The Fields of Glory (Shatter)

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

They listened to players a lot this year when they thought about what they can do to make pvp better.

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Sadly they only listened PvP-wise to Feast, they never adressed a single Frontlines issue.

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Originally Posted by FinaSel

I played on Japanese Data center and we do have 72 man Frontlines every day and the queue is very short after 6 PM.
Just yesterday I did Shatter a few times and the queue was about 10 minutes each time.

Do people in other data centers not PvP as much?

But even on Japanese data center, some people are not happy about GC restriction.

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No the problem has long been known to be a GC queuing imbalance. Aether seems to have a good number queuing but they do not seem to be distributed evenly enough that matches can fill in a reasonable amount of time.

A GC in need bonus and ability to see how many of each GC's slots are currently filled would seriously help players if GCs must be maintained.

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Originally Posted by Titor

Yes yes. Yes! 100% this!!

I actually had this idea, not sure how well it would work, but what if you killed someone and then got their contribution towards hitting the ice if you killed them before the ice shattered?

For instance, person x got to the ice first, got it down 25%, the node is left at 75%. Person y runs up to person x and kills them, person y then gets person x's contribution of 25% to the node, and then goes to continue killing the rest of the node, and they get a full 100% contribution since they killed the other person there.

That would make it interesting to go after people who were focusing on dpsing the ice. Not sure if it would work with balance or gameplay though but it is a thought to encourage actual pvp.

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Bad idea, do this an no one will attack the iceliths and the meta would focus on waiting for anyone to attack an icelith and then killing them.

Some credit could be taken, but not all of it.

To echo everyone else..... REMOVE THE GC RESTRICTIONS..... Seriously it's hurting pvp, It makes queues slow with the imbalance of members per GC queuing. Or at the very least like others have suggested make a "free agent" role to allow people to fill the gaps.

The wait time is killing a all new pvp mode, I think DF has also some kind of problem with matchmaking like in the previous Frontlines.
I'm actually sitting in a 110min que started this afternoon while other of my same GC entered multiple times, why am I starving on a dead que?

It really need to move out from the GC restricion in some way, there was a ton of suggestion and if you dont' wont' to break up too much it, you can allow players with different GC ranks maxed, to play for all those GC (available only in solo queue), this will be a "soft" mecenary mode that will improve the entire matchmaking.

And pls for the love of god, fix that DF. I will never accept premades having precedence over solo queue. Talk about ruining GC restriction even more.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

They listened to players a lot this year when they thought about what they can do to make pvp better.

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They somehow forgot about the non-feast pvp. So much for listening to the PvP community. They removed the PvP rank from gear and somehow made it mandatory to rank up to get PvP skills. Like what? How does that make Feast available for the majority of players?

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Originally Posted by UnstablePersonality

Like adding it to old seal rock achievements so people can still get them.....lol should of been done at the start since players always abandon the old stuff for new stuff and did, seal rock no longer ques and since the new mode doesn't count for the seal achievements they are all getting left to rot.

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Seriously though, can this be done? I just spent 3 months trying to get that stupid coat, and now I'm less than 20 wins from it only to find out the new mode wasn't added to the achievements and the old mode that gave it is dead? So I just wasted three months? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face now...So I seriously hope you guys fix that by adding the new mode to the old achievements (which should of been done anyway and planned for because it always happens with new pvp compared to old), waiting 7 hours and not getting a seal rock que is not fun.

They should remove GC requirements, right now it only promotes people to leave their GC to the one that wins the most while the others get slapped down, such as Immortal Flames on Primal.

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Originally Posted by UnstablePersonality

x

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Did you seriously just quote yourself because no one acknowledged your comment.

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Originally Posted by Titor

I actually had this idea, not sure how well it would work, but what if you killed someone and then got their contribution towards hitting the ice if you killed them before the ice shattered?

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I wouldn't go quite that far, lol.

Stealing an enemies entire Dps contribution to a tome would be pretty unbalanced, because that's potentially hundreds of points rather than just 5 or 10. In the worst case scenario, dps would be too afraid to attack tomes because all of their efforts could be instantly erased by one, well timed, LB. It would also put too much strain on the healers, as they would stand to lose hundreds of points per death. That's a lot of pressure.

