Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It's a dps loss for the under geared tank to be MTing anyway.

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No, its a dps gain. If you have one tank that can get 1600 DpS as a OT and one tank that can get 1400, the stronger tank will loose about 480 dps MTing and the weaker tank will loose 420.

And it's not an issue of gear in the first place.

Hmm, I've been with my static for about 2 months now, my warrior has essentially the exact same quality of gear as our MT, who is a paladin, and not once have I ever ripped hate off of him. This is in full slaying accessories right side that are all 210, except for one ilvl 190 ring.

My burst dps during the initial rotation is typically ahead of at least 1 or 2 of our actual dps classes, unless bad RNG means I get few crits, and I alternate between storm's eye and butcher's block building up to triple berserked cleaves, so I don't really know what to tell you. :x

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, its a dps gain. If you have one tank that can get 1600 DpS as a OT and one tank that can get 1400, the stronger tank will loose about 480 dps MTing and the weaker tank will loose 420.

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This 30% damage loss is 100% tank stance vs 100% dps stance? If your MT is 100% tank stance and losing hate, the issue is your MT.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, its a dps gain. If you have one tank that can get 1600 DpS as a OT and one tank that can get 1400, the stronger tank will loose about 480 dps MTing and the weaker tank will loose 420.

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That is entirely incorrect. The higher the gear discrepancy, the more DPS lost, as the MT will have to not only stay in tank stance, but use more enmity combos to compensate for the massive hate gen of the ot, while the better geared tank in comparison will have much more freedom to stance dance and use their higher DPS combos, if a PLD or DRK. It's simple math.

I compiled a list of the most important posts in this thread since a great many folks seemed to have completely missed them the first time. =]

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There was recently a discussion and analysis on this subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._their_threat/

Here's the summary:
The highest potency combo on WAR is also their highest threat combo (with an inbuilt enmity modifier of 3x on the second hit and 6x on the third hit). The same is not true for PLD or DRK - the highest dps combo for these classes generates no additional enmity. It is an overall raid-wide dps loss for a PLD or DRK MT to use their threat combo just to hold aggro off of an OT WAR spamming BB/SE (i.e. we can do it easily, but it hurts our dps more than it does yours). It is also a raid-wide DPS loss for PLD or DRK to OT, because every reprisal proc is equivalent to 9 BB combos, and every shield swipe proc is equivalent to 5 BB combos. If you're about to take aggro as a WAR OT, either weave in an SP combo to boost healer dps, or if the thought of a 40 potency loss every 3 GCDs is too painful, just double SE and take a 20 potency loss instead. Your raid group will love you for it, and you'll get to feel almost as awesome as you did before.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

This is right.

Here's a tl;dr for the sake of this thread and for lazy people: if your BB combo forces your MT into doing more enmity combo to keep aggro, then it's an overall raid-wide DPS loss (if your MT isn't also a WAR, obviously).

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Originally Posted by Fyce

DRK is worse. You lose 130 potency if you do a Power Slash instead of a DA'ed Soul Eater.
PLD "only" lose 80 if they do a RoH instead of a RA.

In comparison, a WAR going SE > SP instead of SE > BB will only lose 40. (SE > SE only lose 20.)

The difference is so huge that I'm not sure buffs and tank stances would even change that.

So, in short terms, the goal is to allow the MT (DRK or PLD) to do as much DPS rotations as possible during the entire fight. If the WAR OT reduce that number of DPS rotations from the MT because of its BB combo, then the overall raid DPS will be lower.
Same goes for forcing the MT to stay in Tank stance longer to compensate the high enmity of BB.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You don't understand what is being said here. It's not about "hurr durr if u lose hate ur bad! git gud scrub" it's about maximising the number of DPS combos the MT can do while not being threaten by Butcher's Block enmity.
If the MT has to trade a DPS combo for an enmity one because of the OT's BB, then the loss from the will be greater than the gain.

In an ideal situation, the OT shouldn't be higher -or barely- in enmity than the first DPS (or heal) of the aggro list. This would allow the MT to minimize the duration of his tank stance while maximizing the number of DPS combos he can do.

Also, centered text is obnoxious to read.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Also, bear in mind that the above discussion applies to collaborative tanking scenarios where MT and OT are working together to maximize raid dps. It doesn't really apply to situations in which two tanks are spamming their RoH, BB, or PS combos to determine who is truly more metal.

