punish over", given that at the time the claim that it was a violation had yet to be deleted. That and ToSs sometimes have things in odd places so giving the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Nail on the head! Exactly my point. Let's say Samurai was Tank like (some) people wanted. Then what, you have SAM/WAR locked, with PLD/DRK both dead for an expansion? It'd be nice for those interested, but then you'd do more damage to the tanking community than good. All in all, the lesser of two evils happened.

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Simple. If SAM is a dps style tank like WAR, make WAR and SAM noticeably worse MTing. Make it so they cant use defensive CDs in DPS stance or offensive CDs in Tanking stance. This way while they are capable of MTing, their dps is noticeably weaker when being hit by the boss and switching to DPS stance is inherently risky since while in DPS stance they lose all access to mitigation. It means you usually wont want a PLD or DRK in an OT position but on the flipside you won't want a WAR or SAM in the MT. Thus you only really need to balance WAR vs SAM and PLD vs DRK.

On of the biggest issues with balancing tanks and healers is that people don't seem to get that there are two types of both classes. Each role has two sub roles. SCH doesn't compete with WHM because SCH cant fill WHM's role. You will never lose your WHM role to a SCH. This is why its such a mess. They are trying to balance 3 jobs for to different roles while leaving them with unique strengths and weaknesses. That isn't ever going to work.

This is why I am sceptical. You cant balance all the tanks and healers perfectly with each other and keep them unique. You either have them become pretty much the same but with different themes or you specialise them. You cant do both.

I'm gonna offer to run SAMs and RDMs for free every time i see someone trying to sell a queue.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I'm gonna offer to run SAMs and RDMs for free every time i see someone trying to sell a queue.

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I there is a tank/healer shortage I think this would likely have very little impact on the run sellers business.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I there is a tank/healer shortage I think this would likely have very little impact on the run sellers business.

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It will when all those SAMs and RDMs start spreading the word on free tank queues :P

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Originally Posted by Lexia

That is totally different cause they are approaching you, not the other way around. Cause most people will either ask their friends or FC members for help before asking some random stranger, that not adversting their service to begin with.

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I don't see how it's different, but for the sake of this discussion let's say it's the other way around, a gatherer in PF seeking orders, is that immoral and exploitative?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

It will when all those SAMs and RDMs start spreading the word on free tank queues :P

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One of each, no queue, two of each one of each has an effective queue of 15-20 minutes maybe more, and so on. One free tank won't help much.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I'm gonna offer to run SAMs and RDMs for free every time i see someone trying to sell a queue.

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That's your prerogative.

But I doubt it will make too much of an impact since you're only one person that can't stay available 24/7. Compared to the sudden spike in demand for tanks once the expansion hits, one person giving their services for free because of spite is just a drop in the bucket.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

That's your prerogative.

But I doubt it will make too much of an impact since you're only one person that can't stay available 24/7. Compared to the sudden spike in demand for tanks once the expansion hits, one person giving their services for free because of spite is just a drop in the bucket.

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Better than people keeping out of the DF and only selling runs out of spite of no new tank as some have admitted to in this thread.

Shoot, I'll join in on it too. Most of the folks in my FC rock a tank, I'll see if they'd be willing too.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Compared to people keeping out of the DF and only selling runs out of spite of no new tank as some have admitted to in this thread?

Shoot, I'll join in on it too. Most of the folks in my FC rock a tank, I'll see if they'd be willing too.

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I'm referring to the spike in demand for tanks (and healers) because the inevitable wave of players trying out the new classes. The people who are spitefully avoiding DF to charge money because they're upset about the classes is also likely to be extremely small compared to the new demand for tanks and healers.

The only way people are going to be willing to sell queues as tank or healer is if there is a market for it. If the queue times hit ungodly levels, there will be some people willing to spend Gil to make it go faster. And players like making Gil.

True it will not be a significant impact, but every bit helps and I just think its better than trying to take advantage of people just wanting to enjoy a new job. I'll not hide that it's a slight against the sellers. People can be inspired to join in when goodwill is offered. And I'd prefer not to see something so low as selling a dungeon run in the PF. Something good comes out of it in the long run.

It'll also help as I can see them in action and get some opinions before I decide trying them out myself.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

I just think its better than trying to take advantage of people just wanting to enjoy a new job.

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This is the problem.

Because a dungeon takes 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps. It's impossible for everyone to enjoy the new jobs at launch. The number of players who will be willingly playing tank and healer when these new jobs are dancing in front of them will drop for a while after launch. Yes, there will be players that queue as tank purely out of the goodness of their heart for complete strangers. But many players are still driven towards self-benefiting rewards, and instant tank queue only goes so far.

