3.2 Astrologian Changes

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

I think they have given up on healing parity and from their comments during the stream they want to give AST its own niche with Card buffs (which is good and should have been a day one priority!). But if they just improve the cards then they have to be very careful about AST vs WHM balance.

They designed themselves in a corner with their initial AST concept and subsequent 3.07 buffs but that's no secret. I don't think it's going to be well-balanced before 4.0 either.

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This is why I really like the idea of Noct Sect being more about buffs. If you just buff the cards, you'll damage the WHM vs. AST balance, but if you buff the cards while in Noct Sect ONLY you'll give ASTs the ability to be a viable SCH replacement (with less healing/mitigation throughput possibly but if tuned right, maybe a bigger increase to party DPS? More risk, more reward?), without hurting how the job functions in Diurnal.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

Well yeah, you're probably right.

From today's patch notes reading according to that guy on reddit (take that with a grain of salt, I wasn't watching myself so that's second hand info):


He's of course not wrong and I appreciate the honesty but that's disappointing nonetheless when the dev team basically admits they have absolutely no idea how to balance something.

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It kinda sucks he admits that openly. Between the AST tweaks given in this patch and the VIT/STR changes for tanks, I've sadly lost every confidence in Yoshi-P and his dev team to balance the game properly --; I hope that changes over time - all they're doing right now is giving AST more raw power without actually changing their healing identity. And with Yoshi's comments above, he and his team even compares Noct AST to SCH and his comments is true - it's hard to argue against a pet that basically says "heal for 4,000 potency over the course of a minute at 0 MP and GCD consumption from my master" and buffing Noct AST to hit those kinda values would just be silly and most likely game breaking.

I guess it's pretty indicative too considering when this forum last looked at A4S clear rates, I believe there was literally only a single clear with a Noct AST according to FFLogs.

That is really upsetting to be honest, these bandaid fixes aren't enough.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It kinda sucks he admits that openly. Between the AST tweaks given in this patch and the VIT/STR changes for tanks, I've sadly lost every confidence in Yoshi-P and his dev team to balance the game properly --; I hope that changes over time - all they're doing right now is giving AST more raw power without actually changing their healing identity. And with Yoshi's comments above, he and his team even compares Noct AST to SCH and his comments is true - it's hard to argue against a pet that basically says "heal for 4,000 potency over the course of a minute at 0 MP and GCD consumption from my master" and buffing Noct AST to hit those kinda values would just be silly and most likely game breaking.

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Honestly, between that and the instant PvP nerf without letting The Feast speak for itself, I have no clue what they are thinking anymore. Like they are afraid of making a second healer on the levels of SCH, but at the same time they want to keep SCH on that level anyway, since they aren't actively trying to reduce the power of a SCH as it stands. And there have been ample of very valid suggestions without utterly breaking the balance.

Well the new jobs were marred the moment they decide to make it play like another current job. AST specifically didn't really stand on it's own because of the half-thought Sect system. The best option is to really sit down and figure out how they want AST to play as a healer instead of you can play like a SCH or like a WHM. That's just bad game designing. At this point though I'm not sure if Sect swapping in combat would help or not but it would be an improvement.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Honestly, between that and the instant PvP nerf without letting The Feast speak for itself, I have no clue what they are thinking anymore. Like they are afraid of making a second healer on the levels of SCH, but at the same time they want to keep SCH on that level anyway, since they aren't actively trying to reduce the power of a SCH as it stands. And there have been ample of very valid suggestions without utterly breaking the balance.

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I can understand why they don't want to bump Noct AST to match SCHs potential. All three healers have beaten A4S so they're all capable, just SCHs ability is leaps and bounds ahead. I imagine they'll tone it back come 4.0 and instead of making AST "OP" they're also probably waiting to re-tune it come 4.0 as well. At least if they don't make AST "OP" they only have to scale back one job instead of two.

I'm expecting another Fairy potency nerf down to the 145-175 range in the future, to be honest and probably less exhilarating tools come expansion to try to bring SCH back into line.

A thought I just had while on the subway is that I feel they just need to take out the fact AST has two healing paradigms and instead focus on the one thing unique to AST - their cards. Turn Diurnal and Noct Sect into card effecting sects (ie, Diurnal makes Draw 20s and Nocturnal increases card potency by 5%) and then pick a healing kit to convert everything too (I'm leaning towards Diurnal since it's the more powerful kit at this time). This would make it easier to balance AST since you can't really make Noct more powerful without making Dirunal exceedingly more powerful in the process (kinda similar with how they had issues balancing SMN in 2.0 because SCH was just that potent as a healer).

