Materia Changes in 3.2:

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Fun yet sad fact:

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Another fun fact: Crafting is ultimately a self defeating grind.

Lets think about it: what do we need gil for?
Mounts (optional)
Housing (optional)
Raid food. (not sure how much gil is needed for that as I don't raid)
Repair costs are close to nonexistent.

The only time I ever needed gil in larger quantities was when I wanted to craft something or for leveling them crafters if I was too lazy to farm stuff myself.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

EDIT: Sorry, it can actually be far worse than now; if a set is found to work better on certain fights, and another set with a different fight, you'll be required to have a set for every fight you intend to run. Imagine having to meld 4 sets for Alexander, one for each floor, and a set for each EX Primal. And yes, people would demand this...

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I would... (ducks) actually be ok w/ this. I also realize I'm in the minority as well and it will never happen.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Another fun fact: Crafting is ultimately a self defeating grind.

Lets think about it: what do we need gil for?
Mounts (optional)
Housing (optional)
Raid food. (not sure how much gil is needed for that as I don't raid)
Repair costs are close to nonexistent.

The only time I ever needed gil in larger quantities was when I wanted to craft something or for leveling them crafters if I was too lazy to farm stuff myself.

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Like a friend of mine says "Gil in this game is only a token of a successful crafter." There is no real use for it currently outside of food on meds.

I do however spend about 300-400k a week in food for raiding since I opted to not specialize in Culinary.

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Originally Posted by PandaPause

I do however spend about 300-400k a week in food for raiding since I opted to not specialize in Culinary.

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Ouch. That's a lot of gil... Oo

I wish they would allocate a stat to a specific craft that can actually craft them similar to glamor.
Blacksmith>STR materia
Armorer>Vit materia
Leather>Dex materia
Carp> Crit materia?
Weaver> Mind Materia and Piety Materia
Alchemist> Intelligence materia and Piety Materia
Goldsmith> Determination Materia
Culinarian> Accuracy Materia

lvl10> tier 1 materia
lvl20> tier 2 materia
lvl30> tier 3 materia
lvl40> tier 4 materia
lvl50> tier 5 materia

The idea is to find a way to easily increase supply, this would easily increase supply. People might cry that crafters are going to be rich again but seriously... It wouldn't be any worse that glamor prisms...? They obviously could also make them a poetic/law/eso/seals/ reward for specific tiers so noncrafters can't complain.

There's alot of ways to make materia easier though... They could just make the % higher, I mean jebus. The %'s are somewhat silly.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Another fun fact: Crafting is ultimately a self defeating grind.

Lets think about it: what do we need gil for?
Mounts (optional)
Housing (optional)
Raid food. (not sure how much gil is needed for that as I don't raid)
Repair costs are close to nonexistent.

The only time I ever needed gil in larger quantities was when I wanted to craft something or for leveling them crafters if I was too lazy to farm stuff myself.

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You forgot Relic and "first day" glamours

I don't think I've ever rolled my eyes more at a single thread.

"I'm too lazy to work for something so I should just be handed things that the people who put in the time and effort get."

Or "I hate crafters! How dare they pump millions of gil and hundreds of hours into leveling and gearing and expect to make that back?! They should all give me things for free because I'm too lazy to craft myself!"

Get over yourselves. You don't get the rewards without the work. Learn how incentives work. This isn't a single player game with console commands.

Just grind out your materia and deal with it. You put way more time and effort into bitching about it than it would actually take to get it.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

"I'm too lazy to work for something so I should just be handed things that the people who put in the time and effort get."

Or "I hate crafters! How dare they pump millions of gil and hundreds of hours into leveling and gearing and expect to make that back?! They should all give me things for free because I'm too lazy to craft myself!"

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I think my favorite thing about this entire thread is that since 2.0 crafters and gatherer's have been required to meld (and not only meld, but OVERMELD) their gear in order to make the best/gather the best stuff. They had to do those grind parties in crafting/gathering gear in order to get it, or spend loads of money on them from others who had done it.

But now that it is possible that battle classes might have to meld their gear. OH MAH GAWD CATASTROPHE!

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

I don't think I've ever rolled my eyes more at a single thread.

"I'm too lazy to work for something so I should just be handed things that the people who put in the time and effort get."

Or "I hate crafters! How dare they pump millions of gil and hundreds of hours into leveling and gearing and expect to make that back?! They should all give me things for free because I'm too lazy to craft myself!"

