Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

A healer has 50 levels to practice switching stances less if you are a Whm. Yes you are right a healer shouldn't be made to, but the healer should be striving to whilst levelling and capable of it come 60.

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Yes agree, this wasnt just meant to be about wether someone has the ability to dps as healer though, its more about playing a role because you enjoy the playstyle more. For example, some people just like to dps and some just like to heal.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

with genuine respect why do you play healer if your dpsing 70% of the time?

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By the same token:
In that 70%, what are you doing? If you're doing nothing 70% of the time, why do you play FFXIV?

I am genuinely curious how ppl justify this. When your options are:
A) deal damage
B) overheal
C) do nothing

Why pick B or C, when A is the only beneficial option to your group?

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Originally Posted by CafPow

Why do you play healer, standing around 70% of time doing nothing?

Question here: is removing paralysis from a blackmage considered "raising grp dps"? Because it's not healing. Not at all. So you are just raising the dps of the grp, which is not a healers job right?

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lol no I never stand around doing nothing, that is perhaps one of the biggest mis representation, in these posts. What is missing here is that you cannot get through an instance without healing. So healing as a role is an essential part of the game, like it or not, I have healing spells, not just dps ones :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

lol no I never stand around doing nothing, that is perhaps one of the biggest mis representation, in these posts.

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You've queued for a dungeon.
Your assigned party members are:
PLD, BLM, BRD

Scenario:
* During a fight, you've just finished casting a heal bringing the PLD to full HP.
* PLD uses HG
* You and the DPS are at full HP w/ stoneskin as your range is preventing you 3 from taking damage.

What action does your character take?

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Originally Posted by winsock

By the same token:
In that 70%, what are you doing? If you're doing nothing 70% of the time, why do you play FFXIV?

I am genuinely curious how ppl justify this. When your options are:
A) deal damage
B) overheal
C) do nothing

Why pick B or C, when A is the only beneficial option to your group?

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The only time that ahealer has nothing to do is in low level instances, or if your with another healer that wants to solo heal, In which case its not necessary for me to be there so I may as well go heal somewhere else and you replace me with a dps. I only go in low lvl instances to help someone these days, Cos I already got animas on all three of my healers.._call me lazy if you like :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The only time that ahealer has nothing to do is in low level instances, or if your with another healer that wants to solo heal,

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I beg to differ. If I do an expert roulette and throw an Adlo and an Eye for an Eye on a tank who has a basic understanding of defensive cooldowns, he'll be fine with that for quite a while before I need to do anything else to keep him alive because of the faerie healing. A WHM doing a Stoneskin and a Divine Seal'd Regen should get the same result, as should an AST taking any of the two approaches. Fulltime healing really isn't necessary in a lot of places, which is why we choose to use the free time for dealing damage.

Except the endgame savage mode ore the last 2 bosses of dun scaith, you always have spare time.

So, answer the question? What do you do?

What should a healer, who want's to do khloes album and goes level roulette, landing in sastasha normal do with all his spare time?
-heal something else, you said. Der is nothing.
-take an additional DPS with em, you said. This can only be done in premades

So, go on, answer the question? What are you doing?
a) deal damage
b) overheal
c) do nothing

What are you doing?

PS: are the cards from AST part of the healers job? It's a damage issue right? So... not your job?

Pls understand my p.o.v. i can't understand how one could defend the "i only heal" thingy. Impossible for me to do.

Oh and PPS: i'm not trying to attack you, you can play how you want to do, your gaming experience should be fine for you, and no one else. ^^

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The only time that ahealer has nothing to do is in low level instances,

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Not true. I took the liberty of finding a video for you:
https://youtu.be/FXDtKz7dIyM
At around 1:10 this healer casts gravity, and continue to til around 1:20-1:25ish.

What actions would your healer be taking in this 10-15 second period?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The only time that ahealer has nothing to do is in low level instances, or if your with another healer that wants to solo heal, In which case its not necessary for me to be there so I may as well go heal somewhere else and you replace me with a dps.

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Do you never do anything like a lvl 60 roulette or Void Ark or similar stuff?
I was helping my boyfriend to farm something from Antitower / Lost City of Amdapor (hard) recently and went as WHM. In all three boss fights, when the tank is NOT severely undergeared, I maybe had to cast a Regen once or twice and even that wasn't really necessary all the time. I guess it would really have been possible without a healer, but in DF you MUST have a healer. So instead of just standing there, I did a lot of dps to make the run faster and to be fair to the others who were using useful abilities all the time.
When we did Void Ark as to healers, me as WHM and he as SCH, we both didn't have to heal once. The fairy did all the work. Granted, our tank wasn't the main tank, but if he were, I would have cast a Regen on him here and there and that would surely have been enough.

