Patch 3.26 Discussion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tagihi

But for casual teams who do prolly 9hours of raid each week struggle very hard on this.
this just help move forward.

---

My group and I raid for about 9 hours a week..7 1/2 if you take off breaks...6 if you take off time waiting for people to show up yet we will be done with a7s tonight. Quality over quantity!

Really didnt expect them to go and nerf it honestly. They let Gordias kill teams but no they go and nerf this so quickly and to be completely honest raiders should have i230 weapon by now with a overall ilvl of 225-230 or more so i cant really see these nerfs being viable ornecessary. Meanwhile teams spent 3 months clearing a3s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morzy

Really didnt expect them to go and nerf it honestly. They let Gordias kill teams but no they go and nerf this so quickly and to be completely honest raiders should have i230 weapon by now with a overall ilvl of 225-230 or more so i cant really see these nerfs being viable ornecessary. Meanwhile teams spent 3 months clearing a3s.

---

The fact that they didn't nerf A3S and it killed raiding teams and decimated the raiding scene entirely on some servers is exactly why they didn't wait around this time around.

They learned from their mistake and chose not to repeat it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morzy

Really didnt expect them to go and nerf it honestly. They let Gordias kill teams but no they go and nerf this so quickly and to be completely honest raiders should have i230 weapon by now with a overall ilvl of 225-230 or more so i cant really see these nerfs being viable ornecessary. Meanwhile teams spent 3 months clearing a3s.

---

Honestly if they looked at X%s of players actually doing and clearing such content and only saw a very little chances are they probably agreed and made the content easier. Don't see why people even do it though since there isn't a reward. :(

Back to Dark Souls 3!

And i dont raid but honestly people this is the inly form of content hardcore players have and you dont decide if these changes are okay. I dont care if you dont raid, have a little more respect and sympathy for your own community.. geez

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morzy

And i dont raid but honestly people this is the inly form of content hardcore players have and you dont decide if these changes are okay. I dont care if you dont raid, have a little more respect and sympathy for your own community.. geez

---

Who cares? In three-four months better gear will be dropping from far easier content. This isn't a game that rewards you for challenge, so the only reason to do it is Epeen stroking.

If they actually gave you a good reward, heck; I would LOVE to do it. However, doing a long stressful job and getting nothing out of it? No thanks.

This is why games like Dark Souls are so fun. Yes, you have really really hard content, but once you beat it; you most likely get something way worth the effort for what you did, it feels good. When you go through all that stress, and get nothing? .... The content's armor isn't even GOOD looking.

The developers saw a very low % clear rate. So they went ahead and adjusted it to see what the numbers were after.

People say "it's only the second fight in the tier". If SE gets away with nerfing one fight that people have been able to clear already. What's stopping them from nerfing more fights because they want "more people to clear"?

It's SAVAGE for a reason, if one group can do it, any group can do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HPDelron

At the end of the day what is or isn't "Too Hard" is subjective, it is an opinion. The only opinion that counts on the issue is SE's who are likely making the decision based on metrics. They want a certain % of groups that attempt the content to pass it, and they want the groups that pass it to pass it in a certain amount of time. If they're nerfing something now it's either because fewer people are passing it and are passing it more slowly than they want or the nerf was always scheduled as a planned part of the contents lifecycle. I'd personally suspect the former more than the latter, but only they know for sure. At any rate they certainly didn't do it satisfy whatever your particular agenda is, or run afoul of whatever your personal hangups are. They're looking to make sure the content they produced is performing in the capacity they wanted no more no less.

---

^^ well said

I imagine the accuracy fix for Antitower/LCoA(HM) is basically the Healer fix?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miscreant

I would rather have Echo, you can turn it off so the fight gets preserved in it's original form.

