Stop queuing for PotD if you don't intend to DPS at all.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

To actually try to contribute to this thread....This has become a flame war against healers. A healer that only heals is playing their role as intended. If they only throw out heals and there aren't any wipes, then job done. Is it optimal game play? Absolutely not. Would it go by faster if they did dps? Absolutely. Just my 2 cents.

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I wish I could have liked this post more than once. That was basically the point that I was trying to make.

I don't see why people want to argue about this? o_O

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

Actually (since no one else pointed it out), last I checked it was not against ToS to kick people for having a difference in playstyles. You can complain and report all you want, but the gms are very unlikely to do anything about your complaint of getting kicked.

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Then it should be an offence. It encourages bullying. I actually thought there were only a couple of reasons on the kick list. I dont see 'doesnt play how i want him to' there

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then it should be an offence.

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Not how it works. Your ideals aren't SE's rules.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

It encourages bullying.

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Social expectations to do more than drag your feet in group activities isn't bullying. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

'doesnt play how i want him to'

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What is: "completely missing the point and trying to demonize the other side?"

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Your complaint appears to be valid, but the subject of your complaint is more accurately described as "bad players trying to tell me what to do." Optimal healer gameplay is not one or both healers deciding to go HAM on what they feel like doing and leaving their partner to do 100% of what they didn't feel like doing.

If the AST hadn't set you up to be in a bad spot by refusing to do their part, and if they had been able to do their job correctly, you wouldn't have had such a problem. The bit about good healers using their full kits goes both ways; no good healer tunnels in exclusively on healing or on DPS.

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Ahh your both seeing the difficulteis ensuing from the expections of others. Added to the fact that ppeople just like complaining about other people. What better way than to complain about a healer that doesnt dps. Such an easy way to bully someone. Everyone's bound to agree

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

What is: "completely missing the point and trying to demonize the other side?"

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Hmm all Ive seen so far is healers that dont dps demonized, Im just pointing out their side of things too.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Not how it works. Your ideals aren't SE's rules.



Social expectations to do more than drag your feet in group activities isn't bullying. Sorry.

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Then Im not sure what you do call bullying, or even if you are aware of the many types of bullying that there are. I would say that forcing someone to do things how you want them to is actually bullying. Im not sure if SE has your values either

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then it should be an offence. It encourages bullying. I actually thought there were only a couple of reasons on the kick list. I dont see 'doesnt play how i want him to' there

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Does not mean people can't kick for differences in playstyle. I've seen plenty of topics like this on the forums, some where they have quotes from gms. And it does not encourage bullying. I pay a sub, just like you and many others. If you are holding everyone back, because "that's not how I like to play" and everyone in the group wants someone to find a healer who plays like them, they have that right.

Wants to find a healer who***

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Hmm all Ive seen so far is healers that dont dps demonized, Im just pointing out their side of things too.

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Where though?

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Where though?

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You serious? Or just not seen all the posts that state that healers who heal are idle, or being carried etc.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Ahh your both seeing the difficulteis ensuing from the expections of others. Added to the fact that ppeople just like complaining about other people. What better way than to complain about a healer that doesnt dps. Such an easy way to bully someone. Everyone's bound to agree

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I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Did you read and understand the comment I was responding to?

Im just coming back to the game.....maybe. I enjoy healing, but now healers are the hardest role in the game. Bad tanks who fail to hold agro, or dps that intentionally pull agro by attacking a mob the tank doesnt have full hate on creates problems. If someone dies because of this its "Heal better Healer". When did all the classes suddenly become elitist jerks against Healers? The Healer is the only one held accountable for their actions? Here is another example. A tank in a dungeon with the minumum ilvl lets say 20 comes in at the minimum, and pulls all the way to boss. His hp bar is dropping to 10% every 2 to 3 seconds. After using every cd the Healer can't keep up and he dies, or somehow the healer pulls off a miracle and he lives. He then pulls the boss while the Healer has 5% MP., and the party dies. Why is this the Healers fault? And why for the love of god are people whining about Healer DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Im just coming back to the game.....maybe. I enjoy healing, but now healers are the hardest role in the game. Bad tanks who fail to hold agro, or dps that intentionally pull agro by attacking a mob the tank doesnt have full hate on creates problems. If someone dies because of this its "Heal better Healer". When did all the classes suddenly become elitist jerks against Healers? The Healer is the only one held accountable for their actions? Here is another example. A tank in a dungeon with the minumum ilvl lets say 20 comes in at the minimum, and pulls all the way to boss. His hp bar is dropping to 10% every 2 to 3 seconds. After using every cd the Healer can't keep up and he dies, or somehow the healer pulls off a miracle and he lives. He then pulls the boss while the Healer has 5% MP., and the party dies. Why is this the Healers fault? And why for the love of god are people whining about Healer DPS.

