That Garlean guy, what was his name? Gaius Van Baelsar

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Even if it was the Echo or not, we will need a ton of aether as a fuel to cast the Sword of Light.

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Oh, I agree, but I edited and clarified a few things. I'm actually arguing we didn't need Hydaelyn's "fuel" because we were in very close contact with Lahabrea - much closer than the other times we've used it and certainly closer contact with him than any other Ascian since we were literally sharing a mindspace. We banished Lahabrea by cutting his connection rather than removing the plug, if you would. We weren't trying to unmake him, simply kick him out. It's the unmaking process that is energy-intensive.

I'm simply debating semantics, unless you'd prefer me throw around crackpot ideas?

Actually its the Lahabrea thing that makes me think we can save Estinien. The Echo lets us break a lot of rules and I could easily see us being able to reach in and ripe Nidhogg or Estinien out the other.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Actually its the Lahabrea thing that makes me think we can save Estinien. The Echo lets us break a lot of rules and I could easily see us being able to reach in and ripe Nidhogg or Estinien out the other.

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I completely agree. The way we were able to separate Lahabrea and Thancred using our Echo by entering the shared mindspace pretty much cements it for me.

I mean, we Echo blasted Cid's amnesia away. That's just absurdity. Our Echo is broken and it makes sense why Elidibus would be interested.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I completely agree. The way we were able to separate Lahabrea and Thancred using our Echo by entering the shared mindspace pretty much cements it for me.

I mean, we Echo blasted Cid's amnesia away. That's just absurdity. Our Echo is broken and it makes sense why Elidibus would be interested.

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He has the same power and a better understanding of it that us. The "Echo-Ex-Machina" is how the Acsians are Semi-Immortal to begin with. But, I notice as we get better at controlling and understanding the echo, it makes Elidibus get closer and closer to soiling his robe. He REALLY didn't like that we unlocked Blessing of Light Level 2. And Killing 2 Ascians and a Primal all in a short time period REALLY pissed him off.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

He has the same power and a better understanding of it that us.

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This is purely conjecture, but I think it's because he does know so much more about it than we do that he is limited by it. Our character, instead, is seemingly limited only by our imagination in its capabilities; our lack of knowledge would allow us to be more experimental and creative. Unfortunately, it's hard to really show something like this in-game and the ideas would probably be put into our mouths by someone else.

Related to that last part (and spoilering, because I'm waaaaay off topic):

I know we like to say how the Scions/Alphinaud speak for us and we're basically just doing what everyone else says while being a mime, but the current relic quest has an interesting example of our character thinking for themselves and using their own ideas to finish powering their weapon up - and they're more effective than what others tell us, providing the last boost to our weapon.

Namely, no one tells us to use the past events to further our weapon's strength, but we went and "reimagined" Sohm Al, Aery, and Vault - and it worked.

Soooo, our ignorance is power and The Echo-Ception is our Trump card?

Yep, makes since. This is a Final Fantasy game after all. Since when has a protagonist needed to understand their power to win with it.

You have to remember that although all echos share traits, all echos also have unique properties. Krile's sensitivity to the residue of a person's soul for example is her echos unique trait. We cant do that with ours. That would mean that on top of its general uses our echo would almost certainly have special properties that we have probably only really tapped passively or by accident and I'm almost certain that considering our importance with the Powers-That-Be that our echo has some particularly valuable properties.

I think our echo is the thing that made Hydaelyn pick us as her primary champion. Its really the only thing that is truly unique to us. There are plenty of strong and brave fighters around who are probably at our level and the blessing is something we were given because we were chosen not the other way round.

That's the WoL's real trick. Its that we can break the rules. We attacks can harm monsters who would otherwise shrug them off. We can take hits from such powers that mortals shouldn't be able to take. We can do that because our power is to gimp the overwhelming power of pseudo-gods and similar constructs. We remove their 'I Win' button and force them to fight on our level (mostly).

I think eventually we will have to master the echo but I think its purposely being left to the side for the time being. They need things to explore further into the future after all.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

You have to remember that although all echos share traits, all echos also have unique properties. Krile's sensitivity to the residue of a person's soul for example is her echos unique trait. We cant do that with ours. That would mean that on top of its general uses our echo would almost certainly have special properties that we have probably only really tapped passively or by accident and I'm almost certain that considering our importance with the Powers-That-Be that our echo has some particularly valuable properties.