See, healing required in this game is already so low. But if you outgear the content enough, it gets close to zero. Would you really only stand there and do nothing in such a case?

I like healing too and I have no problem with having heal more. But this game is designed with a lot of downtime between heals.



Also, about the term "playstyle"... Are you really fine with it when the BLM wants to be an ice mage? When the MNK only wants to do punches and no kicks? Or when the DRG wants to play as a ranged fighter? I'd rather have them use all their abilities instead of just 20-50% of them. I'm casual, so I can't expect people to play perfectly. But I can expect them to at least put some effort into it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The only time that ahealer has nothing to do is in low level instances, or if your with another healer that wants to solo heal, In which case its not necessary for me to be there so I may as well go heal somewhere else and you replace me with a dps. I only go in low lvl instances to help someone these days, Cos I already got animas on all three of my healers

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Hmm...

Well, like I said before, I'm not going to force someone to change how they play, but why wouldn't you do something when there is nothing to heal or fix? I can't see how someone wouldn't want to keep themselves busy. Sure healer dps isn't required, but why would you rather stand there than dish out some damage? In endgame dungeons, as someone said, once you outgear them, the healing is very minimal. A shield or a DS'ed regen and asylum can keep the tank up for nearly the whole pull.

I really hope I don't sound like I'm biting right now, but tone is so hard to convey on the internet ;/

Yeah, I think this discussion usually boils down to people just having different mindsets, and I'm fine with that, really. As I said in my earlier post, I'll keep playing healer regardless of what happens with the current DPS meta in Stormblood, because I enjoy healing as well as DPSing. My personal approach is to apply the Always Be Casting approach to healing as well, and when nobody's dying, well...

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Originally Posted by CafPow

Except the endgame savage mode ore the last 2 bosses of dun scaith, you always have spare time.

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Even in savage content they have time to dps. There's a video of an ast solo healing a12s, and even then he threw out dps when he could.

Even before I learned about stance dancing. I would at least throw out My DPS skills in between heals. It doesn't do nearly as much damage as cleric stance but it's at least something.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Even in savage content they have time to dps. There's a video of an ast solo healing a12s, and even then he threw out dps when he could.

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even better O.O

Well to reply to posts earlier would like to point out that if you doing 70% dps time then your not optimizing your healing spells, which some healers would enjoy doing Just adjusting this You are not optizing the utility of the ability to heal. Hope that corrects the misunderstand of what I meant. You are a healer that wants to dps 70% of the time ok well I want to use my healing spells more because I enjoy healing more than dps. Difference is that you can play that way and enjoy it but that isnt the case for all. Need to remind people here though that this is not about optimization of play its about preferred roles or playstyles

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well to reply to posts earlier would like to point out that if you doing 70% dps time then your not optimizing your healing spells, which some healers would enjoy doing

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On the contrary, they can dps 70% of the time because they optimize their healing.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well to reply to posts earlier would like to point out that if you doing 70% dps time then your not optimizing your healing spells, which some healers would enjoy doing

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And if you're healing 100% of the time then you're most likely overhealing and that is also not optimizing your healing spells

Optimizing unecessary healing spells, won't change a thing sadly

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well to reply to posts earlier would like to point out that if you doing 70% dps time then your not optimizing your healing spells

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As others have already pointed out, optimising your healing means using as little time and other resources as possible on healing (= healing as little as possible) while keeping everyone alive. This means you're using your abilities as effectively as possible, getting the most out of them. The more you're spending time on healing, the worse you and / or your party members are doing. The better you optimise your healing, the more time you have to support your party with DPS.

Well, You are indeed free to play how you like, Healers don't have to DPS. Nope. Nothing forces you to do such.
If you want to stand around, doing nothing while the others players in your team are playing, except for throwing one heal or two from time to time, it is up to you.

Honnestly I will never kick a heal that don't dps. As long as I remain alive, that's fine. However, I will label him/her as a low tier player. And there is a lot of chance that if I remember his/her name when seeing it pop in a party finder for something harder than dungeons/ brutal primals, I will kick that healer out of the party before even geting in the trial.