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If you read the comments, you'll understand what's really being discussed. At least, I hope so; don't fall into the trap of assumption like some of the other posters here have, or you'll end up tearing down strawmen like most everyone else who has seen a comment about healer DPS and gone off on a social justice rampage without grasping proper context and intent.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Im just coming back to the game.....maybe. I enjoy healing, but now healers are the hardest role in the game. Bad tanks who fail to hold agro, or dps that intentionally pull agro by attacking a mob the tank doesnt have full hate on creates problems. If someone dies because of this its "Heal better Healer". When did all the classes suddenly become elitist jerks against Healers? The Healer is the only one held accountable for their actions?

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But in PotD there may not be a dps or a tank. Which is what this post is meant to be about. Not hate on healers but the point that healers may not always be healers in PotD.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Im just coming back to the game.....maybe. I enjoy healing, but now healers are the hardest role in the game. .

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It is because healer is the highest impact role in the game. You have direct influence over all 3 metrics of performance required to clear a dungeon/trial/raid:
1. Damage needed to clear the fight
2. Healing/Shielding to prevent deaths
3. Performing mechanics to prevent wipes

No other class is equal to a good healer as a force multiplier to party effectiveness. To disregard your potential is to rob your party of an extremely high impact character slot.

That's why you see carry parties very very rarely allow the person being carried to play healer, this is also the reason why it is so difficult to "help" 2 mediocre healers through punishing content as opposed to bulldozing DPS/tanks.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then Im not sure what you do call bullying, or even if you are aware of the many types of bullying that there are. I would say that forcing someone to do things how you want them to is actually bullying. Im not sure if SE has your values either

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Actually, the healer part of the Hall of the Novice straight out tells the player to throw out some damage spells during moments of low damage against the party. SE's values are closer to the players that you're arguing against.

It amazes me that people put in so much effort in complaining on the forums and attempting to defend poor play, yet they put almost no effort into actually improving.

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Originally Posted by Blonde_Huntress

I wish I could have liked this post more than once. That was basically the point that I was trying to make.

I don't see why people want to argue about this? o_O

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Because the Healer role isn't designed that way in FFXIV. You are expected to mitigate damage by whatsoever means necessary. That includes killing the targets faster, thus disabling their ability to damage the party. In fact, Scholar's whole toolkit emphasizes that precise point hence why it's usually designated the DPS healer. Suffice it to say, if a healer refuses to DPS, they forfeit any right to complain if tanks refuse to use cooldowns. After all, their job is to maintain aggro. Simply put, people get annoyed because every other job utilizes its full toolkit. Any healer who won't DPS has effectively thrown away a third of their abilities for no other reason than "I don't want to use them."

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

It's my sub, I'll play how I want.

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Kay. I'll be standing in every aoe and use no cooldowns or self-heals. If you fail to or refuse to heal me, I'll issue a vote kick. I mean, it's only fair. You can't tell me how I should play since it's my sub too. ;)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then Im not sure what you do call bullying, or even if you are aware of the many types of bullying that there are. I would say that forcing someone to do things how you want them to is actually bullying. Im not sure if SE has your values either

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It is not bullying to remove someone from the group if they are refusing to contribute as much as others (and since you're likely to bring it up again, this doesn't apply to people who are actively trying to contribute in a meaningful way, only to the people who choose not be helpful while they could). In fact, it could be argued it's "bullying" to selfishly refuse to be helpful to your group and hold everyone back. Giving good advice on how one can improve their performance isn't bullying either (as long as it's not done in an offensive manner).

No one has to accept leeches in their party because they claim it's their chosen playstyle.

Im not sure wether its worth posting any points at all here, because Im not sure if people read what is said. Things just seem to be taken out of context or bits are taken out of discussions just to negate or criticize someone else's view or experience of the game. It doesnt even seem as if you actually, play on the ground with the majority of players or are in some kind of bubble where you just play with friends all the time. Where everyone is tolerant and uderstanding of other's difficulties, where everyone knows wether anyone else is slacking or trying, and everyone has no difficulty playing how someone else wants them to play cos we should all want to play the same way right?

It's a very common theme on these forums. If you don't play MY way, you're gonna get the boot! Stop wasting MY time. I have other more important things to do. You're dragging down MY game experience.

