4.0 Ideas

<wild Kanji appears>
Where did i put my Google Chrome...?

Jokes on side, If SAM is going to be a DPS, then at least i will make use on DRG gear i was storing for no reason >.>
But yeah, i think they will rethink SAM twice before doing mage in heavy armor LOL

You know what I would like to see in 4.0?

No Level cap raise. Keep it at 60.

Reasons? Well, for one, if you keep it at 60, you can focus on other, unique ways to empower your character. Similar to the Merit system in FFXI, this allows you to maybe alter some of the ways a class can be played and allow customization. Secondly, I feel like they could then use the resources in order to put more in the game in the form of story for either the classes or the main story. Adding only 10 levels is actually a carefully required balancing act to ensure all the classes stay around the same power and feel good. Adding a system like a Merit system allows them to create a core, add numbers, and that's about it. Testing can be done by tweaking percentages, similar to what they do with weapon skills right now. Furthermore, you can start adding new attacks in this new system by unlocking the point system that way. It's another form of progression. Finally, it's mostly also about the skill bloat we currently have in this game where I nearly have five bars full of stuff I use on my Dark Knight and I'm not in the mood to have more attacks.

I've never been a huge proponent of level cap increases. I feel like it really just recycles the whole leveling process and it's a cheap way for companies to make it so that you are 'more powerful'. Think outside the box. You now have an expansion and a core game that have been very successful. Time to branch out and test new things. Look at what was successful in other games and try to alter it enough to make it interesting in this game.

In regards to Beastmaster using beast skills, I could easily see it happen but not exactly like FFXI's Beastmaster worked:

You could have stances in regards to what you need to do as a DPS, similar to Monk. Each attack is based on a specific set of animalistic attacks in the game. You learn to unleash your animalistic rage as you level up to the cap, allowing you to unlock potential damage and skills. The idea of pets is probably not the way to go, as your FFXI Beastmaster tamed pets and we already have a couple of 'pet' classes like the Machinist and Summoner, and let's not forget the Scholar. The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. You could do some wicked animated attacks that show spirits of beasts like Lion or Bear or ....Gasp...MOOGLE! (I kid. ...maybe.)

I'm still fairly sure Samurai is not going to be a DPS class. If everyone remembers at the start of Heavensward, they were stuck between Dark Knight and Samurai. They decided they would go with Dark Knight instead as it works best for what they wanted to do. To me, that indicates that Samurai was set to be a tank class either way as if Dark Knight wasn't going in, Samurai would have been your tank class. I think they kept the blueprint and the next Expansion will simply extend on that blueprint to create the 4.0 tank: Samurai.

For a healer, I really like the idea of a melee healer. It adds a certain risk in regards of being in melee but it allows for different tactics to be used. Maybe a trickle heal with a combo that blasts an AoE trickle heal or another combo that does a regen. I still think you should have two stances for that to allow more of a ranged healer. Dancer could work.

Pretty sure I threw out a lot of these ideas in the past when this thread came up; heck, it might have been in this one. (Pretty sure I hinted at a DRK FFT style skills but that fits my Merit idea above.)




Truth be told: I want them to go bold. I want them to try something different. Enough with being safe. It's time to make Final Fantasy XIV different and unique in its own way that isn't seen at this time in modern MMOs. While the Merit system was already used in another game, I used it as a blueprint of some sort to expand on different ways to empower a character other than a 'level up' skill. This way, you also don't see a gigantic ILVL jump either and you can continue where you're at by simply jumping 20 ilvls or something.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

I think they will rethink SAM twice before doing mage in heavy armor

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Well, the guy is Japanese ... lol. Jokes aside though, I agree.

When it comes to samurai, the main issue is, "if not Samurai, then what?" and there aren't really a lot of answers to that question. Looking at past FF jobs, we don't have too many options that aren't already used or at least very similar to jobs in use. Viking? We got that. It's called "Warrior." How about any variety of the nearly endless different types of knights that we have seen? We have a Paladin or Dark Knight for those. That basically leaves us with 3 potential candidates: Red mage, Samurai, and Beast Master. Of the three, Beast Master seems the most unlikely; so, it's more than likely going to be a coin toss between Sam and Rdm ... either that, or SE will have to come up with a FFXIV exclusive. I think that would be a good thing, because more variety is never bad.

While i like the idea of ffxiv exclusive class, i believe there isn't anything exclusive in ffxiv tbh. Except machinist if i quessed correctly. That cuts more interesting ideas by half.

Beastmaster seems a good monk-like class, but on a longer run, we don't need another monk-like class. Actually, at this point, it is very hard to make unique rotations and whole gameplay for one full class. That said, if a beastmaster were to resemble monk more than a little, i would rather have another pet (oh god no please...) using beastmaster.

Giving up on level cap raise is best way to get bored with a class before you experience all features 4.0 will provide. Thou i would love it to happen. Having much greater impact on my class build sounds like a dream. Especially, that for current moment we have absolutely no choice at all. If we were to copare to DRKs at 60, only melds and names would make them different. Thats not what i believe it should look like!

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

While i like the idea of ffxiv exclusive class, i believe there isn't anything exclusive in ffxiv tbh.

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I was more referring to within the FF series in general, as in a job that has never before been done in any Final Fantasy. If we're looking for a completely original idea, then we're doomed to fail. There's no such thing as an original idea, only an original spin on an old idea.

Beast master is an interesting one, but if they were ever to do it I would prefer not to see controllable pets. The problem with pets is that they tend to be clunky to use. As interesting as it would be to see a Beast Master tank use a pet as a proxy (ie: the beast master itself doesn't hold aggro. Their pet does) I feel like proper positioning and mobility would be too difficult to do fluidly in a fight. Tanks don't have the luxury of taking that kind of time to micro manage a proxy's movements while also watching their own. So pets are out.

