VIT will scale with attack power, STR will scale but not as much

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Doesn't work that way, Defiance increases HP - not VIT. They're also trying to avoid the possibility of solo tanking as heavily as possible now so we aren't going to see any T5/T9 solo tank shenanigans in the future most likely.

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She's talking about, higher health pools being able to help sustain Survival while still dealing hefty DPS, as wars currently do.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

But you're talking about it and potentially giving people false impressions anyway. Okay. >.>

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Contradictory, maybe. That's what all jobs will eventually see anyway due to power creep. Even if it's "missleading" now, well see similar values in 3.4. Maybe 3.2 if they wreck power creep even more

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

She's talking about, higher health pools being able to help sustain Survival while still dealing hefty DPS, as wars currently do.

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I'm confused about why WARs are specifically pointed out here. Is this in regard to their tank stance Defiance? Because Shield Oath and Grit effectively do the same thing, and a bit better I might add due to 25%HP+20%RHeal =/= 20%DR. (Hint: Received Healing needs to be 25% to be equivalent, the disparity is supposively made up by the self heals WAR possessesesesessssesesesssssssssssssssssssssssssss).

WARs are probably the most squishiest in their DPS tank stance compared to PLD and DRK in their specialized setting(and DPS stance if anyone needs the clarity).

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

This probably removes all choice from gear and you will no longer change accessories to adapt to the situation. It's what I expect from the XIV battle team but I'm still disappointed.

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Assuming Strength vs Vitality as it is now is an interesting choice.

Hah.

I like many saw this coming. My tank "friends" and I all argued this back and forth. I as of now have my whole VIT set bought and treated in my retainer while as of today the tanks I know are losing thier minds about this and how they have to grind like the wind. I feel so much like the story the Ant and the Grasshopper.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

I like many saw this coming. My tank "friends" and I all argued this back and forth. I as of now have my whole VIT set bought and treated in my retainer while as of today the tanks I know are losing thier minds about this and how they have to grind like the wind. I feel so much like the story the Ant and the Grasshopper.

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Grind like the wind for what reason? There's been plenty of time to acquire multiple sets of eso gear. I have a complete collection of gordian/eso slaying accessories and still had eso to spare for more things. Hell, the eso cap is being removed anyway so....What?

That and Midas is being released and with new accessories too on top of the uncapped eso things. A good tank should have VIT and STR sets already ANYWAY. I used crafted accessories early on and still rolled on as much vit AND str stuff as I could lol.

There's no excuse.

Been thinking about this upcoming change. With tanks prioritizing Vitality, and inflating their health pools, won't that mean that mobs, adds, and bosses will need to be buffed accordingly to keep the gameplay challenging?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Been thinking about this upcoming change. With tanks prioritizing Vitality, and inflating their health pools, won't that mean that mobs, adds, and bosses will need to be buffed accordingly to keep the gameplay challenging?

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After all the pissing and moaning about Gordias, and then these changes, I fully expect the bosses in Midas to hit like freight trains. Kinda exciting really.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Grind like the wind for what reason? There's been plenty of time to acquire multiple sets of eso gear. I have a complete collection of gordian/eso slaying accessories and still had eso to spare for more things. Hell, the eso cap is being removed anyway so....What?

That and Midas is being released and with new accessories too on top of the uncapped eso things. A good tank should have VIT and STR sets already ANYWAY. I used crafted accessories early on and still rolled on as much vit AND str stuff as I could lol.

There's no excuse.

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I'm not even a raid tank and have a full vit and str set.

I bought three 210 fending accessories tonight. I'll have a complete set next week. That's what happens when eso is completely pointless for three of your 60s.

Also, my guess for VIT/STR: SE chose a target attack power value for a given ilvl, and made sure that didn't change if you stacked VIT like they wanted you to. In that scenario, VIT contributes most of your AP, and STR makes the last bit to hit the number SE expects; if you're looking at, say, 1000AP right now, I wouldn't expect that number to change if you re-spec for VIT and stack fending accessories.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

You didn't see Dragoons swapping between Crit and SkS sets based on encounters, or Monks having Vit for one fight or Str for another. They don't seem to like choice or personal preference in classes in FF.

And let's face it, our choice of gear wasnt really THAT much of a choice - it was strength all the way unless healers whined.

