tanks not using cooldowns?

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Originally Posted by rockint

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

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If all tanks followed your "strategy" for cooldown use, I'd kick a lot more tanks from dungeons. xD

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They had less HP; I also have a ton of experience. ;) Less HP means you had to learn to use your cooldowns more because you had much less soaking and padding to take damage. My tank gained almost 7k more health; which means I don't have to use cool-downs as much anymore.

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Except stuff hits harder now to compensate for our increased HP pools, making the change a wash overall.

This is especially evident in raids, so I guess I can't be too surprised that you didn't notice.

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Strength tanks were much more skilled then vitality tanks in almost every aspect; since they "HAD" to use cool-downs to survive. I feel like the vitality change lowered the skillcap for tanks.

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Back then all VIT did was inflate your HP pool beyond needed levels. You didn't need any more HP than you got from your Strength accessories because nothing really hit hard enough to warrant more. The HP are quite needed now, though.

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I've been tanking since 2004. When did you start tanking in games?

This is all pretty common sense stuff too...

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1995. You were probably in diapers when I started tanking. It's moot anyway since tanking differs somewhat from game to game. You don't tank anything harder than Expert dungeons in this game (you're quite adamant in other threads about not doing raids/EX primals), and that's why people take exception to you throwing your two gil around as if you know what you're talking about.

To be honest I wouldn't vent on pugs and df groups. I learn people are either playing sometimes on the hope of getting carried and this huge ego thinking their gods greatest gift. I've seen dps 123.....I've seen tanks pull 3 packs of mobs and use zero cd to survive or help the healer, I've seen healers not heal and poor tanks had to defend themselves. This happened to me at a Ravana EX last night. Good thing I was a WAR and self heals manage to hold off for a healthy which was late in the game. They're not call roulettes for no reason. You're taking a huge risk working people you don't know.

Wait a sec...that guy "tanking since 2004" has said in threads he does not raid or do primals in this game? Only dungeons? Ohgod...

http://i.imgur.com/1XCx6yw.png

In my opinion, in my play style, I absolutely need CDs for trash about 80% of the time. The reason is I do big pulls, lockout to lockout, and without the mitigation my oncoming damage is greater than incoming heals, even if heal after heal is cast. The exception is drk, at least for me. After I have the group, I pop blood price and dark arts abyssal drain spam, once blood price falls off I pop a CD. I live by a tanking standard that the only reason my healer should not DPS, is if they CHOOSE not too.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I'm only calling them out because they're calling everyone else bad, and they're rude especially when everyone else is telling them they're wrong. Otherwise it would have been a calm exchange of ideas. So if I'm banned, even though I didn't call anyone names (unless calling someone bad, or terrible qualifies as such), I hope they get penalized as well for doing the exact same thing.

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Nah, you won't get banned, I would have though, I can't stand such indignant incompetence.

Lately I noticed some of my FC friends, who are not main tank but tries to feel the role sometime, NEVER like NEVER use defensive CDs ans I found one of them in a P3 Sephirot training as DRK. They didn't even know what most CD actually do, now I so much expect normal DF tank to be like that.. BTW from there on I tell them the CDs they need to try cycle, those they should use on what time and WHY. I hope they'll be better at some point..

I agree with u with deliverance stance, i make sure i build up enough aggro so i.am sure i can stay in dps stance and supportt dps and use thrill of battle and convenlance how ever u write that and dfs. Ive met WAR only in deliverance and fucked up real bad as they could not hold aggro.

I can't do this anymore. After nonstop runs with tanks not using cooldowns i finally had one ask what cooldowns were. After I told them they then only proceeded to use sentinel and rampart on mobs. Thats it. Sometimes used them on boss, but ignored bulwark, clemency, and other paladin tools.

why are healers allowing this?

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

I can't do this anymore. After nonstop runs with tanks not using cooldowns i finally had one ask what cooldowns were. After I told them they then only proceeded to use sentinel and rampart on mobs. Thats it. Sometimes used them on boss, but ignored bulwark, clemency, and other paladin tools.

why are healers allowing this?

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or when you remind them what cooldowns are, they finally start using them, but all at once, when almost all of the mobs are dead. So many times, pull 10 mobs, pop all CD when only three are left...

