We're getting stat allocation back in 1.20, right?

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Originally Posted by Frein

It is highly unlikely that this system will provide the freedom you describe.

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Really? It works in every other MMO. Point is, there is no such thing as one correct build. You desire us all to be pigeon holed into one build? Really?

SO many of you think that materia really lets you have statistical diversity?

I am fine with those of you that want to be statistical clones of one another, thats your business. What I don't understand, is why everyone is so concerned that me and others with my view ned to be convinced that we would not actually have any build freedom ?

Now I can respect your opinion untill you said

"For instance, you're not supposed to ever emphasize survivability unless you're in a tanking position"

Unless you mail me $50 to cover the original purchase price of my game, and set up so that you pay my monthly fee once they start charging, then you can go shove it if you think your gonna tell me how I am supposed to play.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Unless you mail me $50 to cover the original purchase price of my game, and set up so that you pay my monthly fee once they start charging, then you can go shove it if you think your gonna tell me how I am supposed to play.

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Look everyone, he's one of those guys. What a special little flower you are.

I think they can bring back point allocation, but it won't be the same as it was before.

Obviously, they are going to work within the framework with the auto-allocation of points that currently exists, so you won't be responsible for applying all the points you were able to before. Since physical levels are gone, it's probable you'll allocate points by class (as per its rank) rather than rely on a giant pool of them that you have to stick with across all classes.

Even if you can stick 40 points into strength, as someone gave as an example, it definitely won't negate the importance gear that gives you an extra 8. Every point counts to a min-maxer and the very best gear will always be the most valuable.

"Spec'ing" has a long, glorious tradition in RPGs and MMOs, so point allocation is not out-of-place or unwelcome in FFXIV. The potential for a variety of strategies built with the same class can only be achieved with flexibility like this.

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Originally Posted by Stufoo

blah blah blah...
...If everyone HAS to use a certain setup then just make it uniform for the class....
blah blah blah

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The problem is that SE doesnt know whats good for MY job... I know whats good for my job. Example is that conj has almost 3k hp but a little over 1k mp..... that's retarded SE. I want to at least allot some of my points.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Really? It works in every other MMO. Point is, there is no such thing as one correct build. You desire us all to be pigeon holed into one build? Really?

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No, it never worked in any MMO. There is always 1-3, usually just one, optimal builds for every class. Doing anything else is doing it wrong.

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Unless you mail me $50 to cover the original purchase price of my game, and set up so that you pay my monthly fee once they start charging, then you can go shove it if you think your gonna tell me how I am supposed to play.

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Nobody can tell you how to play the game, however, they can tell you to spec their way or GTFO of their group/LS/etc.

I tottally agree with Coglin Play how you want should force to to play a job a certain way. I for one only play MMO's to solo ^^


(and yes my butt is very sore from the last patch)

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Really? It works in every other MMO. Point is, there is no such thing as one correct build. You desire us all to be pigeon holed into one build? Really?

SO many of you think that materia really lets you have statistical diversity?

I am fine with those of you that want to be statistical clones of one another, thats your business. What I don't understand, is why everyone is so concerned that me and others with my view ned to be convinced that we would not actually have any build freedom ?

Now I can respect your opinion untill you said

"For instance, you're not supposed to ever emphasize survivability unless you're in a tanking position"

Unless you mail me $50 to cover the original purchase price of my game, and set up so that you pay my monthly fee once they start charging, then you can go shove it if you think your gonna tell me how I am supposed to play.

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this. a thousand times this.


It was already stated quite some time ago more than once that once they bring allocation back your points will automatically be assigned for you.
YOU THEN have the option go in and REDISTRIBUTE the points however you please.
So there you have it. it will be automatic but with the option to change it up if you like.

I personally feel that i should be able to put a few extra points into STR and less in DEF because thats how i play. Why limit me?

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Originally Posted by Frein

No, it never worked in any MMO. There is always 1-3, usually just one, optimal builds for every class. Doing anything else is doing it wrong.


