[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I'm not implying we shouldn't have requirements for entry into various duties. We have that right now.

But let's use your example here, even though I think your weights are a little off based on the actual value of individual pieces of gear.

I used all those numbers and switched the weapon to i90. It gave me a result of: 214

So you'd be ok with someone carrying around an i90 weapon in, say... Weeping City? That'd be ok? I suspect it would not be ok and the same people in this thread who think that averaging item levels to figure out a basic gear level doesn't work would be saying the same thing.

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair. There isn't always an algorithmic way around everything. The BLM referenced in the OP is probably just making an absentminded mistake. But even if he was trying to be a troll and use a broom to kill A9, you're not going to stop him like this. People who want to waste your time are going to find a way to do it and all you're doing is creating roadblocks that both don't need to exist AND won't solve your problem.

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Well it is a work in progress, and more of an experiment to see if we can come up with an algorithmic way. Going with this:

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Originally Posted by Elixirboy

For jobs without an offhand, the main hand counts twice. iLvl calculation is always X/13

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I did not know that and thanks for the post. If we bring this idea to my weights, mh/oh would be 10/10 while mh/ no ability for offhand would be x20

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

SE really should put a minimum gear piece iLVL requirement in too, average just doesn't work as well as it's intended. It doesn't have to be crazy but 20-30 iLVLs should be fine imo. You should not be doing creator with a ravana weapon, you are just lazy.

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Saying you need all slots be at least 180 to enter Weeping City should not be a stretch while needing the 205. There is plenty of damage that you can't avoid and asking for 1 shot if you are not geared well enough. It is more not fair to stress healers because people don't gear right, then making gear requirements that may seem a bit too strict. You can get 235 gear while using 150 gear, there should be no excuse to be so under geared in this time and age.

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

The issue comes into play with how stats weigh into your overall strength. And sadly WD is the highest weighed stat in the game in regards to how it affects you characters potency, it is a considerable detriment to your own damage (and by consequence the party's damage) when you enter something like a lvl 60 raid with a weapon that is ilvl 130.

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1) It's Duty Finder
2) Being a coder myself, if it isn't broken and not going to provide immense benefit to all users then why risk breaking what is currently working? This seems to be a very narrow range of influence, and it doesn't seem the risk is worth the reward.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair.

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Would it really be "horribly unfair" to just check the stats directly instead of going over the proxy of item level?

I mean, when we set requirements, we don't really care about item level, item level is merely a proxy for the relevant stats behind item level, which are Weapon Damage, Main Stat and Defense. All we need to do is to check those directly, multiply them by the job specific factor (since different jobs have different absolute values) to make them comparable and then use that as minimum requirements.

I mean, that doesn't stop people from equipping worse gear if they overgear a content - but regardless of what you do, you can't fall below the minimum stats. So the BLM in this case would see a red:"Weapon Damage" warning and go:"Oh! Right, I forgot to switch." Using accessories of another job wouldn't affect the requirements anymore, so that's out as well. And I wouldn't have to get a stroke because the vault-geared tank I'm supposed to heal through Mhach followed an old guide and boosted his iLvL with crafted i250 STR accessories to become the squishiest member in the party >_> (Minor hyperbole - I think the casters were still squishier. But gee, that one was a ride!)

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Fact of the matter is this was probably just an absentminded mistake by the player in question and not something they were doing maliciously.

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Fact of the matter is that has nothing to do with what I am pointing out. I am questioning the DF system design, not the player's intentions. In the end I don't care what his intentions were or not (it he did it on purpose it is pretty sad, but what can I really do about it besides offer this suggestion?) only that the game let it happen and I think it is a design flaw.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

You also cleared the fight so it couldn't have had THAT much of an impact on you. Had you wiped due to failing a dps check

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Originally Posted by odintius

I see it a different way if you're able too clear it at a decent pace still with a blm using that weapon and have decent gear it shows to me dungeon are really just that simple. It would have been more fun to see if a healer was doing this however, but if blm was using 230+ maybe shave off a couple minutes.