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

or when you remind them what cooldowns are, they finally start using them, but all at once, when almost all of the mobs are dead. So many times, pull 10 mobs, pop all CD when only three are left...

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yup! The one I mentioned in OP did this. I feel like he did it out of spite though lol.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

or when you remind them what cooldowns are, they finally start using them, but all at once, when almost all of the mobs are dead. So many times, pull 10 mobs, pop all CD when only three are left...

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I've seen those so many times! Every single CD at the same freaking time, and right before that group is dead. Always.

As a tank, notably a PLD, who spams Duty Finder, I get all kinds of complaints from other players who either don't want to tank themselves, don't have a Lv50+ tank, or just have the need to complain about everything. Everyone is labeled bad to someone in some form.

I pop my CDs often. Heck, if the DPS are melting down mobs, I pull more. If I pull a LOT, I pop Hallowed Ground. Problem is, people would spend more time calling me stupid rather than using that time to dps. I'm not sure how it's labeled "stupid". Then, I get people who complain that my dps isn't contributing enough because I'm spamming Rage of Halone combo. If I have two BLMs who are burning quick or sprint ahead of me and start pulling and attacking before me, then yes, I will spam Halone in rotation of each mob rather than tossing in Goring Blade or Royal Authority.

At the end of the day, when you and two others sit in DF for a while waiting on a tank, just remember that even the decent or good tanks would rather do other things.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I've seen those so many times! Every single CD at the same freaking time, and right before that group is dead. Always.

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I once had a guy tell me on PLD I should macro Fight or Flight to my Rage of Halone. Just out of nowhere, I guess cause he noticed I was using it in different points of a combo or something? He even said something to the effect of he was still going to do that himself when I replied telling him he should unmacro that because he'd end up with times using it on the last hit of a pull, etc.

(I know, not a defensive cooldown, but the idea is the same, some people have no clue about cooldown use and even bind them to combo moves.)

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

As a tank, notably a PLD, who spams Duty Finder, I get all kinds of complaints from other players who either don't want to tank themselves, don't have a Lv50+ tank, or just have the need to complain about everything. Everyone is labeled bad to someone in some form.

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I really don't mean for you to take offense to this, but if you're get as many complaints as you claim in your post and across your other forum posts, perhaps you should be open to the idea that you may not be correct in the context of the situation. It's generally good to be open to advice, you never know how much it could help you improve.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

At the end of the day, when you and two others sit in DF for a while waiting on a tank, just remember that even the decent or good tanks would rather do other things.

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That cannot be farther from the truth if you actually enjoy tanking. A tank is neither a martyr nor a group's savior simply for existing; you're not doing other players a favor just for showing up. I urge players that have this mindset to hop off their pedestal, and go play a role they actually enjoy; this game does not need more tank divas.

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Originally Posted by Odett

A tank is neither a martyr nor a group's savior simply for existing; you're not doing other players a favor just for showing up. I urge players that have this mindset to hop off their pedestal, and go play a role they actually enjoy; this game does not need more tank divas.

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+1. Similar to what I said before, if a tank's bad, others should let him know they're as kickable as the rest.

What I notice as a new player (used to tanking in other MMO's), Due to not knowing the layout and how hard certain trash hits, I tend to use cooldowns to much. Which sometimes bites me in the ass.

When there's room to pull 2 packs, ofcourse I'll use some cooldown until the group is thinned out enough to survive easy and have something up for the next pull. Some more experience will make sure this will go smoother.

I don't know why tanks wouldn't use their cooldowns, they're made to be used.

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Originally Posted by rockint

I've had way too many deaths where I didn't watch a single heal get cast at all. I need my cooldowns for those idiotic periods, with a healer like that, my cooldowns are wasted during the time they actually know where their heal buttons are.

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Tanks like you die a lot more than you have to for a few reasons.

1 you aren't using Cd's effectively and so it's harder to heal/ catches us off guard (I should be able to hop in cleric stance after regen + e4e for at least 5 seconds)

2 We get super bored just babysitting you and get distracted because we aren't kept busy stance dancing (you're essentially asking us to sit there and hit one button every 5-20 seconds for 20-40 minutes.)

Basically your behavior is causing you to see the worse in healers causing a vicious cycle where we perform poorly or in untrustworthy ways (letting your hp drop so you actually use your so called "emergency" cooldowns) which only fosters your distrust of healers.

