Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf

edit incoming

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Oversimplification

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This is a gross oversimplification. Let's take a full set of Lv30 PLD gear.

http://i.imgur.com/e4MCYqw.png

Pre-patch, the STR set would have been 36 AP and the VIT set would have been 26 AP.
Post-patch, STR set is 27.45 AP and VIT set is 27.45 AP.

Here's the thing. The STR gear isn't a tank gear set, despite what popular opinion may have been, and it's not SE's responsibility to support or even consider it.
For any tank who was wearing actual tank gear, this is a buff.


But the worst part of your argument is that "low level tanks have all just lost a significant chunk of their damage output". Low level tanks were probably not running around in level-appropriate gear, let alone level-appropriate STR gear, and any PLD who was running around in STR gear, without Shield Oath, was pissing off healers because he was too much work to heal. Besides the obvious part where this is just asking for a bad time, it was causing the healers to generate more hate because the PLD in question couldn't be bothered to gear properly.


Tanks who were actually wearing tank gear got a buff, and anyone who's still having problems with hate generation are

• undergeared, requiring healers to heal more
• not mitigating enough damage, requiring healers to heal more

There is also the possibility of

• the DDs don't know what they're doing, and distributing their damage output inappropriately
• the healer doesn't know what he's doing, and healing far too liberally

though neither of these is a problem with tank hate generation; they are strictly skill-based problems that you'll run into regardless of how godly one might think he is with a shield/axe/BFS; and neither is as likely as the scenarios in the first bullet list, especially with the rate at which people rush through the lower level content these days, neglecting to take the time to keep their gear current.

@60 in very good gear it's still hard to hold enmity against elite DPS without your tank stance, especially on cold pick-ups.

That's the situation you're in as a PLD before ShO.

The reality is they nerfed tank damage and buffed our tank stance enmity to compensate. That doesn't help when you don't have your tank stance yet. They also buffed PLD's SB enmity modifier but that's probably not enough given that many low-level PLDs were already struggling before the changes.

All left side gear has both VIT and STR at almost equal amounts. Lets have a look at dungeon gear between levels 15 and 18:

Plundered Celata: 2 STR 2 VIT
Plundered Cuirass: 3 STR 3 VIT
Plundered Gauntlets: 2 STR 2 VIT
Plundered Plate Belt: 1 STR 1 VIT
Plundered Trousers: 3 STR 3 VIT
Plundered Sabatons: 2 STR 2 VIT
Plundered Ear Cuffs: 1 STR
Aetherial Brass Gorget: 1 STR
Aetherial Brass Ring: 1 STR
Aetherial Brass Ring: 1 STR
Aetherial Hard Leather Wristbands: 1 STR

AP before patch 3.2 (from STR): 18 * 1.00 = 18
AP after patch 3.2 (from STR and VIT): 31 * 0.45 = 13.95

If we take into account the stupidly OP low level ring which didn't exist before patch 3.2:
Brand-new Ring: 3 STR 3 VIT
Take off one Brass Ring: -1 STR
AP after patch (from STR and VIT): 36 * 0.45 = 16.2

16.2AP / 18AP = 0.90 = 90%, so there has been a drop of 10% attack power for tanks at this gear level when no food is being used.

I cba to write all the gear down but at level 26 using the best tank gear from dungeons the loss of AP has been 19% when the Brand-new ring is used, or 16% with the ring and VIT food. I used Garland Tools to find the best low level gear.

Now lets look at 3.2 patch notes:

Savage Blade The amount of enmity generated has been increased.
Shield Oath Damage penalty has been reduced from 20% to 15%. The amount of enmity generated has been increased.
Defiance The amount of enmity generated has been increased.
Grit The amount of enmity generated has been increased.

It's a reasonable expectation that since tank stances were buffed this patch the buff would make up for the AP loss, because why else would SE suddenly buff the tank stances? WAR and DRK might struggle below level 30 but would feel no different from level 30 onward (which is where DRK starts from anyway). Paladins get their tank stance later, but they get Savage Blade before their first dungeon. The SB buff likely makes up for some of the AP loss for those players who know how to cycle targets, but it would have to be a pretty big buff to make up for the stat change all the way to level 40. The effect of the Brand-new Ring diminishes the more levels you gain, so for PLD the AP and threat loss (compared to before patch) could be as high as 25% before they get their tank stance.