As far as kill credit goes, I think the best option is just a small increase to the value of a person's life. Right now, it would take 14 kills just to make up the same value you can score off of a small Icebound Tome. If it were bumped up to 10, it would only take 7 to make that difference; so, actively trying to wipe out the enemy team suddenly becomes a viable option. The idea is to create a better incentive for people to try and win points off of kills if they're late to a Tome spawn. That way, even if a team gets the absolute worst luck with RNG, they can still stay in the match if they score kills. It would also allow more aggressive teams to try out variant tactics without falling too far behind the other two teams.

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Originally Posted by edge_x

after the fourth gc-restricted frontline map, i think the dev team is adamant about keeping the gc restrictions. i don't think the restriction is inherently bad but it is incompatible with a small pvp community.

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If Frontlines is as stable and active as reported on JP datacenters, that probably leads to a dilemma for the developers.

If everything about the system is working at least okay for half (?) the playerbase, then it's a decision of what's worse: letting the NA PvP situation stagnate, or investing a lot of resources to change the rules around for no reason for the JP playerbase (and risk upsetting players who are satisfied with the current system).

The impression I get from other discussions is that the devs don't want to split the NA/JP game into separate versions, so there's a tension about how to balance two very different playerbases with one shared ruleset and mechanics.

For example, if they implement a Free Agent mode, that might be desired by NA players, who are more concerned about just getting to play at all. But if the JP playerbase is consistently active, then the majority may enjoy the GC design, feel strongly about it, and become upset if it's diluted by a Free Agent mode for (seemingly) no reason.

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Originally Posted by lovelikewinter

Did you seriously just quote yourself because no one acknowledged your comment.

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Even if I did, my point is still something they should of considered at the start...lol

On the JP forums, there is a thread about removing the GC restrictions and a large majority of the people agree with the OP.
He has over 200 likes.

The mode is terrible specially when it's with small crystals. They die too fast and you have 0 chance to contest them if any gc is near them. The mode feels like doing Stone SKy Sea and not pvp. There's almost no pvp in it and the map is a mess and it takes forever to get to some places. And GC restrictions make it even worse.

And for some reason i don't know why SE doesn't allow more than 2 people pre mades for 8v8 but lets people queue with full groups for frontlines and totally ruins matches for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

And for some reason i don't know why SE doesn't allow more than 2 people pre mades for 8v8 but lets people queue with full groups for frontlines and totally ruins matches for everyone else.

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Its because premade modes dont have the amount of players they needed to to be active. Qing with max 2ppl would make alot of ppl leave frontlines cause they cant play with their friends. Its more the gc restriction who ruin the q because ppl chase wins and switch gc for this. Also there is always a chance one of the 2 pug groups can win which wouldnt be the case in a 2 team mode (8vs8 feast for example). The new mode is good there is way more killing ppl than in sr for example in 72 flame parties just kill and win with that you get every match 700-900pts from just killing in 72 not like in sr. The mode need some fixes but its not as bad as ppl say

Posting to agree with all of those who have suggested removing gc restrictions.

Sure, a bit of rivalry is fun but not when it's at the cost of 30+minute queue times.

Joining in to agree with the removing of GC restrictions. At this point you're either trapped in an endless queue or trapped in the "point at them and laugh!" GC.

Remove the GC restriction, it is a hindrance to the game and offers nothing beneficial.

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Originally Posted by FinaSel

On the JP forums, there is a thread about removing the GC restrictions and a large majority of the people agree with the OP.
He has over 200 likes.

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That's telling, but what seems like a huge amount within the context of the forums is very small relative to the overall playerbase, and then there's also the issue that only a very minority type of player ever comes to forums to complain or discuss. It may not represent the actual majority populations' concerns.

I definitely want some kind of "JUST DO IT!!!" fix to make PvP less of a chore to actually do. Right now I basically have to plan an entire play session just around queuing for Frontlines because the queue could take anywhere from 20m to 3h+ with no consistency, it locks me out of PvE duties and using my Chocobo, it locks me out of doing anything that might cause me to miss the queue, there's no filler PvP activity to do while waiting (like Duels or a free-for-all lobby)... Basically all I can do is sit around in a city and craft for who-knows how long, or not actually play at all (tabbed out). NA PvP is in a frustrating place.

I'm just looking at the reported information that JP queues are quick and consistent. This suggests that the current system is at least adequate for the JP playerbase — it may not be ideal, but it's working well enough to keep the PvP content playable. As a developer, I would be reluctant to risk breaking what's working for one half of the population by implementing sweeping changes to address NA concerns (which would then end up possibly neutral, or worse if it still didn't help NA).