Nobody can tell you how to play the game, however, they can tell you to spec their way or GTFO of their group/LS/etc.

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BUT THATS OK THOUGH!!
i enjoy a good solo/duo/trio with friends as much as i enjoy a good endgame party.

with the option to change your stats you can go back to your pidgeon holed stat build for endgame grinding and again back to your solo pleasure stat build.

why is that a bad thing?
The entire concept is to build your stats according to your about to do.
and take the half hour consequence for instance. do you know how many hours i had to wait for anything to happen in FFXI? waiting a half hour for me to go back to uber tank mode so i tank something for friends is a small price for them to pay.

Short and quick. No they shouldn't bring it back exactly how it was. Im ok with a system where you are granted, say, 10 points per level, 9 are spent automatically and one you can choose where to spend it. Meaning by the time you hit level 50 you would be given 50 points to spend.

If they use that system, they should still enforce a cap, so you can't spend 50 points in STR alone

I will be on board with flexibility in stat allocation when there is as much a penalty for low stats as there is a benefit for high stats.

People can rant and whine all they want for 9, 10, 11 pages or more... The stat allocation is returning no matter what. I think it should be obvious it won't be as it was before, but rather you can allocate parts of it as you see fit. Take this for example... Your party needs a tank, using your extra points given you put those into the appropriate stats, bam, now you're a tank. Party gets a second tank and you don't wanna play one anymore. Swap your points back into different areas, bam, now you're still a tank, but rather a secondary one who can be more effective as a DPS. Basically you'll have a build that lets you change it at will slightly to fill a different role within the limitations of that class. Bolster your tanking abilities, or lower those and become a better damage dealer. I have absolutely no idea here why people must over complicate it when it's already set in stone that stat allocation will be returning.

I like being able to customize how my stats are allocated. I find the current system somewhat silly - it seems to just flood every stat with a barrage of points - the important stats for that class get a few more, but the point distributions are almost even for the most part.

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Originally Posted by kensredemption

I sure hope so.

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I can't really understand these comments in favor of Point Allocation. Stats didn't work properly for almost a year, while you were able to allocate them, now they work a little better than in the past (DEX is still useless) and you can really "feel" it in battle. So why all of you hope so strongly to have point allocation back? Did you notice stats differences in the past?

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Originally Posted by Frein

No, it never worked in any MMO. There is always 1-3, usually just one, optimal builds for every class. Doing anything else is doing it wrong.

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Oh yes it did. Ragnarök Online did it, and did it extremely well. There were indeed 1-3 builds at least for every class - and then there were god knows how many bizarre and still highly effective builds achieved through creative use of stat deployment and choice of gear, particularly gear that enabled the use of non-standard skills.

A few particular examples would be: the Battle Priest/Acolyte, a physical attack-based character inside a primarily magic-based class that capitalised either on high strength and vitality supported by their ability to heal, or certain items that converted high int to physical attack power. Or perhaps the Plagiarist Rogue, a normally physical character that could give mages a run for their money by stealing spells then using naturally high dexterity to hurl them back twice as fast. Or the Battle Sage, a high-strength magic-based build that relied on a quirk of a particular secondary skill that enabled spells to be fired in response to physical attacks. Then there's the Instant-Cast Super Novice, the Perma-Novice, Mug-based Rogue, Battle Mage, Magic Knight...

The long and short of it is that with the way it worked, RO's open stat assignment (with limitations coming from particular classes having to spend more on particular stats and the obvious downsides of having low numbers in particular fields) was able to support a stupidly large number of effective builds.

Another game did it extremely well was Mabinogi, which is completely class-less. Characters defined their roles simply through their stats and skills - and this is in a successful, casual MMORPG that didn't necessitate and would have died in the event it forced its players to breakout the spreadsheets.