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All the more reason I was hoping they'd make decent choices out of tank's VIT and STR options. So that, maybe, someday, we could actually get these choices on other jobs as well.

For instance, just imagine if glamors could attach appearance and/or stat balance (with secondary stat ilvls perhaps averaged between the attached and attaching pieces)? (And, of course, that glamors, once something is used on both the item being projected and the items being projected onto, could be swapped at will.) Poof, low-Accuracy, high-SkillSpeed Monk set, dressed in crimson.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

I like many saw this coming. My tank "friends" and I all argued this back and forth. I as of now have my whole VIT set bought and treated in my retainer while as of today the tanks I know are losing thier minds about this and how they have to grind like the wind. I feel so much like the story the Ant and the Grasshopper.

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I already have a full set of gordian and Eso for both slaying and fending. Like most other tanks who have been playing since HW. The fact they are changing doesn't prove VIT is greater than STR. It shows that the STR meta was the better endgame strategy. Because they are making VIT increase damage they are making it so fending acc are useful, instead of retainer fodder.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

I like many saw this coming. My tank "friends" and I all argued this back and forth. I as of now have my whole VIT set bought and treated in my retainer while as of today the tanks I know are losing thier minds about this and how they have to grind like the wind. I feel so much like the story the Ant and the Grasshopper.

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There is no grinding lol. Why would anybody ignore vit accs? It might not be optimal for the current tank meta, but it doesn't mean its useless. Bad healers need the fluff to make sure you stay alive because well, they're bad. Even if you don't have them, there is literally 3 weeks before 3.2 drops and you can get an acc every week if you didn't buy any at all, couple that with doing VA every week, and you can have them 210 too. Baddies be bad.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

There is no grinding lol. Why would anybody ignore vit accs? It might not be optimal for the current tank meta, but it doesn't mean its useless. Bad healers need the fluff to make sure you stay alive because well, they're bad. Even if you don't have them, there is literally 3 weeks before 3.2 drops and you can get an acc every week if you didn't buy any at all, couple that with doing VA every week, and you can have them 210 too. Baddies be bad.

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Internet tough guy over here, watch out guys.

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Internet tough guy over here, watch out guys.

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Why don't you say that to me over tumblr tough guy!!

The only thing I am conerned about is that the bosses and mechanics in the next patch perhaps evolve around the 'full HP or dead' problem, which WoW had for a short while during WotLK (Patch 3.2, Crusaders' Coliseum).

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Originally Posted by Arrius

The only thing I am conerned about is that the bosses and mechanics in the next patch perhaps evolve around the 'full HP or dead' problem, which WoW had for a short while during WotLK (Patch 3.2, Crusaders' Coliseum).

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A lot of FF14 progression mechanics and tank busters are tuned around having full HP of the previous max iLVL to survive. FCoB is an excellent example, you couldn't really survive a lot of stuff without being topped off with possibly a Succor beforehand. A3S as well, minus the tank buster part.

It's one of the ways they make gear checks in this game, having enough HP to survive, while simultaneously making higher gear make mistakes less damning.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

The only thing I am conerned about is that the bosses and mechanics in the next patch perhaps evolve around the 'full HP or dead' problem, which WoW had for a short while during WotLK (Patch 3.2, Crusaders' Coliseum).

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Healers are incredibly strong in this game so that shouldn't really be much of a problem, but they'd have to cancel out a lot of the aoe type damage output that they've been so fond of if tanks start taking that level of damage.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

A lot of FF14 progression mechanics and tank busters are tuned around having full HP of the previous max iLVL to survive. FCoB is an excellent example, you couldn't really survive a lot of stuff without being topped off with possibly a Succor beforehand. A3S as well, minus the tank buster part.

It's one of the ways they make gear checks in this game, having enough HP to survive, while simultaneously making higher gear make mistakes less damning.

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But it was mainly revolving around that in the said dungeons/raids, with all mechanics being close to that.
I remember in 25-Man that we had to put 3 off healers alone for the tank back then to keep him/her alive, as the damage spikes likely would've killed the tank if left unattended even for a second.

Glad Blizzard did tone that down at 3.3/Fall of the Lich King.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

A lot of FF14 progression mechanics and tank busters are tuned around having full HP of the previous max iLVL to survive. FCoB is an excellent example, you couldn't really survive a lot of stuff without being topped off with possibly a Succor beforehand. A3S as well, minus the tank buster part.