Just doing some napkin math, the BB combo does about 797 enmity potency per hit and SE does 203 (alternating between the two averages to 500). On DA SE is about 267, Del is 226 and PS is 857. Even when you factor in Grit, DA SE becomes 614 and Del becomes 519 before accounting for the damage reduction modifier. If you're both trying to maximize your respective dps, it can be tight at times, and there are going to be moments when one of you will have to make a compromise.

Enmity is always the tank's responsibility. But even though we sometimes view OT as a form of specialized dps class, it still is a tank, and its actions (even ones used to maximize dps) have inbuilt enmity modifiers that can rival (if not exceed) the enmity of being in tank stance. Accidentally taking enmity as OT is like messing up a tank swap. It's an error, not a sign of exceptional dps.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

W-what? Contribute to the raid? Playing like a support class? Are you some kind of c-c-c-communist?!

All joking aside, this thread has become a pretty damning indictment of the DPS IS GOD mentality. The idea of contributing to the group for a minuscule sacrifice in potency has got people hissing "baaaaad," as though to do such a thing would be unthinkable. Tunnel vision.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You litteraly said "ignoring everything about group synergy is being a good tank".

Everytime a MT (DRK/PLD) have to use an enmity combo to keep up with the OT WAR's Butcher's block, the group loses overall potency.
Even if you use Storm's Path instead of BB, if it allow the MT to use a single DPS rotation instead of an enmity one, the whole group's potency will increase.


... But who cares, right? Be a good Tank, yay.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Things have probably changed quite a bit since I was a WAR main pre-Heavensward, but I remember more than a few instances where failing to put up SP in time during early progression guaranteed that your lowest HP dps died to Megaflare. I understand that it's a 7 potency loss/GCD to SE/SP instead of a 3 potency loss/GCD for SE/SE when you're catching up on aggro, but when you have one of the most powerful raid wide damage mitigation abilities in the game, sometimes you just take the dps loss.

Hell, if you don't want SP, I'll take it back off you, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

Or the WAR can forego a tiny amount of personal DPS in exchange for better raid DPS by letting the MT stance-dance and use their damage combos instead of their enmity combos.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

Butcher's Block deals 5.5x its damage in enmity. That's the equivalent of a 1,540 potency attack. In comparison, Fell Cleave is 500, Dart Arts>Soul Eater is 400, and Royal Authority is 340.

A DRK or PLD MT /cannot/ drop stance and still maintain aggro against Butcher's Block combo spam, while dealing optimal damage on top of that. The math just doesn't work out that way.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's not a matter of being "good enough" to hold hate. Nobody is sitting here going "Well gee golly, it's just impossible for me to keep hate over a Warrior in Deliverance using Butcher's Block and I don't know how to even do that!" Anybody with a pulse, a brain, and some fingers (and some of the more talented people who lack those things) can hold hate.

But to do that as a Paladin or Dark Knight requires the use of extra Rage of Halone/Power Slash combos, that are not required to hold hate over Monks, White Mages, Astrologians, or Warriors who are being more mindful of their threat. Rage of Halone and Power Slash are a Paladin and Dark Knight's weakest combos - every time one gets used, they are doing less damage than they would be if they were able to use a Royal Authority, Delirium, or (DA) Souleater combo.

The damage that a Paladin or Dark Knight loses from having to use Rage of Halone instead of Royal Authority, or Power Slash instead of Delirium/Souleater, is significantly greater than the damage that a Warrior loses from using an extra Storm's Eye combo instead of a Butcher's Block. No amount of "being a good MT" is going to change that simple mathematical fact.

It does not make sense for a Warrior to force a Dark Knight or a Paladin to forego 60-80 potency, so that the Warrior can gain 20 potency. Not even if the PLD/DRK is in their tank stance. Not even if the Warrior has Berserk up. Butcher's Block as an OT is only ever appropriate when it is not going to force the PLD/DRK to use an enmity combo in a place where they wouldn't otherwise be using one.

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Summary (for WARs):

SE -> BB = Good! Not actually bad. Your highest potency combo rotation as WAR - however, this generates tons of enmity. I think there's a misconception that might spring up from this thread, and that's that WARs shouldn't be using BB as OT at all. This isn't true, you should use BB, but sparingly. The second you cross into the territory wherein your MT will lose hate or needs to do an extra Power Slash to compensate for your extra BB, you're looking at an over all group DPS loss.