The only fix needed, imo, is to swap Shield and Sword Oath levels so Paladins are in line with the other tanks. This needed to be done a long time ago though.

EDIT. Fixed the mistakes in the bolded parts (old values were 21% and 19%) and clarified that the 10% AP drop is without VIT food.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

What part of this is hard to understand?

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1. It is only a real problem for them when they are undergeared or unskilled as a tank yet. Before and now.

2. If the problem was always there, asking for the old damage back will do almost NOTHING TO HELP.
It has always been an issue for new/undergeared tanks at low levels, and bringing the old damage back will do almost nothing to help them at all. THAT is my point

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Hypothetically, if you are correct and it's always been a problem with low level tanks holding threat, you are then admitting there is a problem with low level tanks ability to hold threat.

But here's the reality:

Before Patch:

4 STR = 4 AP

After Patch:


4 STR = 1.76 AP

2 STR + 2 VIT = 1.76 AP

4 VIT = 1.76 AP

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4 vit + 4 str (the spread you'll find on those items) : 3.52 AP.

Oh, look at that. It seems like left side attack power is roughly the same.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

4 vit + 4 str (the spread you'll find on those items) : 3.52 AP.

Oh, look at that. It seems like left side attack power is roughly the same.

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Except it's not until level 28/29 that you start to get actual tank accessories. Before then, the supposed tank accessories (actually one bracelet only, the coral armillae) are worse* than the regular DoW accessories (+1 Vit, +1 (2) Crit vs +1 Str, +1 Dex, +1 (2) Acc). It's also at lvl19 instead of lvl17, meaning most tanks will likely already have the hard leather wristband and see little reason to change. (Experienced players because it doesn't really matter whether you get +1 Vit or +1 Str, and inexperienced players because clearly three different stats is better than just two.)

And no matter how you look at it, where you earlier had
4 STR + 4 VIT = 4 AP
you now have
4 STR + 4 VIT = 3.52 AP
It's not much of a difference, but it is a lower number. Combined with mostly STR accessories, low level tanks will definitely experience lower damage output, which means lower aggro generation. After all, most of the tanks' right side will follow the "4 STR + 0 VIT" formula instead of "4 STR + 4 VIT".

It seems to me that the increase in tank stance enmity generation was to offset the generally lower DPS output (unless you were running full VIT before the change and thus got slightly higher damage). But considering lower gear (pre 30) lacks in VIT accessories, those tanks will pretty much only see lower damage output. And they don't have tank stances to make up for that.

So I slightly agree with the OP. While it's not entirely gamebreaking, and it is possible to hold aggro (most of the time) against synched DPS -- especially if you have experience already from other tank classes or the same class on another character -- it is harder now than it was before. Pre-30, that is. I wish SE had taken that into consideration when making this change.


*) worse in that at those levels, Accuracy is kinda important.

I was fully behind the change, and yet as I level Paladin, I can't help but notice that, yeah, it is kinda hard to hold stuff. I mean I'm doing what I can and it's not a disaster most often but it's pretty noticeable. I have HQ gear in every slot and a lot of tanking experience, but it's a little hectic nonetheless, so I can see where some people who are just getting into tanking might actually be running into problems. And that really is the larger point, isn't it? With how rough it is to get a tank, we don't wanna discourage people from doing it by making the early part hard.

gona chime in here & state that just yesterday me and a friend did leveling roullete (he was lv60 PLD tank, didn't need the xp) & we got Quarn NM now no Shield oath allowed was his biggest problem arrgo wise but even when me (MCH) & the other DPS (SMN) were attacking the same mob it took everything he had (even FoF) to keep us at yellow status on arrgo (if I also remeber right that dungeon doesn't allow Rage of Halone) so yes its hard even when LV/gear synced but it ant impossible... it just gets worse if u'r dps attack diff targets & u'r low/under geared

Will state thou that if my memory serves me right I had just as much trouble in the same dungeon back in 2.1 lving my PLD (1st class) & I made sure I was geared to my lv in vit rightside for survival, so can't say its affected low lv tanking much it just mostly affected low low STR tanking which seams stupid to do at pre-50 back then anyway.

