Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh god.

Can't we just agree that a healer that doesn't dps is average while a healer that does DPS and heal is good? >.<

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Never! Wouldn't get 200+ page popcorn threads otherwise. :P

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh god.

Can't we just agree that a healer that doesn't dps is average while a healer that does DPS and heal is good? >.<

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No, a healer that doesn't DPS at all is bad unless there's a very good reason for it (new to or very undergeared for the run. Sometimes in 8-man content healers will agree that one will solo-heal while the other goes all out on DPS unless something goes wrong). There is very little content in the game that requires you to constantly heal, so if you're not dpsing because you can't find the time between heals, you're probably doing something wrong (which means you're bad), and if you're got plenty of time between heals and aren't DPSing, you're lazy (which also makes you bad).

An 'average' healer would be one that just dots whatever the tank is hitting and goes back to healing/waiting to heal. A 'good' healer is one who contributes meaningfully to DPS without actually letting anyone die.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Do you mind DPS who don't bother to dodge any not-immediately-lethal AOEs and refuse to use self-healing? I mean, worrying about HP pools and damage taken isn't *THEIR* responsibility. Doing those things exist just to help with solo MSQ fights!

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Well the MSQ kinda tells people they don't need to since there is usually an npc healing you most of the time. And to answer your question I don't mind them as long as they dodge the ones that would kill them instantly.

And just to clear things up I never said that I don't want healers to do damage or that I think they shouldn't I'm just saying I do not mind if they don't for whatever reason they have..

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh god.

Can't we just agree that a healer that doesn't dps is average while a healer that does DPS and heal is good? >.<

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Just curious, what would you consider a SCH who puts /follow on the tank and goes afk in low level dungeons to be? They'd be doing their job. Are they average?

As a someone who does dps as a healer, it really depends on the situation(s) you're in.

-Party isn't taking too much damage? DPS DPS DPS when you see the window.
-Party is taking a lot of damage? Less focus on DPsing and keeping people's HP up as high as possible. (Good example is A8. All that party AoE damage...)

There's different situations for each person who heals. I generally like to add a bit of DPS when no one is taking too much damage. My main priority is keeping the party's vitality up as high as possible. DPSing is second to me, but I do throw it when I feel comfortable the tank and/or DPS isn't gonna die.

I'd rather not spend 2.6k MP on a dead DPS or Tank, if I tunnel vision with DPSing. Just my opinion :p

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Just curious, what would you consider a SCH who puts /follow on the tank and goes afk in low level dungeons to be? They'd be doing their job. Are they average?

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They are being lazy.

Of topic however I love how people are trying to make it seem like I said something that I didnt lol.

Do I think healers should DPS? Yes whenever they get the chance.

Do I think that a healer who doesn't dps is garbage? No, because there could be reasons why they arent dps. They good be new, learning the class, ect...

Do I think that if you've reached expert roulette and still aren't dpsing you're an average healer? No. You should of learned by then how and when to dps.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I love how people are trying to make it seem like I said something that I didnt lol.

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Do I think that if you've reached expert roulette and still aren't dpsing you're an average healer? No. You should of learned by then how and when to dps.

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Contradicts your last post.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh god.

Can't we just agree that a healer that doesn't dps is average while a healer that does DPS and heal is good? >.<

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Probably not, because people want to make it a polarizing issue. Instead of a spectrum of excellent, good, average, poor, bad, or what have you; people will stick with simply good/bad. I believe it's largely because it's easier to villify other players that way.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Contradicts your last post.

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Let me clear up my opinion then.

If you are at 60, geared to the level where you are able to do expert roulette and still not dpsing, you are indeed bad at the class.

If however you are learning the class, still new to the game or new to a certain instance, I do not feel it fair to categorize them as bad at the class.

Maybe I worded it horribly IDK.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Let me clear up my opinion then.

If you are at 60, geared to the level where you are able to do expert roulette and still not dpsing, you are indeed bad at the class.

If however you are learning the class, still new to the game or new to a certain instance, I do not feel it fair to categorize them as bad at the class.

Maybe I worded it horribly IDK.