So.. yeah, Ragnarök's one of the MMORPG's that defined the genre after Ultima Online and Everquest. Declaring free stat application has never worked serves no purpose besides illustrating just how little experience you must have within the genre. .. Lay off the blanket statements. The only issue is when the community gets stuck in the mindset that one build and one build only can be effective, itself a consequence of high-efficiency raiding and so forth that developers should be doing everything in their power to mitigate. Experimenting with builds and seeing people who fight in wildly varying ways within their own class is one of the things I happen to find really fun in this genre.

Frankly the only argument against free player-controlled character builds I can accept as logical is that the inevitable number of creative builds possible becomes difficult for the developers to keep in balance, the obvious example being in PvP. Not to mention PvE - one Sage build could, under certain very specific circumstances, rotate a skill that cast random abilities (including some GM ones like monster spawn control) until it was able to summon an endgame monster of their choice. There's also one Priest build that through a high luck (admittedly to the exclusion of everything else) was able to farm some of the highest-end bosses in the game using anti-undead spells.

With the separated class system I do not believe there will be any such thing as "Re-allocation" there will only be "Allocation" with significantly reduced amount of points you can allocate to each class when it levels up. You will not be able to change it after you have set it. This should maintain Balance. No on is going to put their 5 points per level on something stupid and they are not going to risk screwing up their class by dumping it all on one stat either.

*edit* Party roles are not going to be defined by stats. You wont need to max your VIT to be tank. That's what Jobs are for. you are going to be a tank? go to Paladin job. Going to be a DD? go to warrior.

How realistic would it be to give us total freedom when it comes to allotment?

If this happens, then all people would do is max STR and only use Attack gear and consistently get the highest DMG output they could. No one will be unique and nothing will be a challenge anymore.

Also, I am fairly certain they have already stated that it would be very light allotment. Which people are describing as a merit system because that's what it sounds more closely to, but not only that, it's what makes more sense to do. Expecting it to go back to being totally free is just ignorance. If you understood the stats, you'd quickly figure out how broken that would be with the new formulas.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

How realistic would it be to give us total freedom when it comes to allotment?


No one will be unique and nothing will be a challenge anymore.

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Wai...hu...wha.....what? Your saying we wouldn't be unique? Compared to what? You mean compared to a system in which every class is locked into the EXACT statistic clone of every other player in that class, also known as the current system?

Hmm, I hope this doesn't come back - I thought the gear and food was always for fine tuning your stats.

LOL! You are convinced that your uniqueness comes from the Stats Allocation?! Like in the past?! LOL! I'd prefer to see a real Merit System, and then with hard work you will can to boost a Stats. If you want to customize your PG you have Materia and equips.

...If only all Stats would work...

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Wai...hu...wha.....what? Your saying we wouldn't be unique? Compared to what? You mean compared to a system in which every class is locked into the EXACT statistic clone of every other player in that class, also known as the current system?

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You're not an exact static clone with very light allotment and if you work to get triple melded or more Materia on gear. Also, you're assuming with totally free allotment that people will be making all different types of builds. Trust me, they won't be. Also, with the way the formulas work, the end all be all gear at that moment will be even more limited since you will already have the ability to push your STR against or over high VIT mobs such as Ifrit.

What this will then do is make fights like that only about stacking attack. Even more linear than before. Also, not only that, with full freedom to allot everyone will be capable of 3 minute Ifrit runs. Last I checked, it was labeled "(hard)". In order to make fights like these hard again, you'll have to go back to overly complicated formulas that will require even more balancing.

Very light allotment is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Stufoo

It would be completely idiotic of them to switch it back, it was always an impossible to balance system. You can't have that large of a variation between possible allotments without either nullifying the effect of any +stat bonuses or invalidating the freedom of choice that you're supposedly given.

Let's look at how it used to be, with stats so wildly useless that you really didn't see a change in mitigation from 110 VIT to 174 VIT, it was just for HP purposes.

