As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Megotaku

They have to design new healing archetypes around this Conjurer-only ability.

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This is really the only issue I have with Job kits in XIV. It's silly that several class abilities are considered standard across jobs. Other candidates include Protect, Blood for Blood, and Provoke. These core mechanics should've been built into all Jobs the same way other core abilities are. I don't need to cross-class Cure as an AST or SCH.

It's a horrible idea to stomp out healer DPS entirely. The game is designed in a way that doesn't require healer DPS. You aren't going to cause a wipe if you don't, but you're rewarded if you do.Cleric Stance was a bad idea to begin with, as Healer DPS should've been built off MND. The difficulty of stance dancing isn't healthy in the big picture, especially when deactivating Cleric Stance can get really buggy.

I don't care for dps check, but for WHM, at least use Holy to stun those mob! Those 5 seconds of stun is already helpful to save tank draining their HP.

Back from a Roulette Snowcloak. Tank & 2xDPS new to the game/dungeon. First boss, no prob. Yeti, longest boss fight in FFXIV history. Dragoon was nuking all adds (preventing snowballs), and when we did get Snowballs, he'd kill them or hit them away from boss. A week later it dies, get to last boss, explain the mechanics and... Watch as the other DPS eats 6 Lunar Screams in a row (insta-kill). Dragoon from before is flailing around, so it's mostly me and the tank (and literally so when the Dragoon also eventually dies). The Bard at least threw in some MP restores between Raises, but the two boss fights took longer than a raid.

Would situations like that even persuade some of the 'not my job' people to chip in with DPS? Or would you just wipe and start over because it's not your job? No, as a Healer, it is not my responsibility to DPS, ever - but as Taurus above said, it is rewarding to do so (and I see no reason why anyone wouldn't). I do it any chance I get, regardless.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Back from a Roulette Snowcloak. Tank & 2xDPS new to the game/dungeon. First boss, no prob. Yeti, longest boss fight in FFXIV history. Dragoon was nuking all adds (preventing snowballs), and when we did get Snowballs, he'd kill them or hit them away from boss. A week later it dies, get to last boss, explain the mechanics and... Watch as the other DPS eats 6 Lunar Screams in a row (insta-kill). Dragoon from before is flailing around, so it's mostly me and the tank (and literally so when the Dragoon also eventually dies). The Bard at least threw in some MP restores between Raises, but the two boss fights took longer than a raid.

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You could've kept the dragoon dead if he was performing that badly, hell, i would've kicked him right after the yeti boss. One thing is performing badly, another is straight out ignoring mechanics. Lunar cry isn't a one shot skill either as long you don't have weakness debuff.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

You could've kept the dragoon dead if he was performing that badly, hell, i would've kicked him right after the yeti boss. One thing is performing badly, another is straight out ignoring mechanics. Lunar cry isn't a one shot skill either as long you don't have weakness debuff.

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Do you know whats a bigger DPS loss than a party member dying/ignoring mechanics? a party member dying and not being rezzed out of spite.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Do you know whats a bigger DPS loss than a party member dying/ignoring mechanics? a party member dying and not being rezzed out of spite.

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It has nothing to do with spite, a healer with mp while dpsing is a better asset to the team than a healer with 0 mp because he has to constantly raise that party member that is most likely doing suboptimal dps. Considering its lv 50 content, healers can do 350-400 dps on single target, considering all those deaths the dragoon was having, it was wiser to leave the dragoon dead and pull that dps than raising it to do his >200 dps before he died again (considering the mechanic he was dying to comes up every min or so) while healer is at 0 and most likely hardcasting res most of the time.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Do you know whats a bigger DPS loss than a party member dying/ignoring mechanics? a party member dying and not being rezzed out of spite.

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Nah. Ran into that tons of times where a DPS has such low damage and took so much damage ignoring mechanics it was better to leave them KO'd.

That way I could DPS more instead of burning MP keeping them Raised/Healed.

I thought of a great example to describe the situation with healers and DPS.

So picture that you own a restaurant, and you just hired a server. Said server does a great job waiting on tables. Suddenly, you notice a customer spilled something on the floor. You call to your server and ask them to grab the mob and wipe up the spill while you watch the front, and they respond: "That's not my job."

It's the same here. No, the healer's job isn't to DPS, just like it's not the server's job to mop the floor. But why would I keep around a server like that when I can hire one that will wait tables and clean spills? For the same reason, why should I recruit a healer that won't DPS, when I can find one that will?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I thought of a great example to describe the situation with healers and DPS.