To make a comparaison, I have some nice self healing tools in my skills. Would I not use them as it is not my role to heal myself? Nah. I use all my toolkit to ensure the run is the fastest and smoothest possible for the whole party.
You will face 2 cases : either you have a low geared tank that require all your attention (got some, and it is pretty annoying, to be forced to instant cast a Cure 2 as they are dying faster than you can cast sometimes) and then it will be obvious you dont have time to throw some dots.
Or you will be teamed up with enough stuffed tanks that will barely lose any HP. In this case, just standing around will only make you being seen as lazy or subpart healer.
Again, your right to not dps, but the right to the rest of the party to not want having you again playing with them .

The better you play, the more you will be remebered well by players, and the easiest it will be to find parties for better content. It may sound silly, but when it comes to reaching high level content, the reputation you built during previous game session will change drasticly how you will be able to enjoy what lie beyond brain dead dungeons.
Still, I understand how you feel about wanting to heal more, but sadly, except when you have pretty undergeared or bad players, nothing is threatening in this game except for savage raids. Wanna have an exemple : Some bosses from the 24 players raids can be tanked WITHOUT a healer... I wasn't expecting it but I could tank and finish Fergal in Dun Scaith for 60% of his HP, without any heals as they were all dead. As a Dark Kinght. That's how weak damages received are if you know what you are doing.

Sorry, I woke up and there was blood everywhere. Is the OP advocating that scholars should only heal and never dps?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well to reply to posts earlier would like to point out that if you doing 70% dps time then your not optimizing your healing spells.

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Nonsense. Could you elaborate on the optimizations you are bringing to the table?
Healers that DPS can be time efficient, avoid overhealing, and keep everyone alive. The only difference I can really spot here is what is left in your mp bar after a fight, which is not an optimization... What good is unspent mp after a dungeon?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I do see your point, and this is about if people can play their chosen role which is one of the three. I do have much better skills, and spells as a healer, otherwise everyone would be some kind of hybrid player that has to do all three. Dps to me is a different role to healing, Dps is not part of that role naturally, same as healing is not part of a dps role

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Physick - summoner, black mage - during emergency situations they can and do use these
Bloodbath - warrior, dark knight, warrior, dragoon, monk - used VERY often by all five classes as an extra region during periods requiring extra healing or after doing something stupid
Second Wind - monk, warrior, bard, ninja - again a great skill used often by DPS to restore HP after a big hit

Beyond the pure healing skills available to DPS, there are also:

Mantra - monk, dragoon, ninja, warrior
Foresight - warrior, dark knight, paladin, dragoon, monk
Featherfoot - monk, warrior, dragoon, bard, ninja
Keen Flurry - dragoon, monk, bard, ninja
...


These skills and others aren't DPS skills; yet we have them. So healing isn't part of a DPS role and DPS isn't part of a healer role? Why do we have these skills then?

I understand, truly, healers get shit on a lot because a lot is expected of them. Arguably, the healer role in FFXIV is the hardest role to play at even a mediocre level. I don't know what game you came from in which healers only had to heal - but in FFXIV, healers are expected to DPS; tanks are expected to DPS and Heal (themselves or other party members when applicable) and DPS are expected to DPS, Heal (themselves) and Tank (yes, DPS tank things besides the floor)

Again I refer you to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgM...tu.be&t=17m17s - this looks even worse for a scholar.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Physick - summoner, black mage - during emergency situations they can


I understand, truly, healers get shit on a lot because a lot is expected of them. Arguably, the healer role in FFXIV is the hardest role to play at even a mediocre level. I don't know what game you came from in which healers only had to heal - but in FFXIV, healers are expected to DPS; tanks are expected to DPS and Heal (themselves or other party members when applicable) and DPS are expected to DPS, Heal (themselves) and Tank (yes, DPS tank things besides the floor)

Again I refer youv=jBgMe5uHPsE&feature=youtu.be&t=17m17s[/url] - this looks even worse for a scholar.

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These simply are not the same. I need to change stance to play another role which is dps and a different playstyle. I would welcome buffs instead, and so why dont we ask a summoner to heal so sch can enjoy their dps? (sarcasm) and need to add to this even tanks do not have to change the playstyle with a change of stance they stll use the same skills. This being exoected by the community indeed, unless SE changes that coercion.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

These simply are not the same. I need to change stance to play another role which is dps and a different playstyle. I would welcome buffs instead, and so why dont we ask a summoner to heal so sch can enjoy their dps? (sarcasm)

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The SMN doesn't need to heal. The SCH already did their job.

