Eight Fixes to Make These Changes Good.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Hey!! he's been fighting hard and the whitemage is being lazy >.>

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not only this, but if they use the ability when they are that low they've got messed up priorities unless they can survive on a whim and the boss is at like .5% and hes trying to zerg >_>

Wait what !!
Aren't you supposed to click a skill as soon as it lights up :O

:O I knew I was doing it wrong..

lol, You need pictures to prove to this guy hes wrong >.>. I bet if that picture wasn't shown to him he'll be all like NO IT ANIT.. and the funny thing here is.. He was SO confident that Ferocity II didn't consume hp at all.. I find this all funny ahaha. ~.~. but really can you stop the Theatrics now?

btw effects of plvling starting to show already in the community :D

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

btw effects of plvling starting to show already in the community :D

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If that was a Slight at my not knowing Ferocity cost 60 HP, it's misplaced. I'm one of the very few players of this game that doesn't get all of his classes PLed. I'm sorry that there is a completely negligible cost on a skill that natural HoT negates before it takes effect.

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Originally Posted by grandm

kiote, you do this for a living? i knew there was something about you. your tanaka aren't you?

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You should show a little respect..

Tanaka did this

The Death Trap (programmer)
Genesis (producer/scenario/game design)
Alpha
Suishō no Dragon
Yokohama Minato Renzoku Satsujin Jiken
Final Fantasy (game design)
Final Fantasy II (game design)
Final Fantasy III (game design)
Final Fantasy Legend II (game data)
Secret of Mana (producer, concept / System design, Scenario message data)
Seiken Densetsu 3 (director)
Xenogears (producer/battle design)
Chrono Cross (producer/battle design)
Threads of Fate (producer)
Final Fantasy XI and expansions (producer)
Final Fantasy III (DS version) (executive producer/director)
SaGa 2: Hihou Densetsu (DS version) (co-executive producer/general supervision)
Final Fantasy XIV (Prior to December 2010) (producer)

What have you done with your life?

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Originally Posted by Kiote

It would in no way mitigate a significant impact on health from a buff. If the impact of the health cost is not going to be significant then there is no reason to put it in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

My bad they do, its 60 health..

Pointlessly unnoticeable..

I used them and my health regened faster than I could look at my HP bar.

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New buffs could be just like this, "unnoticeable".. looks like they put them in the game thus far. So your above logic is wrong too :D

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Originally Posted by wind

New buffs could be just like this, "unnoticeable".. looks like they put them in the game thus far. So your above logic is wrong too :D

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Well hopefully, my having made this a discussion will ensure that they are.

Wow guy do you have an uncontrollable panic disorder?

*Give Kiote a paper bag*

Breath and relax

I wish I understood how people could possibly support Auto Attack for Archer Bows. Such a bad idea. They are going to have to nerf the damage so much it's painful to think about.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

Wow guy do you have an uncontrollable panic disorder?

*Give Kiote a paper bag*

Breath and relax

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Yea, that makes sense.. I'm clearly freaking out and not just trying to have a rational discussion that is constantly invaded by trolls..

I'm sorry you don't have thoughts of your own, but I do.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

You should show a little respect..

Tanaka did this

The Death Trap (programmer)
Genesis (producer/scenario/game design)
Alpha
Suishō no Dragon
Yokohama Minato Renzoku Satsujin Jiken
Final Fantasy (game design)
Final Fantasy II (game design)
Final Fantasy III (game design)
Final Fantasy Legend II (game data)
Secret of Mana (producer, concept / System design, Scenario message data)
Seiken Densetsu 3 (director)
Xenogears (producer/battle design)
Chrono Cross (producer/battle design)
Threads of Fate (producer)
Final Fantasy XI and expansions (producer)
Final Fantasy III (DS version) (executive producer/director)
SaGa 2: Hihou Densetsu (DS version) (co-executive producer/general supervision)
Final Fantasy XIV (Prior to December 2010) (producer)

What have you done with your life?

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your right, maybe my little joke was more cutting than funny. i have a lot of respect for tanaka, but i still think he would sabotage yoshi's games. by giving him 8 hotfixes to ruin a patch even before it was released

(sorry joking again, not funny i know )

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Originally Posted by Kiote

You should show a little respect..