Now consider, that the game is balanced around the idea that any tank is able to survive and hold hate no matter what his stats were (which is what the allocation system was). This destroys the incentive to improve yourself through gear because nothing will ever give a noticeable effect to your "effectiveness". DDs just wore plate because it gave damage cuts they didn't care about +8 str from haub or +2 str from penance because you couldn't see it having any effect whatsoever.

Now consider, option two, that you need to have so much VIT to survive against this boss, or that monster. Why even give people the choice to mess it up? Why erase the baseline of stats and create more confusion? There's absolutely no reason to support that (which is why we have the stat system we have now). It would just end up destroying the possibility of what the class can do. Imagine a CNJ who put all of his allotment into INT because it is required to be able to nuke this monster, and is now no longer able to cure well, or a GLA/MRD who has very little VIT so he is just absolutely incapable of mitigation. It was very annoying pre-1.19 to join a party with a GLA who was a crafter so he had 0 str and 0 vit allotted so he was missing half his blocks with a scutum and had the lowest hp in the entire party. If everyone HAS to use a certain setup then just make it uniform for the class.

A baseline stat system based on level and job, combined with an additional merit system on top of it is the way to go at the moment. You know what to expect of that class at that level, at the very least they will be able to perform. You will never have a full STR/VIT GLA or PLD who just can not cure themselves at all because they have no MND or PIE. There won't be Lancers who die in one hit because they want the biggest numbers in existence and did a billion STR. A merit system will allow you to customize towards the role you want to excel in, and the baseline protects you from failing to balance yourself. If you are a DD marauder, you would go for STR, if you are a tanking MRD you'd go VIT, nuking CNJ would go INT and primarily healing CNJ would go MND. Remember, these are effectively bonuses on top of the stats they already have so they will never be able to not do something just because points aren't available. As I said, just think of this as a couple of extra stat materia bonuses.

On the same note though, you can allow gear bonuses to be more powerful. What good is Penance +2 str going to do in the old system if you could just choose, at any time you wanted, to have more str? You could choose to have 174 if you wanted and you still couldn't see a difference in your performance. It completely dwarfs the +2 str from the belt so who in the world would ever care? Now, +stats aren't so readily available and they can carry more weight so you are rewarded for getting any upgrades you can, whether through materia, gear upgrades, or this merit bonus system.

You can see the difference in physical mitigation with a single +20 VIT materia, pre-1.19 VIT did nothing at all even if you had 230 of it.

Seriously, why would you even want the old system back? It was horrible beyond belief.

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Well said Stu. :)

The old system (Total Stat Point Allocation) bugged me from Day 1 Launch of the game.

Think about it: If someone can shift ~200 (TWO HUNDRED) Stat Points around into STR, VIT or whatever they choose, what good is your measly, +5 STR Ring going to do for you?

The old system marginalized most Equipment and Bonuses you got. As Stu said, your Penance Belt with +2 STR was a joke compared to you shifting all your Stat Points over to STR.

The new system is a *combination* of *some* Stat Customization with our current system (where most of your Stats are shifted over for a good baseline).

That way you never have to be screwed if you were maximizing your Stats for, say, Leatherworker Crafting, and then your friends needed your help as a Conjurer (and you couldn't switch all your stats over) or then needed a Tank for another fight (where you didn't have enough time to switch all your stats over again), i.e., the old system, pre-1.19.

I want to see our Stats *mean* something again (like now), so a slight bit of customization is nice (which is what they're going for), but with most of our stats auto-shifted over.

I can't wait for 1.20 and 1.21. :)

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

How realistic would it be to give us total freedom when it comes to allotment?

If this happens, then all people would do is max STR and only use Attack gear and consistently get the highest DMG output they could. No one will be unique and nothing will be a challenge anymore.

Also, I am fairly certain they have already stated that it would be very light allotment. Which people are describing as a merit system because that's what it sounds more closely to, but not only that, it's what makes more sense to do. Expecting it to go back to being totally free is just ignorance. If you understood the stats, you'd quickly figure out how broken that would be with the new formulas.