I think our echo is the thing that made Hydaelyn pick us as her primary champion. Its really the only thing that is truly unique to us. There are plenty of strong and brave fighters around who are probably at our level and the blessing is something we were given because we were chosen not the other way round.

That's the WoL's real trick. Its that we can break the rules. We attacks can harm monsters who would otherwise shrug them off. We can take hits from such powers that mortals shouldn't be able to take. We can do that because our power is to gimp the overwhelming power of pseudo-gods and similar constructs. We remove their 'I Win' button and force them to fight on our level (mostly).

I think eventually we will have to master the echo but I think its purposely being left to the side for the time being. They need things to explore further into the future after all.

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Although you're correct about the Echo differing in potency and exactly what it grants it's user between those awoken to it (for instance, Minfilia can only view another's memories and cannot understand foreign languages, where as there was a generic npc in the Waking Sands in 1.0 who couldn't view the past but was granted a proficiency in language, and the player's character has proficiency in both), it's not quite correct that the player was uniquely and specifically chosen by Hydaelyn to always be the Warrior of Light - that instead happened purely as a result of dumb luck and our own temerity and stubbornness.

Right at the start, we're awoken to the power of the Echo along with many others, something that isn't even a recent phenonemon, people were being awoken to the Echo way back before the Calamity, and a short time later, we're tasked, along with numerous other adventurers, to seek out the Crystals of Light and accordingly are given Hydaelyn's Blessing. She actually does not refer to us as her 'Champion' or 'The Warrior of Light' until after we've succeeded in gaining all the Crystals and defeating both Gaius and Lahabrea during Operation Archon - prior to that we're just another Echo-using adventurer.

The player's character is not the only one to have the Echo, they're not even the only one to possess the Blessing of Light and Crystals of Light (Ysayle and Krile also possess/possessed them). However, we were the only one to succeed in gaining all of them, and thus only then did we become anointed by all, Hydaelyn included, as the Champion of Eorzea and the Warrior of Light.

Semantics I know, but I just thought it needed clarifying that for a good portion of the game we're not actually 'Hydaelyn's Champion', we're just a nondescript adventurer who manages to come out on top where others failed. Hydaelyn didn't choose just one potential 'Warrior of Light' by granting one special person the Echo and Blessing of Light, she chose countless people for this task, awakening hundred, thousands of people from all walks of life across Eorzea, many of whom weren't even adventurers. All were awoken to the Echo, and asked to seek out the Crystals. Many ignored the call, just as many tried and failed. A few actually managed to succeed in gaining a Crystal of their own.

But only one ultimately succeeded in gaining ALL the Crystals, the player. It's as one of the game's many tagline's says after all, we well and truly, "Heeded the Crystal's Call." ;)

I disagree. I think she had plans from us pretty early one. There is two reasons for this.

Firstly, the way things are playing Hydaelyn can't just rely on dumb luck. Her enemies certainly aren't. I think we were drawn to the crystals or vies versa. It's worth remembering that a Crystal of Light is a surrendered portion of Hydaelyn's power gifted to her followers so she cant just hand them out like candy. Iceheart had one but Krile didn't, at least that we have seen. She instead borrowed an old one from Matoya.

Secondly, half the point of our test by Midgarsormr was to get stronger but also to prove that we deserved to be chosen. If you simply earned the role in the first place there would be little need to prove oneself a second time. Just holding the Crystals would be enough.

I'd also mention that according to the Wandering Minstrel the Divine Chronicles actually foresee our coming in the wake of the calamity. That would suggest our rise as the WoL wasn't completely random.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd love for the Scions/Hydaelyn to be called out for that. They make no effort to rescue anybody else under the thrall of an Ascian. Which to me is a clear example of Hydaelyn and the Scions playing favourites - and that Hydaelyn may not actually love all of her 'children' after all, let alone equally. Not that I'd want that particular plot device to be used to save any and all who happen to come under the Ascian's control, mind you...