I think this conversation should really just be no matter what class you are playing, learn and use your full toolset. There is use with pretty much every skill, do your best and hope your party does the same. If you get advice listen most advice is there to help.

As for tanks (war main) it troubles me to hear from FC mates that I am the easiest tank to heal and that they dread warriors in DF. Please use CDs. ;-;

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

I think this conversation should really just be no matter what class you are playing, learn and use your full toolset. There is use with pretty much every skill, do your best and hope your party does the same. If you get advice listen most advice is there to help.

As for tanks (war main) it troubles me to hear from FC mates that I am the easiest tank to heal and that they dread warriors in DF. Please use CDs. ;-;

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basically this!

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Snip.

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You should level a healer sometime so you can see things from a non-MT perspective. It's not good to shoehorn yourself into one role without introspection in my opinion. It sounds like you may benefit from it.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

I think this conversation should really just be no matter what class you are playing, learn and use your full toolset. There is use with pretty much every skill, do your best and hope your party does the same. If you get advice listen most advice is there to help.

As for tanks (war main) it troubles me to hear from FC mates that I am the easiest tank to heal and that they dread warriors in DF. Please use CDs. ;-;

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I second this. Well said!

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Originally Posted by Odett

I really don't mean for you to take offense to this, but if you're get as many complaints as you claim in your post and across your other forum posts, perhaps you should be open to the idea that you may not be correct in the context of the situation. It's generally good to be open to advice, you never know how much it could help you improve.



That cannot be farther from the truth if you actually enjoy tanking. A tank is neither a martyr nor a group's savior simply for existing; you're not doing other players a favor just for showing up. I urge players that have this mindset to hop off their pedestal, and go play a role they actually enjoy; this game does not need more tank divas.

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On top of this, it doesn't seem to take that long to get a replacement anymore. So his threat really holds no water. But if he is getting that many complaints, I would rather shout to a FC mate or LS for a replacement. Or you know, run it myself. He is giving off that, I'm a super special rarity so take what you get and love it attitude.

I only use dark knight to DF lol and pray I get anti tower lmao the last area after the second boss is so good to just sprint and aoe everything

Using CD is a must or its death sentence mostly

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Originally Posted by Adire

Then you get to deal with bad DPS and can't compensate much for it anymore with the recent nerfs.

The only thing worse than a tank that doesn't pop cooldowns is 2 DPS who have no clue what they're doing.

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This is the main reason I play DPS over a Tank in FFXIV. Most content can be cleared with a terrible tank and often quickly. Bad dps will either slow content way down or make it impossible.

Tanks not using Cooldowns on trash annoy me as much as ranged dps not using LBs on trash. Very few bosses in dungeons do anything really dangerous to the tank but large groups of little critters is pretty deadly and the most common reason for wipes in my experience.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

I think this conversation should really just be no matter what class you are playing, learn and use your full toolset. There is use with pretty much every skill, do your best and hope your party does the same. If you get advice listen most advice is there to help.

As for tanks (war main) it troubles me to hear from FC mates that I am the easiest tank to heal and that they dread warriors in DF. Please use CDs. ;-;

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I get the same thing, been told it's like I have adamantium skin and only take lots of damage when I want to XD

Sadly though they mention PLD and DRK as being just as guilty, one tank going as far as to say you only use CD's when near death.

I actually had a scholar ask if they could just send Eos away and full time DPS since I was (apparently) mitigating/self-healing so well. Felt good, and obviously they didn't actually do it. What I gathered from that is some healers actually appreciate me using cooldowns. As a tank, I try to make my party's job, and by extension my job, as easy as possible. Besides, as countless people have said before me, why would you not use your cooldowns? Barring any need to save them for a TB/high damage phase.

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Originally Posted by jmanfrw

Basically your behavior is causing you to see the worse in healers causing a vicious cycle where we perform poorly or in untrustworthy ways (letting your hp drop so you actually use your so called "emergency" cooldowns) which only fosters your distrust of healers.

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OR, it's hard to catch up because the healer hasn't cast a single heal the entire pull because OMGIGOTTADPS. Healers like that are why so many tanks use their cooldowns REACTIVELY.

Tanks are NOT 100% self-sufficient on our cooldowns, we need to be healed. Even with that damage reduction from Vengeance, I'm still going to die if you don't do your job and actually cast heals on me.