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all they have to do is make stats mean more to more aspects of each class.

say int affected tp gained per swing, piety effected how long all buffs/debuffs lasted and their proc rate (including non magic ones, and mind effected total mp, mp regen and mdef.

while a melee could ignore all these stats, he would probably want some int, definately some piety or his buffs would end very quickly and he couldnt proc any good debuffs like comrade in arms, and some mind for mp, and mp regen and mdef.

similar things done on the reverse side with magic stats would have the same effect.

Simply the problem is too many stats dont effect enough different aspects of classes. As it is a lancer has no use for int as far as i know, and probably piety. a mage has no use for strength or dex, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mahayana

The problem is that SE doesnt know whats good for MY job... I know whats good for my job. Example is that conj has almost 3k hp but a little over 1k mp..... that's retarded SE. I want to at least allot some of my points.

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Wasn't aware you produced this game and know the future plans and adjustments of this game? You do know it's essentially a work in progress right, as they've stated over and over? Especially since "what's best for your class/job" will continually change as the game is further overhauled, including patch 1.20.

It's near impossible to balance a game that supports "builds", which is why the PvE is always bad yet it works fine for PvP because that's what the "every other MMO" focuses on. While I love Ragnarok Online, we can't use that as an example of it "working well" because it's one of the most unbalanced Korean MMOs to exist.

Do we remember Crit-Sins?

Do we remember SteelColytes?

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

Oh yes it did. Ragnarök Online did it, and did it extremely well. There were indeed 1-3 builds at least for every class - and then there were god knows how many bizarre and still highly effective builds achieved through creative use of stat deployment and choice of gear, particularly gear that enabled the use of non-standard skills.

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Yes, I played RO back in the day, and no, it didn't work. Many quirky builds were viable but hardly optimal and if the game had had a real end game scene, these quirky builds would not have been especially loved. RO was mostly a solo grind game so nobody really cared how you allocated your points. I didn't stick around long enough to see the organized PVP system but I'm sure it was dominated by cookie cutter builds, not battle acolytes and whatnot.

That kind of experimentation with strange builds can be fun the same way you may want to try specific strategies in a Civilization game (which is why you keep coming back to the game), but chances are you aren't really competitive if you don't follow one of the few established top tier strategies.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Wasn't aware you produced this game and know the future plans and adjustments of this game? You do know it's essentially a work in progress right, as they've stated over and over? Especially since "what's best for your class/job" will continually change as the game is further overhauled, including patch 1.20.

It's near impossible to balance a game that supports "builds", which is why the PvE is always bad yet it works fine for PvP because that's what the "every other MMO" focuses on. While I love Ragnarok Online, we can't use that as an example of it "working well" because it's one of the most unbalanced Korean MMOs to exist.

Do we remember Crit-Sins?

Do we remember SteelColytes?

Why would there be a specific build widely used if "everything worked well"? As someone said earlier in the thread, even with absolute freedom (game balance being impossible aside), there's always that one build that becomes optimal or most sought for.

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ehhh guildwars was pretty balanced, and it had many builds. RO did in fact have many builds, many viable for pve, dont know if it was super balanced, but there was usually at least viable builds per class, and it was more a choice of how you wanted to play, and what weakness you were willing to have.

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Originally Posted by Frein

Yes, I played RO back in the day, and no, it didn't work. Many quirky builds were viable but hardly optimal and if the game had had a real end game scene, these quirky builds would not have been especially loved. RO was mostly a solo grind game so nobody really cared how you allocated your points. I didn't stick around long enough to see the organized PVP system but I'm sure it was dominated by cookie cutter builds, not battle acolytes and whatnot.

That kind of experimentation with strange builds can be fun the same way you may want to try specific strategies in a Civilization game (which is why you keep coming back to the game), but chances are you aren't really competitive if you don't follow one of the few established top tier strategies.


Exactly.