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This I can agree with.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Just curious, what would you consider a SCH who puts /follow on the tank and goes afk in low level dungeons to be? They'd be doing their job. Are they average?

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I call that kickbait. I'm not here to drag people through a dungeon while they watch Netflix!

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I call that kickbait. I'm not here to drag people through a dungeon while they watch Netflix!

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Yup same.
I like SCH, I'm not going to have any remorse on lame SCHs.

Until SE stops babying the bads and starts making damage output enough to have me healing 90% of the time, I'm gonna continue cleric stancing the entirety of Expert Roulette on Scholar.

Frankly it's embarrassing that these two dungeons are as difficult as the lowest level dungeons in the game as far as required healing is concerned.

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Originally Posted by sorahu

I see and I raise the pot as well, it is time for tanks and dps to step our game up and have more of elitist mindset, meaning do whatever we need to do to play all our jobs to the fullest.

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Pre-3.2 this was the whole reason for STR tanks. Sure there were shitty tanks who did it just because it was the "norm", but a good STR tank made whatever you were running so much easier. Then you also had the fact that sitting in front of the boss just being a turtle and holding threat was boring as hell and it was fun to see just how high you could get your DPS while still maintaining proper mitigation and threat.

A while back someone told me that I was basically saying that dps themselves doing extra dps is optional. Healers doing dps is optional, tanks doing high amounts of dps is optional. Let me just prove my point. You have a dungeon that requires 100 damage per second to clear it, minimum. Yet everyone entering the dungeon is easily capable of doing 600 damage per second. That extra 500 dps is absolutely wonderful to have but by no means required for a clear and therefore optional. Healer dps is by no means required for clearing 99% of content and is therefore optional. To say someone is bad for playing their class to the standards the game allows even if they are the minimum is stupid. If they are below the minimum they are bad. Anything meeting the minimum is acceptable. But people will never agree to this because of elitism and the fact that I am a filthy casual.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

A while back someone told me that I was basically saying that dps themselves doing extra dps is optional. Healers doing dps is optional, tanks doing high amounts of dps is optional. Let me just prove my point. You have a dungeon that requires 100 damage per second to clear it, minimum. Yet everyone entering the dungeon is easily capable of doing 600 damage per second. That extra 500 dps is absolutely wonderful to have but by no means required for a clear and therefore optional. Healer dps is by no means required for clearing 99% of content and is therefore optional. To say someone is bad for playing their class to the standards the game allows even if they are the minimum is stupid. If they are below the minimum they are bad. Anything meeting the minimum is acceptable. But people will never agree to this because of elitism and the fact that I am a filthy casual.

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So... your point is that dps doing extra dps is optional?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So... your point is that dps doing extra dps is optional?

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My point is that if dps classes doing extra dps is optional it should go without saying that healers dpsing is optional.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

My point is that if dps classes doing extra dps is optional it should go without saying that healers dpsing is optional.

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But it isn't optional. It's expected a dps do extra dps, if you're terrible you're likely to get kicked.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

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In a dungeon where a single cure/med 2 is enough to keep people healthy for a quarter of the fight, doing nothing but healing is a massive waste of time and an under utilisation of resources.

I WHM'ed an LCoA HM and the only gcds I spent healing were regens. That's literally it. I spent the rest of the dungeon dealing as much damage as I could, I even oom'd twice. This is pure speculation but I'd imagine that made the run at least 30% faster than it would have been with me sitting there with my thumb up my arse throwing one cure every 30 seconds.

I guess no one knows what the word optional means.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So... your point is that dps doing extra dps is optional?

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No, he's saying that we shouldn't be expecting anyone to do anything outside of the base function of their job. This is all well and good, but definitely not the ideal way to play and not what the Devs had in mind when they designed all of the jobs.

People are only "bad" if they have the ability to do something but willingly choose to do only the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I guess no one knows what the word optional means.

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DPS auto-attacking will get the job done.

Yeah, I don't think so. Only auto-attacking is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I guess no one knows what the word optional means.

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Oh we know what it means. It's just that optionally choosing to do nothing but healing in a situation where you don't need to heal is an utter waste of potential.

I can literally go on Sch, get Selene out and have her solo heal the entire thing. If I did that, if I let the fairy do everything, but I OPTIONALLY chose to not DPS, what would you say to that?