Do your job, and make the groups survival your #1 prioirty, and you'll see more tanks use cooldowns so you can DPS rather than use cooldowns because of mechanics.

When something is going to hit me for 70% of my HP, sorry, my cooldowns are being saved for that hit, not your sad DPS.

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Originally Posted by rockint

OR, it's hard to catch up because the healer hasn't cast a single heal the entire pull because OMGIGOTTADPS. Healers like that are why so many tanks use their cooldowns REACTIVELY.

Tanks are NOT 100% self-sufficient on our cooldowns, we need to be healed. Even with that damage reduction from Vengeance, I'm still going to die if you don't do your job and actually cast heals on me.

Do your job, and make the groups survival your #1 prioirty, and you'll see more tanks use cooldowns so you can DPS rather than use cooldowns because of mechanics.

When something is going to hit me for 70% of my HP, sorry, my cooldowns are being saved for that hit, not your sad DPS.

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I think we're all on the same page here:

• Healers who don't drop Cleric Stance to heal when it is clearly needed are not performing adequately in their role.
• A healer's primary role is keeping everyone alive. If they can do that and have time to spare (say, if Regen/Medica II is keeping everyone topped off), they can jump into Cleric Stance and throw out some DoTs, and maybe Holy/Stone II/III, if they've got plenty of room.
• If a healer is DPSing while the group is dying, they are not performing adequately in their jobs.
• All the cooldowns in the world (except maybe Hallowed Ground) are not going to enable a healer to not heal the tank/group.
• Tanks who blow all their CDs during periods of low damage are not performing optimally.
• Big cooldowns should be saved for big damage.

I think the disconnect is in people's assumptions, and the things people aren't saying. I doubt rockint would advocate not using smaller cooldowns at the start of a pull; they just seem disgruntled at the attitude where healers expect to be able to DPS and get upset when they can't. Cooldowns make the healer's job easier, which is really why tanks exist at all (it focuses the incoming damage on one point to give them somewhere to focus their energy), but healers should still be healing primarily (unless they're a Scholar in pre-30 content. Then the fairy does literally everything).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

etc...

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The other thing that's often forgotten is something called "crowd control". For whatever reason DPS doesn't feel required to learn or use it. Tanks and Healers will get blamed all night long but often a simple root can fix a lot of these issues.

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Originally Posted by rockint

OR, it's hard to catch up because the healer hasn't cast a single heal the entire pull because OMGIGOTTADPS. Healers like that are why so many tanks use their cooldowns REACTIVELY.

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I'll say this that since I main Healer I rarely work with other healers because as a WHM I am main heals in raids.

But while my tank classes are still only getting the 40's (leveling in sync so they can share gear) I trust my healers and cycle my cool-downs as best I can (which could be better but...) and cannot remember a time when I ran into a healer not healing me. Healers generally, I repeat generally know how low a tank can get in a particular dungeon and if we don't we over-heal until we do. Yeah it's scary to see my hp drop but I know as a healer that we have all of our instant heals in mind [a lot are free :)]

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Originally Posted by rockint

Do your job, and make the groups survival your #1 prioirty, and you'll see more tanks use cooldowns so you can DPS rather than use cooldowns because of mechanics.

When something is going to hit me for 70% of my HP, sorry, my cooldowns are being saved for that hit, not your sad DPS.

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1 yes my job is to keep you alive, yours is to help me while the dps kill stuff

2 yeah... we know when that hit is coming too and that is when we save insta cast heals/ stoneskin if we can squeeze it in there, but guess what.. it wont eat 70% of your hp if you use a cd and it's ok to save one for that moment; but the cd for you abilities isn't 80% of the dungeon run time so in the meantime use them.

I'm done, now I've ranted but I don't feel like you'll listen to your teammates and play well and constructively. I suck at tank and I know that but I try which is more than you are doing atm.

not using 1/2 your abilities=not even trying

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Originally Posted by rockint

extreme

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you must have some pretty bad luck. In all my years playing this game have I never CONSTANTLY had healers who didn't heal and just kept dpsing. Maybe healers who turned on cleric at a bad time/accident (including myself at least once), but never as bad as you make it sound.