Really, my current biggest question is: Even if JP also dislikes the GC restrictions, why does JP still get consistent play activity? What is it about the JP playerbase or attitude that is different, and makes the current system workable? Because understanding the difference in player attitude and behavior might be the most important step in deciding how to address NA issues without damaging the JP system.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

Its because premade modes dont have the amount of players they needed to to be active. Qing with max 2ppl would make alot of ppl leave frontlines cause they cant play with their friends. Its more the gc restriction who ruin the q because ppl chase wins and switch gc for this. Also there is always a chance one of the 2 pug groups can win which wouldnt be the case in a 2 team mode (8vs8 feast for example). The new mode is good there is way more killing ppl than in sr for example in 72 flame parties just kill and win with that you get every match 700-900pts from just killing in 72 not like in sr. The mode need some fixes but its not as bad as ppl say

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It feels fun to you because you are part of the pre made train and you are playing the mode completely wrong. The mode is not about killing at all. But for you guys it doesn't matter because you always have healers and better cordination unlike groups of solo players who also often have not much idea of how to pvp because they are there to see the new pvp or only to get esoterics.

There's no way you can generate more points than a pre made only focusing on CC and dps'ing the Iceliths. Plus RNG also plays a huge factor on who wins.

Seal Rock has things like rng, but at the very least the mode involved beating other players in order to control nodes rather than the focus of dmg being on crystals. Shatter just doesn't feel like pvp at all.

Also the map is way too big, contributing to the lack of actual pvp.

I'm having fun with Shatter because as an AST I can drop AOE CC on enemy GCs while they're DPSing the crystals, and no one suspects a thing. :>

Just did my first Shatter and it's so boring :O! The map is too big and the terrain is horrible. This is my least favourite Frontlines now, the level 50 ones are so good. Please bring the level 50 Frontlines up for level 60!

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

It feels fun to you because you are part of the pre made train and you are playing the mode completely wrong. The mode is not about killing at all. But for you guys it doesn't matter because you always have healers and better cordination unlike groups of solo players who also often have not much idea of how to pvp because they are there to see the new pvp or only to get esoterics.

There's no way you can generate more points than a pre made only focusing on CC and dps'ing the Iceliths. Plus RNG also plays a huge factor on who wins.

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You dont just focus iceliths wiping teams and spawncamp is a good way to win also. We have 2 random parties and still win with just controlling mid and killing ppl/spawncamp other teams idk why ppl say its alot of pve in alot of 72 matches on chaos its very close after all icelith disappear and ppl just kill the other teams. Its more annoying that ppl switch gc to get wins.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

You dont just focus iceliths wiping teams and spawncamp is a good way to win also. We have 2 random parties and still win with just controlling mid and killing ppl/spawncamp other teams idk why ppl say its alot of pve in alot of 72 matches on chaos its very close after all icelith disappear and ppl just kill the other teams. Its more annoying that ppl switch gc to get wins.

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Again your experience is flawed because you play in pre made. Ofc if a pre made goes to spawn camp a group full of randoms it makes a difference in 72. But if you do that in 24 you end up losing. I had a game with 17-0 in kills and i had adders trapped in their spawn and we still lost because flames was getting Iceliths for free.

300 points from a Icelith is way more than what you get from kills

We play solo too.... what I said was in a 72 kills are important if all crystals are destroyed 24ppl from ur team just go to 2nd place gc cap their base and camp them. Its not like I said we camp every match I only said in 24 (if you calculated pts) their are situations when its better to focus the 2nd place gc and take their base and give the other one crystals (small ones). Obviously when flame has 900pts mael 400 adder 700 you can give mael all the small crystals that are left and focus adder. People complain about "less fighting more pve" when its actually more fighting the usual 72match has more pts from kills than most of the sr matches I had. Why? Because this mode force you to do kills after all crystals are destroyed in SR you always got nodes no matter how long the match was going on.

i get here in a few match because the queue is even worst than usual becaue it get releases with the pve content,
i like it, you focus the crystal and get some kills, you may need to get this kill to make a true difference in points, after a crystal is done, if you get killed you loose your points you just win.