Stance management is a much more promising idea, but I too wouldn't want it to be handled the same way as Monks. Instead of having their combos transition them into stances, I could picture it working more closely to the way War's and Pld's use stances. If I were building a Beast Master, I would build it so that it used some kind of shamanic talisman as it's weapon to summon the spirits of animals (not pets) in the form of multiple stances which reflect each animal. Instead of simply having a "Tank stance" and "Dps stance," a Beast Master would actively be switching between a large number of stances as the fight progressed to gain access to different combos and effects. This would be similar to the way that Darkside/Dark Arts open new moves and effects, only much more extensive. Their stances would probably share a oGCD (like Defiance/Deliverance), and they would likely have far less defensive CD's in favour of having far more combo effects. That way, they'd be forced to learn how to use their stances effectively rather than just stay in one the entire fight ... Something along those lines, anyway. It would be interesting to learn, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

While i like the idea of ffxiv exclusive class, i believe there isn't anything exclusive in ffxiv tbh. Except machinist if i quessed correctly. That cuts more interesting ideas by half.

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Machinist isn't new either. It was a class in Final Fantasy Tactics that an NPC named Mustadio was-it used guns to seal enemy movements and weaken them. The same is true for Astrologian-an npc exclusive class from FFT.

Either way I hope we see less homogenization in the newer classes.

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Originally Posted by Cidolfas86

Machinist isn't new either. It was a class in Final Fantasy Tactics that an NPC named Mustadio was-it used guns to seal enemy movements and weaken them. The same is true for Astrologian-an npc exclusive class from FFT.

Either way I hope we see less homogenization in the newer classes.

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going the tactics route theres temple knight, oracle/mystic, mediator, chemist... but i really feel like at least put redmage in, come on all the original ff classes/jobs are in this game besides red mage, and its been there from the start. I'm cool with adding tactics based jobs later, for tanks id throw in sorceror/mystic knight/rune fencer as well, geomancer was also in there in both tactics and the older ones, theres a few jobs i wouldnt mind seeing even from side series like tactics

Eh.

It's really hard to see a Red Mage in this game. While I understand Yoshi really wants to put the class in here, I don't understand exactly how they will do the role properly.

In essence, a Red Mage is a combination of the Black and White mages, albeit on a lower scale. They also are a jack of all trades/master of none deal. So what, do we decide that we're going to have this class be able to be pretty much everything? You could...would make it a very wanted class.

The way I could see a Red Mage work, personally, is if you allow them to pretty much be all three roles:

Tank - A stance that allows them to focus on weapon strikes embued with magical attacks to generate threat. This allows them to use a shield, like a Paladin, but focused more on sword dances and more focused on evasion. You could see an evasion tank work with Red Mage due to the fact their weapon of choice is a Rapier, either way. A lot of parries and evasion skills with the ability to chain a multitude of skills. Really, the only difference how I see a Red Mage and Samurai right now, in my mind, is the fact that one would use magic with their weapons and the other would use a solid two handed steel blade to smack things dead. In essence, they would have the same type of tanking. That's why it's plausible in my mind to see Red Mage as a tank. (Red Mages were also able to wear heavier armor than their mage counterpart.)

DPS - This would be a focus on their dark elemental magic as well as possible White Magic enfeebling skills to reduce the damage or increase their own attacks on a mob. This would be more of a ranged spec similar to the other classes and a stance that empowers their magical attacks, at the cost of increasing their damage (Can't have a tank type architect be able to sit back and take hits without worrying about mechanics, now can we.) This would focus and be more in tune with the lore of the Red Mage, being a caster and enfeebler.

Healer - This would have a stance which allows them to heal in a pinch situation. It would focus on the healing skills and enhancers and possibly could return skill such as haste spells and other enhancing skills. Again a ranged user.

But how exactly do you balance their stats is the question. This would probably require their own gear set and I would think they'd be in the range of Monks in regards to taking damage. The stances they would have would allow them to do well, but never be the best at it. They could easily do the content but there will always be a bit of a low placement in regards to the ability of doing the role. That would be extremely hard to manage to do, and a lot of people would not like playing the class knowing that doing the role they want, they'd be gimped, but that would be the cost of having a character that can pretty much do anything in the game, role wise. That's how I perceive Red Mage to be, which I honestly am not sure at all if they properly implement it.

That's why Red Mage, to me, is a long shot to be added in the game right now. The setting just...doesn't feel right for the class just yet. Maybe another expansion cycle and Red Mage can make its re-entry.

I wouldn't mind them delving into FFT classes, honestly. It was one of my favorite Final Fantasy games so I'm all for it.

I can pretty easily see Redmage as a DoM DPS. Unlike BLM, RDM maximum DPS comes from mobility instead of remaining stationary.

Rough RDM concept

(just using 'En' prefix as a demo naming convention)

Enfire1,2,3 being melee range spells (sword) (they make a combo),
and EnLightning1,2,3 being instant cast caster spells (they make a combo, too. EnLightning spells deliver higher potency when outside melee range <like MCH/BRD DPS in PVP>).

But then throw in low-recast OGCD gap-maker & gap-closer abilities with better DPS and/or Debuff combos like Enfire1 > Enfire 2 > (gap-maker) EnLightning 3, or EnLightning 1 > EnLightning 2 > (gap-closer) EnFire 3.

The healing side of RDM kit could just be party Support CDs, like how we've got Mantra, Divine Veil, and others.

Isn't this all a little imaginary though? We're not even sure 4.0 will provide new jobs, are we?

IIRC the only Q@A LL I recall is (paraphrasing), "..we're not looking at new jobs until 4.0." Which is rather ambiguous, could mean new job possibly in 4.0 patch, or just some time in the 4.x patch cycle in it's entirety. But then again I've missed some of the more recent LLs. (And there was that "which first, Red or Blue?" dialogue bubble during the anniversary event)

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

I wouldn't mind them delving into FFT classes, honestly. It was one of my favorite Final Fantasy games so I'm all for it.

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QFT, FFT being the best isn't an opinion - it's a factual statement :D

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Originally Posted by Cidolfas86

Machinist isn't new either. It was a class in Final Fantasy Tactics that an NPC named Mustadio was-it used guns to seal enemy movements and weaken them.

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OOH, right, tottaly forgot about this guy. Well, small wonder, i never used him. i didn't like him in general + he was dealing little damage as for my OHKO party builds.

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

In essence, a Red Mage is a combination of the Black and White mages, albeit on a lower scale.

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This guy knows how to RDM before it is out. Like for him.