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I actually meant Lahabrea, but you're not wrong. We don't have any proof actually killing an Ascian-possessed person will kill the Ascian with them, either...

We can't possibly know of everyone possessed by an Ascian. Aside from Thancred, the only one we know to have sort of been possessed was Travanchet, a minor character from 1.x whose role was kind of vague. The only other people we know to be possessed by Ascians are underlings of Lahabrea who are only important to the SMN 50-60 line, they're corpses instead of living people, and we work our butts off to give them a proper rest.

As for Hydaelyn showing some people more favor than others? That's plain to see in the Journal after Haurchefant's death, which notes that he was a man of no less honor or courage than you, yet Hydaelyn never smiled upon him. I don't expect her to go around giving everyone the kind of grace we have, but... I'd like to know why we were chosen beyond "hero who puts up with damn near everything with a smile and a nod."

I actually think it'd be a pretty great way to mitigate some of the WoL's plot armour. To have them and their allies criticised once it becomes widely known that whilst they're putting down major threats and navigating the political field the fallout is pretty brutal - since a lot of 'normal' people are slain and largely forgotten along the way. Neither Ul'dah or Ishgard have been made 'better' for the WoL's meddling -not truly, at least. I guess I'm just not a huge fan of the idea of it being seen as amazing and honourable to sacrifice one's life on behalf of Hydaelyn/WoL. Which I suppose is contradictory since I'm not opposed to characters being killed off. In fact, I encourage it...albeit under different circumstances.

After all, war doesn't have any real winners. I'm hoping that Matoya's words in the trailer are indicative of the story going to great lengths to cement that. The WoL has at times been shown to be rather ruthless and unreasonable. I want to see more of that and meaningful consequences as a result.

Its incredubly unlikely, but we MAY get the Gunblade as a Job one day, and logically it seems like we would need a Galean to teach us, So... what if he survived, be it his choice or someone rescuing him and he is the one to teach us how they work.

Imagine that all of the Job quests as he teaches you could be him showing his side of the argument over what is right and wrong, but not in like a push way, more in a "consider my way of thinking for a moment".
So like we could learn how their weapons work and could get a little more insight into his character and motivations. Of all the character "villains" we have met so far he strikes me as one who actually is interested in words over force in a way.

For example, though it was through a use of force in a way he did offer everyone the chance to surrender without bloodshed, and I dont recall any times where he directly straight up ordered murder (though there is one time in the 2.0 story that something happens, i.e. the Waking Sands raid, but he might have ordered capture and the others took it upon themselves to kill).

It's just a thought. We could then even get to see the man behind the armour.

I don't think people would harass on the WoL that much. The reality is that people need the WoL more than s/he needs them and at least part of the WoL would be more than willing to just walk away from all of it, as shown in the DRK quests. Regardless of the WoL's failings and their have been plenty without the WoL all the city states would be suffering much worse if only just from the Primals.

Being the WoL is rather a poor deal. They have to take massive risks with little reward beyond peoples thanks. With their skills and abilities they could become very powerful and wealthy individuals if they wanted. Instead they go running around fighting godlike beings and ancient evils, going to extraordinary lengths to solve other peoples problems, and pouring a massive amount of effort into trying to bring other groups together peacefully. Considering what they WoL gets out of it the rest of Eorzea really doesn't have much grounds to stand on to go berating the WoL. The WoL doesn't owe them squat.

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Originally Posted by Balphagor_

For example, though it was through a use of force in a way he did offer everyone the chance to surrender without bloodshed, and I dont recall any times where he directly straight up ordered murder (though there is one time in the 2.0 story that something happens, i.e. the Waking Sands raid, but he might have ordered capture and the others took it upon themselves to kill).

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That really depends on how involved he was in the recruitment of Ala Mhigan Conscripts. The Garleans then had the brainwashed youths they took away from their families murder a family member.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I guess I'm just not a huge fan of the idea of it being seen as amazing and honourable to sacrifice one's life on behalf of Hydaelyn/WoL. Which I suppose is contradictory since I'm not opposed to characters being killed off. In fact, I encourage it...albeit under different circumstances.