So some players, instead of playing the shiny new jobs, are instead going to play a job that they wouldn't otherwise for the sake of making Gil. You scorn them, but I believe these players would likely just not tank if they were not selling their queue. To ask them to queue as tank for no additional reward, when they would rather do something else, is asking them to take a bullet for the sake of your own desires.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

Dots

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You offer a fair point, they could be going out of their way and you might consider the gil a fair compensation. I still can't help but see it as taking advantage of a situation nobody wanted to be in. And were it tanks already at 70 that'd be something, but people leveling tanks and healers alongside also doing this will just make things worse.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

You offer a fair point, they could be going out of their way and you might consider the gil a fair compensation. I still can't help but see it as taking advantage of a situation nobody wanted to be in. And were it tanks already at 70 that'd be something, but people leveling tanks and healers alongside also doing this will just make things worse.

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People levelling tanks and healers aren't going to have much motivation to run levelling dungeons multiple times unless the MSQ quest exp is stingy. Its not like the first time through they are going to be spamming dungeons to level the first time through. The second time through they will probably have switched to levelling their dps alts. Look at the thread asking if any tanks or healers are going to switch and a lot are saying 'Tank/Healer first, then my dps alt'.

What motivation do Tanks and Healers have to queue more than necessary the first time through beyond either helping a friend or getting warm fuzzy feeling for making some random dps's queue time shorter?

And this is where ill pee off any tanks wanting to take advantage of others cause if I see any tanks charging for said run ill offer to do the run for free. Screw you guys for being greedy we alrdy get paid alot more gil than a dps for dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

And this is where ill pee off any tanks wanting to take advantage of others cause if I see any tanks charging for said run ill offer to do the run for free. Screw you guys for being greedy we alrdy get paid alot more gil than a dps for dungeons.

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As said before, even if you do that, it will probably have very little impact in the amount a charging tank will make. Unless there is a massive number of tanks doing free runs all day to counter the queues the market will remain.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

As said before, even if you do that, it will probably have very little impact in the amount a charging tank will make. Unless there is a massive number of tanks doing free runs all day to counter the queues the market will remain.

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Well people could always refuse to pay tanks for dungeon runs this amount of greed shoulndt be encouraged luckily there are many other forms of levelling availible to people in this game.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

True it will not be a significant impact, but every bit helps and I just think its better than trying to take advantage of people just wanting to enjoy a new job. I'll not hide that it's a slight against the sellers. People can be inspired to join in when goodwill is offered. And I'd prefer not to see something so low as selling a dungeon run in the PF. Something good comes out of it in the long run.

It'll also help as I can see them in action and get some opinions before I decide trying them out myself.

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I will sell runs to dps. The healerr is free.
I do it becouse so much of thecdps on thjis forums have the mentality of , no neex tanks fucxk them. So if they think like this oi show them on what lbl of need they are.
100k for dps is what i will take.

Do it. No preoblems at all.

Greed??
So selling crafts for 10m or even 1m isoik but asking 10k-100k for a msq dungeon is wrong?

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

You offer a fair point, they could be going out of their way and you might consider the gil a fair compensation. I still can't help but see it as taking advantage of a situation nobody wanted to be in. And were it tanks already at 70 that'd be something, but people leveling tanks and healers alongside also doing this will just make things worse.

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I think you forget something, we (tank and healer) do not get any new jobs (considering some of us are allergic to DPS) meaning while you DPS gets to enjoy a new system, we on the other hand, won't at least for next expansion.
Not saying we won't have fun, but while DPS are exoted by the new possibility they get, we know nothing will change for us so....making a few gils is a little compensation IMO

See it as a "reason" to connect everyday knowing we'll keep doing the same things we've done for the past 2 years ^^"
For you it will be all new gameplay, for us....

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

Greed??
So selling crafts for 10m or even 1m isoik but asking 10k-100k for a msq dungeon is wrong?

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My lazy and "stingy" (not sure of the word) Lala agrees with that statement ^^"

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Well people could always refuse to pay tanks for dungeon runs this amount of greed shoulndt be encouraged luckily there are many other forms of levelling availible to people in this game.

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Still going to have to do MSQ dungeons eventually unless your planning not to do the MSQ as a dps.

Honestly I don't think any tank being turned down will be that bothered. The dps is the one who is going to have to wait in long queues. The tank or healer will be in any dungeon they need almost instantly.