These changes are fantastic.

Making me reconsider my main.

It seems they gave ASTs a toolkit that specializes in more emergency situations, on top of the support abilities.

(Optional Spear +) LA + LS+ CO is basically your raid saver. Pushing out massive heals and recovering large amounts of MP in a pinch

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It kinda sucks he admits that openly. Between the AST tweaks given in this patch and the VIT/STR changes for tanks, I've sadly lost every confidence in Yoshi-P and his dev team to balance the game properly --; I hope that changes over time - all they're doing right now is giving AST more raw power without actually changing their healing identity. And with Yoshi's comments above, he and his team even compares Noct AST to SCH and his comments is true - it's hard to argue against a pet that basically says "heal for 4,000 potency over the course of a minute at 0 MP and GCD consumption from my master" and buffing Noct AST to hit those kinda values would just be silly and most likely game breaking.

I guess it's pretty indicative too considering when this forum last looked at A4S clear rates, I believe there was literally only a single clear with a Noct AST according to FFLogs.

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Astrologian is a class, Nocturnal is a skill that the class has access to. Astrologian needs to be balanced. A Noct Astro is not an actual thing. You are speaking of it as if it's it's own thing that needs separately balanced and equally as viable, which simply isn't true. Astro is a great main healer. The next healer added should probably be a superior off healer. Astro doesn't need to be both.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Astrologian is a class, Nocturnal is a skill that the class has access to. Astrologian needs to be balanced. A Noct Astro is not an actual thing. You are speaking of it as if it's it's own thing that needs separately balanced and equally as viable, which simply isn't true. Astro is a great main healer. The next healer added should probably be a superior off healer. Astro doesn't need to be both.

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We've had this discussion in the past, you're not going to convince me of this while the game basically tells you Astrologian has two unique and different healing paradigms and thus fundamentally different from most "situational skills" that you've argued in the past.

I'm agreeing to disagree again.

Though I'm not even sure why you think I'm saying they need to buff Noct in that post. I'm just saying that I've lost confidence in Yoshi-P and his dev team's ability to balance the game because of both the VIT/STR changes on tanks and the AST tweaks given to their MP management. I only mentioned Noct in this post because of the translated comment Yoshi-P said in the post I was replying to and adding my own two cents about it as it seems like my thought process behind Nocturnal matches his.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Astrologian is a class, Nocturnal is a skill that the class has access to. Astrologian needs to be balanced. A Noct Astro is not an actual thing. You are speaking of it as if it's it's own thing that needs separately balanced and equally as viable, which simply isn't true. Astro is a great main healer. The next healer added should probably be a superior off healer. Astro doesn't need to be both.

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Actually i disagree with you here. The difference is playstyle and functional role in a raid group between a Diurnal Sect Astrologian and a Nocturnal Sect Astrologian is more a difference in kind than a difference in degree. Nocturnal and Diurnal have to be balanced separately and to such an extent that they both function in their relative healing niches. If they arent, then there is little to no point in the class possessing the sect that can not function properly. Balance has to be done for both to function equally if both sects are being kept in game.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Astrologian is a class, Nocturnal is a skill that the class has access to. Astrologian needs to be balanced. A Noct Astro is not an actual thing. You are speaking of it as if it's it's own thing that needs separately balanced and equally as viable, which simply isn't true. Astro is a great main healer. The next healer added should probably be a superior off healer. Astro doesn't need to be both.

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I have to disagree too. Noct Astro is a thing simple because of design of the Sect system. You have to make a conscious choice before the encounter on how you want to play which, as I said previously, is a bad game design. I think Ghishlain is also on the right path with having Sect tied to our card system rather than a healing tool box.

Yeah, I said a long time ago that Diurnal should be the healing sect and Nocturnal should be a buffing sect - i.e. more potent heals in Diurnal, normal card buffs and normal heals in Nocturnal and more potent/faster card buffs. This is not a new idea that you just suddenly stumbled upon.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Yeah, I said a long time ago that Diurnal should be the healing sect and Nocturnal should be a buffing sect - i.e. more potent heals in Diurnal, normal card buffs and normal heals in Nocturnal and more potent/faster card buffs. This is not a new idea that you just suddenly stumbled upon.