It's one of the ways they make gear checks in this game, having enough HP to survive, while simultaneously making higher gear make mistakes less damning.

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Yes and no. If they go back to FCOB like tunings we're going to really want the extra large HP pools. Bahamut Prime's AAs were like mini tank busters themselves. The biggest problem with Alex Savage 1-4 is that boss AAs hit like Bahamut Prime's, only we then had almost double the HP even with full slaying, so the only thing we really had to worry about is TBs and healers eating sammich.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Welcome to the world of every other job in this game: quality as a player based on skill and not gear. What a fucking tragedy.

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Rather snarky considering I was agreeing with you no? I'm just annoyed that in the name of "balance" more and more choices are being removed.

Maybe they should take it one further, in the name of balance. STR, VIT, DEX, INT, MND, have all been removed. All gear now carries one stat called "effectiveness" or EFF for short. Increases damage dealt by magic and physical, and also increases your health/mana pools.

Should probably also remove the combat combo system, it's too confusing for some players, and we want to make everything as equal as possible. So now you have one button to mash, and the game will automatically use the most appropriate ability for you.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

Maybe they should take it one further, in the name of balance. STR, VIT, DEX, INT, MND, have all been removed. All gear now carries one stat called "effectiveness" or EFF for short. Increases damage dealt by magic and physical,

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I'm actually okay with this. Replace str/dex/int with attack power, considering that's all that it is anyway.

Very happy to hear this, feeling pressured to use Str accessories while tanking never felt right to me.

I'm just going to assume until 3.2, that Strength will be made into another Det/SS modifier on tanks and Vit will be 1:1 with AP like the main stat is on other jobs. Until then, nothing lost and not a whole lot gained. I'm hoping we don't end up with another Str x Dex x Vit argument again with something convoluted like 2:1 (Vit:AP) and 4:1 (Str:AP) on tanks.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

After all the pissing and moaning about Gordias, and then these changes, I fully expect the bosses in Midas to hit like freight trains. Kinda exciting really.

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As someone who enjoys playing a healer, I agree. It will be exciting (and fun!)

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Grind like the wind for what reason? There's been plenty of time to acquire multiple sets of eso gear. I have a complete collection of gordian/eso slaying accessories and still had eso to spare for more things. Hell, the eso cap is being removed anyway so....What?

That and Midas is being released and with new accessories too on top of the uncapped eso things. A good tank should have VIT and STR sets already ANYWAY. I used crafted accessories early on and still rolled on as much vit AND str stuff as I could lol.

There's no excuse.

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Thats just how they are putting it. Their words, not mine.

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Originally Posted by Tyrio86

They said it on the livestream. Fell Cleave will be nerfed to 300

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Welcome to our world. Monks Tornado kick was rumored to be 500 but they reduced it to 320. Sure its 20 more but we dont use it much.

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Originally Posted by Tyrio86

They said it on the livestream. Fell Cleave will be nerfed to 300

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I heard no exact number, and kind of doubt this would be viable. The only advantage it'd have over Inner Beast dps-wise would then be 10% crit, as IB already ignores Defiance's damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Tyrio86

They said it on the livestream. Fell Cleave will be nerfed to 300

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Stop spreading that rumor. Literally no one said anything about any WAR nerfs. i was watching the entire stream and went over the google doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...qMvNeSmPg/edit

Provide a source instead of spreading hearsay.

Ok so I just want to get this right because I just read some of the live letter so I play as a str drk. So are you telling me that I can no longer play a str tank anymore. I'm sorry but I don't agree with these changes at all. I have never had a problem str tanking why should I be punished because ppl cant tank. This is a MMO which means for me to play as I want this vit thing feels like a punishment.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

Ok so I just want to get this right because I just read some of the live letter so I play as a str drk. So are you telling me that I can no longer play a str tank anymore. I'm sorry but I don't agree with these changes at all. I have never had a problem str tanking why should I be punished because ppl cant tank. This is a MMO which means for me to play as I want this vit thing feels like a punishment.