Tanaka did this

The Death Trap (programmer)
Genesis (producer/scenario/game design)
Alpha
Suishō no Dragon
Yokohama Minato Renzoku Satsujin Jiken
Final Fantasy (game design)
Final Fantasy II (game design)
Final Fantasy III (game design)
Final Fantasy Legend II (game data)
Secret of Mana (producer, concept / System design, Scenario message data)
Seiken Densetsu 3 (director)
Xenogears (producer/battle design)
Chrono Cross (producer/battle design)
Threads of Fate (producer)
Final Fantasy XI and expansions (producer)
Final Fantasy III (DS version) (executive producer/director)
SaGa 2: Hihou Densetsu (DS version) (co-executive producer/general supervision)
Final Fantasy XIV (Prior to December 2010) (producer)

What have you done with your life?

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Yea and im sure if it wasn't for Sakaguchi Final Fantasy wouldn't even exist.

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Well hopefully, my having made this a discussion will ensure that they are.

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If you aren't Japanese your opinion doesn't matter .. did you not know ?

You do know that we won't be getting jobs for a few months, right? And not everyone at 50 plays 100% of the time in a full party?

The changes affect mages that are already at 50 just as much as it affects those who are lower level. We're gonna be having to deal with it for a few months regardless. And I still say these changes are wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Yea, that makes sense.. I'm clearly freaking out and not just trying to have a rational discussion that is constantly invaded by trolls..

I'm sorry you don't have thoughts of your own, but I do.

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My bad I just keep reading you cry about everything. Next time try not to blow my mind with so many of these "rational" discussions.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

A list of things to fix for these Class Overhauls:

Lancer is supposed to be a Dragoon, not a Dark Knight.

Conjurers do not have enough offensive abilities for Solo.

Reactionary Skill(Phalanx, Haymaker, Fracture and Feint) should not be class specific.

Mages do not have enough spells. Mages should always have more skills than Melees

There is a severe lack of Enfeebling Magic.

Classes are too closely aligned with Jobs. There should be a noticeable difference between the two.

Puglist Elemental Skills will not be effective in Combat against the Majority of Creatures in Game. (Low Damage + Elemental Resistance = Lower Damage)

Archer's Bow should not be an Auto Attack.

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i think this is the worst thread i have ever read and i read a lot....

These are all opinions and it won't make MY game better. just because you do not like it does not mean we all wont.

Please wait to play before you complain even tho i no its hard for you.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Mages do not have enough spells. Mages should always have more skills than Melees

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Well THM can just take Stone and Aero from CON and have all of the elements.

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Originally Posted by DNO

i think this is the worst thread i have ever read and i read a lot....

These are all opinions and it won't make MY game better. just because you do not like it does not mean we all wont.

Please wait to play before you complain even tho i no its hard for you.

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^this and DNO sig explains my points rather well.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

A list of things to fix for these Class Overhauls:

Lancer is supposed to be a Dragoon, not a Dark Knight.

Conjurers do not have enough offensive abilities for Solo.

Reactionary Skill(Phalanx, Haymaker, Fracture and Feint) should not be class specific.

Mages do not have enough spells. Mages should always have more skills than Melees

There is a severe lack of Enfeebling Magic.

Classes are too closely aligned with Jobs. There should be a noticeable difference between the two.

Puglist Elemental Skills will not be effective in Combat against the Majority of Creatures in Game. (Low Damage + Elemental Resistance = Lower Damage)

Archer's Bow should not be an Auto Attack.

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Yeah, I totally agree with most all of these, except the first and last. I don't think they've stepped outside of any boundaries so far in their LNC/DRG design. As more lore rolls in, I'd expect it will feel like a more appropriate fit. And, having ARC as my first 50 since launch, I've always wanted an option for ranged auto-attack. It would be great if it's toggleable, but even if it's not, I'm sure simply turning around and not facing the target would stop auto attack, much like a melee would do if needed to quickly stop dmg. ARC, especially since 1.19, needs all the TP it can get at this point.

The rest of the post is spot on, based on what has been currently announced. I am a mage at heart from XI, and primarily play CNJ in XIV, but these reforms to mage classes definitely leaves me unenthusiastic about our future. It's almost as if they just blended all the classes together to have all similar playstyles.. with just different actions. Mage and Melee have always been two completely different "feels" with completely different playstyles, and Dev's are kinda taking away from that by putting all the classes on the same linear setup. Though I have to admit, some of the melee classes seem alot more appealing due to these reforms as well.

Worst thread ever, comparing new abilities system with current mob's difficulties and settings. Everything will of course be balanced toward the new changes.