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If you're referring to Dyvid's comment about my idea regarding Sects, you didn't quite comprehend what I was suggesting (though my suggestion is definitely a variation to the oft commonly suggested Diurnal = Heals | Nocturnal = Buffs suggestion)

Instead of having one Sect as a healer Sect and another as a Buff Sect, we focus purely on the card aspect. Homogenize the AST healing kit so it has one easy to balance healer kit and instead have both Sects affect your Cards.

For example, Diurnal Sect can reduce the recast of Draw down to 20s while Nocturnal Sect increases a card's power by 5%. There are probably myriad amount of ways you can adjust Shuffle, Royal Road, Draw, Spread, and all the card effects between these two Sects.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

For example, Diurnal Sect can reduce the recast of Draw down to 20s while Nocturnal Sect increases a card's power by 5%. There are probably myriad amount of ways you can adjust Shuffle, Royal Road, Draw, Spread, and all the card effects between these two Sects.

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Well, even if nocturnal sect would have "buffed cards", it doesn't really solve the more fundamental issues Nocturnal Sect has - Which we've discussed in greater detail in a different topic

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, even if nocturnal sect would have "buffed cards", it doesn't really solve the more fundamental issues Nocturnal Sect has - Which we've discussed in greater detail in a different topic

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I guess I need to add some clarity since I don't think people quite understand the point I'm trying to make.

Currently, AST has two healing paradigms and one card paradigm.

My suggestion was to shift that so AST has a single healing paradigm (mostly likely Diurnal's healing kit since it's the more powerful of the two) and then have Sects affect the card aspect of the job.

This would indirectly solve the "Nocturnal Balance issue" because Nocturnal Healing doesn't exist anymore. Instead AST has a single healer kit that is much easier to balance against other healers and then Noct and Diurnal now represent different buffing paradigms of S-E's discretion. One may be more suitable than the other based around the player's skill, the content they are participating in, and the composition of the existing group. It would also play on AST's unique buffing aspect and, if designed well enough, encourage the player to think about which Sect they want to use.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, even if nocturnal sect would have "buffed cards", it doesn't really solve the more fundamental issues Nocturnal Sect has - Which we've discussed in greater detail in a different topic

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I've noticed Ghislain likes to try to veer the conversation to other topics then what you are talking about if she feels her posts are not making sense to your points. Nocturnal stance will never be on par with the scholar side of the healing setup until it can somehow provide a long term heal that can just be a fire and forget mechanic while the astro is casting offensively. I have alwas been a fan of mimicing the disc priest in wow and letting astro spells have a % of damage dealt smart heal your group as you deal damage.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

I've noticed Ghislain likes to try to veer the conversation to other topics then what you are talking about if she feels her posts are not making sense to your points.

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Nice passive aggressive quip. You know you could try to refute me directly next time if you dislike my opinion (or dislike me in general, it seems).

It's funny you should make a comment like that to Lyrica this when Lyric wall of texted you... twice, about how illogical your A3S argument was and I mimic her sentiments entirely in that train of thought.

We could re-open that discussion if you like but that would just de-rail the thread and I already know it would be a fruitless endeavor anyway. You don't understand nor accept why your logic is flawed and would continue to demand others to refute you first and then state their argument is invalid and irrelevant to the current discussion.

[EDIT]

Oh, and before you think I'm ignoring the rest of your post.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Nocturnal stance will never be on par with the scholar side of the healing setup until it can somehow provide a long term heal that can just be a fire and forget mechanic while the astro is casting offensively. I have alwas been a fan of mimicing the disc priest in wow and letting astro spells have a % of damage dealt smart heal your group as you deal damage.

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I have no problem with this comment, nor do I know enough about current Discipline talents in WoW to make a reply to this. It's just another nice thought that perhaps S-E can consider while trying to figure out what the heck they want to do with Nocturnal (though it's not assuring, based on the translated comment from Reddit earlier in the thread).

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Originally Posted by Galdous

I've noticed Ghislain likes to try to veer the conversation to other topics then what you are talking about if she feels her posts are not making sense to your points. Nocturnal stance will never be on par with the scholar side of the healing setup until it can somehow provide a long term heal that can just be a fire and forget mechanic while the astro is casting offensively. I have alwas been a fan of mimicing the disc priest in wow and letting astro spells have a % of damage dealt smart heal your group as you deal damage.