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How are you being punished? Now building VIT gives you extra damage, the only thing that should really change is that you can now roll need on the gear you use rather than fighting DPS for it. On top of that, you can feel a bit safer with a larger health pool (in case the healer is falling behind). They are doing it so tanks no longer have to fight between 2 main stats and can just focus on the single stat instead.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

I can understand the disappointment, but bear in mind we're the only job that ever had any choice in the first place. You didn't see Dragoons swapping between Crit and SkS sets based on encounters, or Monks having Vit for one fight or Str for another. Every other class got away with one gear set for ALL content. They don't seem to like choice or personal preference in classes in FF.

We'll still get to tailor our damage out/in via choice of how often we stance swap into DPS at least. And let's face it, our choice of gear wasnt really THAT much of a choice - it was strength all the way unless healers whined. At least with this change we'll see our health pools rising steadily as we get better gear.

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I have to say I agree with you I feel like having to put on vit accessories as a punishment I not once as a War and Drk ever had a problem using str accessories. This is a MMO I thought being in an MMO is that I can play as a I want and be different.

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

Snipe

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I'm sorry but that is a punishment this a MMO I should be able to play as I want you said "Now building Vit gives me extra Dmg" do you even know how to tank bro your a tank dmg shouldn't matter that much. your ability to mitigate hate and knowing when to use your cooldowns is how your supposed to tank. Not trying to act like a dps and worry about your dps. Then you may ask why do I use dps accessories that's smiple to be different to show ppl you don't have to follow the main stream of everyone. If a healer falls behind that isn't and SHOULDNT be my fault its theres.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

Then you may ask why do I use dps accessories that's smiple to be different to show ppl you don't have to follow the main stream of everyone.

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Not sure if this is a troll or not, but I'll bite.

You do know that STR is the mainstream right now? You're not being different, you're doing what everyone else is doing to be more efficient. Come 3.2 Fending will most likely be the most efficient option. The whole reason people took slaying in the first place was because the HP was unneeded and the damage from slaying ended up reducing overall damage even more. Feel free to keep using Slaying, to "play how you want" and "be different," but don't complain when people chastise you for using the wrong accessories. Would you use INT accessories on a healer just to "be different?"

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

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Pretty sure 90% of tanks are using at least 3 slaying accessories right now, so I fail to see how you are standing out. I also never said a healer being behind is your fault, I'm just stating that it's an extra cushion in case they do fall behind (and a free cushion at that). I feel like you are going to be the person who keeps slaying accessories at the cost of both extra HP and damage.

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

Pretty sure 90% of tanks are using at least 3 slaying accessories right now, so I fail to see how you are standing out. I also never said a healer being behind is your fault, I'm just stating that it's an extra cushion in case they do fall behind (and a free cushion at that). I feel like you are going to be the person who keeps slaying accessories at the cost of both extra HP and damage.

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yeah I know a lot of ppl are doing what I just said but like I said you would think for a tank you need vit accessories and I use str that's why I say be different and I constantly hear healers complain about tanks dieing because they don't have a lot of hp I fail to see the problem there I use str accessories and never had a problem tanking I can mitigate dmg just fine str tanking its not my fault they fail to do there job.

I'm full STR tank I enjoy the challenge of sacrificing my "tankiness" to output DPS that is MY choice. Honestly annoyed now that I am forced to play VIT because a bunch of crybabies have to complain.

Just nerf the shit out of all tanks at this point too. Make every skill "enhance enmity" and do only 50 potency. Cause to know we needz to hold hate and take hits. Make our CDs make us damn near invincible with out 45000k hp pools everyone thinks is required for fights. Please just break the classes more. GG!!!!

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Originally Posted by Kaisinel

I'm full STR tank I enjoy the challenge of sacrificing my "tankiness" to output DPS that is MY choice. Honestly annoyed now that I am forced to play VIT because a bunch of crybabies have to complain.

Just nerf the shit out of all tanks at this point too. Make every skill "enhance enmity" and do only 50 potency. Cause to know we needz to hold hate and take hits. Make our CDs make us damn near invincible with out 45000k hp pools everyone thinks is required for fights. Please just break the classes more. GG!!!!

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LOL, they'll never please anyone. I love how you call an entire group of the community "crybabies" in a post where you are essentially bawling.

Here's the thing: The STR vs. VIT debate has been perhaps one of the biggest sources of toxicity in this game's tanking meta if not the entire community. Now all of that venom is going away, yet people such as yourself are still clinging to it. Who cares if its not as EDGEY anymore cause you aren't pulling 10 mobs with 16K HP and walking away? Now it just means you can pull 15 mobs and do the same thing.