---

When you're looking at magnitudes raid-wide damage doing 15k with paralyze, echo doesn't help that (just like how echo doesn't help on fights like T7 or t9). Not to say it won't make the fight easier in some sense, but it doesn't resolve why most groups can't get through it if they don't have the luxury of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimoori

People say "it's only the second fight in the tier". If SE gets away with nerfing one fight that people have been able to clear already. What's stopping them from nerfing more fights because they want "more people to clear"?

It's SAVAGE for a reason, if one group can do it, any group can do it.

---

It doesn't make sense in any perspective for a fight that isn't the final one to have a significantly high difficulty jump, let alone the difficulty curve be out of order (since a7s is arguably easier than a6s)

Looking beyond the intent of the dungeon, that's been a problem since 3.x. Savage is the to-go raid difficulty for any form of static. You can't look at anyone straight in the eyes and say normal mode or void ark is supposed to be just that. The closest you'd get were the EX trials, and those are incredibly far and few inbetween. A3s and the raiding scene is a perfect example of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

This is why games like Dark Souls are so fun. Yes, you have really really hard content, but once you beat it; you most likely get something way worth the effort for what you did, it feels good. When you go through all that stress, and get nothing? .... The content's armor isn't even GOOD looking.

---

This is...the same scenario except for 1 key point; Dark souls is a single player game. The time investment is all on you and can be done on your own pacing. Getting 7 other people to meet that critera, not so much and it can easily lead to burn out and frustration when one more or are holding you back. Dark souls is popular as is because of the soul-crushing difficulty, not the rewards it gives for doing so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If they actually gave you a good reward, heck; I would LOVE to do it. However, doing a long stressful job and getting nothing out of it? No thanks.

This is why games like Dark Souls are so fun. Yes, you have really really hard content, but once you beat it; you most likely get something way worth the effort for what you did, it feels good. When you go through all that stress, and get nothing? .... The content's armor isn't even GOOD looking.

---

The reward isn't anything tangible like gear or mounts and glamour. The reward is the content itself. People don't play Dark Souls to get a good weapon, they play it because it's a challenging and fun game in general.

The excuse of "it's just gonna be outdated later, why bother" is a terrible one. If you don't like the fights then by all means don't do it. But don't blame the lack of reward for not doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Who cares? In three-four months better gear will be dropping from far easier content. This isn't a game that rewards you for challenge, so the only reason to do it is Epeen stroking.

If they actually gave you a good reward, heck; I would LOVE to do it. However, doing a long stressful job and getting nothing out of it? No thanks.

---

What about just enjoying the mechanics of and the feeling of accomplishment that comes from doing something difficult with a team? The best thing about raiding is that feeling of wanting to put in one more attempt because the one you just did was "The last one for tonight" but you wound up making it to the next phase or got 5% closer to down before wipe. The best thing about raiding is the celebration on voice chat when the boss finally goes down. The best thing about raiding is being to poke fun at someone when they slip up and die to some mechanic you had on farm months ago.

The reward is not in whatever meaningless bit of stats and icons that happen to drop, however good or crappy they may be. The loot is a means to an end. The reward is the social engagement that comes from doing the content. The "Epeen stroking" as you put is at best an enjoyable side-benefit when folks start to get all high and mighty about how stupid they think raiding is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

When you're looking at magnitudes raid-wide damage doing 15k with paralyze, echo doesn't help that (just like how echo doesn't help on fights like T7 or t9). Not to say it won't make the fight easier in some sense, but it doesn't resolve why most groups can't get through it if they don't have the luxury of time.

---

Lets face it though, if you don't have the luxury of time the raids in this game probably aren't for you.

But thats silly anyway, everyone in my static is in full time employment, lawyers, designer, programmers etc one guy even has a wife and kids on top of that, we still manage our time well enough to be on the last 10% of A7S.

With Dark Knight's Dark Arts changes you can get faster DA Abyssal Drains and you can reliably stack DA Dark Dance and DA Dark Passenger at about the same time for lots of increased Parry and lots of Evasion. And getting DA Souleater > DA CnS is more lenient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Who cares? In three-four months better gear will be dropping from far easier content. This isn't a game that rewards you for challenge, so the only reason to do it is Epeen stroking.