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Originally Posted by Renius

It requires AVERAGE ilvl not actual. And at the end of the day who cares that is the easiest of the Alex runs let the guy have his fun. As long as it did not hinder your enjoyment or cause a wipe let them be.

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Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate for the duty.

The duty in question was an in progress queue at 32m for Eyes of Creator. 32m? They wiped. Possibly more than once even.

People eventually ditched and I got in progress on healer with half the party missing, but since I am patient I waited for it to fill and I don't usually scrutinize people's gear for no reason either. They definitely wiped just some people got replaced and got people able to carry his low DPS including me since I had to DPS Faust on healer because we almost wiped and also DPS the adds too so we wouldn't wipe.

There were plenty of red flags during the run to make me realize something was wrong.

Faust almost wiped us because it wasn't dying nearly fast enough. So I had to help DPS on healer otherwise we would have wiped right there.

After Faust died we had 6 power generator add sets we had to kill before we were able to kill the boss.

To give you some idea of how abnormal that is even on week one of release of A9N average groups were only getting 3 power generator add sets after Faust died before killing main boss. As of right now the average group in A9N only gets 1-2 power generator add sets.

(Note: for clarification every time I mentioned Faust here I meant the one IN the boss fight, not the trash one before the main boss room.)

So I wasn't personally there for the wipes, but I am 99.9% sure they happened considering the large amount of time lapsed in the duty when I joined in progress.

Again I must reiterate that the speed of the run I have zero issue with. I really don't care that it took 4 minutes longer than usual or that I swear we almost hit enrage (if there is one). The thing I am pointing out is that this is badly designed.

With how SE designed gear in this game the Weapons are just too important to have someone doing level 60 end game content with a level 50 i110 weapon. Simple fact is they cannot do their role properly like that. DPS will do extremely gimped damage, healers will have extremely gimped heals, tanks will have less HP and be unable to hold aggro.

This game works like this: no matter how much skill or knowledge you have if your gear is massively inappropriate for the content you cannot do your role properly. Since weapon is so important a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 avg i230 content is massively inappropriate.

Just for some more information on why this is true. I just used a level 50 i110 Staff (Laevateinn) on my BLM and tried to complete the SSS for Alexander Creator and I was unable to kill the dummy. I failed the SSS even though I only changed my weapon to i110. My damage was cut by roughly 50% just because I changed my staff from an i260 one to an i110. It actually even surprised ME that it was that much worse! I knew it was bad but even I underestimated how bad.

Rest of my gear was 7 i270 pieces, 2 i260 pieces, and 2 i250 pieces. My avg item level was i240 with the i110 staff on with the rest of my gear (still failed even tho my avg item level is 10 levels higher than minimum for Alex Creator normal all because of my weapon). For comparison my normal item level with my proper staff is i265.

So, yeah, I am not claiming to be best BLM. I'm not perfect or the best, but I am a competent one (cleared A11S and A12S SSS dummies) and if even a competent one can fail the SSS DPS check with an i110 weapon? Not good.

On second view, I can tell that we can put bad gear in same league of bad playing, so if the player we got is ungeared or geared but with abysmal use of the class, it is same thing, so no need to add more automatic checks than the average ilevel.

ALL DFS from Sastasha to salvage needs better gear checks and a better system. I seen it lots of times and yes it is a bigger issue then people seem to make it out to be, where people where too undergeared, it made it too difficult to clear the place. I should not be at the point of stressing to carry just because someone is lazy/does not know,how important gear is because the DF allows them to queue for it. It is ridiculous I can find people in level 50 dfs with a level 45 NQ weapon (places you need be around gear level 70 ish) Seeing someone use a 170 ish weapon as a healer in weeping (I solo healed that fyi) and having level 1-5 gear tank for sastasha because it is " just sastasha" and does not matter. It did end up mattering so yeah we need better guidelines for DF entry. Just because I can carry it, does not mean I should be, and stressing over it.