After reading this I thought I'd be going through hell level my GLD/PLD the last 2 days. Threat has literally been a non-issue whatsoever and I'm still under 40 and don't have Shield Oath. This didn't affect low level tanking at all, assuming you actually know how to tank.

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Originally Posted by Sanumas

After reading this I thought I'd be going through hell level my GLD/PLD the last 2 days. Threat has literally been a non-issue whatsoever and I'm still under 40 and don't have Shield Oath. This didn't affect low level tanking at all, assuming you actually know how to tank.

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depends on the gear of everyone else honestly. If you have a high lvl'd dps who actually knows what they are doing then yeah its gonna suck even if you know how to tank. Doesn't mean much if around same lvl.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I've actually only seen this very few times, and usually, it's from tanks who try to participate in content while severely undergeared.

Flash twice on pull, rotate your Rage of Halone combo around your mobs, keep up with your gear, and you'll be fine. Having just leveled several classes on a new alt in 3.2, I can confirm this is the case.

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Many low-level tanks (new or sync'd) should not blame the change to VIT. I can honestly say, even as a GLD, or low-level/sync'd PLD, DRK, or WAR, that I can keep enemies at me. It all comes down to how lazy/active the tank is.

I see tanks Shield Lob the first mob, Flash, then hit that same mob again. It would help them to start the combo on the next mob instead of heavily relying on Flash.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Many low-level tanks (new or sync'd) should not blame the change to VIT. I can honestly say, even as a GLD, or low-level/sync'd PLD, DRK, or WAR, that I can keep enemies at me. It all comes down to how lazy/active the tank is.

I see tanks Shield Lob the first mob, Flash, then hit that same mob again. It would help them to start the combo on the next mob instead of heavily relying on Flash.

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You have to account that low level tanks are largely 99% tanks that just start out. Obviously they will suck at it until they fully grasp how enmity works and etc. Obviously veteran players will have no issue at all even without tank stances, but it's an entirely different argument at this point since it's mostly the tanks being new and that's pretty much it. I haven't done any of The Training Hall, so I am wondering if SE put enmity lessons in it. The game needs to force players (especially new players) to participate in the training before he/she can queue dungeons.

They did put enemity lessons in it for Tanks, can confirm from an alt which I did PLD with. Had one for both GLD's at the time enemity combo, Shield Lobbing, and for Flash. I assume WAR and (if its there since) DRK have there own versions focusing on their own abilities. Pretty much all of the Tank Novice Hall training is about enemity.

The gear you get from it is also as good as lvl 15 green dungeon drops which helps a good bit for keeping hate at those levels. Only thing that would make it better is if they also got weapons.

Ran levelling roulette today together with two friends... We got a first-timer gladiator in tam-tara. With us other three having job stones equipped (and thus getting our stats boosted slightly) and being synched, he had little chance of keeping aggro. He was also on controller, I assume, since he said nothing and kept walking (not running) at times, something that's a lot easier on controller than on keyboard.

Honestly, Heavy Thrust and then two or three Impulse Drives, and I'd be at orange. Me and the bard kept stealing aggro. Our healer didn't even dare to dps, since they already stole aggro at least once per mob group through the bare-necessity healing they did. We tried to give advice on using more Flash (especially with more than one mob), and apologized for making his job impossible. And before we left, I told the gladiator not to feel bad, since tanking can be really tricky before level 26. (Rage of Halone does a lot when it comes to tanking, and always made me jealous that as a marauder you not only have to wait till 30, but you have to do your lvl 30 quest as well ;_; Buuuut on the other hand we get tank stance at 30, and paladins have to wait till 40, so I guess it... evens out?)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

I assume WAR and (if its there since) DRK have there own versions focusing on their own abilities.