If a healer is dpsing try to make their lives easier by using a cooldown depending on pull size. Unless you want the run to go slower (especially with bad dps players). Why punish the healers who are doing your job just because of some post traumatic stress? Maybe besides the lvl 60 roulettes, healer dps is a rarity. I typically never see healers dps unless they are overgeared scholars for low lvl'd content.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

I've nonstop have been getting this on expert and lower level'd dungeons. I get that expert is a joke when it comes to damage, but if you aren't stance dancing then thats somewhat lazy.

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I think whining about other players performing their role adequately is a joke. Definitely rude and unhelpful.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I've been tanking since 2004. When did you start tanking in games?

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1991, when the multiplayer Battlezone-esc game Spectre was released for Macintosh computers. It was awesome. Needless to say multiplayer tanking has evolved substantially since then.

This thread isn't helpful or providing any insight on how to actually improve at tanking. It's just one long complaint about tanks and cooldowns. I can tell you from personal experience the number one reason why I'm not performing cooldowns when I should is because they haven't reset from a prior use. And a prior use could be the result of anything. Maybe an accident or from fatigue. More likely a desperation attempt when I see my party and myself on the verge of death where upon I may pop several cool downs as a last ditch effort. Or possibly just poor timing. Doubtful anyone but the tank knows for sure. Best to make light of it and try again.

S**t happens. You don't point fingers. You do try learn from it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

This thread isn't helpful

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without sounding rude but did you read through the thread? People gave very detailed and helpful answers as to why using cooldowns is beneficial and the best time to use said cooldowns. Starting with the second post of the thread. For new tanks or tanks looking to improve I don't see how the answers provided here aren't helpful.

second you are taking my OP far out of context. I said, and I quote, "I usually tell them to use them on hard hitting mobs". Usually when I see tanks completely ignoring the use of cooldowns I politely tell them and move on. If they don't decide to listen then I'll just have to adapt and move on unless they are overall hurting the party in more ways than one. Thats when I decide to take action. All I want for them is to be at least be aware of cooldowns. Which was the point of this thread since its far more common than it should be. Mitigation is a basic and standard for tanking throughout all games. Ignoring the use of skills you constantly unlock from 30-60 is very mind boggling to me and I wanted to see other tanks opinions on the matter.

funnily enough you only quoted my last sentence of my post and claim from that this thread is a whine topic while completely ignoring the example I gave. Thats really the only part of the OP where I put my personal opinion into this. Overall the majority of the post didn't intend to be whiny when I made it I don't think. Its just a legit issue. Especially considering that some healers (check the healer forums to see their reactions on the matter) get rather annoyed by this since they have to put more effort than need be.

Not trying to start drama haha. Hopefully the purpose of this topic is clear now.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

This thread isn't helpful or providing any insight on how to actually improve at tanking.

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It's okay to vent, complain, and seek validation, you know. There are no rules saying "EVERY THREAD IN THE TANKING FORUMS MUST BE HELPFUL AND A GUIDE TO HELP PEOPLE IMPROVE TANKING IN THE FIRST POST OR IT WILL BE DELETED." People are allowed to complain, and in this case, the complaint is a very valid one.

If someone is allowed to make new threads complaining about and trying to fix problems that don't exist for a job they've never even played, a post like this is certainly acceptable. If you don't like it, just move on.

And as OP has stated, there is a metric shittonne of excellent discussion on cooldowns and their usage in the 12 pages that currently comprise this thread. No, it's not all in the first post, but it doesn't have to be, either. Might be more condensed if it was, but every post here is catalogued by Google bots, so if someone searches for FFXIV tank cooldowns, this thread is very likely to come up.

tl;dr: get off your high horse.

If every thread in the tanking forum needed to be helpful then we'd have like 5 threads here ever.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

The other thing that's often forgotten is something called "crowd control". For whatever reason DPS doesn't feel required to learn or use it. Tanks and Healers will get blamed all night long but often a simple root can fix a lot of these issues.

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The only crowd control that's worth even mentioning on this topic are stuns. The only case I can remotely think of where they're not being used appropriately are ninjas that go in viper stance for trash pulls. Which they shouldn't. But even that's a relatively minor issue. Holy is the best significant crowd control that should be used in dungeons, and even that has a time that it shouldn't be used (blood price). Sleep, bind and non-killshot knockback moves are counterproductive to killing mobs appropriately and should be avoided except in dire circumstances.