Also, there is no such things as "No, not having Auto attack was the saving Grace of the Archer Class. It's ability to specifically time when it unleashed massive damage was the one thing that truly set it apart from every other class.", multishot now does nothing, and a buffed WS will do more. I supposed you'd know if u actually play the class but no.. People are against you because you acts like you know everything when you don't.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
HE IS BALANCING THE ARMOURY SYSTEM + EACH CLASS ITSELF THAT's IT ; ;

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

FYI OP, (I saw this posted in another thread)

There are only like 9 abilities posted for the War classes and about 12 for the Magic classes. Still a couple missing

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i counted 15 for both, weaponskills/magic are included

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1 CNJ Abl. 1 Grants AoE to next enhancing magic spell, but increases cast time
2CNJ Abl. 2 Temporarily halves enmity and gradually restores MP.
3CNJ Abl. 3 O Increases attack magic potency by 20% and reduces healing magic potency by 20%. Effect fades upon reuse.
4CNJ Abl. 4
5CNJ Mag. 1 Restores a portion of the target's HP.
6CNJ Mag. 2 O Restores a large portion of the target's HP.
7CNJ Mag. 3 O Target AoE Restores HP of all party members within range of the target. Healing priority is given to those with lowest HP.
8CNJ Mag. 4 Resurrects the target. Traits may trigger prevention of Weakness and Brink of Death effects.
9CNJ Mag. 5 Creates a barrier around the target that prevents a fixed amount of damage.
10CNJ Mag. 6 Target AoE Increases the defense of all party members within range of the target.
11CNJ Mag. 7 O Puts the target to sleep.
12CNJ Mag. 8 Deals wind damage to the target. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
　13∟CNJ Mag. 9 O Target AoE Deals wind damage to all enemies within range of the target. Chance to dispel an effect.Combo: CNJ Magic 8, Bonus: Increased accuracy against target.
14CNJ Mag. 10 Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.
　15∟CNJ Mag. 11

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they said each job gets 15 actions, thats their total repetoire
ehhhh this is too much at once really for me to give an accurate opinion on, or at least i need to think about it more.
looks like they are killing basic attacks? unless they will be counting them differently as quest based skills. If in fact quest based skills are counted differently, that may give some of these jobs a bit more room to grow.

I also wory about the combo system being ignored, because yeah it sounds good, but will it work in all the chaos? will things die too fast for it to matter? One thing is definate though, all these are drastic changes, the thm has completely ceased to exist, con has changed a lot, pugilist is totally different, this is a whole new thing.

And it is true that now, classes are firmly tied to jobs, most of the jobs look like the logical progression of the same skillset, its not like pugilist is the physical fighter and monk is the mystical warrior, its like monk is just what its called when its higher level.


but like i said the changes are so sweeping, at this point its hard to accurately grasp, i dunno it may be good it may not be, but it does make me think that now may in fact not be the time to charge, i had assumed they had the basics in the game already, but it looks like the battle system wont even be complete by 1.21, and this is in fact going to be a long process, where a lot of things may change and change your perspective on what the game is about.

Eight fixes to something that is only written, not in practice.

Traits might play a bigger part than we suspect.

Also, for level 50 chars I find it's pretty OK. If the cap grows 5 levels per year or so we shoul be getting better and more interesting abilities in time.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i counted 15 for both, weaponskills/magic are included



they said each job gets 15 actions, thats their total repetoire
ehhhh this is too much at once really for me to give an accurate opinion on, or at least i need to think about it more.
looks like they are killing basic attacks? unless they will be counting them differently as quest based skills. If in fact quest based skills are counted differently, that may give some of these jobs a bit more room to grow.

I also wory about the combo system being ignored, because yeah it sounds good, but will it work in all the chaos? will things die too fast for it to matter? One thing is definate though, all these are drastic changes, the thm has completely ceased to exist, con has changed a lot, pugilist is totally different, this is a whole new thing.

And it is true that now, classes are firmly tied to jobs, most of the jobs look like the logical progression of the same skillset, its not like pugilist is the physical fighter and monk is the mystical warrior, its like monk is just what its called when its higher level.


but like i said the changes are so sweeping, at this point its hard to accurately grasp, i dunno it may be good it may not be, but it does make me think that now may in fact not be the time to charge, i had assumed they had the basics in the game already, but it looks like the battle system wont even be complete by 1.21, and this is in fact going to be a long process, where a lot of things may change and change your perspective on what the game is about.

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2 of the ones you counted were skills that AoE from a combo, that's it. That's not necessarily a different ability. So it's 13 for CNJ and 11 for THM. Combos are just extensions from combos.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

2 of the ones you counted were skills that AoE from a combo, that's it. That's not necessarily a different ability. So it's 13 for CNJ and 11 for THM. Combos are just extensions from combos.

