Square Enix: Please reconsider putting the Native American war bonnet attire in-game.

What tribes is it offensive to specifically?

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Originally Posted by Vantilles

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I wasn't making them my token. I was pointing out how someone who actually is Native American, unlike OP, came in here and stated how they were excited to see their cultures garb in game.
However, I do see your points. I get your frustration as well at the people being callous in here.

I find it hilarious that the Christian people are giving this a pass because there was a "Pope-like" bad guy on the HW MSQ and they are okay with. You know Christianity that has been a culturally dominant force in Western culture for forever. Its hard to be discriminated against when you are at the top of the power structure.

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Socks

What tribes is it offensive to specifically?

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Well, there are many different tribes with different beliefs. I couldn't go on telling you about how -every- tribe or peoples consider it. For example, my family's heritage is Potawatomi and were forced to mix with the Ojibwa following the Trail of Death. Specifically, the Ojibwa often find the war bonnet - and the use of eagle feathers to mark the above, as well as the belief that the eagle as an animal, the eagle is a highly spiritual creature in regards to the creator. The eagle acts as an intermediary between the creator. As a symbol it means wisdom and courage.

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Originally Posted by Vantilles

Well, there are many different tribes with different beliefs. I couldn't go on telling you about how -every- tribe or peoples consider it. For example, my family's heritage is Potawatomi and were forced to mix with the Ojibwa following the Trail of Death. Specifically, the Ojibwa often find the war bonnet - and the use of eagle feathers to mark the above, as well as the belief that the eagle as an animal, the eagle is a highly spiritual creature in regards to the creator. The eagle acts as an intermediary between the creator. As a symbol it means wisdom and courage.

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Not trying to prove a point, genuinely curious. I thought those style of headdresses were more great plains style. You obviously would probably know better.

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Socks

Not trying to prove a point, genuinely curious. I thought those style of headdresses were more great plains style. You obviously would probably know better.

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I'm always glad to help out. My career deals extensively with our belief systems. The spread of Indigenous beliefs, for the most part, is varied. The eagle is the most shared aspect of our creation stories, overall. The headresses are largely thought of to be plains people because, well, it's mostly the plains people that get coverage in the media or film - especially in Hollywood etc.

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Originally Posted by Seryne

I wasn't making them my token. I was pointing out how someone who actually is Native American, unlike OP, came in here and stated how they were excited to see their cultures garb in game.
However, I do see your points. I get your frustration as well at the people being callous in here.

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My apologies, then. It seems that I misread the intent of that post.

Sure, anyone can realize it CAN be an issue. But when nobody who could legitimately claim it is an issue is coming forth to do so... There is no reason to even consider it to be an issue. It becomes a case of "someone somewhere at some point in time may or may not have a slight chance of possibly being somewhat upset".

Also, when other people jump in to claim it's offensive, they're basically saying how we need to protect their culture because they don't know how to do it themselves. By coming out on behalf of other people to say something is offensive you're treating those people like little children.

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Originally Posted by Vantilles

I'm always glad to help out. My career deals extensively with our belief systems. The spread of Indigenous beliefs, for the most part, is varied. The eagle is the most shared aspect of our creation stories, overall. The headresses are largely thought of to be plains people because, well, it's mostly the plains people that get coverage in the media or film - especially in Hollywood etc.

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Makes sense, thank you. I did a lot of study in college of more western tribes, Utes, Paiute, Navajo, Shoshone. Just some white guy, but always found the culture interesting.

For the record, I wish it didn't matter. I think there is a big difference between wishing these things didn't matter and denying it does matter and a lot of people miss that. I just want everyone to be able to enjoy the artistic nature of our world and not piss anyone off.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Sure, anyone can realize it CAN be an issue. But when nobody who could legitimately claim it is an issue is coming forth to do so... There is no reason to even consider it to be an issue. It becomes a case of "someone somewhere at some point in time may or may not have a slight chance of possibly being somewhat upset".

