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Originally Posted by KusoWat
Alright I'll admit that I worded my question wrong. What I should've asked was, what actually makes the PvP in this game good? You're saying this PvP is good, but all I've seen in this thread are reasons why it sucks. Meanwhile, you aren't giving any reasons to why people here should believe it's good. Even then, just because some people enjoy something doesn't mean it should be perceived as good. Some people actually enjoying 1.0 didn't mean it wasn't a complete commercial failure.
The idea that this player base chooses to avoid PvP because of the supposed challenge of it is completely incorrect. The reason people aren't playing this is because they're either playing other games that do PvP much better than this one, or it's because they simply aren't interested in it. There's plenty of other things people would rather do in this game alone than PvP. Some people just don't like PvP in general. If people were afraid of challenging game play, I guarantee you games like Dota2 and Counter strike would be dead in the water. As of right now, according to steam stats, there are 637,208 players playing CS GO and 554,456 players playing Dota 2. Both numbers are more than the active player base of this game in general.
You are right that it needs a match making system, but a proper match making system isn't going to do any good at all when there aren't enough people to match each other up with. That's why the few new players that go in keep getting matched up with these premade platinum players is because there's nobody else to match them up with. I guess the Garo event helped out with that somewhat, but once it ends, it'll be back to business as usual for many people. It's putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.
OP and the others have a point, people don't play this PvP because it IS bad.
My issues with PvP
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02-23-2017, 03:48 AMToasterMan
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02-23-2017, 05:18 AMKhalitharActually I have done healing in PVP as well when my team needs it. I've healed in other games also, I know how to kite around corners, LOS ranged dps, cross heal and aoe, and use my knockbacks and stuns when I could. I did pretty well when I had another healer and we were able to prevent kills and all the while I was being chased, getting targeted by LB's and being hounded the entire game. It was intense, I don't deny that healing in PVP is very challenging and the games that I did as a healer definitely gave me a perspective on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada
But after healing people and having those intense games and seeing how strong healing was, I felt like a hypocrite because I had become part of the problem that I complain about so much. Playing healer didn't make me change my mind, it only reinforced my position and made me realize that the burst damage is a necessary evil because healing is too strong. Once healing gets the nerf it deserves, maybe we can talk about lowering damage. So again, I'm going to have to say I disagree with you.
I'd rather have those 20-30 second matches you mentioned than these 6-7 minute dragged out stalemates. -
02-23-2017, 05:41 AMKusoWatFor a game that is primarily a PvE focused game, why is the raiding community so utterly small and considered a minority amongst the playerbase? Why does challenging content only become populated after severe nerfs? Why does the player-base always ask for nerfs on aspects of the game they find too hard? Why did people quit the raiding scene in Gordias?Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterMan
Reason: This game is very casual. It doesn't try to give people a reason to improve or to get good at it. It barely teaches players the ins and outs and expects everyone to be okay with an individual's "play style".
The game doesn't challenge you unless you seek it. As statistics show, not too many people do.
Regarding to people playing CS:GO and Dota 2, realize it's not the same community playing those games as the one playing this game.
The main draw for this game is the PvE, it being so easy, straightforward, and well, basic. Then the raiding/pvp comes which is nothing like most of the game.
You're entitled to your opinion. Much like I haven't supplied to you the reason why the PvP in this game has depth, you've yet to really explain to me why it is so bad. Unless the healing is the reason PvP is so bad? It's not as if other games don't have flaws of their own, but does that flaw really hold that much weight.Quote:
OP and the others have a point, people don't play this PvP because it IS bad.