RDM was first introduced in FF I (yup, call me papi, old good first final) as jack-of-all-trades - he was able to use chainmails, bucklers and white and black magic up to tier 7 with some exceptions (Black Wizard and White Wizard were using all their tier 8 magic)
And Red Mage had one job - allow party to drop standard "must have" of black mage & white mage duo, in order to get additional heavy hitter like monk or one additional warrior.
I have no idea how RDM was looking like in FFXI but i am not sure, if i want to see some hybrid of innovation and deadline to get RDM class just becuase SE can't use primal concept of red mage from FF1 or even FF5.

Do you know what i would like to see in 4.0?
Job ascension. Change (finally...?!) the correct translation of ナイト (japansese version) into knight, not paladin and make Knight -> Paladin.
Black Mage -> Black Wizard
White Mage -> White Wizard
And so on. Of course it will never happen, since Translation of Meat shield (jap ver: White Knight), meat axe (jap ver: Blood Warrior) never got translated correctly back as it should be.
Also, jobs like Ninja cannot be actually ascended any further and they were translated correctly :P

If we were to base on FFT jobs i am actually waiting only for Samurai, Mystic and Arithmetician. And those last two only to see, how sick their gameplay would be, if SE have tried to force-implement them in FF XIV.
Dancer would look fun, thou i see no point in having debuffer liek that, since all classes have their debuffs.
Mime would look fun, but rather as limit break rather than actual class.
Holy Knight, since Paladin do not have those sweet sick overpowered magic sword techniques.

Maybe Runefencer would be a good FFXIV exclusive?
But as DPS, we already have so called Runefencer as tank...

Actually since we have Tactics Ogre Easter Egg in this game, i would rather see Jobs and Classes from Let Us Cling Together, since there is bigger choice (FFT was actually a response to Tactics Ogre --- *the more you know...*) while greater part of FFT jobs already exist in XIV, except some exceptions that would hardly fit in here.

Actually Tactics Ogre HAS very similar jobs so just forget.

After 4.0 next classes will be so force-implemented, we will pray for posibility to use classes as KrenianKandos inspired.

Helps I'm an oldie as well, Yuni, having played FF1 back on the good ol Nintendo.

I never got into Tactics Ogre, to be honest. I loved Ogre Battle; that was a game I lost hours upon hours upon. Tactics Ogre? I don't know why...never jived with me.

Final Fantasy Tactics was my go to because I stayed in that IP. I rarely moved around. Still don't; have a hard time playing other games.

Anywho, just thought about what 'could' work in this game. We haven't had a class yet that can do every role. Maybe Red Mage breaks this, similar to what Druids are in World of Warcraft.

You could honestly help the tanking deficiency by doing this as it allows a person to play any role...

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

Final Fantasy Tactics was my go to because I stayed in that IP. I rarely moved around. Still don't; have a hard time playing other games.

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Final Fantasy Tactics was one of the best strategy games every made, so it doesn't surprise me. It laid the ground work for so many other games that followed it in so many different ways that it's just ridiculous.

As for jobs that can do every role, the problem would be the technical aspect of it in a game like this. Queues require a 4-8 man party composition. The only way to fill this requirement as a red mage would be to establish what role you would want to play in advance of queuing, which means locking several of your skills before even entering the instance. Another problem would be that a multi-purpose job runs the risk of making certain jobs less desirable. Similar to the way WAR completely destroyed off-tanking for Pld and Drk post-3.1. If Red Mage were to be too self-sufficient or too flexible in it's utility, then no one would have a need to play anything else. Party compositions would be fixed with Red Mages.

I don't think it would help the tanking deficiency either. People don't play tanks because they're scared of the role, not the jobs. Proof in the pudding was the introduction of Dark Knight in 3.0. EVERYONE jumped that band wagon, and, for the first time since 2.0, Tank queue times actually exceeded 5 minutes ... for about 1 or 2 weeks. These people weren't real tanks. They just liked the moniker of "Dark Knight." Once they realized that they actually had to dawn the responsibility of a tank by taking up that role, they dropped it like a bad habit.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Final Fantasy Tactics was one of the best strategy games every made, so it doesn't surprise me. It laid the ground work for so many other games that followed it in so many different ways that it's just ridiculous.

As for jobs that can do every role, the problem would be the technical aspect of it in a game like this. Queues require a 4-8 man party composition. The only way to fill this requirement as a red mage would be to establish what role you would want to play in advance of queuing, which means locking several of your skills before even entering the instance. Another problem would be that a multi-purpose job runs the risk of making certain jobs less desirable. Similar to the way WAR completely destroyed off-tanking for Pld and Drk post-3.1. If Red Mage were to be too self-sufficient or too flexible in it's utility, then no one would have a need to play anything else. Party compositions would be fixed with Red Mages.

I don't think it would help the tanking deficiency either. People don't play tanks because they're scared of the role, not the jobs. Proof in the pudding was the introduction of Dark Knight in 3.0. EVERYONE jumped that band wagon, and, for the first time since 2.0, Tank queue times actually exceeded 5 minutes ... for about 1 or 2 weeks. These people weren't real tanks. They just liked the moniker of "Dark Knight." Once they realized that they actually had to dawn the responsibility of a tank by taking up that role, they dropped it like a bad habit.

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That's exactly the issue I was struggling with while I was writing up the Red Mage class: How exactly do you do it so that a Red Mage could not feasibly do all of the content. Do it make it they're just powerful enough to do the stuff but still at a weakened state?

The only argument I can surmise is you remove the tanking aspect of the class. Period. You make it plausible for them to play either a healer role or a DPS role, and that would be activated when you, say, used your stance of sorts in order to make the game think "You're x or y". And I don't even know if that's even possible in the current coding to allow a player to choose a role. The roles are preset with the jobs you choose to be. I'm not sure how much rewiring you can do.

That's the biggest conundrum in regards to the Red Mage class: How do you keep the lore and the core of the class and allow him to be a jack-of-all-trades type? I honestly don't see it possible unless you decide that you allow to open up all three paths and the game is allowing you to choose the role you want to be. And then, you have to ask yourself: If there is one class that can do it all, why not play that raid?

The only answer is this: You don't see an all druid raid in World of Warcraft, and they can do all three roles. As such, you would think that all three roles to the Red Mage can be balanced enough not to exactly allow you to go all RDMs and do well. I mean, you can do it (Hell, you can do anything) but you would benefit from other classes being there. Class synergies would also come into play too. All Red Mage parties would make you miss out on important debuffs other classes bring to bring up your DPS to par. And if you make it that the Red Mage could 'just' do their role and not exactly 'excel' at it, you're asking to become suboptimal for fun which won't help progression.