To be honest, if SE really follows advice and does away with the Grand Company requirements, they should just keep pvp simple and have the modes be based on two teams rather than three. It is so hard to balance pvp with 3 teams where there are huge problems with rng and then if there isn't rng, just a huge issue of it being impossible to split your team up in a way that doesn't just allow the team you aren't attacking to take your node for free.

With two team setups you can have classic Capture the Flag style pvp, actual siege style pvp and Node capture and secure that isn't based on rng. The three company setup fails because it can't capitalize on any of these and instead they struggle with these modes that technically work with the triple company setup but they just fail on balance, fun, and actual pvp.

If I've learned anything from this thread....it's that the new mode needs a lot of work...and seal rock still seems better, shame no one can get the achievements now though. As well that they did not plan ahead for what would happen to the original seal rock and the achievements tied too them/items tied too them that people want and cannot get.

from what i can glean from previous posts, the main compaints are:
1)it seems that lack of activity is a much larger issue than balancing in the mode itself
2)shatter favours objective (ice) strategies over player-kill strategies enough so that people are complaining that there isn't enough "pvp" in this pvp mode
3)map is too big for 24 man (not enough action, too much moving around in 24man games)
4) glitches. (eg. being placed in wrong gc)
5)premades (top lel). same old complaint in every mode, nothing new here

actual suggestions made:
a) remove gc restriction
b) add free-agent system (queue for any GC)
c) reduce ice hp. from curty (curty ballistar) . in direct conflict to (2) and (3)
d) increase kill credit. increase ice hp. decrease points from ice. response to complaint (2) and (3)
e) add old achievements to new mode. from unstablepersonality(plague doctor)

I still think highlighting which crystals would trigger 30s-1m before they do would also improve the game mode, because it forces the teams to jostle for position and fight for bit. It also removes some RNG.

I have to say that my first impression of Shatter was as bad as most people have reported in here. However, after having played more, I think some of the issues people have are overblown.

Yes, there are some RNG elements, but as the game progress, it becomes easier and easier to predict what will happen next and to plan accordingly. Given that the small crystals are spread evenly across the map, if you get behind early because everything spawns on the other side, you'll have an easier time near the end because everything will spawn close to you, so there is some kind of balance. You wont have the case where a S rank tomelith unexpectedly spawns behind enemy lines and you can't do anything about it.

There's also more fighting than people make it out to be. However, it happens mostly in 2 situations: right after a crystal gets destroyed or when most of the crystals are gone and teams try to catch up the lead, so it is right to say that crystals hinder actual fighting, but not to say no PvP happens in Shatter.

Now, even though I am saying that the RNG about crystals, especially of the small nature is overblown, I have to say that I feel like their impact on gameplay is hugely negative. The issue comes with their scattered positions and low HP. For many of them, there will be no contest and one company will get all the points. In the end, points even out, but while people are going for them they are in remote areas of the map where no action really happens. Since there are so many of them, that's a lot of time basically twiddling your thumbs.

Most of the more enjoyable matches I've had had one thing in common: small crystals were out of the portrait. They were either 72 man where all of them activated at the beginning and were quickly dispatched or 24 man of the big crystal variety. This had the effect of making the outer rim of the map irrelevant and forcing all three companies to stay in a smaller area, increasing the opportunities to fight. Also, in the 24 man version, big crystals take MUCH longer to destroy. This allows for strategies where you try to gain control of all outposts while trying to delay the destruction of the big crystal as long as possible to maximize your gain. It has proven quite effective in some of my matches (we came back several hundred points for the win), especially for the last crystal, but it would be very hard to transpose to 72 man with the current conditions.

To sum up, here would be my suggestions to improve the mode

• Remove all the small crystals on the map; however the downside of this would be that it would feel empty, but I think it is way too big (and confusing) to begin with
• Increase the health on big crystals by a lot on the 72 man version
• Increase the amount of points transferred from kills to encourage fighting around crystals (and make a disruption strategy more viable)
• Increase the number of outposts on the 72 man version as it can be hard to occupy one when a whole team is defending (each company could have 2 or 3). This would make it harder to ignore them and going all out for a crystal. It would also compensate for the points that originally came from small crystals. However, they should not be placed in a way that would make the outer rim too relevant again.

Another unrelated suggestion would be to let teams heal crystals, which would remove points earned by other companies. That way, you could wipe a team out, heal the crystal back up (though some kind of bonus might be needed to have some impact, especially for shield users) and "steal" the points.