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Yep, they do. The main difference, of course, is that the dialogue is probably using some sort of code for "combo skill 1" and "combo skill 2". But I did the tank ones as PLD on my main, since my WAR is 60 and I didn't want to lose out on the (paltry) exp. Did them later as WAR/MRD on an alt, and realized that the dummies for the Flash/Unleashed/Overpower excercise has them placed slightly differently for MRD, to account for their AoE aggro being a cone instead of a circle.
(I also got told off for using my cross-classed Flash ;_; How rude!)

I haven't noticed any difficulty with tanking as DRK at low levels.
Playing PLD synced in things like Tam Tara and Toto-Rak hasn't been an issue either. (Although one might argue that synced down gear is a tad stronger than level-appropriate gear)

If the tank is some guy using an NQ 8+ underleveled weapon, then maybe there could be a problem.

I started both a fresh MRD and GLD for 3.2 and did not have problems.

When playing as a DPS, some tanks held threat, many didn't. When playing as a DPS with an experienced tank buddy of mine who started a new tank, there was no problem.

I'll go as far as saying tanks have the highest entry-lvl learning curve, but it's not as if the game's math doesn't allow you to keep threat. Well, so long as you keep your gear up to date, but that's on you.

To be fair, in many ways the game is new tank friendly. As fresh low-level tank, you could get hit by every avoidable AoE, not hold threat the entire dungeon, and your group is still likely to complete the duty without wiping.

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Originally Posted by winsock

To be fair, in many ways the game is new tank friendly. As fresh low-level tank, you could get hit by every avoidable AoE, not hold threat the entire dungeon, and your group is still likely to complete the duty without wiping.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but the bombs that self destruct in Copperbell are a guaranteed death if the tank stands in them?

I don't see the problem.

99% of all tanks that lose aggro against my AST simply fail to continually use Flash.

I don't get it.
mark kill order -> go in with bodypull -> Flash till 50% mana -> recoup mana on focus target according to kill order.
If mobs live very long I dump an additional 25% mana into flashes to be on the safe side, but that's probably overkill.

The game tooltips are misleading. They need to tell people that FLASH is their main TPS spell at low level, not some herp-a-derp singe target combo.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but the bombs that self destruct in Copperbell are a guaranteed death if the tank stands in them?

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Depends on your gear. If you are scaled down: no. If you are in real low level gear: yes.

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Originally Posted by AriKitae

Correct me if I am wrong, but the bombs that self destruct in Copperbell are a guaranteed death if the tank stands in them?

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Im not 100% sure, but want to say you can survive in lvl appropriate gear.

Either way though, a wipe caused by this mistake is very, very unlikely. Wipes due to tank poor tank performance don't start for awhile.

The main issue with blaming this on the Vit and str changes is the fact that is actually has barely any effect on early tanking

You cant tell me that if these new tanks that are losing aggro tanked the same way in the same gear they are now before 3.2 they wouldnt be losing aggro just as fast

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Originally Posted by Zari

The main issue with blaming this on the Vit and str changes is the fact that is actually has barely any effect on early tanking

You cant tell me that if these new tanks that are losing aggro tanked the same way in the same gear they are now before 3.2 they wouldnt be losing aggro just as fast

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It's not only the Vit and Str changes. It's the over-all lowering of tank damage -- provided you weren't in full Vit accessories, something low-level tanks won't be pre-30, because there are no Vit accessories until you hit 28 (apart from one puny bracelet at 19). Yes, it's "only" 10-20% dps loss (I don't remember the exact numbers anymore), and that's not that much at those levels, but it's still enough that it can make a difference for someone learning the class.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I started both a fresh MRD and GLD for 3.2 and did not have problems.

When playing as a DPS, some tanks held threat, many didn't. When playing as a DPS with an experienced tank buddy of mine who started a new tank, there was no problem.

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Yeah, the key word is "experienced", I'd say. And even if you hadn't played any tank jobs before, you've still been made aware of the issues while levelling healer. (It's easier to not make mistakes if you've seen other tanks make those same mistakes over and over, after all.)