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Not everyone is a min/maxer. So what if their are cookie cutter builds? I just want to have fun, and part of that for me is customizing my character as much as possible. I played a restoration druid in WoW back before the first expansion was ever announced, so I'm quite comfortable with not being 'optimal' for a given role. :)

I am positive they said they will read stat allocation. If so that would be nice.

Its gonna be a merit type system, so dont argue that much, they wont unbalance the game, they have the first steps done, so the next thing is to be specialized in some role but not loosing base stats, what im worry its whats going to happen to traits for stat boost once they abbolish the class marks.

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Originally Posted by Physic

all they have to do is make stats mean more to more aspects of each class.

say int affected tp gained per swing, piety effected how long all buffs/debuffs lasted and their proc rate (including non magic ones, and mind effected total mp, mp regen and mdef.

while a melee could ignore all these stats, he would probably want some int, definately some piety or his buffs would end very quickly and he couldnt proc any good debuffs like comrade in arms, and some mind for mp, and mp regen and mdef.

similar things done on the reverse side with magic stats would have the same effect.

Simply the problem is too many stats dont effect enough different aspects of classes. As it is a lancer has no use for int as far as i know, and probably piety. a mage has no use for strength or dex, etc.

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That's all really nice and stuff, but how would free stat allotment make that better? Sounds like you're taking one idea I'm shooting down and proposing another that's even worse than the first one.

Really? TP gain with INT? Longer lasting buffs with MND? Let's screw half of the VIT we'd usually take and put it in MND for a long lasting Sentinel. Sounds incredibly thought out and easily balanced.

The problem with merit or tree-based allocation is that, by design, you're locked in to a rigid build you can't easily make changes to, so you're really just stuck with what's considered "the best" build possible (or at best one of 3 of the best builds).

To me, that's the beauty of a well crafted point-allocation system. You can strategize according to the situation you're about to face and place points differently according to what you consider important at the time. If a new situation arises, it's simple to make an adjustment.

You wouldn't walk around in a fire-resistant build everywhere you went, but going up against Ifrit, you might throw one together if it wasn't too inconvenient. A mage might not normally throw a lot points into Vitality for more HP, but if they know they're going to be eating a lot of big AoEs, they may consider it for survivability. Or maybe not. But at least the option exists in a way you don't get with merit or tree-based allocation.

It gives you choices for the moment and opens a discussion about what works in a particular situation, not what works best in most situations, so build this one way and never think on it again.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

That's all really nice and stuff, but how would free stat allotment make that better? Sounds like you're taking one idea I'm shooting down and proposing another that's even worse than the first one.

Really? TP gain with INT? Longer lasting buffs with MND? Let's screw half of the VIT we'd usually take and put it in MND for a long lasting Sentinel. Sounds incredibly thought out and easily balanced.

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what to do with what stats is up to the developers the idea is to make more stats more useful. It was just an illustrative example, and even in that case, half your vit gone will effect your max hp, your total defense, in exchange for a few more seconds on sentinel?


also the idea is usally that in order to raise one stat really high, it cost way more than raising a lower stat. So while yeah vit may be better than mind in general, is 1 vit better than +6 mind? There would also be a difference between an overall tank, and a tank that tries to tank mostly from buffs. the buff tank would probably have lower overall defense, and lower hp, but it would have longer durations on skills, giving them a few more seconds and making thier defense be about rotating and stacking skills. So there would be two different styles of tanking for different types of tanks.

Sure people will always create cookie cutters and try to use other peoples builds, but that doesnt mean there are no other viable builds, or builds that would have a slight advantage.

The main problem is they would have to make it harder to respec, because if you can respec instantly at all times, people will just tailor make themselves for every encounter so if you wanted to go on a tour doing ifrit garuda and moogle battles, you couldnt just tailor make yourself to that one monsters weakness.

having a more rare or difficult respec would cause being all around to have a certain value, and being specific to have a different type of value.