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Well SE's grand scheme for AST was a main healer stance and backup healer stance. If this is how they want it then it needs to be tweeked to help the main healer as well as help long term dps of the group. SE was incorrect assuming giving a bubble would fill this role but it doesn't. SCH was designed with backup healer in mind. It's has damage mitigation which helps main healer, fairy that buffs and assist heal less targets, and long term dps output via DoTs and Mana. Noct can do this but needs work.

I'm not really a fan of locking ASTs into Diurnal...if I wanted to play a WHM, I'd play a WHM. If they're just going to give up any pretense of, "AST can be a WHM OR a SCH!" then I'd really rather they redesign the job completely, from the ground up. A channel healer, a life leech healer, a predominantly HoT-based healer...something unique.

Since that's unlikely to happen, SE needs to finish what they started and give Astrologian's an actual CHOICE about the type of healer they want to play - recovery healer or mitigation.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to make Diurnal and Nocturnal so balanced that no one can tell by calculations wich one is better. This will never happen. They just need to buff Nocturnal bonus healing (since MP is not a problem anymore with freaking 24/29 seconds of MP refresh each 2 minutes) and let people choose.

DFing A8 (M4) for my spring all week has been like
Rez > Rez > Rez > Rez > Rez > Rez. All while maintaining Aspected Benefic/helios and spamming heals without ever hurting for MP. In fact I throw Ewers on my co healer more often than myself. The only way we eventually die is enrage timer or not enough people standing to split damage.

AST was so weak when it came out and I decided to main it. I loved it, but I don't think any job has received so many buffs, and now it feels pretty OP.

I dearly hope you're exaggerating, because while the LA buff is strong and arguably questionable, the difference is less than a single Ascend. If you're using Ewer on yourself with that, fair enough.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

I dearly hope you're exaggerating, because while the LA buff is strong and arguably questionable, the difference is less than a single Ascend. If you're using Ewer on yourself with that, fair enough.

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It's not. 24 seconds of refresh with 80 potency means 7 tics, so 560 potency refresh, not taking into consideration Ewers that now replenish more MP than Assize, the 150 seconds CO that adds one more tic to LA refresh and Max-Ethers that are pretty cheap now (at least NQ). I do have AST leveled but it's not my main, but it's my friend's main and he said MP is rarely a problem even on Nocturnal. Right now AST have the second best MP management on the game between healers.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

I dearly hope you're exaggerating, because while the LA buff is strong and arguably questionable, the difference is less than a single Ascend. If you're using Ewer on yourself with that, fair enough.

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A friend of mine has reported similar results while doing Sephirot EX and I trust his opinion so, no, I don't think this is an exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

It's not. 24 seconds of refresh with 80 potency means 7 tics, so 560 potency refresh, not taking into consideration Ewers that now replenish more MP than Assize, the 150 seconds CO that adds one more tic to LA refresh and Max-Ethers that are pretty cheap now (at least NQ). I do have AST leveled but it's not my main, but it's my friend's main and he said MP is rarely a problem even on Nocturnal. Right now AST have the second best MP management on the game between healers.

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Except the only differences between pre-patch and post-patch are LA and Ewer. Ewer is left out of the equation as stated, so we're comparing 9 seconds of extra refresh, which if assuming tick/3s and 707mp/tick, equates to 2121MP. That's less than a single Ascend unless you use Lightspeed too. Again, if Ewer is tossed into the mix as well, that's a whole different situation. 2121MP is a lot in any regular healing situation, and it can make/break a chain-res situation too.

Now, putting it in perspective, compared to pre-patch you get about 90% of an Ascend's cost every 2 minutes as wiggle room, which is completely open to personal interpretation afterwards, especially since it is scenario-dependent. Then again, it may just be my definitions of chain-res and mana-hurting being different, because yay semantics. It just appeared very blown out of proportions to me in the initial message with the little information that was actually given, since it also matters if you play conservative and stack your mana for that 'oh crud' moment (at which yes, it could give you a whole 2-3 Ascends in difference), whether the deaths are spaced out, whether you play offensive and burn all your extra MP away as it comes, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

It just appeared very blown out of proportions to me in the initial message with the little information that was actually given

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Well, you're not the only one who thinks it's blown out of proportion. The only way this would seem possible would be if they were casting ascend and only ascend.