Also, when other people jump in to claim it's offensive, they're basically saying how we need to protect their culture because they don't know how to do it themselves. By coming out on behalf of other people to say something is offensive you're treating those people like little children.

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Are you aware of how indigenous peoples are treated in North America? It's not simply a matter of 'they dont know how to do it themselves', it's literally a matter of government policy restricting access to self governance, basic needs and advocacy.Not that it's impossible - it's exceptionally difficult to bring these matters to light against a largely ignorant public.

These issues aren't taught or really spoken about. People actually need to jump in with these issues. Things like these aren't covered in the news or mass media beyond exceptionally large protests. Even if you do happen to live elsewhere in the world - how would you even know about these issues unless an indigenous person or an ally comes forward?

I'm coming forward and letting you know that appropriation at a severe level is indeed something that our people consider an issue and find exceptionally disheartening.

[QUOTE=Masquerade;3854975]Asking people what skin color they are is what would "take the spotlight away from legitimate issues." It's a question that is being asked as a way to discredit.
It suggests that if person X is not a apart of the race/culture/religion/ect. that they are speaking out for, then their argument has no merit.

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Originally Posted by Masquerade

Asking people what skin color they are is what would "take the spotlight away from legitimate issues." It's a question that is being asked as a way to discredit.
It suggests that if person X is not a apart of the race/culture/religion/ect. that they are speaking out for, then their argument has no merit.

It like last year with Rachel Dolezal. Shes a civil rights activist and was president of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.
Before she publicly stated that she was biological born white, but she identifies herself as black, there was that huge deal of people wanting to know what color she really is. Even tho her being white or black had zero to do with her work and achievement.

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Honesty, I am not going to get into the whole Rachel Dolezal because it is NOT the same thing. This person started a thread claiming that the headdress was a war bonnet there for square is doing a terrible thing. As someone who is Native America, I can clearly see it is not but a roach. If she identified as a Native American, then goodness gracious me, then she should know some basic things about the culture she is claiming. And if it is the clothing, then what exactly offends her? The fact that square is making a culturally neutral clothing? The once upon a time everyday clothing is now taboo? That is weird seeing how most of us love to dress up our friends in beaded clothing and it is not a big deal. She, a non Native American, decided she was going to speak up about an issue she knows nothing about to get 'merit points' so she can feel better. You had better bet I am going to wonder what her ethnicity is, because when it comes to light that she is just another non native speaking up about issues she doesn't understand it makes her argument fall flat and she on her face. Which I am sorry, this is an issue we face all the damn time. People speaking up for us and yet speaking over us. Do you know how damn annoying that is?

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Socks

Makes sense, thank you. I did a lot of study in college of more western tribes, Utes, Paiute, Navajo, Shoshone. Just some white guy, but always found the culture interesting.

For the record, I wish it didn't matter. I think there is a big difference between wishing these things didn't matter and denying it does matter and a lot of people miss that. I just want everyone to be able to enjoy the artistic nature of our world and not piss anyone off.

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You are probably more educated than most. Even if you are 'just some white guy', showing a basic level of awareness is commendable and appreciated.

Native Americans don't exist in the game, so I don't see how it could possibly be a Native American war bonnet.

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Originally Posted by Vantilles

-removed due ot character limit-

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Yea I can see how appropriation at severe levels would be an issue, but this... This is an outfit in a video game, that's far from severe. And there's several other outfits that are just as much of a "problem", but nobody is crying out...

But what I'm mostly saying is that if people are bringing up the issue for them, and none of them pick up the argument and don't consider it an issue, it doesn't exactly make the people bringing it up look all that good...

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Originally Posted by Tint

but using the colors of a specific tribe for the Kilts without permission is offending o.o/

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Hah, as if the Scottish have any rights over the kilt, we stole it from another "tribe" a long time ago, like everything else. :P

The only thing that would be an issue would the coat of arms, you have to pay the government to use your family crest, but that's a different kettle of fish. x)

Oh boy. The moment I saw the gear I knew this thread was incoming.