Asking for level 10 average for sastasha is not much, asking to have at least a level 60 weapon for low end 50 content, 80-90 weapon for upper level 50 content should not be asking much, you can easily get dirt cheap 110 weapons from the market board and 120 tome weapon. People do this because they think they can get away with it because the game allows them, and mot cases they are correct because most cases people can carry them, but there are going to be cases where you simply can't and this shouldn't be allowed to begin with. We shouldn't have to carry people to this degree because people do not know because the system allows them to.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Fact of the matter is that has nothing to do with what I am pointing out. I am questioning the DF system design, not the player's intentions. In the end I don't care what his intentions were or not (it he did it on purpose it is pretty sad, but what can I really do about it besides offer this suggestion?) only that the game let it happen and I think it is a design flaw.







Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate for the duty.

The duty in question was an in progress queue at 32m for Eyes of Creator. 32m? They wiped. Possibly more than once even.

People eventually ditched and I got in progress on healer with half the party missing, but since I am patient I waited for it to fill and I don't usually scrutinize people's gear for no reason either. They definitely wiped just some people got replaced and got people able to carry his low DPS including me since I had to DPS Faust on healer because we almost wiped and also DPS the adds too so we wouldn't wipe.

There were plenty of red flags during the run to make me realize something was wrong.

Faust almost wiped us because it wasn't dying nearly fast enough. So I had to help DPS on healer otherwise we would have wiped right there.

After Faust died we had 6 power generator add sets we had to kill before we were able to kill the boss.

To give you some idea of how abnormal that is even on week one of release of A9N average groups were only getting 3 power generator add sets after Faust died before killing main boss. As of right now the average group in A9N only gets 1-2 power generator add sets.

(Note: for clarification every time I mentioned Faust here I meant the one IN the boss fight, not the trash one before the main boss room.)

So I wasn't personally there for the wipes, but I am 99.9% sure they happened considering the large amount of time lapsed in the duty when I joined in progress.

Again I must reiterate that the speed of the run I have zero issue with. I really don't care that it took 4 minutes longer than usual or that I swear we almost hit enrage (if there is one). The thing I am pointing out is that this is badly designed.

With how SE designed gear in this game the Weapons are just too important to have someone doing level 60 end game content with a level 50 i110 weapon. Simple fact is they cannot do their role properly like that. DPS will do extremely gimped damage, healers will have extremely gimped heals, tanks will have less HP and be unable to hold aggro.

This game works like this: no matter how much skill or knowledge you have if your gear is massively inappropriate for the content you cannot do your role properly. Since weapon is so important a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 avg i230 content is massively inappropriate.

Just for some more information on why this is true. I just used a level 50 i110 Staff (Laevateinn) on my BLM and tried to complete the SSS for Alexander Creator and I was unable to kill the dummy. I failed the SSS even though I only changed my weapon to i110. My damage was cut by roughly 50% just because I changed my staff from an i260 one to an i110. It actually even surprised ME that it was that much worse! I knew it was bad but even I underestimated how bad.

Rest of my gear was 7 i270 pieces, 2 i260 pieces, and 2 i250 pieces. My avg item level was i240 with the i110 staff on with the rest of my gear (still failed even tho my avg item level is 10 levels higher than minimum for Alex Creator normal all because of my weapon). For comparison my normal item level with my proper staff is i265.

So, yeah, I am not claiming to be best BLM. I'm not perfect or the best, but I am a competent one (cleared A11S and A12S SSS dummies) and if even a competent one can fail the SSS DPS check with an i110 weapon? Not good.

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That is really insane, and ya I wouldn't expect people defending this either. It is a bigger problem then some people make it to be just because they can be carried though it. Well I am tried of it and this thread reminded me of that fact. The game needs stricter guidelines then the current because people do not care/ do not know better.