Really your main beef seems to be that you want to min max easily. where only a few variables effect what you can do, if your really a skilled min max person, you want a complex formula that you can really build the perfect balance by combining everything just right. rather than just pumping strength and calling it a day on DD , or vit on a tank.

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Originally Posted by elreed

Its gonna be a merit type system, so dont argue that much, they wont unbalance the game, they have the first steps done, so the next thing is to be specialized in some role but not loosing base stats, what im worry its whats going to happen to traits for stat boost once they abbolish the class marks.

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they said this?

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Originally Posted by Vawn

I can't believe so many people want that old system back. That stat allocation system was horrible. Why bother wearing gear with an extra +5 STR when you can just change your stats to add +40? There was so much wrong with that system, I don't know where to begin.

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Because then you'd have +45? Do half of you even think before you sumbit your replies?

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Because then you'd have +45? Do half of you even think before you sumbit your replies?

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I think what he was trying to convey was that if point allocation can create stat swings of 40 points or more, something has to give. Either the points do very little and the difference between someone with 120 STR and and someone with 160 STR is minimal (like in the old system) or stats are meaningful and the 120 STR character actually hits like a paper towel and no +5 STR belt is ever going to even remotely close the gap.

wow, sure are alot of stat nazis here.

Those who say systems that allow you to alot your own stats don't works, appearently haven't played many MMOs. They worked for years, There are quit a few that work. Its either that or they are not capable of recognizing if a system works or not.

Its just funny how some of you say well we can use materia and the very limited amount of stat adjustment traits to not be statisctical clones. Like it or not your statistical clones. Its not up for debate, its fact. all 50s of any class have the exact same stats naked. If you think everyone will go with one build with fully adjustable stats then your aguement is generally invalid in the first place. If everyone will use a same build, they will do that in any system.

For those who say we don't need allocation then go on about this nonsense that everyone will us the same "correct build" as you claim, what are you scared of then? Lets us be free to make our own build.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

wow, sure are alot of stat nazis here.

Those who say systems that allow you to alot your own stats don't works, appearently haven't played many MMOs. They worked for years, There are quit a few that work. Its either that or they are not capable of recognizing if a system works or not.

Its just funny how some of you say well we can use materia and the very limited amount of stat adjustment traits to not be statisctical clones. Like it or not your statistical clones. Its not up for debate, its fact. all 50s of any class have the exact same stats naked. If you think everyone will go with one build with fully adjustable stats then your aguement is generally invalid in the first place. If everyone will use a same build, they will do that in any system.

For those who say we don't need allocation then go on about this nonsense that everyone will us the same "correct build" as you claim, what are you scared of then? Lets us be free to make our own build.

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"If you think everyone will go with one build with fully adjustable stats then your aguement is generally invalid in the first place. If everyone will use a same build, they will do that in any system." I don't understand this. The point people are making is that if given full allocation of stats, eventually people will settle on an optimum build. Yes, people will experiment but eventually a few builds will come out that will work the best. Since the game is being geared towards a party system in which people are being encouraged to play roles, a full stat system gives the illusion of freedom. If someone wants to be a battle whm then they're going to have a hard time finding a party to accept them and SE can't possibly balance the system to allow for all builds of any class/job. Therefore, a select group of builds will come out that will be party favorable.

Personally, I'd rather have a system that focuses on roles and encourages people to get good at their roles in a party. Also with the lack of people playing at the moment and with too many choices in stats, then it'll be even harder to make a viable party (can you image having to ask a whm/conj everytime you make a party whether he's an actual healing conj/whm? except now having to do this for every class and job)

Another point is if stats on gears are favored over stat allocation, then this makes gears much more important. This makes crafters a much more important part of the game. I want crafters to have a role. If equipment is negligible then so will crafting and dungeon/boss crawling to get new equipment.

Merit system will add some variety but not enough to break a class/job. It's a nice compromise. To have a full stat allocation, you're possibly throwing away a balanced party system, making crafters less relevant, and making questing less worthwhile. This doesn't seem worthwhile just to allow some experimentation with a kitschy class build.