Get over yourselves. You don't get the rewards without the work. Learn how incentives work. This isn't a single player game with console commands.

Just grind out your materia and deal with it. You put way more time and effort into bitching about it than it would actually take to get it.

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I play the game for fun, that's just how it is. I'm not looking for incentives to play the game, if it's fun content I'll jump on it, if all there is for me is a grind and unfunny activities (Diadem), then I'll end up leaving. I'm playing a subscription based MMO, not a shitty Korean grind fest. Hell, I've been playing Monster Hunter Online by Tencent, one of the most awful companies related to gaming on this planet and it's a Chinese MMO at that, and it's less grindy than FFXIV. They don't even let you grind actually, as you have a limited amount of times you can hunt per day, even if you pay.

You literally stated that this was work, most people aren't interested. Now, if they fix the Diadem I'll have no problem with it but exploration is getting fixed in 3.3 and the material system is being implemented in 3.3. Let me spell it out for you, right now I have my gear and I'm done, if I want to progress further I have to put effort into content that requires effort and not a mindless grind. In 3.2 once I have my gear, I'm still not done I have to work for something that isn't beneficial to my gameplay is any form. Content is going to balanced with this materia in mind, don't kid yourself thinking it will be a flat bonus. I'd be more than fine if the materia had interesting stats, but as soon as that's brought up people here flock to "B-But balance", would you people prefer a flat grind that makes your experience worse with no benefit to you?

The question is, how does this make my experience better? Or rather, is that its intention? No, it's a way to keep you grinding so you'll stay subscribed for longer.

They can't balance content with the idea that everyone will have melded gear, because of all the combinations of possible melds - even assuming you kept yourself restricted to the things beneficial to your class. Main Stat, Accuracy, Skill/Spell Speed, Determination, Critical Strike.

They cannot just assume everyone will meld for one/two specific stats, because then if they balance around that they will be forcing people to meld around that particular stat (counter productive.)

So I, do in fact, believe that they won't balance the content around having a few dozen points allocated in different areas. Because they can't - unlike in crafting/gathering where there are only two/three stats that ALL crafters and gatherers use. They can easily say "Ok to make/gather this, you need XXX craftsmanship/Gathering." They can't do that for battle jobs.

So if you don't want to meld your gear, don't.

Because the battle system cannot be balanced assuming that someone melded in a particular way. It cannot be, because they want the opposite of forcing everyone to meld the same. That's why determination took that nerf bat to the face in 2.x

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Originally Posted by Ravnika

They can't balance content with the idea that everyone will have melded gear, because of all the combinations of possible melds - even assuming you kept yourself restricted to the things beneficial to your class. Main Stat, Accuracy, Skill/Spell Speed, Determination, Critical Strike.

They cannot just assume everyone will meld for one/two specific stats, because then if they balance around that they will be forcing people to meld around that particular stat (counter productive.)

So I, do in fact, believe that they won't balance the content around having a few dozen points allocated in different areas. Because they can't - unlike in crafting/gathering where there are only two/three stats that ALL crafters and gatherers use. They can easily say "Ok to make/gather this, you need XXX craftsmanship/Gathering." They can't do that for battle jobs.

So if you don't want to meld your gear, don't.

Because the battle system cannot be balanced assuming that someone melded in a particular way. It cannot be, because they want the opposite of forcing everyone to meld the same. That's why determination took that nerf bat to the face in 2.x

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It doesn't have to be balanced in the perfect BiS manner, just with any possible combination in mind. No one is going to have the worst melds possible, there's likely to be two sets which is BiS, and a "A little worse, but cheaper" melds like it was for the Novus. I could argue they wouldn't Savage with players having i200 gear due to players not having access to that for quite sometime, but... they did just that. Regardless of that, you've disregarding the important question in how this actually improves the experience of a player in anyway. A grind is a degradation in enjoyment, it's not even glamour as the Anima weapons are, nothing but a grind for points on your gear that won't change anything other than the points you push out.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Regardless of that, you've disregarding the important question in how this actually improves the experience of a player in anyway.

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I like the idea of having a way to continue improving a piece of gear I have outside of just "Hey I got this better item, now to switch it out." I loved that I could continue to improve my relic in ARR without having to hope for a drop from other content. Now that I can do that with gear I'm all for it. It takes some RNG out of the improvement process. Something you can slowly work toward knowing you will get it - not running and running and running and not ever getting an upgrade because RNGod hates the color of underwear your decided to wear that day two months ago.