Welp what a nice community we have. :) And seeing how some called themselves carebears and are now wanting to sell that too. Thankfully I have good friends and one is a great tank.
The only legitimate reason to say that this is like crafting is, when people will go towards you and ask you if you want to tank a dungeon for them that you dont even want to run. But if you plan to take Gil for a dungeon you would run anyway..well you can try and probably will find someone but it makes you look greedy in my eyes.

Hmm time to make a deal as a DD too. If you want to have great DPS from me please pay. I mean I am only obligated to DPS at all, not how much right? /Joke

(Oh you also wont hurt SE with such actions, the only ones that you will punish with those are people without friends that had nothing to do with the jobs we get. Heck maybe some might even say that they find the community really toxic and will leave the game behind.)

Do whatever you want, just dont argue about it like its good for the community or something. And also dont forget that not every DD will have an interest in the new jobs so they also dont get new things..

but what if rdm or sam get utilitis that help tanks or healers jobs get easier? It might actually be a win for all the roles. That dps joke was hillarious too, but I still find nothing wrong with charging for runs. if the sell is reasonable even i might consider it.

It's not some war between the trinity. If people are willing to pay for a service, and those that can provide it find the price acceptable, then there will be a market.

If no one is willing to pay, there will be no market. It really is that simple.

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Originally Posted by Nghthawk

I will prob just toss the dungeon into PF with a statement "Tipping is optional", or may invite people in the zone that are at that stage as well or que solo. Hope the tanks have a healer in their back pocket or they to might have a wait in que as well.

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Easy... get a healer from your fc willing to do merc runs. Now you two are duos, splitting the proft 50:50

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Originally Posted by Celef

I think you forget something, we (tank and healer) do not get any new jobs (considering some of us are allergic to DPS) meaning while you DPS gets to enjoy a new system, we on the other hand, won't at least for next expansion.
Not saying we won't have fun, but while DPS are exoted by the new possibility they get, we know nothing will change for us so....making a few gils is a little compensation IMO

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Hold on now.

While I believe it to be fine for players to try and sell queues as their tank or healer, you make it sound like each character is stuck to one role of the trinity. Characters that only have a high lvl DPS still have the capability to play and level a tank or healer, and the other two roles have similar choices. This isn't WoW, where your character may be stuck with only certain roles.

A small argument may be made that people with a high level DPS job have a possibility of sharing more gear with other DPS jobs, but that's pretty trivial when you consider that it's very easy to get decent gear for the MSQ.

No, it's not just the DPS-centered players getting a new job, everybody is getting two more dps jobs they may play as.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Welp what a nice community we have. :) And seeing how some called themselves carebears and are now wanting to sell that too. Thankfully I have good friends and one is a great tank.
The only legitimate reason to say that this is like crafting is, when people will go towards you and ask you if you want to tank a dungeon for them that you dont even want to run. But if you plan to take Gil for a dungeon you would run anyway..well you can try and probably will find someone but it makes you look greedy in my eyes.

Hmm time to make a deal as a DD too. If you want to have great DPS from me please pay. I mean I am only obligated to DPS at all, not how much right? /Joke

(Oh you also wont hurt SE with such actions, the only ones that you will punish with those are people without friends that had nothing to do with the jobs we get. Heck maybe some might even say that they find the community really toxic and will leave the game behind.)

Do whatever you want, just dont argue about it like its good for the community or something. And also dont forget that not every DD will have an interest in the new jobs so they also dont get new things..

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I'm going to be running dungeons for my FC and probably no one else because really I will probably have very little reason to. If I was going to join in on the who selling runs thing it would only be for dungeon runs I wouldn't be doing otherwise.

I don't think this is an issue and frankly I don't think there is any reason for people to be offended by it. Its not like tanks or healers which chose to sell runs are forcing you to pay them. You can just wait the queue out or find a friend or FC member to run with. People doing the MSQ as a tank or healer really won't be having many reasons to repeatedly run the levelling dungeons. Most of their EXP will be coming from the MSQ quests.

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Originally Posted by Freerider

So with samurai and red mage coming how reasonable would charging gil to level those dps through content as a tank be? Is there any rules against that specifically is what I'm asking because if not I dusting off my heavy armor for stormblood.

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Its basicly the same as getting paid gil to carry someone and help them clear a EX trial or Raid and I have never seen SE say anything bad about it. Its a free market, charge how much you want and if they agree, they will pay otherwise discuss about a price.

I am greedy tnx ;)
As for ask for payment for runs as dps go and do it.
I cant hurt se like this i know its not to hurt anyone but to fell my greed when i can.
Dos will have fun playing new job i will have fun taking gil from them:)