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I personally am less a fan of how Moenbryda and Ysayle (and G'raha over in optional land) seemed to end their soul-searching character arcs by discovering that suicide is the answer. Especially considering Moen and Raha pulled their sacrifices as a direct response to the sacrifices of others. When does it end?

Nanamo's death would have been so good for the setting: we wouldn't need to justify it to ourselves as anything other than unmitigated tragedy, and it would have let them take the gloves off and make Ul'dah our token evil city-state. Instead we're just going around meeting interesting people with interesting problems, and teaching them that their problems don't need real solutions because their lives are worth so much less than the greater good.

Ysayle's sacrifice was just so misplaced and absurd, don't even get me started. It was nice from a dramatic standpoint, I suppose, but while we all know that I'm one of the ones constantly pushing for a darker story, I too, am getting a bit worn thin on XIV's glorification of sacrifice as if it somehow makes things better in the end. It doesn't.

But at least Ysayle had something she felt she had to atone for. Moenbryda? She was vibrant, happy, in love with life and Urianger, and her sacrifice was equally silly in the way she was basically heralded as a hero.

I agree, Nanamo would have been a good one to keep permanently dead. It was considered completely a tragedy, not romanticized at all. Because it was so horrible made it all the more impacting.

I believe you were the one who mentioned it, Fenral, but the real issue right now is that it's primarily 1.0 protagonists protected by this plot armor. This hurts the narrative more than anything else.

That being said, 2.5 was a masterwork for Gideon Emery, proving once again he is one of the best English voice actors in the business (along with Liam O'Brien, if I may say so), so Moenbryda's death was kiiiiinda sorta worth it. Maybe. A little bit. Okay, fine, I like Nabriales better. You win.

And here we go again with the deads......

Can we please dont go off topic?

GAIUS LIVES.

I'll never give up hope. ;_;

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Originally Posted by Teakwood

GAIUS LIVES.

I'll never give up hope. ;_;

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Uh oh...

You do know it is that kind of misplaced hope and devotion that actually gives birth to Primals, the very 'false gods' Gaius himself was hellbent on destroying?

The irony would be delicious. ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Uh oh...

You do know it is that kind of misplaced hope and devotion that actually gives birth to Primals, the very 'false gods' Gaius himself was hellbent on destroying?

The irony would be delicious. ;)

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The amount of disgust and contempt I'd have for that primal would make that figbt extreemly personal.

As much as I like Gaius, and primal abomination taking his image would be an insult to the very man it was copying and I would destroy it with extreme prejudice.

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Originally Posted by Teakwood

GAIUS LIVES.

I'll never give up hope. ;_;

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Yes he lives... I mean : he will live thanks to Dissidia. (That's what I'm hoping)

Interview Japan Expo 2014 :

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Several players were disappointed to see a character as charismatic as Gaius van Baelsar being defeated so easily in the Praetorium. This does not go well with his status and the place he occupied in the Garlean Empire. Can we expect to see one day, a new battle against Gaius? One which would honor the strength he should have had ?
We know that the Wandering Minstrel is capable of many things.


Yoshida : Actually, to tell you the truth, there was a plan to have another battle related with Gaius but at the moment our focus is on other stuffs. There’s many other things that we have to prioritize at the moment so our focus is on other ideas and plans.
I'm thoughtfully aware that Gaius is extremely popular among the players, we see all the feedbacks from our players.
I know some people will say “Rather than joining one of the three City-states Grand Company I would have rather joined the Empire”, I know some people even think that way so I do definitely want to try to focus on their storyline among the Empire as well.
But that being said I’m quite against the idea of having a dead person coming back so if it’s made, I can’t or promise or guarantee it’s going to be happening the way you might want, but there might be some kind of way for you to get the oppotunity to fight against him one day.

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I'm glad that they acknowledge that there's a lot of people who want to side with the Empire. That's very promising - and I'd happily do it in a heartbeat if granted the opportunity. Siding with Garlemald against a much bigger threat out of necessity would be quite intriguing.

A Minstral's Ballad fight seems just about right vs Gaius

I'd want to see some pretty major policy and attitude changes in the Empire before I allied with Garlemald as a state. The hold forced conquest, oppression, and state sanctioned rape and murder I find off putting, not to mention their habits of messing with stuff which really should be better not messed with.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I'd want to see some pretty major policy and attitude changes in the Empire before I allied with Garlemald as a state. The hold forced conquest, oppression, and state sanctioned rape and murder I find off putting, not to mention their habits of messing with stuff which really should be better not messed with.