So picture that you own a restaurant, and you just hired a server. Said server does a great job waiting on tables. Suddenly, you notice a customer spilled something on the floor. You call to your server and ask them to grab the mob and wipe up the spill while you watch the front, and they respond: "That's not my job."

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sure, i can grab the mob and wipe up the mess even when it is not my job SOMETIMES. but when i have to clean the restaurant every day and using the mob more often than waiting the tables, then i will say "That's not my job." but we have another difference here: you are comparing with a job where i get payed for.

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is the keeper in the football or ice hockey or whatever-sport also considered "lazy" because he is most of the time just staying there, doing nothing?

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Originally Posted by Tint

sure, i can grab the mob and wipe up the mess even when it is not my job SOMETIMES. but when i have to clean the restaurant every day and using the mob more often than waiting the tables, then i will say "That's not my job." but we have another difference here: you are comparing with a job where i get payed for.

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is the keeper in the football or ice hockey or whatever-sport also considered "lazy" because he is most of the time just staying there, doing nothing?

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these examples are getting out of hand...

Also waiters are always required to help around in cleaning, supply, inventory counting, etc when there are less or no clients to serve, now where have i heard this before. Same way as goal keepers don't receive the same training that a forward player gets and so that example would only apply if xiv healers had 0 offense skills.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The difficulty of stance dancing isn't healthy in the big picture, especially when deactivating Cleric Stance can get really buggy.

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Its been so long since I've messed up Cleric Stance, I almost forget what it feels like...

I have Cleric Stance on one of my mouse buttons for easy access but it also causes me to fuck up often when I'm hyper b/c of coffee or soda. I spam buttons a lot.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I thought of a great example to describe the situation with healers and DPS.

So picture that you own a restaurant, and you just hired a server. Said server does a great job waiting on tables. Suddenly, you notice a customer spilled something on the floor. You call to your server and ask them to grab the mob and wipe up the spill while you watch the front, and they respond: "That's not my job."

It's the same here. No, the healer's job isn't to DPS, just like it's not the server's job to mop the floor. But why would I keep around a server like that when I can hire one that will wait tables and clean spills? For the same reason, why should I recruit a healer that won't DPS, when I can find one that will?

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Queue into a restaurant with a waiter you didn't hire. Waiter sometimes breaks the necks of customers while trying to mop the floor. Do you want to tell the waiter to mop? Waiter can barely provide good service to customers, asking him to mop and risk breaking the necks of customers is a bad thing.

Goodbye.

Breaking a customer's neck has permanent consequences. Accidentally allowing the team to die when you're DPSing doesn't. The analogy doesn't work.

Goodbye.

I see no reason not to DPS. If I've nowt to heal and have confidence in my tank/team, providing DPS means things die quicker thus less healing needed. That doesn't mean it's my job, it means that I can make my job easier by assisting. Same for tanks who can provide DPS when safe, and DPS who can provide utility on the fly. The alternative is black & white mentality.

Only a few things will discourage me from DPS'ing:
a) Tank prefers huge pulls or reduces me to healbot mode and/or to mind my MP over extended periods, especially if b) also applies.
b) Tank is not tanky / gets sporadically chunked. If I can't trust their HP in general, I can't trust the game not throwing me a CS glitch.
c) DPS going ham / Pulling mobs before tank / Incapable of mechanic dodging - nothing annoys me more than having to stop healing the tank or DPS'ing just because actual DPS are impatient (or plain stupid).

If the above happens enough, I'll be very cautious with CS -- otherwise, DPS'ing 90%.

Honestly, I'm still leveling my healer, but on topic: I DPS when I know I can without someone dying. Usually, what this translates to is infrequent DPS'ing until my second or third run through a piece of content. Until I know what kind of output I can expect from enemies, DPS'ing isn't really an option for me. At least not at the level of the first pulls of Castrum.

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Originally Posted by MrMcKay

Honestly, I'm still leveling my healer, but on topic: I DPS when I know I can without someone dying. Usually, what this translates to is infrequent DPS'ing until my second or third run through a piece of content. Until I know what kind of output I can expect from enemies, DPS'ing isn't really an option for me. At least not at the level of the first pulls of Castrum.