I can see how they can fix the whole "Just bring 8 RDMs" easily enough. I cannot see if the coding allows this to be.

For RDM, instead of being able to do all three jobs, its a DPS that gives buffs that benefits all 3 roles in specific ways, while not being particularly strong in its own role.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

For RDM, instead of being able to do all three jobs, its a DPS that gives buffs that benefits all 3 roles in specific ways, while not being particularly strong in its own role.

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This sounds cool to me. It reminds me of bard. I also like the way bard doesnt seem to have a rotation. (im not a bard, i could be wrong) I think if they made red mage use whatever it wants without any forced rotation. That would be the coolest job to play imo. I would most likely main a class that includes melee and magic dps and doesnt have a rotation. That just sounds so perfect. If its slightly weak like a bard and buffs others then that would seem fitting so that it wouldnt be op(by having all options ..let them be weak for balance).

Or we can use RDM into two/three distinct Jobs, like ARC, but without the inherent issues of a class branching out. ARM/BSM already set a prescient for 2 guilds in one building.

The idea would be two classes that both use a type of Swords and elements of both Black and White Magic

The first one would be closer to the Flavor of a RDM. Using Rapiers an Having access to 12 attacks, 2 attack for each elements (Fire, Water, Ice, Thunder, Wind and Earth) but 1 Cure Spell and 1 Raise spell, Like SMN.

The 2nd one would have more Healing spells in their kit (a HoT, an AoE Heal, a debuff cleanser, and a spell that is highly potent but has a cooldown in the same vein as Tetragammatron or Essential Dignity) and use Epees as both a wand an a piercing weapon. But would have less elemental spells (They would only have Thunder and ice spells)

In addition, both classes would use their elements in different but simialr ways the DPS Job would for example would use Chain Lightning making an AoE Thunder spell, while the Healer Job can use Thunder to cleanse debuffs, but both would still be based off of RDM

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

I cannot see if the coding allows this to be.

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The coding is pretty simple here. Job is based on job crystal that you equip. It changes your flag from, say, 1 to 10 (since there are 9 classes) or from 4 to 14. Each number is obviousely marked under correct "box" and triggers correct methods. Boxes are three- healer, dps, tank. In other words, as you do it with Arcanist, job stone gives you the "ability" to become anything, as long as the weapon (weapon always HAS TO be equipped, that's becuase there is no non-class box nor flag, you have to have a class. weapon declares class. That's why partially we cannot have ninjas with Greatsowrds fancy moveset lol) remains same or is marked as multiple flag, like for arcanist, lets say, 9 and 19,20 (9th flag for ACN, 19th and 20th flags for SCH & SMN).

While coding is not a problem, there is a problem you mentioned.
Who needs a class that can be all 3 roles anytime? Like Arcanist, you either play SMN or SCH. Do you use Physick or Ressurection as SMN? in perfect situation, you shoudnt. that's 2 skills less.
And now RDM who can become anything he wants, just by changing job stone? Let's say that gear and weapon are staying same. As Februs said, you will enter instance as RDM-healer, RDM-dps or RDM-tank.
And that kill the fun or multi-aspected cystal or Red Mage.

A digression!
There is that famous quote:
"Am i Black Mage? Am i White Mage? WRONG! I am plain damn useless!" ~1st Red Mage

So, getting back to the topic. Changing the whole role system would be like letting DRG do a Jump during massive AoE. I doubt that the maintenance would be shorter than 2 weeks to fix the mess that players would make after 3 days of gameplay. Literally. Game would break. Instantly.

Small, Regular changes to Role system or Role funcionality, however, would fix our problems, their problems, and probably future problems;

Because, as i said, i already see Order 66 execution, when Devs give us a hybrid of Innovation and Deadline, in any aspect of the game.

ideally summoner shouldnt have to use res or physick but those utilities can come in handy in alot of situations(well res) physick would get more use if it was on par with scholars but thats exactly how they differentiate these spells by mind and int respectivelyyou could even give red mage clerics to use it backwards from how healers use it(and the potency reduction for healing would never make it an optimal heal in any case so healers wouldnt have to worry too much and just be relieved with a short spot healing if necessary), but to me that would probably kind of be too much for them to balance, maybe not. Smn is sort of a basis as to why i feel like having redmage be a DoM melee/mid ranged caster dps with just a few restorative and utility that wouldnt encroach on the healer role too much, would maybe give it a fairly close resemblance of early redmage. Sure jack of all trades, but it would never get a holy, or flare, or cure 3 or what not, it did come with double cast which could be the job gimmick or just a long cd to improve some abilities like battlevoice works? I never played 11 which im thinking this can be a tank comes from but usually redmage just had medium armor(chain mail) and probably ninja level armor too in ff1 nes, so...im not sure why it would have to be all 3 i never used redmage as a healer just a touch up healer or exit/warp/life outside of battle sort of mage, primarilly used its melee unless a fire based enemy died faster with low level ice spells, etc

The fact they come in handy do not change another fact, that they are no use for DPS. DRG, in example, thnx to lack of Physicks and Rezz, have two other skills allowing to increase damage output (let's ignore the fact, he has Feint skill...).

I think RDM needs to be a healer with heals that aren't as strong as WHM's. They'd have defensive shields like SCH in the form of phalanx, and could either be a frontline melee healer, or have a melee stance.

I just don't think the pure DPS role suits them because every support DPS is still like 99% DPS. If you add a healing aspect and give them either self-heals or party AoE heals via their melee combos, you pretty much got DNC. DNC should be the melee support job imo. As for RDM as tank, they're not supposed to excel at anything, and I think a tank that is defensively weaker than the other tanks is just a bad idea. The only role that makes sense to me is healer, since healers already do both healing and DPS, and they can "tank" to an extent as well, albeit not as good as a real tank. Sounds perfect for RDM since they could give it stronger DPS than the other healers. They could still have enfire and chainspell.

Giving trinity-breaking role diversity to RDM would leave other jobs in the same role asking for the same. Until they are given the same balance you'd have issues like in pre-Aht Urgan FFXI where certain RDM and WAR builds were game-breakingly beyond other classes and the standard tank/healer/refresher/DD structure.