SE is trying to be inclusive to all different cultures and peoples. We have clothing items inspired by the world over - and now those more tribal cultures are having their turn at being included and represented.

You don't celebrate and honour diversity by hiding it away so no one can see. Put it out there. Let people see, hear, and interact with it. It makes the world a better place to share cultures and stories.

I’m kind of in the middle ground on this whole thing (which imo as a non-Native is where I should be) but can we stop making jokes/comparisons like “Well I’m British, so I think we should remove top hats, that’s my culture!!” Regardless of your thoughts on the in game headdress and regardless of what kind of real world headdress it is meant to represent, there are Native American tribes where certain headdresses hold religious meaning and are sacred only to be worn by certain people/on certain occasions. These tribes and cultures and their practices still exist today and face enough oppression and difficulties. That’s not comparable to some random, meaningless article of clothing correctly or incorrectly attributed to a certain culture, past or present.

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Originally Posted by D-chan

That’s not comparable to some random, meaningless article of clothing correctly or incorrectly attributed to a certain culture, past or present.

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it completely is. clothing is clothing in the end.

someone putting on a graduation hat even if they didn't graduation doesn't effect anyone who has worn one and graduated.

[QUOTE=Anselmet;3855105]

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Originally Posted by Masquerade

She, a non Native American, decided she was going to speak up about an issue she knows nothing about to get 'merit points' so she can feel better. You had better bet I am going to wonder what her ethnicity is, because when it comes to light that she is just another non native speaking up about issues she doesn't understand it makes her argument fall flat and she on her face. Which I am sorry, this is an issue we face all the damn time. People speaking up for us and yet speaking over us. Do you know how damn annoying that is?

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I can understand that. I mean technically every post on here is guilty of that. Each comment posted can be divided into of the three categories,.


1. It's racist.
2. It's not racist.
3. Be it racist or not it does not matter.

But no, skin color still does not matter for such an argument. Like with Dolezal being born white, does not effect all the work she has done in civil rights for americans of color.

Even with this post. Let's just assume the OP is of Native descent. Never had much interest in her heritage, and the little she knows is just what she can remember from Social Studies class when she was Elementary school 10+ years ago.
Now take hypothetical white/black/asian person X. Has a strong interest in Native culture and history. Took elective classes in highschool and college on the subject.

If they both weighed in on the thread, who's words would have more merit in this?
Native OP who knows next to nothing about it? Or white/black/asian person who devoted years into learning about Native history-to-present day?

EDIT
He must have removed his post or something. The quote bubble say's that I am quoting myself, when those words belong to another users.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it completely is. clothing is clothing in the end.

someone putting on a graduation hat even if they didn't graduation doesn't effect anyone who has worn one and graduated.

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Graduation isn't a religious/cultural ceremony and graduates are not an oppressed group of people. Graduation caps have a ceremonial meaning, but it is not a religious/sacred one. Breaking a social norm by wearing a graduation cap outside of a graduation is not an accurate comparison to stomping all over a culture/religion by wearing their holy artifacts incorrectly. You can be okay with both of those things (though I think that speaks measures about your character, and not in a good way), but they are not the same.

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Originally Posted by thorkellthetall

The last time I wandered into these forums and saw someone get offended, square changed the name of the savage t9 achievement. Who knows what they'll do in response to this thread which is 19 pages longer than that one got to before being locked.

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I mean... That's a fairly minor and easy change. This one not so much.

I'm native, specifically Cree. My band is the Bigstone Cree Nation. My mother grew up being teased for what she was, and my grandmother was taken away as a child from her parents and was raised in a residential school. So, my two cents? Yeah, this is offensive, and gross.