[QUOTE=Miste;4044826]Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 content no matter if we "cleared" or not. Whether we cleared or not I have no issue with. My issue is finding this loophole in the DF system where someone can use a weapon extremely inappropriate./QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to defend it just point out in dungeons that we currently have know is a joke especially when over geared for it the ilvl entry point is also a joke IMO. So yes I would like a change with current gear to match the newer content when released give people a reason to gear up better not have ilvls like 30+ lvl below when I'm ilvl 255+...

[QUOTE=Miste;4044826]Also since so many people are stuck on "you cleared and didn't wipe" I will provide more information that I had thought wasn't necessary because I didn't see how someone could possibly defend using./QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to defend it just point out in dungeons that we currently have know is a joke especially when over geared for it the ilvl entry point for current dungeons is also a joke IMO. So yes I would like a change with current gear to match the newer content when released give people a reason to gear up better not have ilvls like 30 or more lvl below when I'm ilvl 255+.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, this is completely different...in fact, it's the exact opposite. Would you hire someone having all the necessary skills/knowledge to perform the job but not dressed to look the part ?

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Okay, let's play that game. I'm gonna adapt what you just said to the game itself:
Would you stay in a party with someone who's effectively geared up to an above average degree, but cannot perform their job or rotations properly? Or would you take the guy that's maybe a bit below average gear level but can perform his job/rotations very well?

Simply put, are you implying gear = skill? Because we all know that's just not true.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

1) It's Duty Finder

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No. NO. NO. That mentality is a large part of the problem itself, and a terrible mindset to have. Savage raid or guildhest; if you're going to be part of a team, come prepared, do your part to the fullest. "It's just duty finder" is the reason why performance and expectations are so low. People expect the worst, so they give their worst. Imagine if the opposite were true; we'd all have better experiences in the DF.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm sorry, I gotta shut this down right away.

There is nothing elitist about expecting someone to be properly prepared for content, and in a sensible manner.
Would you hire someone who came to an interview dressed to look the part, but lacking the skills/necessary knowledge to perform the job they're aiming for? If no, this is no different.

Fact is, even with all that gear, that weapon guaranteed he dealt damage well under par (also meaning that someone else had to perhaps do more to make up for it).

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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fs

Even if it's sarcasm, I standby my statement.

Let it not be misinterpreted (as it so often is around here anyways).

Step 1. Notice this. "Yo, do you have a weapon that isn't trash you can use plus?"

Step 2a. "Yes." Equipped, carry on.

Step 2b. "I um don't have one." Vote kick has been commenced.

Problem solved

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Would you stay in a party with someone who's effectively geared up to an above average degree, but cannot perform their job or rotations properly? Or would you take the guy that's maybe a bit below average gear level but can perform his job/rotations very well?

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The guy with below average gear (i.e., not properly "dressed")

But, I admit that I didn't expect such a huge gap of damage output against SSS while still staying above the required ilvl. But, for me, the problem should that weapon is too much important compared to other pieces.

It would be a fun experiment so test how low your weapon can get before you'd fail SSS, for the same average ilvl.

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Originally Posted by QuinRaines

Step 2b. "I um don't have one."

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Step 3: Wait for 15 minutes
Step 4:

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Originally Posted by QuinRaines

Vote kick has been commenced.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If someone sits at the beginning of the duty, will you go through it knowing that the person won't participate, get the clear and come here complaining ?

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No, but it's far easier to notice someone actively sitting compared to them having a massively inferior weapon. Nonetheless, the post I quoted defending the person on the basis of "you cleared." Thus, my response.

Seeing Miste did an actual test on just how significant a DPS loss having a weapon that weak is. Why shouldn't she bring attention to an obvious loophole? It's no different than people being allowed to queue into 60 content on classes. Just because you can doesn't me it isn't a flaw in the system design.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Seeing Miste did an actual test on just how significant a DPS loss having a weapon that weak is. Why shouldn't she bring attention to an obvious loophole?