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No they're abilities on their own right. If CNJ casts Aero > Aeroga then the combo effect (increased accuracy against that target) plays out.

Edit:

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CNJ Mag. 8: Deals wind damage to the target. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
　∟CNJ Mag. 9: (Target AoE) Deals wind damage to all enemies within range of the target. Chance to dispel an effect.

Combo: CNJ Magic 8, Bonus: Increased accuracy against target.

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This means that using CNJ Magic 8 then CNJ Magic 9 is the combo. This means that the combo bonus of increased accuracy will then play out by following CNJ Magic 8 (Aero) with CNJ Magic 9 (Aeroga).

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

No they're abilities on their own right. If CNJ casts Aero > Aeroga then the combo effect (increased accuracy against that target) plays out.

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Oh my bad. I don't get how a combo can make a spell AoE? That doesn't make much sense. Just give an AoE nuke that is weaker and a single target that is stronger.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Oh my bad. I don't get how a combo can make a spell AoE? That doesn't make much sense. Just give an AoE nuke that is weaker and a single target that is stronger.

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It doesn't. Aero is single target (CNJ Magic 8), Aeroga is AoE (CNJ Magic 9). Aero > Aeroga is the whole combo. The bonus effect is the increased accuracy against the target (target's evasion is reduced I'm guessing as an alternate translation). The two spells are separate abilities. You could cast Stone > Aeroga but it won't give you a combo or bonus.

Edit: As for the GLA attack from behind combo, some mobs might not move with the target (think big dragons in FFXI) so they could just move to behind and do it up. In FFXI some big dragons were best tanked from behind as to avoid a dangerous debuffing breath attack, would be nice to see some stuff like that added.

Also, you could team the combo up with a THM using their stun combo. THM uses skill 1, GLA uses skill 1 while animation plays for THM, THM uses skill 2 and stuns, GLA runs around to behind to use their skill and pull of their combo. 2 combo's there working for eachother. Could also work if there are 2 GLA in the team (one off tank just in case type of scenario).

From what I understand the combo's can't be interrupted by other skills/combos and can be started and completed by different people as long as they are of the same class/job.

Woah, there's already a thread like this?

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Originally Posted by grandm

things are alittle hazy here. from the note's today it would seem to suggest this, but from what we have been told in the past of how jobs work. when you get a job, you get a job stone. and when you put the stone on you get job abilities and lose class abilities and you get access to job armour and weapons.

but that is old info who knows how it will work when it is released

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Grandm hi hi /wave!!

Here is how it goes. You do a quest and get a job stone then equip it and bam!! you have all your class abilities and whatever job abilities you unlock from doing the job quests. What you lose is most of your crossclass abilities (this is still unknown if its all crossclass or just most of them) but you become even more defined in your role with that class/job. You do not lose any class abilities so don't worry about that... one way to look at it is like this. At level 50 you will have 15 abilities total and 10 crossclass abilities but when you set your job you lose those 10 crossclass and pick up your job abilities (which I think right now they show about 5 or so each job) which pretty much replace the crossclass set and make you a more defined tank/healer/dd.

I hope this helps ^^

The cat is bemused =-.-=

I'm 50THM and 50CNJ
I really like the changes I've read. I just don't understand where enfeebling spells went. I assume when they introduce a red mage class it'll go to them.

Also one thing to always consider is when level cap increases, 50 will just be another milestone soon forgotten 10-15-20 levels after when you reach the new cap full of new abilities. I think since we're rapidly approaching that time for an increase, they've probably got a lot more planned out up ahead and we won't even be remembering the 50 limitations.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I wish I understood how people could possibly support Auto Attack for Archer Bows. Such a bad idea. They are going to have to nerf the damage so much it's painful to think about.

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. . .

One, Archers having ranged auto attack at the same delays they have now would actually work out to pretty much the same damage, plus a little bit resulting from not having to deal with various forms of delay/lag. So, no, there would be absolutely no reason to nerf the damage.

Two, lack of a ranged auto attack is the primary reason Archers never get invited to Ifrit. Well, that and the whole getting-hit-with-a-nerf-bat thing. . .

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Your "opinions" as you call them have no real merit seeing as you have not seen how these changes affect the classes.

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Considering what they announced for changes, and what they said they were gonna do just before the announcement, and how they are always putting things together last minute... AND how the game always takes the minimalist approach to everything, it's quite safe to say SE has NOT had enough time to fully test this out.

SE didn't even make abilities/spells that go with their initial design from a few days previous.
How is it hard to believe we can't trust them to deliver a balanced system?