I'm not nearly eloquent enough to properly stress just how important headdresses are, I know that. But here are some quotes from people who are. Please, even if you disagree with what I'm saying, give me a chance and read this article.

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I have to wonder just how many of the people in this thread throwing accusations of "SWJism" would throw a hissy fit if they saw some 16-year-old kid wearing a full-on military combat uniform as a Halloween costume, or even just to "look cool". It's similar, in a way. They both have significant cultural value to the culture they belong to, and it's upsetting to see them stripped of that value.

It's not the same thing as a cowboy outfit, either; these aren't "costumes" used by our ancestors long since passed. They're in use today. We're not dead and gone, we're very much around. People still use these kinds of outfits all the time! Powwows aren't some long-since-forgotten event; I went to one just last month!

We're still here, our culture is still here, and ripping our culture from us, when we've already had so much of it taken away, is not okay.

I don't care if you respect or disrespect a religion as long as you're applying the rules equally.

Nobody seems upset that a LOT of HW gear is clearly inspired by the sacred vestments of the Catholic Church. Why are you only upset about war bonnets? What makes you able to determine which religious clothing items are or aren't offensive to include? Do you think Catholics have never been oppressed?

This whole thing smells rank of hypocrisy and there's nothing I dislike more than virtue signalling hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Saharan

I have to wonder just how many of the people in this thread throwing accusations of "SWJism" would throw a hissy fit if they saw some 16-year-old kid wearing a full-on military combat uniform as a Halloween costume, or even just to "look cool".

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I wouldn't care tbh. Who cares what a little kid is wearing? Who cares what someone in a fantasy video game is wearing? There are so many more important things in my life than worrying about others' fashion choices.

This is just like the time the Boston Museum of Fine Arts came under fire for letting non Asians wear Kimono as part of one of their exhibits. The people least offended by the whole thing? Actual Japanese people. They were happy to share their culture.

If you wanted to complain about Native American culture being appropriated in this game you should've done it when the Vanu were introduced along with the Haka dance. You're late to the game and now y'all just look like the sum total of your cultural knowledge is that you saw an injun on a stamp once.

And yes I know it's Maori, but you're not seriously going to try to argue that one indigenous tribe is somehow better than another.

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Originally Posted by Saharan

We're still here, our culture is still here, and ripping our culture from us, when we've already had so much of it taken away, is not okay.

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SE never claimed it to be native American. You are making an assumption of what is behind these outfits in the game.

FFXI had turbans, do you see Punjabi people complaining about that? They are very much still around. How bout the Kimonos in game? No one complaining about that...this game would NEVER put something in to make fun of it and mock people...

It's a headdress yes, but please stop thinking you are the only culture that could ever exist to wear such a thing. NOW if they said it was native American and basically pissed all over it, then yeah...that would be awful. But SE never SAID what this is..its a piece of art in a game.

Though if we're gonna share family sob stories, all of my ancestors were the "undesirable" europeans (Irish, Polish) who migrated to the US for a better life at the turn of the century. My great-grandparents hardly spoke English. They survived a lot of hardship. But you know what? If I had a cow over every time I saw someone wearing a tacky "kiss me I'm Irish" shirt drinking green beer on St. Patrick's Day I'd get nothing done.

I am not Native American so I don't know how people feel about this, but is it not now more of a support putting these things into the game. I mean we shouldn't forget what happened and now with so few Native American tribes around, is it not more of a celebration of their culture and a reminder to others that this shouldn't happen again?

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Originally Posted by Saharan

2/2

I have to wonder just how many of the people in this thread throwing accusations of "SWJism" would throw a hissy fit if they saw some 16-year-old kid wearing a full-on military combat uniform as a Halloween costume, or even just to "look cool". It's similar, in a way.

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I enjoyed reading your posts, but the only thing I disagree with is people getting up in arms if a child wore a military combat uniform. They don't.