SE -> SE = Fantastic! This combo has no enmity modifiers attached to it and is only 20 potency less than SE -> BB. It is extremely important to use this combo as often as possible as it allows your MT to stick to their DPS rotation, which is an overall group DPS gain. Again - don't neglect BB, the more you do this combo the more overall DPS you're losing. This is the key balancing act you need to perform as a WAR - if you don't feel confident in using BB, just stick to SE -> SE and you'll only be a bit less than optimal.

SE -> SP = ... Situational! You basically want to use this when you... want to put up SP (mainly tank busters, cleaves, and AOE damage though this really hasn't been that useful in current raid content). Using SE -> SE allows for a quicker transition into SP, but optimally you want to plan out all your GCDs so you can maximize BB uptime while still being able to put up Path when it's needed. If you're not comfortable with that, again, just stick to SE -> SE and put up SP when necessary.

Fracture = Often overlooked but will reduce enmity generation as well as increase DPS as long as you use it appropriately. Wouldn't recommend doing it if you don't want to play optimally, but it is a good way to drop hate during a tank swap as well as reduce your overall enmity generation per GCD.

Also, never drop SE. There are situations where you'll have to, mainly ones where you can't get in 6~ GCDs but need to apply Path, but they are few and far between (mainly just Oppressor's transitions in A4S and the first Cascade in A3S).

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Originally Posted by WolfKid

To be fair people, I never said I had problems myself now did I?

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So you made a thread about a problem you don't have, assuming it's a problem at all? OK then.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I don't care about the uses of Storm's Path utility, it's not the point. All I'm saying is that if you use BB and that forces your MT (DRK or PLD) to do an enmity combo, it'll be a potency loss for the group.

So, when you said "A good war OT uses Butcher's block to keep up high DPS.", I basically answered with "not if it forces a potency loss for your MT".
Come on, it's not that hard to get.

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This. The good WARs aren't the ones who use eye -> butchers recklessly, the good WARs are the ones constantly analyzing their threat, allowing the MT to maximize their dps up-time while having breathing room on enmity. This is especially true during speed kills, where it's required for DRK/PLD to forsake as much enmity as possible for the sake of dps when they're MT.

Clear time/group dps > personal dps, all day long. If you get a tank that wants to sit in tank stance and 1-2-3 all day, then by all means go eye -> butcher's all day, since that'd be optimal. But if your MT is actively maxing their dps output and you're approaching their enmity level as an OT WAR, lay off and take the 20 potency hit. The dps they gain from not having to enmity combo FAR surpasses yours.

I'm a bit surprised of people taking what i said seriously, those who didn't just continue what they do best. Honestly this thread should've died at the 2nd page. (i wasn't trying to troll mind you.) I seen players do a lot of things that work in their favor, I was simply posting an opinion here, and lets be honest here, 100% of the community isn't going to change their game style over what some RANDOM player THINKS. There, i said it. I started it, so now i'm ending it.

So come at me Bro.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It's about as useful as Machinist's Dismantle or Rend Mind, except even less useful cause the machinist doesn't sacrifice DPS to use it.

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all other things aside... mitigation-wise, let's not pretend that 10% damage down for 20 seconds is roughly equal to 10 seconds of A CHOICE BETWEEN 5% physical or magical damage reduction for 10 seconds. that's just silly. there have been times when you've said ok things. this is not one of them.

I use my BB combo and I rarely rip hate off my MT. Even if I do it's usually an add that doesn't matter, like in A2S.

You're giving an unqualified "don't ever do this" advice and it's not that simple.

If they are ripping aggro off you in Tank stance, guess who "should" be the new MT and guess who should be replaced?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If they are ripping aggro off you in Tank stance, guess who "should" be the new MT and guess who should be replaced?

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Goddamn, just stop.

Going to assume that left side gear difference isn't an issue.

My WAR co-tank runs the higher potency combo, and once told me that there were a few times he "backed off slightly" because the aggro bar was getting really close. That day was the last day he ever ramped down. I asked him how do I know how to stance dance optimally if you aren't playing at your absolute fullest? I told him that if he rips hate off me it is MY FAULT, not his. (with exception to the triple crit fell cleave - which is nobodies fault).

Since then I have lost hate as a PLD once to a double crit fell cleave, a handful (less than 5) of times under normal circumstance, or if I derp and pull in SwO and stay there.

I have lost hate as a DRK only on the dreaded, but loved triple crit fell cleave.

Almost without exception, any time I lose hate, it has to do with me pushing my boundries and my groups boundries on stance dancing.