SE could never (or more they simply chose not to) fix that imbalance without destroying the original party structure. Which is what ended that game's prominence, imo. FFXI was competing with WoW up until then and provided a "more true" (only way I can describe it) MMO experience (imo, obviously).

So I'm hesitant on the idea of RDM breaking trinity barriers beyond an certain extent, just from that history.

New, innovative, and game-changing are descriptions not (entirely) synonymous with format-breaking.

There's still plenty of room for diversity within the current design, I don't think there's reason to tear down those walls just yet.
(And that potential is what makes Wander's Minuet / Gauss Barrel &&& Rampart / Shadowskin SO much more frustrating to me)

well theyd just have to work on more utilities, im amazed that monk ddnt get build up as a part of forbidden chakra, or 'chakra' for instance, that skill alone would give them utility, all in all i am fine with some diversity aimed to give some relief to healers or tanks, like ninjas enmity control, a combat raise, like smn has, maybe even just a clemency like heal with great risk to mp etc. The idea i dont think is to make the other roles less necessary, its to aid them if theyre struggling or to work together to clear content. I mean, who doesnt love clutch kills? Originally i always wondered why paladin didnt at least get a battle raise, so many oppurunities to save a wipe, etc. But again here is a guy who likes to do silly things like 4 dps dungeon runs, just to shake it up a little bit and see how far you can go without following the rigid strict rules of this role, 2 this role, 1 this role. and i swear if you ever get the chance to do an 8 scholar titan hard mode, youll probably cry laughing so hard it is pretty hillarious

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Giving trinity-breaking role diversity to RDM would leave other jobs in the same role asking for the same.

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It's fine if they deviate a little bit. I mean Paladin has a pretty potent healing spell, but it's balanced by the cast time and the high mp cost. If they gave rdm some defensive utility (a self heal, some sort of defensive cd, etc.) it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

No idea bout new skills/classes, but here's some ideas for existing PLD skills, talking trait wise. Yes I'm a PLD Fanboy.


Skill: Flash
Trait: Flash of Light[Lv.53]

Effect: Flash now causes AoE damage with a potency of 150.

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Skill: Divine Veil
Trait: Divine Blessing[Lv.56]

Effect: On successful activation of Divine Veil through healing, the amount of initial healing will be cast as Regen effect over 10secs(1tick/sec) in addition, for the entire party.

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Skill: Sword Oath/Shield Oath
Trait: Oathkeeper[Lv.59]

Effect:
Sword Oath - Additional attack potency increased to 70 from 50. During Sword Oath, all damaging skills gain a potency of 20(initial hit only, not DoTs). During Sword Oath, whenever Royal Authority is used in combo, cooldown of Circle of Scorn/Spirits Within is reduced by 2 seconds.

Shield Oath - Attacks generate even further enmity. Damage dealt is reduced by 10% while damage taken is decreased by 20%. Blockrate is increased by 15%. During Shield Oath, Defensive skill effects are increased by 5%.

4.0 Ideas? Here they come:

• New playable Race: Viera (because everyone asked for it)
• New areas: Xelphatol, Gyn Abania, Ala Mhigo
• New classes: Samurai, Dancer and Red Mage
• New Raid: Doomtrain
• New Primals: Anima, Omega-Weapon
• Features: Rework for 2.0-areas (flying enabled, larger areas)
• Features: Swimming and Diving
• Max Level: 70
• New traits for all jobs, no additional skills
• Skills can be upgraded
• Classes removed, Cross Skills enhanced
• Personal Limit Break
• Open World PvP (Warriors of Light vs. Warriors of Darkness)

Alot of this makes sense esp if the ala migho thing happens, doom train giving resources into garlemald would be a great raid scenario(though how the hell we get off it?) I dont know about cross class skills dying just yet but id be okay if the other skills are modifiable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Giving trinity-breaking role diversity to RDM would leave other jobs in the same role asking for the same. Until they are given the same balance you'd have issues like in pre-Aht Urgan FFXI where certain RDM and WAR builds were game-breakingly beyond other classes and the standard tank/healer/refresher/DD structure.

SE could never (or more they simply chose not to) fix that imbalance without destroying the original party structure. Which is what ended that game's prominence, imo. FFXI was competing with WoW up until then and provided a "more true" (only way I can describe it) MMO experience (imo, obviously).

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I see no issue with letting other jobs also move out of the rigid trinity somewhat, as long as design moves more or less as one, rather than leaving obvious favorites for these new ventures.

You've mentioned the true issue itself. They chose to ignore glaring imbalance issues. That's generally pretty bad. However, I don't think movement from the original party structure would otherwise have had much to do with FFXI's downturn, if at all. WoW itself turned further away from hybrids with every single expansion, often to criticism. FFXI having some diversity by no means broke its competitive banking against WoW. But any negligence in implementation certainly can, and likely did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

However, I don't think movement from the original party structure would otherwise have had much to do with FFXI's downturn, if at all.

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Where would you place the divide, then? I'm just wondering, (Chains of Promanthia? Off topic about FFXI:

For me it was Aht Urgan. The TP Burn party was such a petty hand-out that betrayed what the game was, and did nothing to address job balance - just gave jobs other than WAR/RDM/NIN/MNK(?) a way to get carried (but were still inferior in performance anyway). And it was pandering to WoW players,

I think they should have stuck to their guns. CoP, for all it's criticism, kept a prominent line in the sand distinguishing FFXI from the 'casual mmorpg' WoW, and that was good, imo. Once they started pandering to that crowd though, they just threw a wrench in their own clockwork.

)

I'm mostly just worried that if they made RDM a utility focus DPS, (especially if it's off-healing utility), it will end being implemented poorly because that doesn't really fit the model for what FFXIV raid/dungeon DPSers want. If it was an off-healer that could help push away SCH's monopoly on that role, that'd be different. But can you imagine RDM as primarily a healer?

Other than the new jobs,
I think the best approach to simultaneous adjustments for current Jobs is replacing cross-class skills.

As for how it's implemented, I can imagine:

A new job quest-line going back to the characters of the original class-quest storylines. The end of which every job gets a new soulstone. "Soulstone of the Scholar" <HQ symbol>, for example.