Ascend costs 2652mp off the top of my head. With a 8s cast time it can be translated into 331.5mp/s consumed. Benefic II is around 795 mp/gcd or 318 mp/s consumed. IF the astrologian would be chain raising and nothing else, it's actually plausible to an extend. But I think the time and resources would be better spend to prevent more deaths, rather than raising over and over

I'm sorry, I'm not sure why that was taken the way it was, certain things don't translate well into text I guess. The point I was trying to make is that I can be completely wreckless, overhealing and dishing out an unreasonable amount of rezzes in a single fight while continuing to function with a very comfortable amount of MP remaining. I've also found restoring my MP after death to be relatively quick and easy nowadays

I still think Celestial Opposition should give a potency buff to shields and cards while in Noct. I'd leave it up to the devs to figure out how big of a potency percentage.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

The Bad:

- Gravity is still obtained only at level 52. It should be switched with Combust II.

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I think Combust II was pre-50 was because both WHM and SCH has at least 2 DoTs, as definitely had 2 DoTs of the same "Series" by 50. While I agree the timing of how gravity is learned is an issue, I think it would bring another issue. While WHM and SCH can have decent DPS for both AoE and Single-Targets, AST has to "choose" between the two unless Combust II suddenly becomes an AoE spell.

On the other hand there were some complaints about homogenization regarding Healers, so I think some people might be glad that AST at least can't outshine the other 2 in 2.0 synched content.

I didn't see it discussed, but I'm curious on others thoughts of this point:

Comparing an endgame party comp of WHM/SCH to WHM/AST(Noct) with the 3.2 changes I envision WHM/AST actually working with WHM as the support healer.

WHM has strong DPS and due to HoTs it can stance dance easily as support. What it lacks in that role is MP conservation. That is where AST changes come in to supply MP to the WHM.

I think that would actually make AST/WHM a competitive combination.

Thoughts?

Any healing team without a SCH is going to be sub optimal because it is simply so good at it's role. That being said, any of the combos are workable. One thing you may run into in your setup is WHMs dpsing can run into mana issues, and AST also have mana issues in marathon fights - you may be relying on some good luck Ewer RNG to ensure each healer gets one or two. The other thing you are missing is the massive AOE shielding capability of a spread Adlo + Fey Covenant - although I am unsure how much it will be needed in this raid tier.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I didn't see it discussed, but I'm curious on others thoughts of this point:

Comparing an endgame party comp of WHM/SCH to WHM/AST(Noct) with the 3.2 changes I envision WHM/AST actually working with WHM as the support healer.

WHM has strong DPS and due to HoTs it can stance dance easily as support. What it lacks in that role is MP conservation. That is where AST changes come in to supply MP to the WHM.

I think that would actually make AST/WHM a competitive combination.

Thoughts?

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It could work, but why pigeonhole a job that excels at burst healing into an off-heal/DPS role, when SCH already excels at it without having to hope for good card RNG to sustain their mana?

Comparing SCH to either of the other two healers is utterly pointless; SCH was designed for the off-heal role, Noct AST for some reason wasn't, and therefore WHM and AST can't begin to compete for SCH's slot. What the real question is is: if you happen to have WHM and AST, which one do you have do the off-healing role? In this case I also agree that WHM is the better off-healer than N.AST is. WHM can roll regens while in Cleric stance to simulate a fairy, has better DPS than AST, and can indeed be fed Ewers to sustain it. The 'correct' answer is "level SCH" but that is a horrible solution to the problem.

X/SCH vs. WHM/AST is an obvious win for /SCH because SCH is nearly irreplaceable. But for WHM/AST vs AST/WHM I favor AST/WHM.

In a support hlr role sch can't be topped with its fairy/utility and mitigation that being said these changes are really nice but doesn't solve the nocturnal ast issue of being viable over sch. with still having the worse dps for mp ratio of all hlrs and not having a decent substain healing while dpsing it can cause more of a burden on main hlr/grp, i still believe all fights are gunna be passable regardless of comp its just u rather have a sch/X over Whm/Ast anyday for more ease.

I do think theres a way to help this;
Maybe CO and TD could change 'Nocturnal Field' to 'Nocturnal Barrier' when it instead gains 'A barrier around target that mitigates 3/4 of the shield provided by Nocturnal Field for its duration' This may have to come with a longer cd for TD or slight decrease in AB nocturnal potency but it would provide noct ast with something without affecting Duirnal or sch
Any thoughts? or bad idea from get go?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

It could work, but why pigeonhole a job that excels at burst healing into an off-heal/DPS role, when SCH already excels at it without having to hope for good card RNG to sustain their mana?