It is EXTREMELY likely that after the tickle-me-tank-busters of A1-4S and the STR meta/tank-stance-less-meta of 3.0-3.1, combined with these changes, that bosses in Midas and probably in 3.2 in general are going to hit much harder.

What challenge are you referring to here? The idea that you have to click different gear onto your character sheet? Mad skillz yo. Or perhaps its that you had to rotate cooldowns? Um, all good tanks do that whether they're in STR or VIT.

The mechanics of how to play PLD, WAR, or DRK are the same regardless of whether they are STR or VIT spec. It makes zero difference. All it means is you're dealing more damage because of gear. Saying that it is a challenge to sacrifice VIT for STR is woefully hypocritical when people have established for ages now that that "sacrifice" does not increase the damage you take or make you any harder to heal. You're not sacrificing much of anything at all, in fact you're just giving yourself a freebie. STR tanking is EASIER. Its the same illusion of difficulty that beating FFVIII without leveling up had. Sure you were really low level but the mechanics of the game actually made it WAY easier to play through and, frankly, break, in that way. Tanking out of tank stance is another animal entirely, as that actually DOES increase the damage you take (well, not if you're a WAR, but it does rob you of IB and EQ healing), and also hurts your enmity generation. But going full STR instead of VIT? That is not that huge of an accomplishment, or challenge.

On that note, probably the only way they'll break aggressive tanking playstyles is if they lock you into a stance upon engaging mobs/bosses. Which will absolutely never happen because then tank-swaps would be extremely cumbersome to implement.

This won't fucking break anything by itself. PLD/WAR/DRK will still have the same rotations and relative damage caps barring some other adjustments that have nothing to do with the STR/VIT thing. It won't change the way you play your job, at all in the slightest. MAYBE the numbers on the screen will be a few hundred points smaller (but that isn't even confirmed one way or another). Who the hell cares? You're still playing your job the same so you're still pushing the job's DPS ceiling (right?) just as you always would. Even Xeno and Layla would tell you to gtfo and play DPS if the damage output of tanking is the sole attraction for you.

This change does not change the way we play our jobs. It just makes it so that we all have a uniform relative DPS ceiling and nobody will be able shit on eachother for their choice in gear anymore, and the only indication of skill will be the knowledge and expertise you have at your job, as it fucking should be. Anyone who believes otherwise, IMO, needs to reevaluate their reasons for tanking and/or re-roll.

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Originally Posted by yondaimeflash

yeah I know a lot of ppl are doing what I just said but like I said you would think for a tank you need vit accessories and I use str that's why I say be different and I constantly hear healers complain about tanks dieing because they don't have a lot of hp I fail to see the problem there I use str accessories and never had a problem tanking I can mitigate dmg just fine str tanking its not my fault they fail to do there job.

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I have a feeling you are one of the STR tanks that forgets tank stance on massive AoE pulls and forgets CDs for tank busters. Otherwise no healer would be complaining.

Either way, in a few weeks STR tanks and VIT tanks will be dinosaurs, there will only be good tanks doing their jobs and outputting whatever the maximum DPS is, and bad tanks doing neither of those things, and we won't be getting lost in the haze of bullshit of all this "oh well he/she was wearing xyz accessories blah blah blah herp-derp-this-that-the-other lolololol wut a scrub", and no variances in STR vs. VIT will be masking poor play. So all you truly bad tanks out there right now, whether you're in STR or VIT, you're about to get exposed.

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Originally Posted by Kaisinel

I'm full STR tank I enjoy the challenge of sacrificing my "tankiness" to output DPS that is MY choice. Honestly annoyed now that I am forced to play VIT because a bunch of crybabies have to complain.

Just nerf the shit out of all tanks at this point too. Make every skill "enhance enmity" and do only 50 potency. Cause to know we needz to hold hate and take hits. Make our CDs make us damn near invincible with out 45000k hp pools everyone thinks is required for fights. Please just break the classes more. GG!!!!

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Thank YOU! that's what ive been saying this whole time. Thanks you are awesome.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Snip [/I]

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Sorry to disappoint you but no I don't forget to have grit on and darkness and the occasional Blood weapon when I need to I know how to tank and not once have I ever had a healer complain ive in fact been given compliments on my Str tanking and holding big groups of Aoe's pulls