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I learn by doing the opposite.
I DPS until "Oh Shoot", and no one usually dies. I did Cutter's cry with 3 new people Sunay and the tank died once because he derped (and was super undergeared), and a DPS died once because he triple derped on the last boss. I did more DPS than the rest of them combined and it was my first time healing that dungeon.

As stated earlier in the thread and elsewhere, even if someone dies and you're DPSing, the encounters will always be faster (sometimes even with a wipe).
As a Healer, you should be reacting to non-raid damage to your party members with very few exceptions of planning.
If you CS before a fight starts you can always click it off.

Healers have this weird fear of letting people die. Yeah it isn't great, but most of the time it barely matters. If you derped cleric stance and someone dies, you have an insta-rez anyway.

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Originally Posted by MikeWW

Queue into a restaurant with a waiter you didn't hire. Waiter sometimes breaks the necks of customers while trying to mop the floor. Do you want to tell the waiter to mop? Waiter can barely provide good service to customers, asking him to mop and risk breaking the necks of customers is a bad thing.

Goodbye.

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Any content that I would be willing to queue into through duty finder isn't hard enough for this debate to even be a big deal. At that point, healer DPS just boils down to, "how many minutes could I shave off my daily roulettes if I DPS as much as possible?" It's not like healing any of that content is hard. There are times at the end of the day where I was finishing my roulettes and literally falling asleep at my controller, yet I was still able to heal efficiently and DPS. I would conk out during the boss fight for a few seconds, and just keep pressing the buttons while I struggled to keep my eyes open.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

FTR: this thread wasn't really meant to address healers that aren't comfortable DPSing. It's meant to address the argument that it's good and acceptable for healers to choose not to when they otherwise could.

That said, if anyone reading this isn't comfortable with cleric stance, I would recommend experimenting with it at low level dungeons to acclimate yourself in a low pressure scenario rather than just writing it off as too difficult (if your not a CNJ/WHM, put it as your first cross class to have access to it in Sastasha, for example). It introduces complexity and fun to the job, in addition to the added utility! Best of luck!

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How do you tell the difference between someone not comfortable doing it and someone who can but doesn't just from the fact someone isn't DPSing? Most DF groups don't even talk, let alone get into extended discussions about gameplay and their motivations.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

How do you tell the difference between someone not comfortable doing it and someone who can but doesn't just from the fact someone isn't DPSing? Most DF groups don't even talk, let alone get into extended discussions about gameplay and their motivations.

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Because there's no one in the game who's not good enough to not be able to use Cleric Stance.
Someone not comfortable should be starting the fights in cleric stance, putting DOTs up and then healing.
Someone lazy will not even do that.

I'm not sure that's wise on large pulls. By the time they get their dots on the mobs, the tank could be dead.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm not sure that's wise on large pulls. By the time they get their dots on the mobs, the tank could be dead.

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A good tank will use his cooldowns... There should always be enough time to get 3 DOTs up plus Bane as SCH (spam your pet heal as soon as you start you can't leave it on auto), on WHM it's just Aero III on AST it might be more difficult I dunno, I don't know any ASTs.
This does assume adequate gear and adequate play on the part of the tank.
I learn from my friends, that's what they do.

Not the drk I had the other night. Very squishy :/

My argumment for this is usually this: If you feel like having a lot of free time, why not? If you maximize your effective healing sometimes you'll feel like doing no healing GCDs for a while so take your time and Stance Dance just a bit, it won't hurt. Of course that varies a lot for each party because you depend of everyone to be able to do that comfortably (specially your tanks), so it can be stressing sometimes.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

A good tank will use his cooldowns... There should always be enough time to get 3 DOTs up plus Bane as SCH (spam your pet heal as soon as you start you can't leave it on auto), on WHM it's just Aero III on AST it might be more difficult I dunno, I don't know any ASTs.
This does assume adequate gear and adequate play on the part of the tank.
I learn from my friends, that's what they do.

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Ast has the easiest DPS rotations of the healers. DoTs according to your estimate of mob lifespan, then Malefic II. Gravity (based on your mana management) if there are 3+ mobs since it'll be higher potency (540 potency with 3 mobs; also, immediate damage) than your next highest single target spell (Combust II, 450 potency over 30s).

My personal view on this subject is this. I main both tank and healer. When healing I dps as I can because it sucks twiddling my thumbs and I look like an amateur if I just spam a heal spell on the tank even when he doesnt need it.