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Just looking at it from another angle. Since WHM has strong DPS as well and great sustained heals through HoTs, which compliments NoctAST as main heal for lacking great DPS and sustained heals.

That's why I wondered if others had any views on that idea as well, since 3.2 Ewer can now put out 2210 MP per normal use.

Ewer + RR Arrow/Spear = 4420 MP
Ewer + RR Arrow/Spear + TD = 6630 MP
Ewer + RR Bole + TD = 6630 MP

Trough Draw, Redraw, and Spread you should be able to get that combo @ 2 minute intervals + Time Dilation is 90s CD

What I wasn't sure of is how much MP WHM would actually need in that situation. From what I can see is that @ 14,000 MP it takes WHM roughly 3.5 minutes to go OOM in full DPS mode. (efficient usage of Shrouds/Assize) - so it would need an additional 4k MP/minute to sustain itself similar to SCH.

Which should translate into needing ~18k MP + Ewer support. So I'm not sure if that would still make it as good, simply from WHM's stronger single target damage/burst damage + more controlled heals (multi regen compared to the fairy)

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I didn't see it discussed, but I'm curious on others thoughts of this point:

Comparing an endgame party comp of WHM/SCH to WHM/AST(Noct) with the 3.2 changes I envision WHM/AST actually working with WHM as the support healer.

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Well, it's not like you're the first who thought of this idea. For example:

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Originally Posted by Triston

I've always wondered why people try to cram AST into SCH's slot when going WHM/AST. AST and WHM have comparable main healing, and WHM's DPS is objectively better than AST. Although I haven't put it in practice, why is it very seldom raised the proposition that AST be the primary healer in BOTH compositions, and have WHM fill the "support healer" role?

Accuracy is an issue, and will need to be addressed by SE, but WHM's DPS rotation is better in all ways than AST. AST can use Ewers to supplement WHM's mp, (though not as well as SCH does, which is itself an issue that needs be addressed) and WHM can use Regens as their version of fairy heals to keep up sustain while in Cleric Stance. Meanwhile Nocturnal AST can use shields more liberally than SCH does (both are inefficient, but Aspected Benefic I *think* is more efficient than Adloquium) and cards to support the raid. This I've always thought would be superior to Noct AST trying to copy SCH and falling short on all three of DPS/mana/healing, but I don't have enough experience to see where having Noct AST primary heal in an AST/WHM combo could be worse.

Is it just that WHMs are so accustomed to being the main healer they find it unthinkable to play the DPS-healer role?

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Follow where that quote came from if you are curious about how that (short) discussion went

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, it's not like you're the first who thought of this idea. For example:



Follow where that quote came from if you are curious about how that (short) discussion went

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Oh I missed that post on the Astrologian Impossible to Balance Thread. It does look like the discussion was short lived, although it was also before the 3.2 Changes as well. Maybe it requires further discussion? Since a few of the points that would make being a WHM Support Heal for NoctAST were partially addressed.

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Very much this. While there are situations in which it makes more sense to have a WHM temporarily DPS instead of a SCH, a WHM cannot put out sustained DPS like a SCH does without severe outside help. A SCH has virtually infinite MP while DPSing in Cleric Stance, whereas a WHM will MP-floor after just a few minutes, and that's assuming you do not use even a single heal.

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An interesting point here is that SCH does have virtually infinite MP while DPSing as long as all of their Energy Drains connect. This requires being as close to the accuracy cap as possible. Which leads to the next point.

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Originally Posted by NamoNanamo

My biggest problem with whm main dpsing is the accuracy. THeir dots can miss. (I spoke about a3s)

If you are main healer/dps, you can always switch to help your partner. So the whm can Medica II or switch role if he lacks mana.

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Yes a WHM's Dots can miss but as a support healer they would need to stack accuracy the same as SCH, because while 2/3 of SCH's dots wont miss if their Energy Drain misses it's a terrible MP loss.

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These were the only points in that other thread as far as discussion went. All very valid points and I'm not certain that the MP issues on WHM can be fully addressed by AST even with the 3.2 changes. There's also the issue of if you had an AST/SCH party then those buffs could be used for other abilities other than MP recovery.

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I guess the other intersting thing is WHM's healing abilities, Tetra, Asylum and Assize. These all require no MP and Assize gives MP and are fully useable as support heal skills.