Like you said, I agree that tanking has one of the most difficult learning curves. I'm not saying the math doesn't allow people to hold threat, I'm saying it makes it more difficult than pre-3.2 for low-level tanks. And since the majority of low-level tanks are likely to be players who are entirely new to the class, it's my opinion that SE probably should have tried to figure out some way to help boosting aggro for low-level tanks instead of relying on aggro boosting via tank stance to alleviate the (potential) dps loss.

(I'm also fairly convinced that they made adjustments to the level synch math that makes you stronger when synched down compared to pre-3.2. I can't prove it, but it feels like we've been burning through things a lot faster when we've gone into stuff with a full, synched party than we used to. And if they did that, that makes it even more difficult for new, non-synched tanks when they end up with synched DDs.)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Like you said, I agree that tanking has one of the most difficult learning curves.

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Oh please.

Low level tanking is pure faceroll.
You go in, spam you AE threat move as hard as mana allows, after that you regen mana.
Pop a cooldown when damage gets heavy.

Boom. You can now successfully tank every low level dungeon out there.
They only need to revise their damn tooltips. Players think they are supposed to spam the single target enmity combo because it says "does extra aggro" yet it is completely, utterly useless before you get Halone and it's still useless for unmarked AoE tanking. (good on bosses AFTER you get Halone though)

Tanking is not hard. The following can make tanking hard:
Healers that instantly heal you the moment you drop 5% or spam HoTs on pull -> instant healer aggro.
DPS that go FULL DERP on one single mob and ignore the aggro indicator. Sure ofc they will rip threat off you if they tunnel on one mob in an AoE scenario.
Crap gear vs downscaled DPS. This one can truly be a pain, esp for a new player that doesn't have the luxury of crafting a quick HQ set.

Tanking by itself is probably the easiest role in FF.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

(I'm also fairly convinced that they made adjustments to the level synch math that makes you stronger when synched down compared to pre-3.2. I can't prove it, but it feels like we've been burning through things a lot faster when we've gone into stuff with a full, synched party than we used to. And if they did that, that makes it even more difficult for new, non-synched tanks when they end up with synched DDs.)

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I too have that impression when doing random lv 50 dungeons. Everything just keels over so fast.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Tanking by itself is probably the easiest role in FF.

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Absolutely. After all, it's human nature to seek out the path of least resistance and take on the tasks that require the least effort. Which is why tanks are by far the most played...

...oh.

Tank: 0/1 Healer: 1/1 DPS: 2/2
Time Expired: 21:59

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Tank: 0/1 Healer: 1/1 DPS: 2/2
Time Expired: 21:59

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I play all three roles, so I know what I am talking about. Tanking is by far the easiest role. You just stand there and mash buttons. Even if you do horribly with your cooldowns, you can always pull groups one at a time. Even w/o CDs the healer will twiddle it's thumbs 80% of the time.

Remember: we're talking low level dungeons here. Tanking in raids is a completely different beast.

Why are there so little tanks? Because a tank automatically gets "the leader" role and critical fails are VERY obvious (as opposed to DPS that is sheltered by SE not even allowing a DPS meter). Many people are not comfortable with that.
Me included, which is why you will not see me tanking in raids, b/c I have no desire to get flamed to death by kiddies for daring to make a mistake that wiped the raid.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Tanking by itself is probably the easiest role in FF.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Tanking in raids is a completely different beast.

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The sentiment is quite the same as mine. It's quite appaling that the standard deviation for tanks is really wide in terms of overall effectiveness (DPS department mostly). You can get tanks doing 300dps and on lucky days, you get tanks doing 700-1kdps. People claim PLD is so easy to do, *proceed to do that little dps*. How can an OT do way less than a MT, you ask? DF sure has it rolling a lot.

The mentality is a total different kind overall that as long as you become aware of more things, you pretty much can do a whole lot more than just "playing" the game like those 500dps players all around. And people have the gall to say that these people who nitpick about DPS are elitists.