I don't know about you guys, but the norm for me has always been to stick my hands in my pockets and watch three other people play the game without my input. I mean, if you don't need the heals, I'm fine just watching. If you really need healing though, please say something with raid warning noises, or I might not pull my head out of my phone in time to cast a regen or whatever.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Oh we know what it means. It's just that optionally choosing to do nothing but healing in a situation where you don't need to heal is an utter waste of potential.

I can literally go on Sch, get Selene out and have her solo heal the entire thing. If I did that, if I let the fairy do everything, but I OPTIONALLY chose to not DPS, what would you say to that?

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I've actually been asked this very question before and I'll say now what I said then. As long as your fairy doesn't let us die I really don't care. I would t care if your fairy let us die either as long as they could raise us but of course they can't do that.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I've actually been asked this very question before and I'll say now what I said then. As long as your fairy doesn't let us die I really don't care. I would t care if your fairy let us die either as long as they could raise us but of course they can't do that.

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That's bullshit and you know it. You'd think I was lazy, getting carried, not pulling my weight.

Or are you saying that as long as the boss dies, and I'm only autoattacking , you wouldn't care either?

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I've actually been asked this very question before and I'll say now what I said then. As long as your fairy doesn't let us die I really don't care. I would t care if your fairy let us die either as long as they could raise us but of course they can't do that.

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We get it. You're a bad healer, and you condone others being bad healers. Thanks for your contribution to the topic.

IMO, Heal when you should. Dps when/if you can.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

We get it. You're a bad healer, and you condone others being bad healers. Thanks for your contribution to the topic.

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Yeah cause healers not dpsing makes them bad. I dps in all casual content out of boredom not needing to heal all the time so don't think I'm bad just because I think a certain way is acceptable. I'm also pretty sure if I was that bad I wouldn't have been able to clear Seph EX as a WHM. Oh you know what? I didn't dps in the run I cleared in because I wasn't comfortable with the fight and when to time heals. If I had chosen to dps instead of focusing on keeping people alive we would have wiped even more. Please do go on, this is vastly entertaining.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

That's bullshit and you know it. You'd think I was lazy, getting carried, not pulling my weight.

Or are you saying that as long as the boss dies, and I'm only autoattacking , you wouldn't care either?

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Some days I really don't care. If auto attacks could get the job done I'm fine with it. It depends on my mood at the time. Yes I'm serious.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

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You don't need to heal for pretty much half of phase 3, as soon as the might and magic buffs are on everyone is practically immortal. You can figure this out the first time you're in there, if, in future runs you're choosing to not dps in that phase I would personally call you out on it. You're actually more likely to cause a wipe in that instance since that phase is a huge dps check.

Do go on.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

You don't need to heal for pretty much half of phase 3, as soon as the might and magic buffs are on everyone is practically immortal. You can figure this out the first time you're in there, if, in future runs you're choosing to not dps in that phase I would personally call you out on it. You're actually more likely to cause a wipe in that instance since that phase is a huge dps check.

Do go on.

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And since I've cleared I have started dpsing in phase 3 during might and magic. Before clear I wasn't comfortable with it and I didn't know if any outgoing damage was coming out during might and magic and was trying to conserve mana. And I might clarify we cleared proving me dpsing would have been optional anyway.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Hey, glad we agree on something! Real talk you have a minority opinion. Sometimes that happens you know? The community is pretty decided on this one. You can jump up and down and tell people that your opinion is right, just don't get mad or act surprised when people disagree with you. Especially when you say stuff like this.

So you know, carry on, fight the power and all that.

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Eh the forums largely represent a very vocal elitist minority from what I've gathered and been told. Most people I encounter in game don't care if a healer does dps or not as long as they keep everyone alive. Edit cause post limit for the day.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

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Any healer worth their salt has one eye on their party list and the other on mechanics, so if it took you until your clear to figure out that no damage was taken, then, uhh...

Yes, it was optional in that clear but what of future runs? Not everyone is perfect, one dps slips up in the first phase 3 rotation and RIPs, you wipe to a 1% enrage. Guess where that 1% could have come from?