We keep the old Soulstones too, and the cross-class restrictions on those old ones are removed (if you wear the old Soulstone, can cross-class whatever you want), but the new soulstones have no cross-class skills, and instead offer 5 new job abilities. 'Current' content requires the new soulstone, but old soulstones can be used in Unsync'd, open world, and older content.

Swiftcast, Cleric Stance, Protect, Blood for Blood, Foresight/Bloodbath/Convalescence/MercyStroke, Blizzard 2, Raging Strikes, E4E, Virus..

There are a lot of cross-class skills - if replaced with new versions which offer their own nuances that cater specifically to their respective job - could redefine jobs, enhance their playstyles, their utility, etc etc. There's a lot of flexibility and design freedom if this were to happen.

Continuing to build 'on top' of this antiquated cross-class system just isn't wise, imo. No amount of DPS spells for WHM/AST will change their practical DPS when they're gated behind Cleric, which will remain best only for SCH (unless they give WHM/AST their own faeries). That's just one example; personally, I'm ready for a change.

So I'm hoping SE is considering an adjustment like this^, if not for 4.0 but sometime in the future. A suitable alternative to a lvlcap increase for 1 patch cycle imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Where would you place the divide, then? I'm just wondering, (Chains of Promanthia? Off topic about FFXI:

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I'm honestly not sure. It's not something I've really thought deeply about from the XI perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

I'm mostly just worried that if they made RDM a utility focus DPS, (especially if it's off-healing utility), it will end being implemented poorly because that doesn't really fit the model for what FFXIV raid/dungeon DPSers want. If it was an off-healer that could help push away SCH's monopoly on that role, that'd be different. But can you imagine RDM as primarily a healer?

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In short, no I cannot imagine it as primarily a healer. But I do pretty well imagine it exactly as a DPS with a versatile, largely utility-focused DPS. That's partly because that's the only thing I can imagine warrant even calling it a RDM, and partly due to personal wants.

To put those wants concisely, I really like having extra options and tend to enjoy burden of knowledge aspects. I like close combo play between different players, methodologies, and/or classes. I tend to dislike anything that standardizes or flattens choices that could otherwise bring out those aspects. I love undermechanics, and tend to dislike redundancy or lacking identity/distinction (as between two abilities identical except in name, etc).

What I ultimately hope RDM will do is bring some consideration back into matters of composition, especially for sort of "midcore" content (essentially, casual contents being played by try-hards, if you will), and introduce a bit more synergy and broadened view of responsibilities and opportunities into the otherwise rigid role system. I'm tired of so rarely having to think of anything outside of damage-dealing as a DPS. Dealing the most I can over a mechanics-heavy fight is fun, no doubt about that, but it lacks a lot of the satisfaction of doing that while kiting around a giant who likes to one-shot people. Honestly though, the best examples go much further back...

I'll just put it this way. When leveling in ARR, it was often faster for me not to take a tank at all for certain dungeons if a had a CNJ or post-sleepga THM. I've commonly Bard tanked them without taking any melee damage, even while holding enmity just fine. My all-time fastest dungeon spams were as BLM and 3 SMNs. One Titan, two Garudas. Sleepga, focus, Bane, melt. If heals were necessary, Physic was still 400 potency to Ruin's 80, so until MND was split from INT, it really was a better use of output for a SMN to heal than for a SCH to waste pet dps. Granted, especially prior to the AoE damage taken, this meant certain vulnerabilities as well. Various dungeons had different ideal combinations back then. But then for whatever reason development decided to make most dungeon mobs immune to not just sleep, not just binds, but just about everything but stuns, limiting such options. The dungeon-running conventions we have now are often a result of that in combination with the comparatively massive healer burst output available in XIV, wherein a tank will doubtlessly be needed anyways—well, technically not; I've tanked every HW dungeon as DRG and MNK each, and healers can probably technically solo most—and the bigger pull, the better because what control can you really lose out on that would matter? I that this exclusion of fine control and alternatives would exist in raid settings, but consider: it's actually fairly new for that to be the universal rule. Heavies and binds were still of massive use in certain parts of Coil, and it's only after level 50 that sleep immunity went ubiquitous in dungeons.

Altogether, I'd just want to see almost anything that could shake up that setup, and provide some thought and alternatives. Granted, it'd currently be hugely difficult to implement in a DF setting, where you do need a minimal level of mitigation, healing, and DPS between all party members, and can't typically rely on hybrid capacities or components with the community as it is right now—even if a party of DPS did, between them, have all the factors necessary to run a particular dungeon, between burst healing, sustainable healing, mitigation, utility, or just the eHP enough for large pulls or tankbusters, most DPS aren't used to thinking outside of their own role that much. But that's the optionality I've love to see down the line. Jobs as toolkits, not just split roles. Even if RDM could only just barely introduce that mindset right now, with certain balancing or instance design changes or additions to come much later, I'd love it for that. I want broadened responsibilities, more interaction, more coordination, more synergy, more use of my full toolkit... and in some cases a slightly larger or better toolkit may be needed to allow any of that seemingly extra stuff to come in handy at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Other than the new jobs,
I think the best approach to simultaneous adjustments for current Jobs is replacing cross-class skills.

......

There are a lot of cross-class skills - if replaced with new versions which offer their own nuances that cater specifically to their respective job - could redefine jobs, enhance their playstyles, their utility, etc etc. There's a lot of flexibility and design freedom if this were to happen.

Continuing to build 'on top' of this antiquated cross-class system just isn't wise, imo.

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I feel kind of conflicted on this subject. For one, I like what 1.0 seemed to be going for originally, when you were creating your own job and hero simultaneously through various learning paths. I find it sad that cross-class skills are all that remains of that, and am therefore hesitant to wish them gone—especially being the very last thing going for the all-classes-on-one-character selling point of the game or pushing for players to even experience more than one class, where in fact putting all on one character disadvantages alt-gearing where using separate characters would not—but it often has all the attractiveness of refuse. It feels immensely awkward to have 80% of your SCH or AST's dps gated almost arbitrarily behind a level 6 CNJ ability, GLD 22 just to participate in raid tanking, or LNC 34 just to get the most out of your Machinist. That said, I'm not sure I'd like to see entirely seperate near-equivalents either. I'd probably prefer that Warriors have Challenge, Dark Knights have Beckon, and Gladiators have Provoke, for instance, but can choose to swap out their native ability for another's or even take both. To me the big issues are simply identity, engagement, and intuitiveness of acquisition. There are plenty of other changes that can better secure identity or engagement than trading out all cross-class skills for class-specific versions. Nor do class-specific version necessarily mean, or are the only means to, better integration with class gameplay for the function that cross-class or newly native skill covers.