Side story: I had an experience of people telling me that it was toxic of me to point out that their DPS was low, in Sephirot Ex farm party. Like really? 3 DPS doing 800dps each is farm quality? How is me pointing out low dps being toxic in any way? This is literally the first game that doesn't endorse exposing shit DPS for whatever reason and you can be reported for it. Also, very little amount of tutorials that AREN'T forced upon the newbies to get better. What happens when those exact players try to raid? They get roasted really easy. This is exactly why PUGs stagnate upon arrival of latest raids, because they don't know how tuned FFXIV raids are and there are little stuff in-game to help them improve.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Yeah, the key word is "experienced"

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Yep. No argument there.

However, I will argue that the "experience" in question is limited almost solely to the 'feel' of the game's enmity system, and tanks need that 'feel' to play their class well.

IMO, there is no better place to learn it than at the early levels where little to no harm will come to the rest of your party for the mistakes a new tank will inevitably make. This is especially true when considering that only the douchiest and most ignorant members of the community, which are few and far between from my experience, would give a lowbie a hard time for not perfectly holding threat.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The sentiment is quite the same as mine. It's quite appaling that the standard deviation for tanks is really wide in terms of overall effectiveness (DPS department mostly). You can get tanks doing 300dps and on lucky days, you get tanks doing 700-1kdps. People claim PLD is so easy to do, *proceed to do that little dps*. How can an OT do way less than a MT, you ask? DF sure has it rolling a lot.

The mentality is a total different kind overall that as long as you become aware of more things, you pretty much can do a whole lot more than just "playing" the game like those 500dps players all around. And people have the gall to say that these people who nitpick about DPS are elitists.

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Uff.. to be honest: I have 0 clue how to do DPS with a tank.

I press buttons every 2.5s, try to keep all cooldown moves on cooldown when it makes sense (placing salted earth b/c CD is up when Kuribu is about to jump out of it is nonsensical).
But I mainly worry about positioning:
-do melee have proper access to flanks/rear?
-are derp casters (that love to stand behind the tank) in danger of getting hit by AoE?
-when dodging, moving as little as possible and going back to my old position once the effect is gone so the mob stays as still as it can

And cooldown usage: unless I know heavy damage is inc, I rotate and almost always have something up to reduce inc damage.

I know I could do tricks like: "deactivate def stance and use blood(?) blade to do 30% more damage", but imho that goes against my role as a tank.
I always thought these skills are for the times when you are off tank and no add is there for you to tank so you DPS a bit instead of AFKing.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Oh please.
[...]
Tanking is not hard. The following can make tanking hard:
Healers that instantly heal you the moment you drop 5% or spam HoTs on pull -> instant healer aggro.
DPS that go FULL DERP on one single mob and ignore the aggro indicator. Sure ofc they will rip threat off you if they tunnel on one mob in an AoE scenario.
Crap gear vs downscaled DPS. This one can truly be a pain, esp for a new player that doesn't have the luxury of crafting a quick HQ set.

Tanking by itself is probably the easiest role in FF.

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Sure. Tanking on your own is real easy. You're guaranteed to hold aggro.

Literal interpretation aside, when you run low-level dungeons as a new tank, you're almost guaranteed to run into one of the above listed "things that make tanking hard". Just ran a levelling roulette on an alt (as a lvl18 pgl), and the DRK in that instance had trouble holding aggro. Partially because they didn't spam Unleash enough, partially because the AST healer insisted on DPSing on a completely different target from the one the tank and DDs were on.

Of course, those first three dungeons can be done with a 4 DD party, no tanks and no healers. So on that front, it's "no biggie", and when I run them I don't always bother trying to grab stray mobs back if they're at half hp or less. But for someone who's still learning how to tank, it can be extremely stressful to "fail", which if it happens too often (or bad enough) can lead to them thinking "I'm not good enough to tank, I'd better quit" before even getting to level 25.

When I'm on my synched DRG and meet an unsynched (or barely synched, i.e. still not overgeared) tank in the first four dungeons... It takes approximately one HT plus two or three Impulse Drives to bring me from no aggro to orange triangle. On the target the tank is on. A bit more than that if the tank is in "experienced player" type of gear, i.e. pink or HQ level-appropriate gear. (Or the brand-new/dungeon lvl15 gear, if that's the best for the level.)