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Bringing attention to a loophole is a thing. Stating a solution for that loophole is another. And frankly, I still think the problem here is that the weapon is too important. For example, we all know that accessories cost less tome than little pieces or armor, which in turn cost less that big pieces. It's because accessories give the least stat and big armors give the most.

But, with such a huge emphasis put on weapons, we could end in situation where upgrading several pieces of armor would give you less DPS than the weapon alone, even tough the weapon is clearly "cheaper".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Bringing attention to a loophole is a thing. Stating a solution for that loophole is another.

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Well, to be fair, I never said any of my ideas were perfect solutions that had to be heeded and in my first post I asked what other people's thoughts are as well.

I mean general discussion forum means to discuss general things so my topic was not only to get Dev attention about this but also to discuss the issue and possibly come up with solution ideas.

I found a problem so I pointed out the problem, but getting a discussion going by bouncing solution ideas off of the community will also get more people posting their ideas as well so we can, you know, work together to find solutions that would be good and to do what the forum is there for. Discuss.

So yeah I am unsure about what your issue is with people stating solution ideas. It does no harm and really doesn't seem like a bad thing to discuss with the community in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So yeah I am unsure about what your issue is with people stating solution ideas.

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I have no issue with people "stating solution ideas". I just think that your solution to keep focusing on the importance of weapon (i.e forcing a higher ilvl for the weapon) is more problematic than homogenizing the value of all equipped items.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I have no issue with people "stating solution ideas". I just think that your solution to keep focusing on the importance of weapon (i.e forcing a higher ilvl for the weapon) is more problematic than homogenizing the value of all equipped items.

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Well the equipment system in place now was the one SE originally created and implemented at 2.0 launch.

It is way more work for SE to overhaul the entire equipment system than to just add a few extra DF queue requirements to their code.

Your idea: Overhaul of entire item level and equipment system. Have to modify every piece of gear currently in the game. Have to adjust equipment obtainment methods due to homogenization. Have redo mathematical calculations for the gear stats and weights.

My idea: Add a few more DF requirements that the game checks before allowing people to queue. So just some coding; that's all.

Example: Add a DF check that specifically looks at the weapon slot and makes sure the weapon equipped is not massively inappropriate to the point where the player cannot do their role properly. If it is an appropriate level/ilevel then let them queue, if it isn't then issue a DF error message explaining why they cannot queue.

So I disagree. I feel your idea of homogenizing the value of all gear to be way more problematic and as a solution to this particular issue it is too much work for SE to easily implement. So a simpler idea would be more viable in my opinion.

Not to say that later in the game's life or at Stormblood they won't overhaul some of the equipment system, but for specifically this topic's issue your idea would be too much work for them to quickly implement to fix.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Your idea: Overhaul of entire item level and equipment system. Have to modify every piece of gear currently in the game. Have to adjust equipment obtainment methods due to homogenization. Have redo mathematical calculations for the gear stats and weights.

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My idea : change the ratio between weapon damage and the main stat and...that's it.
Because, again, your idea doesn't change the fact that the weapon is way too important compared to other pieces of gear.

You realize that they changed main stat weight for tanks and that the world didn't crumble ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

My idea : change the ratio between weapon damage and the main stat and...that's it.
Because, again, your idea doesn't change the fact that the weapon is way too important compared to other pieces of gear.

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That's kind of the point tho, its the WEAPON. I don't know any game that relies on damage output where the weapon is not important.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The guy with below average gear (i.e., not properly "dressed")

But, I admit that I didn't expect such a huge gap of damage output against SSS while still staying above the required ilvl. But, for me, the problem should that weapon is too much important compared to other pieces.

It would be a fun experiment so test how low your weapon can get before you'd fail SSS, for the same average ilvl.