Ideally, I'd like for classes to be revised to carry more significant, gameplay-affecting or undermechanics-creating traits, many of which can be cross-classed. But what do I know? I still want physical level back so that the whole leveling experience across or including multiple classes actually feels cohesive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valmar

I too would like more Abilities, but not as many, maybe a Mix of Traits and Abilities?

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Blizzard did this with World of Warcraft. After so many expansions, there were just too many abilities. Many got mixed together. Some mixing seemed "OP" but the game was adjusted to compensate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Februs

Of course, I'm not holding my breath for this to actually happen. SE has all but admitted that they'll never do it. I don't think we've seen any meaningful tank adjustments since War got their overhaul waaaaaaaaaay back in 2.1. I'd love to know what happened to the individual who was responsible for that adjustment, because since then it's been nothing but bandage after flimsy bandage ...

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I agree that tank balance is really bad atm. Warriors are practically mandatory to have in raids due to their high dps in Deliverance and their 10% damage reduction debuff. If it wasn't for the bonus on the Limit Break bar, the other two tank classes would often get benched. There is also a TBC tank mentality in the community with Paladins being the MT class with Dark Knights doing ok if you don't have a Paladin.

I'm sure the only for that adjustment was the fact that in 2.0, Warriors were unviable for raiding and caused a huge problem.

I made these for fun. Not to be taken seriously. Intended to be over-the-top.


PLD:

62. War of Attrition -
Counterattacks for 25% of the damage received when blocking or parrying an attack. Blocks under the effect of this ability and Bulwark have 10% chance to reset each other’s recast timer.
Duration: 30s: Recast: 180s.

64. Enchanted Shield -
Enables use of Halonic Trance.
Shield Oath Additional Effect: Enables the blocking of magic. Physical damage can no longer be blocked. Absorbs 100% of blocked damage as MP.
Sword Oath Additional Effect: Enables a third auto-attack using the shield. Auto attacks restore MP.
Duration: 15s Recast: 60s

66. Anointed Soil -
Creates a patch of anointed soil that grants +15% defense and magic defense to all standing within its effect.
Duration: 15s, Recast 180s

68. Halonic Trance -
Consumes 100% of maximum MP to increase damage dealt by 10% and reduce the recast time of any abilities used under its effect by 20s. Enables the use of Climhazzard.
Duration: 25s, Recast: 120s.

70. Climhazzard -
Deals damage with a potency of 400 to all targets in a cone in front of you. and heals party members for 100% of damage dealt. Consumes Halonic Trance upon use.
Additional Effect: Ensures critical damage and generates a combo bonus for Royal Authority, Goring Blade, or Rage of Halone.
Recast: 60s.


WAR:

62. Axe Thirst -
Removes all additional effects from combo-based weaponskills while increasing their damage dealt by 25%. Increases Fracture potency to 300 in addition to its damage over time effect.
Can only be used in Deliverance. All Abandon is consumed on execution.
Duration 20s, recast 120s.

64. Storm’s Surge -
Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of 100. Deals 100 extra potency for each of Storm’s Eye and/or Storm’s Path on the target, and refreshes their duration.
Additional Effect: Storm Surge -
Storm Surge effect: For every Fell Cleave used under Storm Surge’s effect, a stack of Sleeping Beast is granted. For each stack of Sleeping Beast, the duration of the next Inner Beast used is extended by 6s up to a maximum of 18s.
Storm Surge Duration: 30s.
Sleeping Beast Duration: 30s.
Range 10y, Recast: 60s.

66. Combat Assimilation -
For the next 10 seconds, 10% of all damage you take is compiled and then converted into a shield of equal value.
Duration 10s, recast 80s.
Shield Duration: 30s.

68. Growing Threat -
Increases Vitality, Strength, Defense, and Magic Defense by 10%. Can only be used when HP is under 20%.
Duration 15s, recast 150s.

70. Berserk II -
Increases Attack Power by 75%. Only weaponskills may be used under its effect, and Wrath/Abandon can be generated but not consumed. Can only be used after dealing critical damage.
Duration:15s, recast: 180s. Effect does not stack with Berserk.


DRK:

62. Immortal Surge -
Restores 15% of maximum MP.
Grit Effect: Sacrifices 15% of maximum MP to restore 40% of maximum HP.
Dark Arts Effect: Grants Bubble. Doubles the maximum HP of a non-tank party member. Cannot be cast on self.
Duration: 15s. Recast: 80s.

64. Extraplanar Inversion -
Increases MP drain from Darkside by 300%, while causing Dark Arts to restore 1768 MP. Dark Arts can no longer boost skills. Unlocks Abyssal Shock and Rend and Sever. Can only be used With 5 stacks of Abyssal Blaze. Abyssal Blaze is generated by using Darkside abilities (Dark Arts, Dark Dance, Dark Mind, Dark Passenger). Effect fades if Darkside is lost.
Additional Effect: Increases potency of magical abilities and spells by 30%
Additional Grit Effect: Heal over time with a potency of 75.
Duration: 30s. Recast 120s.
Abyssal Blaze duration: 30s
***Potency increase affects: Unmend, Unleash, Abyssal Drain, Dark Passenger, Salted Earth

66. Rend and Sever -
Delivers 3 separate attacks with a potency of 120 each. 30% chance to reset the Carve and Spit recast timer.
Additional effect: Blood Weapon 10s.
Additional Grit effect: Reprisal 10s.
Combo action: Power Slash, Delirium, Souleater, Scourge. Consecutive combos may not end with this ability.
TP cost: 60

68. Abyssal Shock -
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 320. 30% chance to reset the Dark Passenger recast timer.
Additional Effect: Heavy. Has a 100% critical hit rate.
Additional Grit effect: Silence. Ignores Grit damage penalty.
Combo action: Power Slash, Delirium, Souleater, Scourge. Consecutive combos may not end with this ability.
MP cost: 353