If they actually gave you a good reward, heck; I would LOVE to do it. However, doing a long stressful job and getting nothing out of it? No thanks.

This is why games like Dark Souls are so fun. Yes, you have really really hard content, but once you beat it; you most likely get something way worth the effort for what you did, it feels good. When you go through all that stress, and get nothing? .... The content's armor isn't even GOOD looking.

---

we need a dislike button

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Who cares? In three-four months better gear will be dropping from far easier content. This isn't a game that rewards you for challenge, so the only reason to do it is Epeen stroking.

If they actually gave you a good reward, heck; I would LOVE to do it. However, doing a long stressful job and getting nothing out of it? No thanks.

This is why games like Dark Souls are so fun. Yes, you have really really hard content, but once you beat it; you most likely get something way worth the effort for what you did, it feels good. When you go through all that stress, and get nothing? .... The content's armor isn't even GOOD looking.

The developers saw a very low % clear rate. So they went ahead and adjusted it to see what the numbers were after.

---

If you are doing raiding just for the gear and not the thrill of accomplishing a difficult task with your fellow party members, then I feel sorry for you. Farming gear to most people is an afterthought or a means to make progression on the next piece of content easier. Its something you think about after the clear. By your logic, we should not play at all because what we do eventually gets outdated for new content.

Also, its funny you talk about Dark Souls, since it's purpose falls into the same category as Savage raids. Its about the accomplishment of defeating a really hard boss or obstacle in Dark Souls, not what piece of gear you get with it.

You seem to be on the extreme end of being materialistic in your online games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miscreant

Lets face it though, if you don't have the luxury of time the raids in this game probably aren't for you.

But thats silly anyway, everyone in my static is in full time employment, lawyers, designer, programmers etc one guy even has a wife and kids on top of that, we still manage our time well enough to be on the last 10% of A7S.

---

Did you want a medal? These changes were likely implemented for the groups who've been stuck in the fight due to the difficulty of the first few bosses in the encounter causing time to be wasted. Some groups emply vastly different strategies that might cause different problems or cause zero problems. Half my server's raid scene is still in there working on mostly vortexer and swindler, and I'm sure if I asked, most of them would probably tell me the reason that's still the case is because of all the crap that can happen before you even reach those nerds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

we need a dislike button

---

He just doesn't understand raiding, it's not about the gear/rewards it's about beating the fights...not to say that the gear isn't appreciated

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jssanderson747

Did you want a medal? These changes were likely implemented for the groups who've been stuck in the fight due to the difficulty of the first few bosses in the encounter causing time to be wasted. Some groups emply vastly different strategies that might cause different problems or cause zero problems. Half my server's raid scene is still in there working on mostly vortexer and swindler, and I'm sure if I asked, most of them would probably tell me the reason that's still the case is because of all the crap that can happen before you even reach those nerds.

---

Someone a bit salty? Maybe misunderstood the context of my post too?

I went through the exact same stuff as those groups on your server and we 100% have a worst strategy than those groups, we don't bait the Mirages, we place them whereever then expect everyone else to dodge.

It would be ironic for all those complaining about the nerfs while not having the kill to still go into A6S this reset an still wipe on it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miscreant

Lets face it though, if you don't have the luxury of time the raids in this game probably aren't for you.

.

---

That's kinda my point, there's no other raid otherwise. It's savage and EX trials when it comes to static raiding. That aside though, there being no raid suited for those type of players is what causes end game to bleed like it did in gordias. Normal Mode could have been for that, but instead it's DF-level for a weekly clear to get gear pieces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miyaka_Vigiles

It would be ironic for all those complaining about the nerfs while not having the kill to still go into A6S this reset an still wipe on it

---

It really wouldn't be. While I certainly think changes like these are generally sound and that taking them as personal insults is incredibly unproductive, I can emphasize where these folks are coming from.