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My family is almost entirely Dutch, and a town perhaps an hour away has a yearly festival called the Tulip Festival. Everybody from the town participates in the festival, and almost everybody dresses up in traditional Dutch clothing - even people who are not from the region. I'll reiterate and say, being Dutch is my heritage; and seeing Vietnamese and Blacks dressed up in the clogs and Dutch clothing was in no way offensive to me. But, perhaps that is because we wanted to share our heritage. I smiled whenever I saw a little boy or girl trying to walk in clogs. Imagine what it would've been like if instead of feeling happy that others were sharing in my heritage, I would be furious. Those children surely don't know what those songs meant, or why everybody cleaned the streets at the end of the festival.

The thing is, you get no harm from the inclusion in the game. The attire cannot be altered in anyway once released (atleast not by players), so it's not like people can take a leek on it, and change it into a bikini outfitted with feathers and bead necklaces.

I realize it is your heritage, just as Dutch is mine. But instead of trying to restrict the rich history and traditions of Natives (and any other culture/heritage/religion for that matter), why not show the entire world, why not share it?

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Originally Posted by cakesphere

I don't care if you respect or disrespect a religion as long as you're applying the rules equally.

Nobody seems upset that a LOT of HW gear is clearly inspired by the sacred vestments of the Catholic Church. Why are you only upset about war bonnets? What makes you able to determine which religious clothing items are or aren't offensive to include? Do you think Catholics have never been oppressed?

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I am not upset about either. If you'd read my posts, you might have known that. I have no personal stake in either, and I don't think I have a right to say whether either should stay or go when I am not in either respective group. What I do think is that clothing of religious significance shouldn't be compared to a pair of pants or a fedora. You think the headdress is inoffensive? That's perfectly fine, but don't act like it's the same thing to Native Americans as a pair of sneakers is to a white person.

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Originally Posted by Immut

If you wanted to complain about Native American culture being appropriated in this game you should've done it when the Vanu were introduced along with the Haka dance. You're late to the game and now y'all just look like the sum total of your knowledge is that you saw an injun on a stamp once.

And yes I know it's Maori, but you're not seriously going to try to argue that one indigenous tribe is somehow better than another.

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Exactly, and even before the Vanu, the Ixal are basically the Aztecs.

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Originally Posted by Tevatron

I understand Japan has a different sensibility of what constitutes racism, bigotry, and appropriation, but given that this game is localised for different regions and given America has just recently been dealing with this exact issue and many Native Americans finding the appropriation and debasement of war bonnets offensive, perhaps this isn't appropriate in the NA-localisation.

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Then..just don't wear it? What happened to our ability to JUST NOT DO IT if we think something is bad? Why does it have to be banned for everyone because ONE group of players has a heritage of treating their fellow humans pretty shitty for the longest time?
In the end, it's a bunch of feathers. Whatever meaning you apply to it is your meaning only and does not apply to everyone else. Stop pushing your values onto others. If it's a sacred tradition to you that you do not feel you deserve to wear, don't wear it. For someone else it's just Ixal style headgear, who are you to ban them from wearing it because it has a different meaning to you?

I might think it is right for a woman to cover her body, does that mean I try and get SE to ban bikinis and revealing gear because I consider it inherently wrong for ALL women to hop around semi-naked? Of course not. I'll just not wear it myself (and maybe won't commend that kind of behaviour in other players) but in the end, everyone has (and SHOULD have!) the right to do with their lives/bodies/characters whatever they want.

You know that everyone in your tribe knows the meaning of the war bonnet, so in your community, the meaning will not change no matter how many people outside of it wear it as a Halloween costume or glamour ingame.

(All later 'you's in this post are general yous and not specifically targeted at the quoted post)

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Originally Posted by Saharan

I have to wonder just how many of the people in this thread throwing accusations of "SWJism" would throw a hissy fit if they saw some 16-year-old kid wearing a full-on military combat uniform as a Halloween costume, or even just to "look cool". It's similar, in a way. They both have significant cultural value to the culture they belong to, and it's upsetting to see them stripped of that value.