I'm not even talking about FFXI, I'm solely looking at what Yoshida has done multiple times, and looking at the most likely probability.

^ I think you will find that when most MMO's change large parts of its battle system it rarely releases completely balanced.

Just look at WoW after Cataclysm was launched, they had to go back several times and make changes to certain classes, this will be no different.

Dev team has said that its work in progress multiple times and the whole reason we are getting this info early is to get our opinion.

Wow you're wrong about almost literally everything! That's impressive!

I am a bit concerned about the capacity for PGL, CON, and THM to deal damage against opponents with strong elemental strengths/weaknesses, but on the other hand, different elements having different hats means that we'll have to adjust our strategies on a per-battle basis, which is interesting to me.

I can't even begin to comprehend why you'd rather have an Archer that is annoying and crappy rather than an Archer that is -not- annoying.

OH WAIT you're right about there not being enough enfeebling magic, they do need to take advantage of the opened-up design space they've enabled here and introduce a few new classes and jobs sooner than later. Well, I'd /like/ it if they did. But we have Sleepga, which is sort of the important one for a many vs. many situation, so...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dragoon and dark knight were combined in XII IZJS so it's not exactly new to the series to happen. I think it's fine considering they're not adding more melee anytime soon, and I think a lot of weapons will come before scythes. (Muskets, Katanas, Great Swords).

Conjurers have an ability that raises their damage output 20%, and two elemental magics, as well as sleep. Reactionary skills should definitely be class specific. It makes the classes more unique. Archer's bow is auto attack bc Archers have been complaining about their auto attack.

I agree with the other points you made.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

A list of things to fix for these Class Overhauls:

Lancer is supposed to be a Dragoon, not a Dark Knight.

Conjurers do not have enough offensive abilities for Solo.

Reactionary Skill(Phalanx, Haymaker, Fracture and Feint) should not be class specific.

Mages do not have enough spells. Mages should always have more skills than Melees

There is a severe lack of Enfeebling Magic.

Classes are too closely aligned with Jobs. There should be a noticeable difference between the two.

Puglist Elemental Skills will not be effective in Combat against the Majority of Creatures in Game. (Low Damage + Elemental Resistance = Lower Damage)

Archer's Bow should not be an Auto Attack.

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Where do you get lancer being a DRK? Because of like one ability? Get over it.

Armoury system DUH. CNJ has plenty enough spells in 1.20 and what they are missing they will get from THM.
I can see your point here for a change.

Try it before you knock it.

Agreed but enfeebs will be fixed in due time, they have to have some spells to have for a new mage class when they put one out.

A job is a specialization of 2 or maybe more later set classes. There will be quit a big difference from the abilities I have read. Yet another point I do not understand in your post.

I am sure it will be adjusted, it sounds neat at least.

Archers bow should have been a ranged auto attack from day one. That was my number one gripe about Archer since alpha build. For you to say otherwise is mind blowing. (Now we will actually be able to dodge and shoot instead of being stuck in an animation lock)

My suggestion to you instead of suggesting make the game more like FFXI, just go play FFXI. We got a new game here that is trying to be different and interesting in its own way.

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Grandm hi hi /wave!!

Here is how it goes. You do a quest and get a job stone then equip it and bam!! you have all your class abilities and whatever job abilities you unlock from doing the job quests. What you lose is most of your crossclass abilities (this is still unknown if its all crossclass or just most of them) but you become even more defined in your role with that class/job. You do not lose any class abilities so don't worry about that... one way to look at it is like this. At level 50 you will have 15 abilities total and 10 crossclass abilities but when you set your job you lose those 10 crossclass and pick up your job abilities (which I think right now they show about 5 or so each job) which pretty much replace the crossclass set and make you a more defined tank/healer/dd.

I hope this helps ^^

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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cat this all seems very realistic, but 2 points 1) i have not read nothing official, and 2) this don't take in to account why we need a second class to unlock a job i.e. gld 30 mrd 15 = pld

but as always the cat makes sense, and i could easy see it the way you put it

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

I agree .

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As far as archer goes I disagree, as we are rooted to the ground while firing, autoattack would actually make our mobility even worse than it already is, never mind the fact that shadowbind would be rendered useless. Ever played laser tag? even an expert shot will lose a significant amount of accuracy and prescision if firing from the hip or on the move, the same applies to archery. Not having a ranged autoattack makes us more mobile than we would otherwise, and being rooted would be an acceptable weakness if the devs didn't gimp our damage as badly as they did.