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At least in Ul'dah, Limsa, and Ishguard those things are technically illegal. (Even if Cilia is the only one enforcing them Batman style)

If we could get a more moderate Garlean faction I wouldn't mind teaming up with or joining them.

Not until they get the conquest and forced conscription taken out of their dogma, and finally learn that messing with Allagan shit is always bad news bears.

Kinda why I'm hoping van Hydrus turns out to be more General Leo than Kefka. Ehh...

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Originally Posted by Belhi

not to mention their habits of messing with stuff which really should be better not messed with.

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Oh, yes, because wallowing in one's eternal lack of worthiness is totally the right path a better world. Maybe they lack scruples, but you can't get anywhere by always playing it safe. There isn't an empire in the whole of history that was evil for evil's sake. The stronger and more pure the ideals, the easier it becomes to justify "tragic necessities."

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Originally Posted by Cilia

and finally learn that messing with Allagan shit is always bad news bears.

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Until we need Omega to stop Shinryu and realize that we burned all the instruction manuals to keep them out of the wrong hands. Whoopsie.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Until we need Omega to stop Shinryu and realize that we burned all the instruction manuals to keep them out of the wrong hands. Whoopsie.

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I'm not saying we should destroy Allagan tech, but messing with it should be a last resort. We need careful study and in-depth instructions to use something like that... even the Allagans didn't fully understand the Ultima Weapon's capabilities, and they made the damn thing!

For all we know, refurbishing and rebooting Omega will just lead to someone using its Wave Cannon and blowing up Ul'dah.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Oh, yes, because wallowing in one's eternal lack of worthiness is totally the right path a better world. Maybe they lack scruples, but you can't get anywhere by always playing it safe. There isn't an empire in the whole of history that was evil for evil's sake. The stronger and more pure the ideals, the easier it becomes to justify "tragic necessities."


Until we need Omega to stop Shinryu and realize that we burned all the instruction manuals to keep them out of the wrong hands. Whoopsie.

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My issue isn't simply the use of Allagan technology. My issue is the recklessness or risks that they take. There is a balance and the Garleans really aren't sensible about what they mess with. They are way too power hungry and arrogant with tech. Just look at the Meteor project. Messing around with the Allagan Transmitter destroyed on of their sites and they still went a head with it regardless with the approval of the emperor. The very fact they considered dropping a moon onto the planet was insanely reckless. There are some things you just really shouldn't mess with.

Using your Shinryu example, yes we might use Omega but only in a situation where we have no other option we can come up with and the risk of activating Omega is less or equal to the act of not stoping Shinryu. The Garleans generally don't wait for there to be that desperate a need.

There is also the ethics aspect. The Allag got into stuff which really shouldn't be repeated just on a moral principle. I mean between Neutral Link technology and their Chimera labs you can see they weren't working with a strong ethical principle. Even with the imprisoning of primals, while a clever way of keeping them from being resummoned, had issues. The state they kept the dragons in Dalamud was extremely cruel.

Now I agree that no empire is evil for evils sake. I'm not even calling the Garlean's evil. Its just what they are doing and the risks they take isn't ok.

Well, at this point it's not like it's even realistically feasible for us to ally with them, anyway, no matter how much we twist our logic and agree with certain policies. Not because of the whole way they're painted as evil, but because our Echo. Until they can get over that particular barrier, we probably shouldn't go anywhere near them.

Or until we learn to better control it and don't go spamming it on random peoples' memories against their will to use to our advantage while inside a city where it's obvious for anyone with eyes to see.

The same goes for Sharlayan too, really, but they'd be interested for entirely different, unhealthy reasons.

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Originally Posted by Fenral;3579848[B

Oh, yes, because wallowing in one's eternal lack of worthiness is totally the right path a better world. Maybe they lack scruples, but you can't get anywhere by always playing it safe. There isn't an empire in the whole of history that was evil for evil's sake. The stronger and more pure the ideals, the easier it becomes to justify "tragic necessities."