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Yeah cause healers not dpsing makes them bad.

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Hey, glad we agree on something! Real talk you have a minority opinion. Sometimes that happens you know? The community is pretty decided on this one. You can jump up and down and tell people that your opinion is right, just don't get mad or act surprised when people disagree with you. Especially when you say stuff like this.

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If auto attacks could get the job done I'm fine with it.

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So you know, carry on, fight the power and all that.

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Please do go on, this is vastly entertaining.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I guess no one knows what the word optional means.

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Maybe you do not know that what you deem as optional is not optional to begin with. You've defended bad play in countless threads, so it comes as no surprise to me. Don't make me quote that infamous post of yours in which you admitted to having been spamming a single button on your DRG and excused it as "it was a 24-man run lulz".

It's basically been said but yes, Healers attacking are considered normal and even encouraged. I don't remember the exact post but didn't one of the higher ups basically show that Healers are expected to contribute to the action? Even your training dummy will fail you if you do nothing but heal. However on the note of SCH and just pulling a fairy out and going AFK, I love getting those kinds cus a quick inquiry to my FC and I know I have a quick replacement for them, even sweeter when I feel or know they are only there for the daily and kick em right before the final boss. Sure, I'll carry ya to the top but I am also gonna chuck ya down the cliff once we reach it.

Not DPSing as a healer doesn't make you bad. You're just not living up to your full potential. I think corbin is being hard on seph because there's so much more he could do, and just wants him(allong with all healers) to be all they can be.
Its a simple case of constructive criticism interpreted the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

It's basically been said but yes, Healers attacking are considered normal and even encouraged. I don't remember the exact post but didn't one of the higher ups basically show that Healers are expected to contribute to the action? Even your training dummy will fail you if you do nothing but heal. However on the note of SCH and just pulling a fairy out and going AFK, I love getting those kinds cus a quick inquiry to my FC and I know I have a quick replacement for them, even sweeter when I feel or know they are only there for the daily and kick em right before the final boss. Sure, I'll carry ya to the top but I am also gonna chuck ya down the cliff once we reach it.

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Agreed. With all the damage reduction spells and hots you can throw and forget and switch to DPS. Especially with all the changes to AST.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Yes, it was optional in that clear but what of future runs? Not everyone is perfect, one dps slips up in the first phase 3 rotation and RIPs, you wipe to a 1% enrage.

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This type of thinking is really important. Healers are provided with DPS not only because it helps them with solo. WHM is an iconic class to FF series, they are known for their burst healing and destructive power (Holy). WHM get Aero3, Assize and Holy, 3 AoE abilities because that's who they are. DPS is optional for healers and SE will never include healer DPS check onto any content. But if healers are insecure to DPS or don't want to do it. Imagine other jobs. As an example; Blm don't use flare because it cost all MP. It turns out, only few people actually play their character to fullest. My only worry is that people still don't understand the importance of 1% wipe situation and how effective it's to contribution everything you have at the moment.

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Originally Posted by nexas506

Not DPSing as a healer doesn't make you bad. You're just not living up to your full potential. I think corbin is being hard on seph because there's so much more he could do, and just wants him(allong with all healers) to be all they can be.
Its a simple case of constructive criticism interpreted the wrong way.

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Yeah, well, it doesn't make you a bad healer, but not good player. There is not a single argument that can counter that fact. It's just funny how others try and defend their position. Trying to convince as many people to believe that they are right and we are wrong. Same goes to real life actually.. I personally work hard everyday, sometimes I only sleep for 4 hrs a day and some of my work mates criticize me because I do better? This doesn't make sense..

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Eh the forums largely represent a very vocal elitist minority from what I've gathered and been told. Most people I encounter in game don't care if a healer does dps or not as long as they keep everyone alive. Edit cause post limit for the day.

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Please. I don't ever take the official forums into account because it's place full of crazy, and constantly the butt of every joke. It's gotten to the point that being an "OF poster" is considered an insult in my FC. Anyway, here's an experiment that you can try at home. Go to literally any other xiv hub. Reddit, bluegartr forums, guildwork, anywhere where semi serious discussion takes place. Present your argument there and get back to me.