If you need to tell a class to play sub optimally, then you aren't doing everything you need to be doing and you need to look inward to what you can do better. (Yes, even with PLD's issues right now)

If the MT cant keep aggro from a WAR. either theyre doing something wrong, or theyre severely undergeared compared to them.

with THAT said, a War can easily take a little bit of damage, including a tank buster if they strip hate for a second. If they strip, and maintain hate, Then its definitely not Alex Savage or Thordan theyre doing it in lol. (if so, time to replace the MT.) Any other content can easily be handled by a tank in their dps stance. And any decent tank will know to put on Defiance if they see that the other tank just cant keep hate.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

If you need to tell a class to play sub optimally, then you aren't doing everything you need to be doing and you need to look inward to what you can do better. (Yes, even with PLD's issues right now)

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You are doing less damage than you otherwise could while keeping hate against your warrior offtank and he is harming your raids' dps output. The tradeoff to do an enmity combo on the MT is greater than the loss of your warrior doing SE/SE. Hope this helps.

For every extra enmity combo you have to do because of an offtank, you lose >80 potency. For every SE/SE combo you have to do as a WAR you lose 20 potency. It's really not hard to figure out which is a bigger raid dps loss.

the 20 potency is irrelevant, when you stack enough crit, I never use BB combo once I have aggro set, and never as an OT. Just SE and the odd SP for damage bursts. The thought of dropping SE or Maim bc of mechanics would be a bigger detriment to your overall dps than that extra 20 potency, again irrelevant when your SE hits are 2.9-3k crits.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

If you need to tell a class to play sub optimally, then you aren't doing everything you need to be doing and you need to look inward to what you can do better. (Yes, even with PLD's issues right now)

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This guy gets it.

When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Goddamn, just stop.

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+1, I swear to the Twelve he gets his kicks being wrong or misinformed constantly across the forums.

The empty Vessel makes the loudest noise- William Shakespeare

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

This guy gets it.

When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

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It's not going easy so much as it is you not harming your raid group by playing badly?

I dunno how much more simple it can be. Every time your MT has to do an extra enmity combo to stay ahead of you, you cost your raid more potency per second than you gain by doing BB. It is mathematically impossible for it to work otherwise.

Edit: Unless you dual warrior. In which case your MT is never going to lose hate anyway.

I just rotate SE and SP combo back and forth when OTing.

A 40 potency loss every 2 rotations for a permanent 10% damage dealt reduction on the boss seems worth it for me. For the 6 GCDs, it'd be 1200 Potency vs 1240 potency, which is a little more then 3.3% damage loss. If you factor in that we'll get about one Fell Cleave per 6 GCD's, it'd be 1700 vs 1740 per 7 GCD's, or about a 2.5% damage loss. This is also ignoring Auto-Attacks, and other abilities.

2.5% damage loss in exchange for the MT not worrying about OT threat, and a permanent 10% damage reduction should be worth it for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

I just rotate SE and SP combo back and forth when OTing.

A 40 potency loss every 2 rotations for a permanent 10% damage dealt reduction on the boss seems worth it for me. For the 6 GCDs, it'd be 1200 Potency vs 1240 potency, which is a little more then 3.3% damage loss. If you factor in that we'll get about one Fell Cleave per 6 GCD's, it'd be 1700 vs 1740 per 7 GCD's, or about a 2.5% damage loss. This is also ignoring Auto-Attacks, and other abilities.

2.5% damage loss in exchange for the MT not worrying about OT threat, and a permanent 10% damage reduction should be worth it for everyone.

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While I do commend you for thinking of your party by doing this, SP really only needs to be applied prior to subsequent big hits, or "tank busters" what with the current ilvl>required ilvl for current content. Most healers will now be overhealing the whole fight and you'll be short on damage.

Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

I have lost hate as a DRK only on the dreaded, but loved triple crit fell cleave.

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I don't buy it. It takes 3 Fell Cleaves and an additonal 40 potency to equal the hate of a single Butcher's Block. I'd say its worse if you're losing hate to 3 FCs divided up between 9-10 GCDs than against a single BB, all other things being equal.

Anyway I dunno how people aren't grasping the math. If the MT is dropping tank stance and doing an optimal dps rotation and the WAR is using BB every other combo they WILL catch up and rip hate, it has nothing to do with skill or gear its simple math. I can't speak for PLD, but a DRK having to use PS instead of DASE just negated the raid DPS potency gains of 6.5 BB combos. Those numbers speak for themselves.

Not saying never use BB but be intelligent about it.