With "inconsiderate" DDs (or healers), it can be hell on a tank still trying to figure out what to do. The lowered dps output doesn't help. Impossible? No. More difficult? Yes, though experienced tanks probably won't notice that much of a difference (if any).

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I play all three roles, so I know what I am talking about. Tanking is by far the easiest role.

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I play all three as well if that is important to you.

How is tanking the easiest at entry?
They have atk combos mechanics similar to DPS.
If they want to hold aggro on trash they have timing mechanics similar to healers.

Even at entry lvl, at a minimum they are usually expected to:
* Have up to date gear.
* Pull
* Navigate the dungeon
* Set a decent pace for the run
* Play against actual players for threat.
* Switch targets depending on enmity.

Entry lvl healer expectations:
* Follow tank
* hit cure 1 occasionally

Entry lvl DPS expectations:
* follow tank
* Use what, 3 skills in a certain order

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

With "inconsiderate" DDs (or healers), it can be hell on a tank still trying to figure out what to do. The lowered dps output doesn't help. Impossible? No. More difficult? Yes, though experienced tanks probably won't notice that much of a difference (if any).

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I absolutely agree. Hey I did level a pally so I felt the pain associated with it. Now imagine leveling a WAR and not even having taunt. :X

I230 DDs can rip the threat of my I200 DRK easily if they tunnel too. Equipment plays a HUGE role in aggro generation. Imho too much, given how often you have really really shitty gear when leveling.

That bein said: I am absolutely merciless when I play AST. Cleric -> DOT on all mobs -> continued damage on the focus target with healing through cleric as needed.

In 75% of all cases: I tank all the mobs (including the focus target). Sorry, but that is unacceptable.
Tanks have to learn to use enough flash to counter 1 ticking DoT + healing aggro. That's not hard to do.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

continued damage on the focus target with healing through cleric as needed.

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Not sure if I'm just reading this wrong or not, but in case I am: You can turn off Cleric, heal, then turn it back on as turning it off doesn't have a CD. Healing in Cleric unnecessarily wastes healing potency and potentially a GCD (or more) you could've used on damaging spells. Sometimes Cleric can be finicky but it's always worth at least attempting to turn it off.

Also, on the topic of the skill floor for all the roles: Tanks > Heals > DPS.

The higher level you get, the more things change. Eventually it basically ends up as: Heals > Tanks = DPS.

That said, for the skill floor at least, all of them are easy and one is only slightly more difficult than the others. Things simply don't hit hard enough for it to matter if you hold aggro or not, so most of your actual responsibility is thrown out the window. It's only til... Haukke I guess? that things start hitting a little harder. So essentially everything is even unless you're actually bothering to do your job as a tank.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Not sure if I'm just reading this wrong or not, but in case I am: You can turn off Cleric, heal, then turn it back on as turning it off doesn't have a CD. Healing in Cleric unnecessarily wastes healing potency and potentially a GCD (or more) you could've used on damaging spells. Sometimes Cleric can be finicky but it's always worth at least attempting to turn it off.

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In low level, cleric doesn't do much.
Stance dancing only becomes interesting if a) damage gets heavy b) MND and INT are further apart (I'd guess lv 35+?).
For the most part it's easier to just toss an occasional heal with cleric on to the tank and continue DPSing.

Unless you have one of them weird ones that take damage like 3 40t trucks rolling back and forth over their bodies. Oo

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Originally Posted by Granyala

In low level, cleric doesn't do much.

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I assumed you were referring to max level content since you were talking about i200/i230 in the previous sentence, but if we're talking about low level then yeah Cleric won't neuter your heals as much. Though it is only 1 extra button, but *shrug*

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I assumed you were referring to max level content since you were talking about i200/i230 in the previous sentence, but if we're talking about low level then yeah Cleric won't neuter your heals as much. Though it is only 1 extra button, but *shrug*

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Yeah, not stance dancing in max level = gibbed party. :D

In low level, tank damage tends to be difficult to predict, so I usually heal when he drops below 66% for an additional safety margin if he takes spike damage.
No need do leave cleric for that.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I play all three as well if that is important to you.