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Originally Posted by Sole

"If you think everyone will go with one build with fully adjustable stats then your aguement is generally invalid in the first place. If everyone will use a same build, they will do that in any system." I don't understand this. The point people are making is that if given full allocation of stats, eventually people will settle on an optimum build. Yes, people will experiment but eventually a few builds will come out that will work the best. Since the game is being geared towards a party system in which people are being encouraged to play roles, a full stat system gives the illusion of freedom. If someone wants to be a battle whm then they're going to have a hard time finding a party to accept them and SE can't possibly balance the system to allow for all builds of any class/job. Therefore, a select group of builds will come out that will be party favorable.

Personally, I'd rather have a system that focuses on roles and encourages people to get good at their roles in a party. Also with the lack of people playing at the moment and with too many choices in stats, then it'll be even harder to make a viable party (can you image having to ask a whm/conj everytime you make a party whether he's an actual healing conj/whm? except now having to do this for every class and job)

Another point is if stats on gears are favored over stat allocation, then this makes gears much more important. This makes crafters a much more important part of the game. I want crafters to have a role. If equipment is negligible then so will crafting and dungeon/boss crawling to get new equipment.

Merit system will add some variety but not enough to break a class/job. It's a nice compromise. To have a full stat allocation, you're possibly throwing away a balanced party system, making crafters less relevant, and making questing less worthwhile. This doesn't seem worthwhile just to allow some experimentation with a kitschy class build.

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eh even with stat allocation the only way to go beyond your total stats will always be gear, so as long as people value stats at all gear will still matter.
This said, i dont think we will get full allocation, not that i would mind, but i doubt it, i also would hope we dont get something as crappy as ffxi merit system, which was like a max 10 points or something foolish.

I really dont see why so many people are afraid of stat allotments, maybe fear of making a bad build? but even then you could just follow the reccomended stats, or the cookie cutter builds people will eventually make. Ill tell you stat allocation exists in other games, and it doesnt reduce the value of gear in any shape or form, if it does so here, its because they designed the system that way, not because it intriniscly has to devalue gear.

As far as party making, i think in the future people will be able to define their roles themselves in the party, the UI in the 2.0 image shows charachters with shorthand names for their role like T1 A2 etc. point being you dont need to ask them if they are a tank, they will define themselves as such, a healer will mark themselves as a healer and when you search for one you will see them.

First we bitch about spamming 1, then get auto attack, now we want that back. We bitched about stats, they removed allotment, now we want that back. Lets just *** bring back tanaka so he can turn back time to when we had those, im sure youd all love that.

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

First we bitch about spamming 1, then get auto attack, now we want that back. We bitched about stats, they removed allotment, now we want that back. Lets just fucking bring back tanaka so he can turn back time to when we had those, im sure youd all love that.

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actually they always said they were bringing it back, and that this was a temporary thing they wanted to do while balancing some things. I didnt remember the date, but apparently they did say 1.20 coming back.

it does make sense in some cases, such as a pugilist who wants to spec for DD or a different who wants to spec for tanking, also their are other applications, like now vit effects buffs, some mages may want that, some may not. A healer will probably want vit mind and piety, and a DD mage will probably want int mind and piety. there are other examples, materia doesnt really give you the options to do this, specific classes have certain things available to them.

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Originally Posted by Baxter

they said this?

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Ohh yeah they are going to put things back as it was they like to work without reason changing the stat system....

You really need to pay attention of what theyre doing, why should they change the stat system?(yep because it was unbalance) so they got rid of all the free will on stats and said that they were going to implement the stat allocation later but without changing base stats, read the letters.

i never tought i could find someone that clueless, im gonna say it again so you dont miss this, they dont work for nothing, they did that as many of us know to have a base for every class, no more conjurers with 250 vit and 5mind and 5 int.....