Play Fold, players don't get auto-raised after death there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
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02-23-2017, 05:46 AMAma_HamadaYou never faced DPS that know how to burst, you lack all comment on needing to pre-heal, that is how I know. Also you are playing whm, whm and SCH are leagues apart and SCH does need boosting. Also the way you worded it tells me you where in the frountlines (as in being in he front, not the game mode) too much, allowing yourself to be targeted and getting away, you were not playing experienced players. You should be making it a goal not to be a target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
You only played reactive healing? if that is the case you never healed a proper burst. Healing is not OP, bursts are esp when you are 80-95% hp and a brd has everything ready, you WILL be picked off, or one of your dps, while people are focusing on you. Are you able to heal your self and another while both being focused on? while one is under the target of a true burst? -
02-23-2017, 09:52 AMToasterMan
First of all, the reason why the PvP in this game has depth wasn't my question, my question was, what makes it good? As for not showing why it's bad, This thread already provides plenty of reasons why people think it's bad. I just agree with almost everything that's mentioned here in regards to issues. To relist them all again would be redundant. The ball is in your court. The fact that this thread even exists is a reason. The fact that nobody plays this PvP should be a red flag that something probably isn't right.
Incorrect. If you ask a GM, kicking people for different play styles is totally acceptable. Plenty of people on this forum have said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by KusoWat
Gordias was one of the worst things to ever happen to this game. People quit the raiding scene in Gordias because they realized the challenge in it just wasn't worth it. It had terrible design, in fact, part of the challenge was adapting to it's awful design (Which isn't good challenge.). It was also the fact that it was no were near as good as coil was. There's only so much time people will spend banging into the A3S wall until they decide to go do something better with their time. I haven't played this game seriously in like two months. Building settlements in Fallout 4 is more fun for me right now then grinding light on my anima OR playing the PvP in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by KusoWat
There's a lot of people who would like to raid, but can't find the people to do it with or just don't have the time. Back in 2.0 EVERYBODY I knew wanted to do coil, and I used to be on Faerie, a server that was considered to be the most casual at the time. The people on here wanting nerfs is a vocal minority, and isn't most of the player base at all. As for the people populating content once it's nerfed, that's really just for farming it. My own static is like this. We were bird farming Bismarck yesterday because we figured it was easy to do, why not? We didn't ask for the nerf. It's pretty much the same for everyone else.
But Gordias being too hard or raiding in general have nothing to do with PvP, because the two activities are completely different animals. Raiding will always have a set difficulty (Unless the devs physically go in and make it easier or harder) While PvP, can theoretically be any challenge, The challenge to a match is dependent on the skill level of your opponent.
Actually, technically parts of these game communities are the same. People don't just play one game religiously. I've got friends on this game that play both of those games. The DRK in my old static plays overwatch regularly. I can't tell you how many people on this game play League. People in this game pretty much play any PvP game out there right now besides this one :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by KusoWat
This game being primarily PvE focused is........honestly irrelevant. When deciding what PvP I'm gonna play, I'm not gonna feel sorry for this games PvP because it comes from a PvE focused game and chose it because of that, I'm gonna go play League because it's better. When your group chooses a DPS for your raid, you don't choose the person who does least amount right? You pick the best one. That's what the majority of the player base is doing when they pick a PvP to play.
You zoomed right in on the complaint the OP had about healing and ignored everything else he brought up. -
02-23-2017, 09:58 AMKhalitharIf there was no healing in it? Count me in. I'd play that and nothing else regardless of the wait time.Quote:
Originally Posted by KusoWat
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02-23-2017, 12:21 PMKusoWatHow does that make what I said incorrect? It being an acceptable means of removing someone doesn't suddenly mean it also isn't promoted. As if every GM case released is weighted equally or correctly. The most incriminating evidence in a report is the ingame chat and in no way accuratey or successfully handles every report right. SE takes minimal effort to teach players themselves. Don't confuse SE intentions with what actually occurs. Perhaps I should have used a more direct term in that we are expected to accept mediocrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterMan
What makes this game's pvp good to me is the pacing, the weight of the roles/jobs, power of coordination, and the general flare of the game type. The ease of being able to switch between jobs. Change in play style from PvE to PvP. The balance between jobs is a bit better than other MMOs of this game's archetype imo. The way comp's are setup in feast/fold. Gameplay isn't too slow or fast, the different phases in combat, has a ton of counter-play options, and has a great focus on using teamwork to succeed. I find the pvp fun(good) because it appeals to me and sparks my enjoyment.Quote:
First of all, the reason why the PvP in this game has depth wasn't my question, my question was, what makes it good?