3x FC is all done under Berserk and IR, plus the crit stacks, plus (at least for the opener) Battle Litany/TA. Even though it's not optimal, the WAR could also use BB and skyrocket their enmity generation further during 3x FC. I can see it being possible to pull, but not if you use SE exclusively during it (which you should).

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

You are doing less damage than you otherwise could while keeping hate against your warrior offtank and he is harming your raids' dps output. The tradeoff to do an enmity combo on the MT is greater than the loss of your warrior doing SE/SE. Hope this helps.

For every extra enmity combo you have to do because of an offtank, you lose >80 potency. For every SE/SE combo you have to do as a WAR you lose 20 potency. It's really not hard to figure out which is a bigger raid dps loss.

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being more specific, my exact combo rotation is: RoH combo > Goring > RA combo - when I PLD. On a fight like Thordan, I prefer keeping the RoH debuff up as much as possible, but there are phases where I skip this in favor of a RA combo. ***Not leading into a discussion about mitigation.

Moving to a fight like A1s that is more magic based, my starting combo was the same, but I would slide into a Goring > RA > RA > , <repeat> , <sub one RA for RoH>, <go back to goring/RA x2>
It got spicy if I tried to squeeze in a 3rd RA combo before re-applying RoH, or if I pulled and stayed in SwO, or the double/triple crit fell cleave. (keep in mind this is pre-split). Perhaps you and I have a different (however slight) of a definition of what an "extra emnity combo" is. Perhaps the difference is simply the fact that the PLD OT rotation is different from it's MT rotation. WAR uses the same combo for either MT/OT role, DRK - outside of opener - uses it's DPS rotation almost exclusively in MT role. (it is weirdly wonderful to maintain hate and simply dps as a DRK, but kind of odd that the enmity combo is as avoidable as it is today).

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Unless you/anyone wish to toe the line of tank homogenization, PLD is built differently from the other tanks in concern to the MT rotation. Playing it optimally as a MT is different game play, than playing it optimally as OT and I view these roles as different within any fight, just as a main healer/off healer role is different. It is, quite frankly, a different mindset than what a DRK/WAR MT enters a fight with.
Perhaps our separation is based upon the ideal that PLD MT is not meant to be the same series of buttons (offensive) as PLD OT. In which case, I should have worded my opening post differently.

But, Instrumentality, you have alluded to a point I made a while back on another thread. Playing PLD as MT is not optimal damage wise, in any situation. PLD’s best role in the game today is as OT. As MT role, WAR’s don’t need defiance and can still run their highest potency combo (self healing, yo), and DRK’s barely need grit (but have skills that counter grits damage reduction) and barely use their enmity combo anyway (outside of initial pull). 20 seconds into a fight, PLD pulls weaker numbers as MT than both tank classes, by a significant portion. The amount of separation in the OT numbers is not quite so severe, but yes PLD is still in the cellar. A WAR or DRK lose less sliding from OT to MT than what a PLD does.

@syz – I was referring to what spookyghost mentioned – the ridiculous burst that 3xFC is under the Berserk/et all timer. And to be fair, I was pushing that line as much as I could at the time (and it was early for me as a DRK, I was still toying with openers – this was just after 3.1 ish). I did not mean to imply I always lose hate there, but I didn’t state otherwise. I haven’t lost hate as a DRK to any co-tank in quite some time.

Having said ALL OF THAT, it could be my fault because I put on a different hat when I PLD MT than when I PLD OT. I personally view the two roles almost as different classes. Which the other tank classes don’t have to do at all.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

....When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

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MT mentality right there.

Getting off topic, I just imagined how the conversation MIGHT go, if I ran into Iagainsti while doing ThorEx on Zalera and telling him to MT while I go PLD OT…. It involved a sudden onset eye twitch and an “ORLY” followed by a lengthy stare in which he is imagining Fell Cleaving my character.
…..Followed by a lol/jk and a class change to DRK.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Having said ALL OF THAT, it could be my fault because I put on a different hat when I PLD MT than when I PLD OT. I personally view the two roles almost as different classes. Which the other tank classes don’t have to do at all.

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But none of what you said has anything to do with what I said?

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

MT mentality right there.

Getting off topic, I just imagined how the conversation MIGHT go, if I ran into Iagainsti while doing ThorEx on Zalera and telling him to MT while I go PLD OT…. It involved a sudden onset eye twitch and an “ORLY” followed by a lengthy stare in which he is imagining Fell Cleaving my character.
…..Followed by a lol/jk and a class change to DRK.