Example: I healed Baelsar's Wall on SCH for the first time last night. I've only done it on AST before. Between deploying a crit adlo on the party, rousing my fairy and controlling her skills, and putting a sacred soil down, I was fully able to dps through half of every single big pull, then drop cleric stance and top the tank off. And she wasn't max geared, either; she's a returning player.

If I hadn't been optimizing my healing skills and dpsing to help cut down the time those big pulls last, it would have been incredibly boring. Because the healing requirements for a well geared SCH who relies on and controls her fairy are very low.

Pure healing is boring, it makes dungeons longer, and it gets me less comms. Seems like the healers that dislike DPSing are largely just scared of Cleric Stance. Start small, or something, DPSing and Healing is not hard, and the worst thing that can happen is your party dies, but when I was learning they were all cool with the fact that I was getting the hang of DPS-lering. I enjoy healing and DPSing and I don't want to have gameplay cut from healers just because you're scared of stance dancing.

You say healers are supposed to heal and not dps, but this is a game where you step out of your role to significantly help the team by dpsing, just like a SMN who raises or a PLD who uses stoneskin and also uses clemency which is a HEALING move to heal other players or themselves, it's not a role they were designed for, but they helps healers alot.

Watch this video
https://youtu.be/V06y5hdwrpg

As you can see, the black mage heals as the healer gets KO, is it his job to heal? No its not, but he stepped out of his role helped the party through this dungon. Was his party members upset? No, they were happy that they killed the boss and impressed.

This game is designed to come together as a group of individuals to take down that boss, by stepping out of your role and giving it your all to kill that final boss.

This is a group game, to work together as one.

Okay. I think I've got it. The OP's original question: "could we now leave healers alone to play as healers, and those who want to dps, dps?"

They're asking if we can change or update the META of the game simply because new dps jobs were introduced, and no new healers.

As of right now and the foreseeable future, without knowing more about the battle changes and the playstyle of upcoming dungeons and raids, the answer is NO, WE CANNOT.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Pure healing is boring, it makes dungeons longer, and it gets me less comms. Seems like the healers that dislike DPSing are largely just scared of Cleric Stance. Start small, or something, DPSing and Healing is not hard, and the worst thing that can happen is your party dies, but when I was learning they were all cool with the fact that I was getting the hang of DPS-lering. I enjoy healing and DPSing and I don't want to have gameplay cut from healers just because you're scared of stance dancing.

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Its not about being scared of cleric and even if It was and others are then there may be a problem, are you or any other dps made to feel anxious? If healing is boring to you why not go dps, if thats what you choose you like to do more of.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Its not about being scared of cleric and even if It was and others are then there may be a problem, are you or any other dps made to feel anxious? If healing is boring to you why not go dps, if thats what you choose you like to do more of.

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it's amazing that you've not twigged onto the point everyone have been making yet:

we don't like DPSing more than healing, we like being optimal.

healing itself isn't boring, but at the gear levels and fight design we currently have, we have a LOT of downtime, which IS boring, thankfully it can be filled with other things whilst we wait for our wonderful meatshields/minions to take damage, and currently that thing is DPS.

as for why I personally don't play a DPS: it's because I hate the playstyle of every single DPS in the game. I used to like SMN and BLM, but Square ruined it by adding Aethertrail Attunement and Enochian, and whilst I could quite easily just keep doing my 2.x rotation and ignore those terrible mechanics, I would personally feel like garbage for willingly playing unoptimally because I'd feel like I've let my party down by not giving it my all.

ok after 11 pages i think this is trollpic

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

You say healers are supposed to heal and not dps, but this is a game where you step out of your role to significantly help the team by dpsing.

This is a group game, to work together as one.

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Sorry but a summoner does not have to change role to raise. They remain dps and a rez takes 2 seconds they do not have to change stance and heal the group. on a regular basis and both at once. I agree you help your group thats what heaing does. Why is it not enough for you? 3 reasons, you need help with the dps cos dps not good enough thats not healers fault, next one is wanting to clear faster. Why does it have to be 2 minutes faster? Next one is the worst reason, cos dont want to carry a healer that wont play how I expect him to. You just missed the fact that the healer is already enabling you to get through the instance otherwise youd be dead. Possibly 4th one this is a work place and everyone has to be working at all times.