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This seems to be a common problem with this forum. Seeing "A is a bad idea" and replying with "WHAT, SO YOU WANT ZZZZZZZZZZZZ?!?!?!". Like....no, chill. There's an inbetween. Like realizing that some things really were absolutely horrible ideas from the outset. Like powering a refugee ship with enslaved demons, or trusting a power source you know literally nothing about.

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Originally Posted by Greaf

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Interesting quote, thanks for posting that! I look forward to fighting against the empire, mainly because I'm hoping we got some Garlean style armor sets. I'm also looking forward to waging some war on their turf and seeing the Garlean civilians. Though I have another nickname for them: insurgents.

I'd rather embrace Garlemald as a whole, flaws included, than have it toned down considerably to appease those who happily criticise the place at every turn but then turn a blind eye to Eorzea's problematic behaviour and attitudes.

Final Fantasy games have a long history of making factions and individuals extreme but with redeeming qualities. Ishgard was - and still is - rather shady. It does not need to fall. Ul'dah was - and still is - rather shady. It does not need to fall either. Garlemald was - and still is - rather shady. It, too, does not need to fall.

It's interesting and unique enough to be much more than a generic evil faction - especially when very little in this setting appears to be purely good or purely evil.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

This seems to be a common problem with this forum. Seeing "A is a bad idea" and replying with "WHAT, SO YOU WANT ZZZZZZZZZZZZ?!?!?!". Like....no, chill. There's an inbetween.

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I really only bring up extremes as they are presented in-game, you know. It'd be something else entirely if we were ever presented with more than two diametrically opposed courses of action at a time, but that never happens.

They'll get there, eventually, maybe even with some stock message about finding the path between the two extremes, but with this pacing it'll be more of a "yeah, and?" than the shocking revelation they want to build to.

Yeah, it'd be NICE if Garlemald was moderate enough to embrace, flaws and all, but when those flaws include "brutal expansionism", it might not actually be possible. Their misguided, wanton use of Allagan technology is one thing, and hardly a deal-breaker; rampant imperialism is something else entirely*. And that's the rub. That's their major antagonistic quality, and it's one that has to go before we would join forces with them.

It's a problem compounded by the fact that, historically, empires are characterized by their imperial nature defining their entire national identity. It means the leadership is pro-expansionism, certainly, but it also tends to mean the citizens themselves are pro-expansionism. There's always a counter-culture that can be latched onto (and, as some have mentioned here, that's almost certainly going to be an aspect to the war at some point), but I don't think it's too much of a long shot to imagine the average Garlean citizen is actively proud of their nation and its "accomplishments". You think we're having trouble with Ishgard now? Try convincing the people of a strong, thriving nation that they're in the wrong for doing the very thing that is making them strong. It'd be like telling the average British citizen of the colonialism era that their empires abroad were harmful - they tend to conveniently ignore the fact that their prosperity is at the expense of literally everyone else.

But! Maybe the people of Garlemald proper aren't living all that great. Maybe the constant state of conquering and war-waging has wearied them, much as it did to Ishgard. We have no idea. But yeah, I'm not sure if the elimination of their very Imperial nature would be considered "toned down considerably", Theodric, but it's going to be what has to go.

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*And is, in fact, several orders of degree worse than anything else the other City-States have done

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I really only bring up extremes as they are presented in-game, you know. It'd be something else entirely if we were ever presented with more than two diametrically opposed courses of action at a time, but that never happens.

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Muder all the dragons because otherwise they will burn ishgard to the ground, or side with the dragons because Ishgard is Shit?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd rather embrace Garlemald as a whole, flaws included, than have it toned down considerably to appease those who happily criticise the place at every turn but then turn a blind eye to Eorzea's problematic behaviour and attitudes.

Final Fantasy games have a long history of making factions and individuals extreme but with redeeming qualities. Ishgard was - and still is - rather shady. It does not need to fall. Ul'dah was - and still is - rather shady. It does not need to fall either. Garlemald was - and still is - rather shady. It, too, does not need to fall.

It's interesting and unique enough to be much more than a generic evil faction - especially when very little in this setting appears to be purely good or purely evil.