Seems there is quite a lot of selfishness in this mMULTIPLAYERorpg.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

It's a very common theme on these forums. If you don't play MY way, you're gonna get the boot! Stop wasting MY time. I have other more important things to do. You're dragging down MY game experience.

Seems there is quite a lot of selfishness in this mMULTIPLAYERorpg.

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Yes I agree and feel that if tis trend of expecting healers to dps or gtfo continues with liittle understanding of how difficult it sometimes is for people, then theres not going to be much joy for many in the future. I just hope its not considered too selfish of me to want to be able to keep people alive, safely

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes I agree and feel that if tis trend of expecting healers to dps or gtfo continues with liittle understanding of how difficult it sometimes is for people, then theres not going to be much joy for many in the future. I just hope its not considered too selfish of me to want to be able to keep people alive, safely

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He's actually saying that you are the selfish one. You keep saying that it's difficult, but are you actually trying? Do people actually try to improve themselves so they can easily dps while healing efficiently, or do they just come to the forums to cry, complain, and throw out as many reasons as possible as to why they shouldn't have to improve and everyone else should just pick up their slack? Right now, it's looking like you're choosing the forum option.

The whole "it's my sub, I play how I want" argument makes no sense because, guess what, everyone else also pays a sub. And guess what else, it's also the same amount of money that you pay. You can pay money every month so that you can play however poorly you want, but I guarantee that no one pays their sub so they can actively carry around people like who think that you can hold everyone else back just because you pay money and believe that somehow your money is worth more than literally everyone else's in the entire game. Guess what: it's not.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

The whole "it's my sub, I play how I want" argument makes no sense because, guess what, everyone else also pays a sub. And guess what else, it's also the same amount of money that you pay. You can pay money every month so that you can play however poorly you want, but I guarantee that no one pays their sub so they can actively carry around people like who think that you can hold everyone else back just because you pay money and believe that somehow your money is worth more than literally everyone else's in the entire game. Guess what: it's not.

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Totally off the mark. I never said that I cant do it or I wont. You are just not listening. Either your not understanding my points or I wrote it badly. I have been trying to defend healers all the way along this posr, based on my own experience. I do apologise for having a selfishly different view point than yours

How about people actually stop to talk for aprox 2 mins before speedrunning with strangers then. I ran PotD my first time as a new player, and kept falling behind because I had no idea what skill did what and job skills aren't shown in the menu at all until you unlock them so I wanted to stop to adjust my hotbar. But the party wanted to keep on blast processing.

Communicate. Use the chat bar, it's there for stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

The whole "it's my sub, I play how I want" argument makes no sense because, guess what, everyone else also pays a sub. And guess what else, it's also the same amount of money that you pay. You can pay money every month so that you can play however poorly you want, but I guarantee that no one pays their sub so they can actively carry around people like who think that you can hold everyone else back just because you pay money and believe that somehow your money is worth more than literally everyone else's in the entire game. Guess what: it's not.

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It is really about people telling others how they should play. Paying your subs does not entitle you to force others how to play your way either.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

It is really about people telling others how they should play. Paying your subs does not entitle you to force others how to play your way either.

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It's also doesn't entitle you to force people to deal with the way you play. Just stop with the "I pay a sub" excuse because it's a very weak one and doesn't prove a point at all.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I just hope its not considered too selfish of me to want to be able to keep people alive, safely

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You still haven't explained how the goal of keeping parties alive runs cross-purpose to contributing DPS effectively and appropriately.

Or is that you genuinely don't understand how this works? I suppose it would help explain your attitude if you thought we were all nuts for stating that you could seamlessly work DPS into your healing routine.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

He's actually saying that you are the selfish one. You keep saying that it's difficult, but are you actually trying? Do people actually try to improve themselves so they can easily dps while healing efficiently, or do they just come to the forums to cry, complain, and throw out as many reasons as possible as to why they shouldn't have to improve and everyone else should just pick up their slack? Right now, it's looking like you're choosing the forum option.

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Healing is largely circumstancial, the ability to dps while heaing is even more so. Whether its easy or not depends on many factors. Someone like you expecting everyone to find it easy inevery instance may believe that a healer isnt pulling their weight if they dont or cant do it . Sorry I had tospell it out

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

You still haven't explained how the goal of keeping parties alive runs cross-purpose to contributing DPS effectively and appropriately.

Or is that you genuinely don't understand how this works? I suppose it would help explain your attitude if you thought we were all nuts for stating that you could seamlessly work DPS into your healing routine.