Alright, now that I've read a bit of this thread I've come a realization. Play however you want. Cool. No one else has to put up with it, and the majority of people aren't. It's not going to change, it's not going away, good healers knowing that they need to DPS is here to stay. No one here is a DPS that wants to Heal, we're all Healers that want to DPS. This actually isn't even an argument. (￣▽￣)

I like how all this has already been said to Feyona before in a different thread. I wonder how many threads it will take to sink in.

DPSing is part of the gameplay of a real healer. Go try another MMO. Guess that was kinda derogatory.

There is no playstyle choice for you. You play efficiently or not.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

No one here is a DPS that wants to Heal, we're all Healers that want to DPS.

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For me as healer, I simply want to support the group. When I am healing, I am looking for my first opportunity to DPS. When I am DPSing, I am looking for my first opportunity to heal. If someone drops, I look for my first opportunity to raise them. I don't really enjoy one or the other so much as I appreciate the role as a whole and its versatility. With being able to choose which heals are best for the given situation, and not really having a set-in-stone DPS rotation, healer is quite possibly the most flexible role in the game.

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Originally Posted by Pentacus

it's amazing that you've not twigged onto the point everyone have been making yet:

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I think a big reason why she hasn't is due to the choice of words to criticize her gameplay. If she interprets any of it as condescending, whether real or imagined, she will not absorb the criticism no matter how constructive it might be in reality. It's just how some minds work.

For example, anytime someone says, "You're standing around doing nothing." I'm not saying it's wrong. It is a cold hard fact, no doubt. But the air around it is negative, and the lack of tone of the internet doesn't allow the person being told to read your expressions. If the healer has a negative mentality, as many do, the criticism gets rejected. I don't have the exact solution to get Sylphies to pull the trigger on Cleric, but I do know for me, what ultimately worked was remembering my aspirations to be a really good healer in this game. And in order to do that, you must optimize your toolkit. Now I absolutely love the support that heals and DPS brings to the group.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think a big reason why she hasn't is due to the choice of words to criticize her gameplay. If she interprets any of it as condescending, whether real or imagined, she will not absorb the criticism no matter how constructive it might be in reality. It's just how some minds work.

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Firstly 'she' is refering to me, I presume, is not talking about or asking about efficiency, I was discussing playstyle and choice of, or lack of according to the person above. Secondly, It is not necessary to dps to be a good healer. Just go in instances where you have to heal bad groups or people learning like I do and then you wont have the space to dps. Am I a bad healer? Thats subjective but I do get people through instances and get quite a few commends. Thirdly, I'm amazed that you havent twigged what the subject of the post was about. Having said that I would like to ask you how I play the game cos you seem to know more about that than I do.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

... tanks do not have to change the playstyle with a change of stance they stll use the same skills...

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Oh my ..
You are wrong.
At least, warriors lose a big Part of the Healtpool, they do less enmity and over all, they lose the possibility to use inner Beast, which gives them 20% dmg-reduction!
This is a coremechanic of Warriors!!
Overall... switching the stance as a War will cause 12 seconds CD to both stances. Now tell me again how tose 5sec Cleric wipe the Grp.

And again, may question was unanswered. What do you do in your spare time?
a) nothing
b) overheal
c) dps
R.S.V.P.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Firstly 'she' is refering to me, I presume, is not talking about or asking about efficiency, I was discussing playstyle and choice of, or lack of according to the person above. Secondly, It is not necessary to dps to be a good healer. Just go in instances where you have to heal bad groups or people learning like I do and then you wont have the space to dps. Am I a bad healer? Thats subjective but I do get people through instances and get quite a few commends. Thirdly, I'm amazed that you havent twigged what the subject of the post was about. Having said that I would like to ask you how I play the game cos you seem to know more about that than I do.

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1) yes and everyone says, play like you want. I'd like to understand this boring playstile though
2) you don't know if you recieve a bad grp. If you are well equipped, only 2 or 3 bosses will completely need you to heal only.
3) again, you can do what you want. Not my Problem. But you seem to be unable to understand the pooint the pro-dps-leage is doing here.

Btw. I healed a lowlwvwldungeon yesterday. Cause i have bad gear (still leveling) i was constantly healing 90% of the time. Was okay, all good. It was necessary. Don't think that we will DPS no matter what.