I am aware that most of my suggestion would change drastically how the map is played and as such would require careful thinking before being implemented, but the consensus seems to be that Shatter could be so much more than it is right now with the right adjustments.

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I still think highlighting which crystals would trigger 30s-1m before they do would also improve the game mode, because it forces the teams to jostle for position and fight for bit. It also removes some RNG.

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It seems a very good idea to me, but it has to be shown only on the battlefield not on the map, so if you see one of them you have to alert your alliance.
I think 20-30s would be enough.

Anyway after all those feedback I waiting for a queue time improvement in ANY on the way the people suggested.

Does anyone feel that having 2 giant crystals spawn is a bad idea? It basically screws whichever team is in the middle of the 2 crystals, because both enemy teams would be going for a crystal on either side. The best the team in the middle can do is to focus one, but they'll get only 50% of that crystal's points ideally, another team would get 50%, and the third team would get 100%. If the team in the middle splits (which will 100% happen in pugs), they'll get roflstomped at both crystals. And to further hurt that team, they lose both their "close" crystals.

It basically just RNGs a loss to that team or at least deals them a very difficult hand.

So far Shatter is vey boring as a healer, because even when people are fighting they don't care as much to commit to taking you down.

I liked the CC of Seal Rock and Feast, kiting alliances, and denying melee LBs. So satisfying to shield + Bole the BLM through one, and then watch them LB the DRG back. Attune through melee LB, then laugh when another one comes up and LBs you while still attuned.

The Schadenfreude made it worth all the abuse.

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

Does anyone feel that having 2 giant crystals spawn is a bad idea? It basically screws whichever team is in the middle of the 2 crystals...

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I dont' find it so disappointing honestly, but right now I played no more than 20 matches there, and some were totally dumb, so actually I don't think to have enough experience to be very sure of what I'm saying xD
But if they put a 20% def buff on all the crystals for 10sec after their spawn, landing to a 10% def buff right after, and nullify it after again 10sec, it will "help" far people and mitigate a little the RNG, but right now when I see the last big crystal off, I try to stay "close" to it.

But even the suggestion that you previously said will fix it (make crystals flash few seconds before they go on)

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Originally Posted by FunkYeahDragons

So far Shatter is vey boring as a healer, because even when people are fighting they don't care as much to commit to taking you down.

I liked the CC of Seal Rock and Feast, kiting alliances, and denying melee LBs. So satisfying to shield + Bole the BLM through one, and then watch them LB the DRG back. Attune through melee LB, then laugh when another one comes up and LBs you while still attuned.

The Schadenfreude made it worth all the abuse.

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I actually "like" to heal there, even if I prefere to DPS, but...
you mentioned astro, GO WHM or SCH AND PUSH ALL THE ENEMIES DOWN
mwhahah XD

I did it so much as SCH and BRD like no other FLs xD

I believe a lot of the complaints are more due to people not yet full figuring out what they need to do in Shatter matches.

The variation in crystal compositions and spawn patterns keeps you on your toes and you and your GC need to be flexible. Groups that just try and Zerg everything seem to end up losing more often than not.

I had a crazy 72 match where all the small crystals activated at the same time and then we ended up battling the other two GCs waiting for the 4 large crystals in the center to activate.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I believe a lot of the complaints are more due to people not yet full figuring out what they need to do in Shatter matches. The variation in crystal compositions and spawn patterns keeps you on your toes and you and your GC need to be flexible. Groups that just try and Zerg everything seem to end up losing more often than not..

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I'm not so sure that this is the case. There are only so many variations that can be applied to the simple objective of "kill the crystals," and killing crystals is pretty much the only viable way to win a match. RNG keeps things fresh, I suppose, but it doesn't surprise me to see players who shrug off the novelty of playing a 72/24-man game of whack-a-mole. By comparison, your story about a crystal free-for-all match sounds much more entertaining, especially near the end when you had to fight for the last four crystals. Even it it still just comes down to a Dps race, at least it would be a change of pace; so, it would be nice to see more matches like that.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

I actually "like" to heal there, even if I prefere to DPS, but...
you mentioned astro, GO WHM or SCH AND PUSH ALL THE ENEMIES DOWN
mwhahah XD

I did it so much as SCH and BRD like no other FLs xD

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Probably the only pleasure that remains for me in PVP, although I've unofficially quit FFXIV outside of Shatterdays and if people say they're queuing in Discord. I'll see how I feel about renewing my sub at the end of the month.