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Originally Posted by QuinRaines

Step 2b. "I um don't have one."
Problem solved

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Step 3: Wait for 15 minutes
Step 4:

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Originally Posted by QuinRaines

" Vote kick has been commenced.

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How come we have to wait 5 minutes to kick someone?

I tank did a countdown for Alexander normal, DPS times CD use with it, attack lands on the "start" tank yells at DPS for "not being ready" because someone else wanted to do a ready check after the countdown. Tank lets DPS in question die as they continue to flame them. Group wipes to the DPS check (OH GEE I wonder why) The DPS that died tried to do a yolo speed up attempt and use LB, tank calls out the DPS for "intentionally trying to wipe the group" Then the group does the fight again before the 5 minute timer was up.

We shouldn't have to fight with someone for being toxic and being THE CAUSE for a wipe because people do not want to wait.

So what I like to know is
Why change feast for toxicity when nothing is done to PvE to fight it
Why isn't there stricter gear checks for the DF when it is needed
Why the kick system does not work well and easily abused.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You realize that they changed main stat weight for tanks and that the world didn't crumble ?

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Now imagine if everyone took a damage hit because they messed with the damage formula, suddenly everything is harder to kill. They balanced the game around the weapon scaling being the way it is. This would actually affect quite a bit of the game since a weapon damage ratio change would nerf players. They would have to go into the rest of the gear slots and put the removed damage into the other slots just to keep parity.

It wouldn't break the game, but suddenly everyone is going to be doing less damage unless they put the removed power into other slots or bake it in. It would also devalue the weapons at the minimum which is the hardest slot to upgrade and used as a reward for harder content.

A lot of work when you can just put a check in place to make sure they aren't using a weapon from 2 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

My idea : change the ratio between weapon damage and the main stat and...that's it.
Because, again, your idea doesn't change the fact that the weapon is way too important compared to other pieces of gear.

You realize that they changed main stat weight for tanks and that the world didn't crumble ?

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That's a pretty bad idea. The weapon is important because it's a weapon. Miste has the right idea of making it so that if your weapon level is below the contents level, then you should not be able to enter.
If you remove the importance of the weapon, then why bother doing the Anima questline?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

That's a pretty bad idea. The weapon is important because it's a weapon. Miste has the right idea of making it so that if your weapon level is below the contents level, then you should not be able to enter.
If you remove the importance of the weapon, then why bother doing the Anima questline?

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It doesn't have to be equalized. Just make weapon damage not 11-20x more important than a primary stat. Right now it's totally absurd.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

You still cleared didn't you? Gosh, stop being such an elitist.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I might consider this complaint more valid if you hadn't also cleared the instance. You're talking about imposing strict restrictions on by-definition casual content.

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Originally Posted by Blackcanary

I think your over reacting as long as you cleared a dungeon it's not an issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

So what I'm getting from this post is "It's a problem if we clear something because it wasn't run the way I think it should have been run."

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Did yall clear?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, this is completely different...in fact, it's the exact opposite. Would you hire someone having all the necessary skills/knowledge to perform the job but not dressed to look the part ?

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Hi people, sorry but my computer seems broken and my eyes too, I'm sure I was reading of a topic about someone complaining he was able to end a duty.

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Originally Posted by Renius

It requires AVERAGE ilvl not actual. And at the end of the day who cares that is the easiest of the Alex runs let the guy have his fun. As long as it did not hinder your enjoyment or cause a wipe let them be.

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It's posts like these that allow someone to get away with playing like an Ice Mage in Dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

The weapon is important because it's a weapon.

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You realize that this is not even an argument ?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

If you remove the importance of the weapon, then why bother doing the Anima questline?

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I managed to beat SSS for Sophia EX with an i255 weapon, and literally every other piece of gear below the required ilvl for Sophia, if weapon is so important, why bother farming armor and accessories ?

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Originally Posted by Callinon

It doesn't have to be equalized. Just make weapon damage not 11-20x more important than a primary stat. Right now it's totally absurd.