Even if the nerfs don't get them a clear right away, even if they spend another 2 weeks wiping on it they'll know that whenever do they finish that the fight they finished was not the fight they started on. Before the nerfs the question was "Can we beat this?" after the nerfs the question is "Could we have beaten that" and they'll never get a chance to really know. That's true regardless of how things turn out with the new version for them.

That's a loss and one that's normal to be disappointed about, even if the reasoning & timing behind the nerfs are sound.

Meanwhile, I'm just over here happy that my spells will actually land with my WHM in Expert Roulette now. >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's kinda my point, there's no other raid otherwise. It's savage and EX trials when it comes to static raiding. That aside though, there being no raid suited for those type of players is what causes end game to bleed like it did in gordias. Normal Mode could have been for that, but instead it's DF-level for a weekly clear to get gear pieces.

---

To be honest i thought we were talking about going back to raids with Echo, being as you replied to my comment about Echo. But I follow you now, surely if you want to raid and you have no free time you go into these thing expecting this? Raiding is a big time sink, there's not a lot you can do about that. I only raid for 7-10 hours a week (varies week by week) if I had less time than that I wouldn't raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HPDelron

What about just enjoying the mechanics of and the feeling of accomplishment that comes from doing something difficult with a team? The best thing about raiding is that feeling of wanting to put in one more attempt because the one you just did was "The last one for tonight" but you wound up making it to the next phase or got 5% closer to down before wipe. The best thing about raiding is the celebration on voice chat when the boss finally goes down. The best thing about raiding is being to poke fun at someone when they slip up and die to some mechanic you had on farm months ago.

The reward is not in whatever meaningless bit of stats and icons that happen to drop, however good or crappy they may be. The loot is a means to an end. The reward is the social engagement that comes from doing the content. The "Epeen stroking" as you put is at best an enjoyable side-benefit when folks start to get all high and mighty about how stupid they think raiding is.

---

I don't care about epeen stroking or accomplishments. I care about gear and being better then everyone else. 10 points of strength and vit isn't really enough to compensate for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is...the same scenario except for 1 key point; Dark souls is a single player game. The time investment is all on you and can be done on your own pacing. Getting 7 other people to meet that critera, not so much and it can easily lead to burn out and frustration when one more or are holding you back. Dark souls is popular as is because of the soul-crushing difficulty, not the rewards it gives for doing so.

---

A lot easier when there is a reward for it. Like something cool for the effort, but games are not like that these days unfortunately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't care about epeen stroking

---

Quote:

---

I care about being better then everyone else.

---

Interesting.

I'll just enjoy more chances for CT music sheets and let everyone else care about raiding. Maybe care a little about PvP but I've never been one to do a lot of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Interesting.

---

Huge difference. Epeen stroking is basicly saying: "I did this and this and this.", "Being better" is pretty much being stronger, however you don't have to rub it in any persons face, you 'are' stronger, you don't need to brag about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miscreant

But when you think about it, thats what you do with every boss fight, you have to make it through the old mechanics to practice the new ones. Outside of running to the next phase it's no different when you think about it.

---

Shhhh I know that but most people don't realize it. They only see 4 separate bosses of which they keep wiping on the same 2-3. For some reason it causes people to burn out quicker.

People need to stop with the "they didnt do this for A3S so why are they doing it for this?"

The fact that they didnt for A3S and what followed is exactly WHY they are doing it this time.

On the topic of changes:

- I have very little opinion on the balance changes, they seem to be mostly aimed at PvP afaik?

- PvP changes, didn't even read - I don't partake.

- In terms of the raid, I think it is great they are balancing. For those that are complaining they are not playing the true raid, well the true raid is whatever Square decides. Have no doubt that it was probably even harder than it was at release during the testing - should this be considered the true version? Perhaps we just need to have longer content droughts so that they can test things further and ensure they will not need nerfing post release - this would need to likely be accompanied by a public test realm. Personally, I am fine with the way they are doing things.