Not everything is black and white, don't assume that I turn a blind eye to the problems in PvP. I talked about the healing because I believe the game to be balanced in that facet. You assume I disagree with everything the OP said, but that isn't the case. Some of the faults being at the size of the community and the lack of advertisement and proper guiding to the mode. It's not as if my post have been void of negative statements toward PvP. Overall I like the PvP in this game despite its pitfalls. Clearly there are others who agree to some degree, otherwise there wouldn't be any queue pops, new players, or reoccurring players in games/seasons. However, games are rarely perfect in that every (most) game has flaws. Yes, even Overwatch has them, and that is what updating is for. And not everyone likes Overwatch or thinks it's a good game. I sure do though.
What are your own complaints about PvP?
Funny that you say that. The players in my static whom toughed it out through the grueling nature of A3S have, on multiple occasions, wished some of the more recent fights were among the same caliber in both requiring mastery in your respective job and correctly managing difficult mechanics. Some other raiders feel the same as well.Quote:
Gordias was one of the worst things to ever happen to this game. People quit the raiding scene in Gordias because they realized the challenge in it just wasn't worth it. It had terrible design. It was also the fact that it was no were near as good as coil was. There's only so much time people will spend banging into the A3S wall until they decide to go do something better with their time.
Was Bismarck ever classified as challenging content? I wasn't even aware it received nerfs other than echo.
Except Raiding/PvP are both perceived as challenging. You have to be good at the game to succeed in both, and both are the only places in this game where you actually have to strive to be better to consistently do well in. PvP may not have a set difficulty or predictable mechanics, but that's part of what makes it unique to this game.
Challenge isn't worth it
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Actually, technically parts of these game communities are the same. People don't just play one game religiously.
As far as the community goes. How well does the CoD/LoL community handle toxicity compared to the FFXIV community? Game's have their own player-base who respond differently to the acts of a game's developers.Quote:
Originally Posted by KusoWat
This bout or whatever we are having is getting rather dull.
Set up a party finder, make sure no healers are allowed, and wait until your heart's content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
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02-23-2017, 02:16 PMAma_HamadaI need set up a pvp match 4 sch vs 4 sch since that is the only balanced match up in the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by KusoWat
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02-24-2017, 04:57 AMChrononsI guess we will just have to disagree here. I spar with my brother at the dueling arena often. He has been a PVP healer since the Fold, heals over a million in FL modes often, and has saved my battle highs more times than I can count. In a 1v1 scenario I can take on his WHM and AST with relative ease as my NIN and WAR, low burst compared to some others jobs. SCH is the only thing that becomes tricky. However, even then he cant kill me and stay alive at the same time. So fights end up becoming an endless battle until he screws up or I get lucky with crits. Yes - in actual PVP modes there are a milieu of variables at play, making it harder to kill players. However, as a general rule of balance dps has an advantage over healing. Also, most dps classes have more than one interrupter at their disposal: multiple stun options, silences, stack removers, sleep, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
People dont play the PVP in the game for one of two reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterMan
1. They are not interested in it. It is a PVE game first after all. (we seem to agree here)
2. The challenge associated with it.
Ill elaborate a bit for context. Lets start with 2 as 1 is self evident, I think. PVP is challenging only in terms of player skill necessary to play well. The modes themselves are pretty straightforward. Plenty of people clear 95% of PVE content without having to know the in and outs of maximizing their jobs potential, the game is designed that way. Further, content is repeatable. Meaning you can practice a fight over and over until you get it down. When you step into PVP a few things are going to change from the PVE formula. If you dont know how to maximize your job, you will lose to most everyone who does. You will likely lose to anyone who knows more about maximizing the job than you do. Lets say you do know your job 100%, you now have to deal with having a sense of the playing field. If your enemy out smarts you, you lose. If you press too hard and are overwhelmed, you lose. If you allow yourself to be sneaked upon, you lose. No two fights are the same, and your playing against a person not the AI. That is challenging in a way much different than something like Savage content, especially in a game that people purchase for PVE.