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Why is it totally absurd?

Right now, weapon damage sets the scale of increases SE wants for the game.

If you lower that value of weapon damage, making it matter less, it would mean they just give weapons themselves higher weapon damage numbers.

IE:
1 WD on PLD equalling to 25 VIT
1 WD on PLD equalling to 5 VIT, then give that weapon 5 WD.

The stat itself 'compared' to the rest of the stats matters little because they purposely want weapon damage to be that important in the end.

The ilevel requirement should not be an average but a base for all gear.

Go with this.

Have 150 All gear at level 60 with 2 270 doesn't mean
Does't mean you will win in something like Pharos sirus hard.
Even if you ilevel is 170.


But that being said it is still just a guide. Not a LAW

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I managed to beat SSS for Sophia EX with an i255 weapon, and literally every other piece of gear below the required ilvl for Sophia, if weapon is so important, why bother farming armor and accessories ?

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How high was your HP and how long do you think you'd survive wearing that gear in Sophia EX? Would you be a Glass Cannon (more so than Casters/Healers or anyone with Weakness/Brink) who would die in one-two hits?

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Originally Posted by Callinon

It doesn't have to be equalized. Just make weapon damage not 11-20x more important than a primary stat. Right now it's totally absurd.

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It's a weapon. The weapon is where most of our damage comes from. Not our armour (though it does add to it). Just make it so that players cannot enter duties if their weapon doesn't match the level of the content.

I don't see the issue. My guess is this was a mistake, considering the rest of his gear appears to be i250+. Did you try actually asking the character to swap weapons, or did you hold in your rage to post here? If it was an accident, most players will thank you for pointing out the error and fix it. This is just like a tank forgetting to put tank stance on though, they'll say "oops," address the issue, and then problem solved! :D

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I managed to beat SSS for Sophia EX with an i255 weapon, and literally every other piece of gear below the required ilvl for Sophia, if weapon is so important, why bother farming armor and accessories ?

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So that this doesn't happen
http://i67.tinypic.com/n67xvc.jpg

Sure, it's PvP not PvE, but the same rules apply. The logic in question here is the weapon is lv 60, all the accessories except for one are lv 60. . . How do you explain that left side?
Did we win? Yes we did. Did the PLD help? No. . . no he didn't. I survived better than he did and MCHs have no defensive skills.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Why is it totally absurd?

Right now, weapon damage sets the scale of increases SE wants for the game.

If you lower that value of weapon damage, making it matter less, it would mean they just give weapons themselves higher weapon damage numbers.

IE:
1 WD on PLD equalling to 25 VIT
1 WD on PLD equalling to 5 VIT, then give that weapon 5 WD.

The stat itself 'compared' to the rest of the stats matters little because they purposely want weapon damage to be that important in the end.

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Yes that's what I'm suggesting be changed. The difference in damage between 1 WD and 1 STR is nuts. No stat should be 25x more important than another stat unless that other stat is totally useless for your job (Piety on a DRG). I don't mean you change the numbers so that the math works out the same way just with different numbers plugged in, that's pointless. I'm saying change the formula so that primary and secondary stats contribute more than they do now and tone down the impact of WD on performance.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's a weapon. The weapon is where most of our damage comes from. Not our armour (though it does add to it). Just make it so that players cannot enter duties if their weapon doesn't match the level of the content.

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It can still be the most important piece of gear but right now it's practically the only piece that matters and that's a problem.

Add to that it's always the most difficult piece of gear to obtain (for obvious reasons with the way the math works) and a rule like you're proposing here brickwalls people who are trying to catch up.

Imposing punitive measures because someone screwed up in an instance (which was cleared anyway) is stupid. It's not a solution to the problem, just a roadblock.