As a tank, I love it when the healer dps's. It makes things so much faster. Most dungeons can be done in 20-25 min if everyone is doing damage. It's a safe bet to add 10 minutes if the healer is not doing damage when they can.

If my healers are trying to not standing around and have to diversify their roles what keeps me from replacing my second healer with a full fledged DPS? A SMN with eye for an eye, resurrect and virus would be a good bet.

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Originally Posted by irumancer

If my healers are trying to not standing around and have to diversify their roles what keeps me from replacing my second healer with a full fledged DPS? A SMN with eye for an eye, resurrect and virus would be a good bet.

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If you can solo heal progression content then by all means go ahead

I finally hit my moment. I got so annoyed with a healer who was doing -literally nothing.- He did Aspected Helios pre-pull ( which janked the tank ) and Aspected Benefic on everyone and just... stood there. We never -needed- it. I asked him if he would -try- to DPS to speed things up. He said he refused because 'most runs are garbage.' When we got to the final boss, he couldn't even heal around the mechanics and -not- DPS. He didn't re-up protect before the fight despite me warning we only had 3 minutes of prot left. Then quit. Just. Ugh.

Vote kick is there for a reason lol. People shouldn't queue up if they're going to pretty much sleep during the run.

Apparently people have been getting mad at me for dpsing as a White Mage so I'm going to stop. I won't dps anymore. I'll heal, even if nobody needs healing. That's what I've been asked so THAT is what they'll get.

Don't lower yourself to satisfy bad players. If you know you're doing well, don't pay them any mind. Or just votekick/ask them to votekick you if they have a problem with efficiency.

Though I wouldn't blame you if you started contesting the tank for aggro using healspam after he began bitching. I would do it and purposely go oom before he actually needs healing, just to piss him off. Nobody gets away with telling me to play worse.

I got that from my static
They mostly got pissed that I focus myself into dps power of healer and limiting my healing to what is required

Last time they told me "healer is here to heal" i got soooo mad
I end up exploding my overhealing cap on hummelfaust
And we never killed it

They were so confused and one of them ask if Someone was fighting with lv1 gear
It was hilarious
And remind him that with lv1 gear you cannot have more than 15k hp which we all had

Healing dps power a key factor in savage no matter what they say
Plus i don't need to be healing in fight where mistake is one-shot
I don't heal dead body

Lmao, people are making statics without taking into account how much a dpsing healer brings to the group...

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm not sure that's wise on large pulls. By the time they get their dots on the mobs, the tank could be dead.

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Usually there's just enough of a gap before you have to heal, especially when you pop rouse, since I consider Selene as more of a constant health regency than an actual heal.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Someone is salty.

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Someone WAS salty ; )

I personally DPS when I'm healing because standing around gets boring, but I don't really think you should force a healer to DPS if they're not comfortable with it. Particularly in dungeons they're new to, since they might lose focus and get tunnel vision or panic and forget they're in cleric stance when healing.

At the bare minimum, the tank's job is to grab mobs and take damage, the DPS's job is to kill stuff, the healer's job is to keep everyone alive.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

I got that from my static
They mostly got pissed that I focus myself into dps power of healer and limiting my healing to what is required

Last time they told me "healer is here to heal" i got soooo mad
I end up exploding my overhealing cap on hummelfaust
And we never killed it

They were so confused and one of them ask if Someone was fighting with lv1 gear
It was hilarious
And remind him that with lv1 gear you cannot have more than 15k hp which we all had

Healing dps power a key factor in savage no matter what they say
Plus i don't need to be healing in fight where mistake is one-shot
I don't heal dead body

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Time to find a new static...assuming the goal is to actually get through the content.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

the healer's job is to keep everyone alive.

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No, the bare minimum, is to Heal first AND do DPS. The Hall of the Novice even tells you this.
It specifically tells you to DPS when no one needs healing. That should be the bare minimum level.
If you can't follow the Hall of the Novice directions, you shouldn't be healing.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Usually there's just enough of a gap before you have to heal, especially when you pop rouse, since I consider Selene as more of a constant health regency than an actual heal.

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Actually in terms of Scholar, the best time to get all your DoTs out is as soon as you've put up all your shields and roused your Fairy. If you're overgeared in a dungeon then its not a problem much. But otherwise Getting a Stoneskin, eye for an eye and Adlo on your tank gives you enough time to get a Swiftcast Shadow flare, Bio II, Miasma, Bio, and Bane right after on the mob.