Now, if you can manage all of that properly and still dont like PVP in FFXIV you likely fall under number 1, which is perfectly ok. However, to parrot your own point- your lack of interest in something does not make it bad. There are some things wrong with PVP, no questions about it, but to suggest it is bad because its not as popular as the main focus of the game is fallacious at best. If you are interested in PVP, but struggle with these things that is also okay. Dont avoid playing it, or try to point out issues where issues dont exist. Find friends to play with and practice, practice, practice.
TLDR: I utterly reject the notion that people dont play FFXIV PVP because there is some overwhelming systemic issue of its design. They are either uninterested in it, interested and learning, interested and complaining, or interested and thriving. -
02-25-2017, 09:31 PMZojhaAnd I didn't claim more. I didn't claim that he would end up killing you - gee, healers have no damage in PvP and without damage, you can't even win against a ladybug and that's scarcely a fierce opponent. The entire game is built around the winning condition of reducing health bars to 0 and the only thing able to do that is damage, hence damage has an innate supremacy in importance over anything else. That's why WHM and PLD are currently struggling in PvE as well and why everyone and their mother needs decent DPS abilities in solo content. That's also why I consider dedicated healers bad design, because they aren't working towards it, they only work against it. In other words: They aren't designed to "Win". It's a fairly coherent thought process, really. But agreeing to disagreeing is a fair proposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronons
One thing I'd like to note, though, on your latter paragraph:
On the challenge of PvP.
Any challenge in PvP is generated by players and in most games, MMR exists to regulate the amount of challenge. You do not need to min/max, prepare or learn anything, because you'd just get enemies that haven't done that either. This is a huge upside over PvE, because in PvE, you have to adjust to the challenge of the content, whereas in PvP, the challenge will adjust to you. You can be crappy as you want, you'll just get crappy opponents as well and everyone is happy. Or so is the theory.
It works in practice as well, but only in games with high population. It works splendid in CS:GO, DotA2, League of Legends and many others and I wager the mentality of the respective communities regarding challenge is not much different. Heck, 90% of the active population in LoL isn't even ranked, that doesn't strike one as particularly challenge seeking. The main difference IMO is that they simply have a higher population and can offer anyone a fitting challenge level for them, even the guy who goes:"You don't pay my sub." This game cannot offer that.
Which in turn just brings one back to the reasons of why we lack that population in the first place. I think one point in that regard is fair: Accessibility. To PvP in this game, you can't just download it for free, you have to buy the base game, the expansion, pay regularly for the subscription and level to 60. That is a major deterrent if all you're interested in this game is PvP, without the shadow of a doubt. Challenge, as I outline above, is a symptom of a lacking playerbase and thus can't cause it on its own. There need to be other factors. You can name the complexity for one, because most PvP games don't exactly dump 3 full hotbars on you, but in turn, they tend to compensate with things such as the itemization systems of MOBAs. You can also name long queues, but again, those are a symptom of a lacking playerbase.
That said, we could do a little test and make an unlimited PvP only free trial to get rid of the accessibility issue. But truth be told, I doubt it would change much. I think the issue, ultimately, is simply gameplay. And since you reject the notion, I'm afraid that's another point where we will have to agree to disagree. -
02-28-2017, 06:32 AMChrononsSigh.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
- I claimed a good dps can beat a good healer
- You refuted that, claiming a good dps could beat a bad healer. However against a good healer a good dps would require the help from others and stated one could go to the dueling arena to test that claim.
- I provided my personal data point from testing your claim via your proposed method. My findings were counter to your claim: In an even 1v1 matchup I can beat WHM and AST in less than 10 secs, SCH is the exception to the rule and I stipulated that it was a debatable outcome.
I am not suggesting that a healer should be able to kill a dps, the evidence I provided shows that in the case of WHM and AST it is not true that a good dps needs help against a good healer (unless they happen to be a SCH). Your ramblings on whether dedicated healers are a good or bad design choice are irrelevant to this exchange.