People are carrying on about wanting their party members to show up properly geared.. ok.. but when you're talking about excluding people from expert roulette because their necklace isn't 230? That's stupid. And make no mistake, that's exactly what about half these proposals would do.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Step 3: Wait for 15 minutes

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It's 5 minutes, probably gets taken up by the first failure of a pull if it's that bad.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

It can still be the most important piece of gear but right now it's practically the only piece that matters and that's a problem.

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No... you'd still need decent gear so you could survive raid-wide AoE's (VIT) and have decent Secondary Stats (my BLM has 1248 Spell Speed. Mostly thanks to the gear I have + materia).

I also said level. Not ilvl. You should not be able to enter a Level 60 Duty with a Level 50 weapon (you can even buy Level 60 weapons from the Helix vendors).

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Yes that's what I'm suggesting be changed. The difference in damage between 1 WD and 1 STR is nuts. No stat should be 25x more important than another stat unless that other stat is totally useless for your job (Piety on a DRG). I don't mean you change the numbers so that the math works out the same way just with different numbers plugged in, that's pointless. I'm saying change the formula so that primary and secondary stats contribute more than they do now and tone down the impact of WD on performance.



It can still be the most important piece of gear but right now it's practically the only piece that matters and that's a problem.

Add to that it's always the most difficult piece of gear to obtain (for obvious reasons with the way the math works) and a rule like you're proposing here brickwalls people who are trying to catch up.

Imposing punitive measures because someone screwed up in an instance (which was cleared anyway) is stupid. It's not a solution to the problem, just a roadblock.

People are carrying on about wanting their party members to show up properly geared.. ok.. but when you're talking about excluding people from expert roulette because their necklace isn't 230? That's stupid. And make no mistake, that's exactly what about half these proposals would do.

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The weapon could be 50x, it should not matter, what matters is that it is factored to enter something.

People mess around it to get around it
People enter it thinking it does not matter because they do not know better.

Entry requirements to EVERYTHING needs changing. it was broken at 2.0 and still is. The only difference then and now is how much people care about others are doing. Healers in specific, do not like stressing because someone is lazy/ does not care anything else but themselves.

Also needing to wait 5 minutes to kick someone is ridiculous for some DF's like primal and trails. You need to be allowed to kick right away if someone is so bad they are causing wipes.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

People are carrying on about wanting their party members to show up properly geared.. ok.. but when you're talking about excluding people from expert roulette because their necklace isn't 230? That's stupid. And make no mistake, that's exactly what about half these proposals would do.

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Current Ex roulette requirements are what, 230/235? And drops 245 gear? If someone shows up at bare minimum, or perhaps even at i220, fine. It'll be rough, but doable. But i130/i135? No, THEN we have a problem. What I think people are saying is you shouldn't be able to queue for endgame content without at least bare minimum endgame gear. As far as Heavensward goes, that BLM staff was barely starter gear.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

How high was your HP and how long do you think you'd survive wearing that gear in Sophia EX?

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I wouldn't survive...because I didn't even have the average ilvl to enter Sohia EX. Yet I did enough DPS because I had a higher weapon.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's a weapon. The weapon is where most of our damage comes from. Not our armour (though it does add to it).

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That would have made sense...if only every piece of armor wouldn't add to your main damaging stat...

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Originally Posted by Callinon

~snip~

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So, you don't like it, that's why it needs to change, despite that's how SE purposely made the system for balancing.

I ran into this issue as well. Had someone using a 120 weapon in an expert roulette It took close to 60 min to finish since they were on a dps job. The weapon is the biggest factor in damage. They really should make the min ilvl requirement have a weapon of that ilvl as well.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

when you're talking about excluding people from expert roulette because their necklace isn't 230? That's stupid. And make no mistake, that's exactly what about half these proposals would do.

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If it stops people from still being under-geared to perform to minimum standards or from equipping things to bypass the minimum ilevel, yes. There are other ways to catch up. People have to catch up anyway when they don't already meet the minimum ilevels even with the current system in place.