It's not the same thing as a cowboy outfit, either; these aren't "costumes" used by our ancestors long since passed. They're in use today. We're not dead and gone, we're very much around. People still use these kinds of outfits all the time! Powwows aren't some long-since-forgotten event; I went to one just last month!

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Headdresses are very much costumes. Ceremonial gear of any kind is by definition a costume.

By contrast, a cowboy outfit is NOT a costume. Cowboys wear leather because it's plentiful. Leather is actually very good for outdoor wear, since it doesn't get soggy from your sweat and protects you from various work related injuries. It's obviously become more glorified by media, but it's still practical work attire, since your biggest enemies in extended outdoor work are sun and sweat.

I know this because I'm in the US Army, and the US Army HATES their uniform because it's the exact opposite of practical. It is the worst uniform ever made. It is scratchy, doesn't breathe, doesn't fit right, doesn't keep you warm, takes forever to dry if it gets wet, the velcro stops working anywhere from a few months to the day after you get it, ironing or steaming it is against regulations because it neutralizes the chemical treatments, and it's poorly sewn by military prisoners in Ft Leavenworth. So most of the time it looks like we ARE that 16 year old who got a uniform out of the dumpster. It's very difficult for us to respect the uniform when the uniforms (and the people who designed them) don't respect us. Although I hear the Navy has a really nice work uniform. With denim.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

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If you look throughout the series as a whole, organized religions in the various Final Fantasy games don't usually fare very well. But that's the an entirely different discussion. Game theory did a video on it you might want to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLhiWw3pzQk

First the wrangler's set and now the war bonnet, clearly SE just wants to let Bards and Machinists play Cowboys and Indians.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

If you look throughout the series as a whole, organized religions in the various Final Fantasy games don't usually fare very well. But that's the an entirely different discussion. Game theory did a video on it you might want to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLhiWw3pzQk

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Yeah, I'm a fan of the series. Tactics and X were particularly rough.

But I also understand the context. Eastern Philosophy often butts heads with Western more organized religion, and these games are made in Japan. It's a meeting of two different cultures and anyone who looks at it through that perspective doesn't take offense. It's pretty understandable.

Normally I don't post in threads like this, but I'll make an exception becuase I want point out there is a ethnic styled outfit that wasn't supposed to be in the JP/EU/NA clients. One that was mentioned in the same live letter that revealed the War Bonnet, and one that the posters basically had to fight tooth and nail to get in these clients in the first place. I feel the latter detail is important, as well as the existence of native inspired elements (The Ixal and Vanu Vanu, not to mention Quetzacoatl being a summon in other FF games) and other ethnic outfits in the game, both with no outrage to their inclusion (and before you mention the Sundrop Dance I want to remind you that its mere existence wasn't the contentious part, it was how the emote looked in female characters)

I'm gonna go back to lurking this thread now

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Originally Posted by Shofie

I'll try to keep this as succinct as possible.

War bonnets are extremely sensitive cultural items that are generally "restricted" items. That is, it is offensive for non-Native Americans to wear them, or anyone to wear them who hasn't earned the right to do so.

They are earned through acts of heroism and putting them in the game where player characters can access them at all is trampling all over Native Americans.

Native American cultural attire is not a costume.

Especiallythe war bonnets.

Please consider removing the war bonnet from the upcoming patch. It is deeply offensive and racist to include it.

Thank you.

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Why. Just why. This doesn't fit the lore of the game and is just shoehorning something in to satisfy some political correctness or other.

Just say NO!.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Why. Just why. This doesn't fit the lore of the game and is just shoehorning something in to satisfy some political correctness or other.

Just say NO!.

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We have two tribal beast tribes in the game... The Vanu and Ixali are both based off a mix of aboriginal cultures.