As an aside, I would advise you against being intellectually condescending. It is above you.
That is because there have been little to no arguments for systemic gameplay issues that dont rely on comparisons to dedicated PVP games. PVP in FFXIV is simply a part of the amusement park at large, where players can spend their time if they desire. Not Dota, LoL, Overwatch, CS:GO or whatever else people have mentioned. Of course PVP in FFXIV lacks some of the things games designed from bottom up for PVP have. That is not an argument for there being an issue with PVP in FFXIV. If someone would care to argue within the proper context, I am more than open to be swayed. By context I mean; PVP exists in FFXIV to give endgame players something to do when PVE content is light, Frontlines and 8 man Feast are for fun only, Ranked Feast is the only "competitive" mode in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
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02-28-2017, 11:35 PMZojhaNo, you did not and I did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronons
THIS is what you said:
To which I stated my own experience with burst. From my experiences, you need about 3 seconds worth of stun to burst down a healer, or you fail to burst - a quick purify saves you, as it allows you to act and actually do something about being bursted. And a good healer would do just that. THAT is what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronons
Further, I can quote my own posts again if you like, just to show you that none of them contains anything about the healer killing anything after the burst, which you allege I said. It's not there, it's not even implied, you're wholeheartedly invited to re-read them over and over. Send them to a communications specialist for thorough analysis if you must. You're making it up, then base your argument on it, disregarding not just mine but even your own words in the process even when confronted about it. If I hadn't criticized someone elses ad hominem earlier, this would provide me more than ample opportunity for some myself. I'll leave it, but I cannot help but shed doubt on your "data point" in the light of it.
That said, to the other topic:
You are giving the "context" far more credit than it deserves. The MOBA genre originally was confined to custom maps of strategy games, i.e. irrelevant side attractions without official support. Despite this, these maps were highly popular and the genre completely exploded when they started making F2P stand-alone games of it. One of the most prominent games of its time, Counter-Strike was originally a half-life mod - again not intended for the main game. Valve was smart to buy it up quick, because it swiftly became popular. In the context of the respective games, both were irrelevant user generated side content, not even part of the main game. Despite this, the most successful PvP games currently on the market sprung from them. This leads me to believe that context is not in fact all that important for success and I really couldn't imagine the PvP in this game to become a big hit on the market if it was turned into a stand-alone game like the mods of other games have. I think it's just not good enough designed for that, in large part due to carrying the PvE design baggage around.
I can be wrong there of course, since it's all speculation. Hence why I'd like an unlimited free trial for PvP! It would show nicely how well the gameplay fares on its own. Alas, we're not in the position to decide that. -
03-01-2017, 02:58 AMChrononsIm not going to quibble with you about whether or not "a good dps can beat a good healer" and "all it takes is one good dps to burst down a good healer" mean the same thing. I defined my position multiple times and it remains for others to read for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
I never alleged anything about healers being able to kill. I briefly mentioned it when discussing SCH in the dueling arena, why you have chosen to laser in on that despite my last post clarifying my position is beyond me.
3 seconds of stun required to burst down a healer:
MNK- Ax kick, Somersault, Shoulder Tackle, Arm of the Destroyer, Steel Peak
NIN- Ill Wind, Overwhelm, Jugulate, Shadow Fang
BLM- Night Wing, Sleep
SMN- Shockwave or Landslide or Crimson Cyclone, Miasma
MCH- Stun Gun, Blast Shot, Blank, Head Graze, Suppressive fire
BRD- Blunt Arrow, Blast Shot
DRG- Spineshatter Dive, Leg Sweep
Every DPS has multiple CC abilities at their disposal. Some are better than others of course. A dps should be more than capable of generating 3 seconds of interruption. If one cant bait out the Purify before using secondary/tertiary CCs, then we aren't talking about a good dps vs a good healer.
Also, its only ad hominem if I insult you as opposed to engaging with your argument. As you can read in my earlier posts, I effectively did both.