70. Void Paling -
Casts Dark Mind and Dark Dance on all allies in range. Cannot be used in Grit.
Recast: 80s, MP cost: 1326 Range: 15y

Personally I would like to see a morph of two classes that makes you become a "specialist" (similar to crafting where you have a limited number of free specialisations and any switching from there out would require some work).
Example:
1. For those looking for "samurai" class... DrK + Ninja = Samurai (hybrid DPS with MP management and 2 handed sword like DrK but with SkS of NIN)
2. "Berserker" = WAR + DrK (tank with high HP and highest DPS output of all specialist tanks)
3. "Grey Tank" (lol name) = PLD + DrK (highest mitigation on both mag and phys dmg)
etc

Also, this would give a lot more depth for end-game raids and such because you are able to provide more than just conventional TANK/HEALER/DPS setup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Februs

Before I even begin to consider new abilities for the Tanks I'd love to see them address the existing problems with the ones we already have, specifically with Drk (who mostly lacks OT utility) and Pld (don't even get me started on this one). I would love for the Dev team to sit down and hammer out a detailed and viable plan for addressing the current tank balance and create a solid foundation for them to build on. Then, and only then, am I okay with seeing additions.

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The sad thing is I feel like PLD (or even simply GLD) revisions could be a gateway to a lot of interesting ideas that could stand as landmarks for future tank concepts...

A Teddy Bear Outfit A Teddy Bear Outfit

I think, the new classes are:

Tank -> samurai, wields a great katana and the playstyle will be based around counters and endurance, taking into account the playstyle of earlier ff-samurai examples.

Background will be doma for obtaining the class. U need thief and gladiator for it.

The more damage u have, the more powerful the attacks and the higher the defense will be with the ultimate move being something to kill yourself for very high damage.

Buffs will focus around strategy and positioning like the historical samurai warlords did.


DD -> red mage

Uses a rapier and consists of thaumaturg and Lancer.

Playstyle will focus around weapon magic buffs to increase damage with the weapon and using support spells to help the group. Dealing magical and physical damage as well. Will be used by the resistance of ala mhigo and be obtained from them.

The last one should be chemist, a physical healer, coming from the garleans. Since they can\\\\'t cast magic, their technology with potions has advanced a lot.

It\\\\'s a unique mix of chemist and scholar (+ whm for protect). The playstyle is perhaps a stance for fast mixing and power up / speed up potions.

Since the drinks are equivalent to a cure spell, it would be quite interesting to watch. Buffs and debuffs consist of some drinks that can be mixed (like the ninjas mudra) and have several effects.

+ a lot of new different options for playstyle
- Might need to invest some more gil than in the other classes.

But it might be fun to revive people with a Phoenix down or throw some potions around. And if it is all tp based I guess I would really enjoy this for a change.

I ascribe to the "more traits less abilities pls" school of thought.


PLD:

Traited flash: enemies vulnerable to flash's blind effect now also suffer vuln up 10% and a 30 potency dot tick for 6 seconds. Normal repeat casting resistances apply

Traited cover: The pld now gains a 50% Det up buff for 10 seconds when their covered target takes damage(of any sort). This buff refreshes but does not stack if the target takes damage more than once.

Traited sheltron: either any hit you take while in shield stance (or possibly any block) refreshes sheltron (like 20% chance), or procing the actual 100% block effect further triggers a magic damage reduction 20% ability for something like 6 seconds. I think I like the second more.

Valiance: Casting no longer interrupts combos. Using an ability that targets another party member gives you a potency up buff until your next action (good before a combo finisher or for casting heals) Alternately instead of potency up it could turn your next action into a wide AoE action.

Sword and Shield: The positive effects of sword oath and shield oath now linger for 6(or possibly 9 or 10) seconds after swapping stances


Warrior:

patch update that makes Deliverance simply switch inner beast to Fell cleave and steel cyclone to Decimate.

Warcry(traited infuriate) this ability now grants all allies either 5% damage or 10% current and max hp and healing received for 10 seconds depending on whether it's used in deliverance or defiance.

Further enhanced Fracture: this ability now inflicts slow and damage down in defiance or enhances the DoT from 20 potency to 40

Further enhanced foresight: for the 20 second duration all gcd actions generate a stack of wrath/infuriate, and combo finishers generate 2.

traited unchained: gain some sort of use in deliverance. I figure anything I could suggest would be shouted down as overpowered. I'm sure people would've thought war getting a 500 potency attack was overpowered too before 3.x did it.

-some sort of actual new ability to make up for the fact that fel cleave and decimate are basically already traits and should really be patched into such. I like the idea of an AoE leap attack with a targeting circle that inflicts very minor damage (like 30-40 potency) along with a stun or vuln up effect.

I don't play drk enough to form any opinoions on what it needs. :x

The ideas I like for PLD, addressing AOE and some misc

Overdue AOE:

1. Elixir Field (Spirit's Without). Was this skill meant for PLD, but by some typo ended up on MNK? 220 potency radial AOE OGCD ability with a 30 second recast. Thanks, worth the wait.

2. Miasma 2 (War Drum). Radial, GCD-consuming AOE. Low 50 potency hit, but with enmity modifier, an emphasis on DOT DPS (enmity modifier applies to ticks as well) and applying a tank-friendly debuff. That debuff being Slow. Will not interrupt Goring, Royal, or Halone combos.

I hope when PLD gets AOE (or 'if', even), that it's not simply a GCD-spammage attack imitating WAR's Overpower and DRK's Unleashed/Abyssal Drain. With something like the above, PLD will keep a unique AOE playstyle that still rotates Goring, but weaving all AOEs for DPS and mitigation debuffs (Blind + Slow),

Similar to the attack speed adjustments DRG got in 3.0, I'd appreciate an increased PLD attack speed, with a TP restore added to Sheltron (heck move the MP recovery to initial use instead of block, while you're at it). That way, even when not tanking, PLD has reason to Sheltron (resource sustain similar to Quick Reload).

Finally, some time in the future, let's see a raise & lower shield dualism stance mechanic added to their kit (a Cleric Stance, essentially). When on, +DMG, but no block (or less), Cover, Swipe, Bash, Bulwark, Sheltron, War Drum*. That'd kill this aweful conception that PLD should be/is the 'easy/simple' tank, and they can adapt to magical