- In terms of accuracy in expert, I feel this was unnecessary. We already had a method of getting to accuracy requirements through melding. In fact, I liked that we had a choice "Should I meld CRIT for oh-so-sweet adlo's or meld accuracy for DPS?". I still have that, being in savage, but it reduces choice for others. Pretty lame imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Huge difference. Epeen stroking is basicly saying: "I did this and this and this.", "Being better" is pretty much being stronger, however you don't have to rub it in any persons face, you 'are' stronger, you don't need to brag about it.

---

epeen stroking refers to showing off that you are better than someone else (or making that your goal). Saying "I want to be better than everyone else" is making being better than everyone else your goal, hence it is epeen stroking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't care about epeen stroking or accomplishments. I care about gear and being better then everyone else. 10 points of strength and vit isn't really enough to compensate for that.

---

What you care about is not salient when dealing with a post where you actively accuse others of only doing something for an "EPeen" stroking. When you try to ascribe motivations to others and denounce them for it the only relevant information is what their motivations actually are. If you like or find meaning in those things is inconsequential to the defence of the point my post was refuting.

Trying to fall back on "Well I don't like it" is a feeble attempt at misdirection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't care about epeen stroking or accomplishments. I care about gear and being better then everyone else. 10 points of strength and vit isn't really enough to compensate for that.

---

https://media.giphy.com/media/tLql6mMHC6wvK/giphy.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miscreant

Someone a bit salty? Maybe misunderstood the context of my post too?

---

I'm almost assuredly associating your comment with the earlier ones of dudes bragging that they were clearing before nerf and didn't need it or something. That + the whole "shouldn't be raiding if don't have the time" thing gave me the wrong idea I guess. Nonetheless, it's not fair to assume groups being able to clear it faster is a bad thing. Getting more people into 7 and 8 is kinda what they wanted I imagine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Huge difference. Epeen stroking is basicly saying: "I did this and this and this.", "Being better" is pretty much being stronger, however you don't have to rub it in any persons face, you 'are' stronger, you don't need to brag about it.

---

What's the point of being "stronger" than everyone else if all you do is a bunch of mindless tasks that take no skill?
What's the point of having strength if it goes to waste?

I can't fault SE for nerfing A6S this early. The way it was going, it seems like community reaction to that fight was starting to venture dangerously close into A3S territory, even if mechanically the fight wasn't anywhere near as stupid as that. You know, the static/raid killer that SE didn't do anything about until it was arguably too late for a lot of people.

Give it a few days to a week.

People will get over it and stop bickering talking about it entirely once the initial outrage blows over as with echo/Steps of Faith. Same song and dance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Well, SE didn't want to take any chances given what happened with Gordias. Last time they figured leaving it alone and hoping that providing higher ilvl gear (Thordan and Diadem) would make the difference, but by then the damage was already done with statics breaking up and players server transferring.

---

Their mistake was thinking that giving out 205/210 gear would get more people through A3S. The difficulty of that fight had very little to do with dps checks.

Dat accuracy adjustment

maybe it wont be stupid now

I'm in a mostly casual raid group, and I am okay with the changes to AS6...but just okay.

We have yet to clear, but I feel like that is because we needed to iron things out a bit more (read: derp less).

That said, I feel like the changes are extremely heavy-handed. A couple of minor tweaks would have sufficed in this instance, I think.

I can't speak to the difficulty of AS7, but I feel like the complaining seems a little unwarranted as both AS1 and AS2 were the turns that more casual groups were able to clear. Does today's adjustment not make Midas more akin to Gordias in that regard, or is AS7 just that easy? .__.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skapoc

A5S was already a joke and now A6S will be one as well. A7S isn't hard either. Guess we can look forward to only one hard fight each raid tier. Thats kinda disappointing.

---

oh, so you beat them on your first try with item level 210 or something and were actaully better than world first teams?