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I undrstand comletely how it works. Im not sure others understand that its not so 'easy' to do. Resulting in healers being bullied into doing or trying to for fear of being booted out. Even when its clear to a healer that the instance needs heals not dps. As in thunda cat's case above. In this post people were asking if its mandatory in potd. I wasnt there I just saw posts about healers being idle if they dont dps. It isnt alwys the case but gives an excuse to complain I guess

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

It's also doesn't entitle you to force people to deal with the way you play. Just stop with the "I pay a sub" excuse because it's a very weak one and doesn't prove a point at all.

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I pay for my subs to enjoy the game not to be controlled by other people. You guys should chill about how others play

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I pay for my subs to enjoy the game not to be controlled by other people. You guys should chill about how others play

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I pay for my subs to enjoy the game not to carry people who want to put in as little effort as possible. You should chill about how others play.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

The whole "it's my sub, I play how I want" argument makes no sense because, guess what, everyone else also pays a sub. And guess what else, it's also the same amount of money that you pay.

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This isnt entirely true......I pay for my wife's sub. Which means I pay more for the game than you do, so you have to conform your playstyle to how I want you to play, or gtfo, :p.

On a serious note, please don't skew my words, Hood Rat. I was just pointing out the general attitude in the game regarding playstyles. Yes the argument can go both ways. However, it's mostly seen as if your not playing your class as a savage raider, you're garbage and going to be vote kicked.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I pay for my subs to enjoy the game not to carry people who want to put in as little effort as possible. You should chill about how others play.

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Seriously, Im very chilled about the game, I just dont like seeing people upset by peple like you who have no tolerance for others.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

Communicate. Use the chat bar, it's there for stuff like this.

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You are right communicate. yet as I've said in this post multiple times if you have 3 healers all just healing you don't get anywhere. And sometimes when you say something to them they don't listen or they jump down your throat, because "they are healers they heal" which isn't always how it works in PotD. Everyone needs to communicate and understand what others are trying to say. This forum is a prime example of people not taking the time to understand what others are saying. Everyone wants to make the other party the bad guy.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

In this post people were asking if its mandatory in potd. I wasnt there I just saw posts about healers being idle if they dont dps. It isnt alwys the case but gives an excuse to complain I guess

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The posts weren't about healers being idle in regular dungeons tho it was suppose to be about PotD. Which is different. You jumped in and made it about everything else. as I have said before your argument belongs more in the should healers dps or not type of forums. You also act like you are the only healer but earlier I said I was a healer too. the argument in this forum came from the fights of "I pay my sub I play how I want" and also of people assuming people were talking about regular dungeons which until you jumped in we weren't. Sorry but it's people like you that look for fights... Can you find anything else to complain about your argument is getting old... Go ahead call me a bully call the rest of us a bully it seems to be your only defense.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes I agree and feel that if tis trend of expecting healers to dps or gtfo continues with liittle understanding of how difficult it sometimes is for people, then theres not going to be much joy for many in the future. I just hope its not considered too selfish of me to want to be able to keep people alive, safely

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If the role is too difficult, then either practice in easier content or play something else. You are basically advocating people willfully accept someone else gimping a portion of their abilities because "it's too hard for them." In leveling dungeons or mentor roulette? Sure. I won't get on your case about lack of DPS contribution because those roulettes are intentionally designed for inexperienced players to learn. When you've reached Xelphatol or Alexander, you no longer have any excuse. Furthermore, I'll straight up comm any healer who at least tries to stance dance even if they panic out of it. At least they are putting forth an effort-- one I hope to encourage with commendations. It's the healers who flatout don't want to DPS that most people complain about.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

This isnt entirely true......I pay for my wife's sub. Which means I pay more for the game than you do, so you have to conform your playstyle to how I want you to play, or gtfo, :p.

On a serious note, please don't skew my words, Hood Rat. I was just pointing out the general attitude in the game regarding playstyles. Yes the argument can go both ways. However, it's mostly seen as if your not playing your class as a savage raider, you're garbage and going to be vote kicked.

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How can you be complaining that most people here are selfish by saying

'It's a very common theme on these forums. If you don't play MY way, you're gonna get the boot! Stop wasting MY time. I have other more important things to do. You're dragging down MY game experience. '

When the majority of the player Base disagrees with YOUR inefficient and straight up bad choice of playstyle. Why don't you change? If anything, you're the one displaying the 'my way or the highway'
attitude as you're in the minority that believes healers should just stand there doing nothing.