How is tanking the easiest at entry?
*

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-All- the classes are easiest at entry.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

But the worst part of your argument is that "low level tanks have all just lost a significant chunk of their damage output". Low level tankswere probably not running around in level-appropriate gear, let alone level-appropriate STR gear, and any PLD who was running around in STR gear, without Shield Oath, was pissing off healers because he was too much work to heal. Besides the obvious part where this is just asking for a bad time, it was causing the healers to generate more hate because the PLD in question couldn't be bothered to gear properly.

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I'm not knocking people who wore pure vit/statted vit before the patch that changed AP for tanks (as a healer I almost never noticed or cared whether a tank went one way or the other in DF roulettes), but a lot of them seem to have a wildly inaccurate view of the HP difference relative to amounts healed by a single curative spell at lower levels, or indeed up to lvl 60 content (And maybe even at 60). Most tanks get a fair amount of their mitigation cooldowns early... and to be honest, as someone who has both tanked and healed at every point along the leveling process on various classes and through various patches, appropriate cooldown usage make far and away a bigger difference in being "too much work" to heal than statting vit.

More likely than not the people you might find hard to heal are either not wearing level-current gear, or accidentally wearing DoW gear without knowing the difference, or whatnot. The HP values don't differ enough to make HP outclass simple cooldown usage as a means of mitigation. For a healer to pull threat in a low level dungeon simply involved either the tank or the healer playing badly, or both. It has less to do with stat allocation than you think as long as gear level is current, at least until the most recent DF content or raids.

Low level PLDs do have legitimate difficulty pre-tank stance. At 15 running Sastasha on my PLD I could barely keep up with the healer and dps using my enmity combo (pre-RoH). My gear was about as good as you can get at 15, mostly stuff that actually drops in that dungeon + HQ level appropriate gear. People saying enmity issues are just being undergeared must think you are only allowed to run dungeons once you have out leveled them.

That being said, I don't think this issue is related to the "nerf" as PLDs appeared to have the same problem pre-patch. Personally, I like the change to focus on Vit, I've always felt that it was weird for Str to be the focused stat on tanks. Feels like something unintended.

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

That being said, I don't think this issue is related to the "nerf" as PLDs appeared to have the same problem pre-patch. Personally, I like the change to focus on Vit, I've always felt that it was weird for Str to be the focused stat on tanks. Feels like something unintended.

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This is the point a lot of people are trying to make
PLD always had these issues early game
The nerf didnt cause it; the issue already existed

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

People saying enmity issues are just being undergeared must think you are only allowed to run dungeons once you have out leveled them.

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Not at all.

You said yourself:
"At 15 running Sastasha on my PLD I could barely keep up with the healer and dps using my enmity combo (pre-RoH)."
^ if you were too undergeared there'd be no "barely" about it.

Threat is also boolean. You either have it or you don't. Having 50000% more threat than number 2 and having 5% more threat than #2 doesn't change much. It just allows new players to get away with not updating their gear and taking an eternity between skill activations.

There are positives to all this though.
* it is possible to keep threat
* by not having crazy levels of threat, you can see the threat system in action which will allow you to get a feel for and learn how it works.
* the above are all within an environment that doesn't really penalize your group if you struggle individually.

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

Low level PLDs do have legitimate difficulty pre-tank stance. At 15 running Sastasha on my PLD I could barely keep up with the healer and dps using my enmity combo (pre-RoH).

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Fast Blade > Riot Blade does more damage than Fast Blade > Savage Blade. Before Rage of Halone, and even for a while after, you should be Flashing away between 50% and 66% of your MP and then recovering it with Riot Blade.

"Sure if you want things to die super slow" is the reply I usually get to that, but the tank's job isn't to kill the things; it's to make sure the things don't kill everyone else, and the 175 potency per GCD a GLA can do with Fast Blade > Savage Blade is nothing compared to the potency per GCD lost by healers and DDs when the tank isn't doing his job.