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Actually, I'd say "Go for it" seeing how I MT in Deliverance no prob so far in Thor ex. The Stance Dance for Heavenly heel is real. I think it'd be a dps loss of what, 1 fell cleave for IB and one 3 GCD combo every 1-2 minutes? been two weeks since my last thor run, so I may be off on the timing.


off topic, I use /em mostly to state my opinions, followed by fireworks. You'll never get an "ORLY" out of me ;D

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

off topic, I use /em mostly to state my opinions, followed by fireworks. You'll never get an "ORLY" out of me ;D

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Hit 'em with the ol' razzle dazzle.

@instrumentality - Define your statement of an "extra" emnity combo. PLD is not built like DRK, where it can practically ignore that combo for 95%+ of a boss fight. I stated that I use it at most once out of every 3 sets (RoH > Goring > RA) during a physical damage heavy encounter. I use it less on a magic heavy encounter, and never as OT

If you consider the use of RoH at anypoint after the opener as "extra" then, yes your statement is correct.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

But none of what you said has anything to do with what I said?

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https://youtu.be/tqNhEzrWQpY

Wait what.......? I'm reading thenjoy thread and yall saying to not use path but only for tank busters? Just so you can do insane damage. Woooow the logic isn't sitting with me very well. I keep path on less damage for me, the tank, and everyone else, makes healing me that much easier and both me and the healer can dps which means more damage. You do know this is a team effort not just the OT dps. Like 10% mitigation is better then 0 mitigation point blank. I don't use bb combo for the most part not as a ot. Not trying to steal aggro so I can feel good about my dps. I would just play dps for that matter. I definitely don't berserk with bb unless I'm low on the aggro chart.

My favorite part is that Path is touted as one of the biggest selling points of WAR and yet *some* (not all!) of them avoid using it at all costs, and then you wind up with lolReprisalRequiresParryProc being on the boss more than Path (by a large margin too).

To be fair, the argument there is that Path is reliable damage reduction on hand, when you need it; whereas Reprisal's tricky to force at best.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Snip.

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People recognize path has its uses, and it should be used liberally. But in content where every bit of DPS matters, good tanks and healers shouldn't need to rely on having path up fulltime. By your logic, yes it should hold true, but in raid/trial encounters, path should only be used when needed, not because the MT can't keep hate.

Reprisal is on the boss more because it's literally more DPS, not because it's mitigation. Reprisal is an off global ability that inflicts 210 potency of damage with no other cost besides needing a parry proc. Of course it's gonna be up more than a move that's a straight DPS loss except for those situations when it can prevent a raid wipe, most often during progression raiding.

Storm's Path being a selling point was news to me up until Heavensward, despite picking it up in 2.0 for a bit. It wasn't even until I started browsing the forums that I noticed people claiming it was the greatest thing ever, and yet I have never found any particular reason to use it in most content, except while leveling 38-49 for it's minor self heal when I saw the healer was having a hard time for whatever reason. Warrior's selling point back then was Inner Beast.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

@instrumentality - Define your statement of an "extra" emnity combo. PLD is not built like DRK, where it can practically ignore that combo for 95%+ of a boss fight. I stated that I use it at most once out of every 3 sets (RoH > Goring > RA) during a physical damage heavy encounter. I use it less on a magic heavy encounter, and never as OT

If you consider the use of RoH at anypoint after the opener as "extra" then, yes your statement is correct.

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Each time you use RH (would it be in your opener or anywhere in the fight), the only question you'd have to ask yourself is "why can't I do a RA instead?".
If the answer is:
a)because the WAR OT won't apply SP, so I need to keep RH debuff,
b)because the WAR OT's Butcher's block will generate too much enmity, so I need to generate more,
... then it's a potency loss for the group in either cases, not even accounting the fact that RH debuff is worse than SP.

Same line of thinking applies to "why can't I be in Sword oath right now?". If it's because of BB from the OT WAR, then it's a problem and a great loss for the group.


Of course, if it's not any of these very few and specific cases, then it's probably fine.

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Of course, if it's not any of these very few and specific cases, then it's probably fine.

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This guy gets it.


Like in my raid I have a planned out set of enmity combos on a boss in each phase and know generally how much threat my healer(s) is going to generate. Any extra I have to use on Paladin OR Dark Knight is a straight damage loss. Warriors doing BB/SE for extended periods of time does more enmity than what I have planned and is a straight raid dps loss to correct for.

And yes I have cleared savage turns on both Paladin and Dark Knight.