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I'd hardly want them to whitewash Garlemald, but I'd rather not side with them beyond an alliance of necessity unless they dealt with SOME of their issues.

But really a bunch of us are asking for a more moderate option in Garlemald. This wouldn't be too much different from the reformists in Ishgard, the Royalists and decent Moneterists in Ul'dah, or the Privateers in Limsa. As opposed to the Papacy, Lolorito, and the Lominsans that want to go back to open piracy.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd rather embrace Garlemald as a whole, flaws included, than have it toned down considerably to appease those who happily criticise the place at every turn but then turn a blind eye to Eorzea's problematic behaviour and attitudes.

Final Fantasy games have a long history of making factions and individuals extreme but with redeeming qualities. Ishgard was - and still is - rather shady. It does not need to fall. Ul'dah was - and still is - rather shady. It does not need to fall either. Garlemald was - and still is - rather shady. It, too, does not need to fall.

It's interesting and unique enough to be much more than a generic evil faction - especially when very little in this setting appears to be purely good or purely evil.

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We oppose elements of the City States too when we believe there is an injustice. Ishgard is a perfect example. We fight quite a few Temple Knights and such throughout HW, particularly in the DRK thread. We fight Brass Blades, Pirate Elements and Unscrupulous merchants. The main different with the city states is their rulers policies aren't aggressively threatening others or commiting state sanctioned atrocities.

The current city states aren't even in the same ballpark as Garlemald when it comes to be shady and this includes a city made up of former pirates. Its not even close.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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To be fair, though, we do a bit of glossing over on some of the bad decisions of the city-states in the MSQ, like how Limsa basically destroyed Sahagin culture and they fight, rightfully, in self-defense, and were the ones who provoked the Kobolds. Or, for Gridania, they seem to have toned down the harsher demands of Elementals a bit unless you actually know to look for it.

I do feel as if there's a bit of an uneven portrayal, at least. Heavensward and the beast tribe quests were a bit better about it, but they still feel as if the city states are intentionally portrayed as "lighter," no matter their decisions, because we're supposed to like them and ally with them. It's the opposite for Garlemald. We're not supposed to like them, so we're shown the bad parts while we gloss over most of the good.

Edit: That is not to say that I think we're in a position for currently allying with them, mind you.

Limsa didn't destroy Sahagin culture. The conflict between the Sahagin and the Limsans is due to the Calamity destroying the Sahagin's old spawning grounds forcing the Sahagin to take new lands for the spawning site. This caused the Sahagin to attack a Limsan settlement which the Limsan's took understandably as an act of war. The Kobolds are on the Limsans but they aren't trying to wipe out the Kobolds. In both cases, at least the Limsans are open to a peaceful solution.

With Gridania, your dealing with an natural force rather than something that is good or evil. Its the price of living in the forest. Even then, the demands of the Elementals tends to be about who they are willing to let live in their forest. They operate entirely on what is best for the forest.

The fundamental different is the policy of the city's rulers and overarching policy of the population's doesn't involve harming, oppressing or abusing others. Garlemald's issues are government endorsed and frankly enforced. They are Garlean policy. The issues of the city states are things they are at least trying to mitigate or are open to change with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Belhi

With Gridania, your dealing with an natural force rather than something that is good or evil. Its the price of living in the forest. Even then, the demands of the Elementals tends to be about who they are willing to let live in their forest. They operate entirely on what is best for the forest.

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This. This right here is basically proving my point that the MSQ at least intends for you to view the city-states in a more positive light, regardless of their issues.

The Elementals have shown, without a doubt, that what they believe is best for the forest does not always mean what is best for the people living within it - or the mortals, or the world in general. They caused an Umbral Era - something that influences a much larger world, because of their forest and Eorzea. That's terrifying.

The Elementals are not nice. The Elementals do not care. And yet you're willing to defend the choice of Elemental worship and accept their occasional cruel apathy because you're (a general 'you,' not specific) conditioned to by the game, because "it's the price of living in the forest."

Looking out from Eorzea and in, I can see how one might view this as complete madness, to subject yourself to essentially the whims of fickle creatures that don't care about you just so you can live on their lands. And if they don't like you? Tough luck.