I like some RNG, but I also like being given an option to improve my gear that has no RNG (and that isn't just "Hey I bought a new shirt. Time to trade it for seals/stuff it in the retainer in case I want to glamour it later".) As far as I'm aware, you won't be able to overmeld the battle gear, so that RNG is a non-factor.

A grind is only a detriment to enjoyment if you are focusing soley on the fact that you are grinding/you are only doing the grind.

For example, I didn't/don't see any of the crystal farming in FATES for the new relic quest to be a grind/detriment to my enjoyment because I can do it on any class I want. I am therefore using this golden opportunity to level up other jobs that have been gathering dust at <60. Other players aren't doing that, soley doing it on the one job at 60 so it seems like a grind to them.

The "unidentified" grind I don't see as a grind either, because I'm doing bits and pieces all over the place (roulettes of old content which I'm so glad I get to run again with a bonus of being able to use the stuff I get out of it, finally repping up the beast tribe quests that I've been wanting to do but the mount just wasn't enough incentive, leveling other crafters to help my FC mates.) I'm literally just playing the game and getting progression toward my relic stages.

I find the problem most people have is that they tunnel vision into "NEED THIS DONE ASAP, TO DO THAT I NEED TO GRIND OUT ALEX XXX/DO XXX BEAST TRIBE/XXX HUNTS" and it is that mindset that is a detriment to the enjoyment of a game.

So there is my answer to how this "grind" improves my personal experience of the game, and from my standpoint, it's a huge improvement.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

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I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible for you.

1.) Yes, it is work. Some people like having goals to work for and it is a reward for people with that mindset. If you're not willing to do it, that option isn't for you. Just deal.

2.) The kind of content you and your demographic will be doing WILL NOT be tuned for melded gear. You won't have to worry about it for your expert roulette and RPing. Dungeons are scaled for the lowest common denominator. Again, the option isn't for you.

Melding gear will have 0 impact on those that don't min/max and raid. If it doesn't apply to you, why all the salt?

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Originally Posted by Ravnika

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I just wrote a wall of text and ended up closing my tab, dammit. Well I'll TL;DR it.

With 3.2 we're going to have the ability to "upgrade" the gear, but in a very linear way that isn't interesting and it still doesn't implement what players have been asking for, horizontal progression and meaningful stats. You said you disliked swapping out gear you just got a few months ago, and I agree, but this won't change that. We're still going to be changing out our gear everything even numbered patch. I don't dislike the concept of materia, but I dislike the implementation. I have no clue if you've played WoW, but you could upgrade, gem, and enchant gear. The first option was trading in a currency to get flat bonus on ilvls and stats which is no different from our materia system, but we have the illusion of choice. In reality if you were to use a useless materia on your gear, or anything that wasn't close to BiS you'd be considered a bad/uninformed player by anyone who inspected you.

Why'd I bring up WoW? In WoW the points you used could be obtained for daily tasks that you would do regardless, similar to the Anima (although I only log in to tend the garden and send out retainers for now, not interested in the Anima). Dungeons and raids, sure you could grind them in a dozen hours but that would be incredibly boring. In FFXIV it's spiritbond or do the Diadem, there isn't even an illusion of choice there as spiritbonding is faster in the Diadem. Now, if Materia was separate from the spoils I could jump in with the mindset "Hey, at least I'm working towards my Pegasus.", or "I'm making gil with the materials too." but that isn't the case, you're farming for the materia and nothing else. I won't argue that it won't improve your experience as you seem to enjoy "hidden" grinds, but it's not something I'd personally enjoy as I've had it up with everything they've implemented recently being focused on keeping people subscribed for as long as possible and not to have fun. I'll be taking people's advice and likely taking the materia thing very slowly, doing Diadem a few times a week and see how it goes, I don't exactly do anything that would require BiS gear (I really don't do much other than chat with friends in game and babble on these forums awaiting a permanent ban really).

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

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The forum exists for discussion and not a circlejerk about the almighty FFXIV, if something changes that I dislike I'll express that I dislike it. If you don't like my opinion you can ignore it, as my posts are optional and will not affect you in anyway as you've suggested I do with the materia system, or argue against it without resorting to "Deal with it" in a similar manner to Ravnika's posts. I don't exactly like how easy dungeons are, I want content that's a reasonable challenge but not too difficult without a static, which is why I'm glad they're bringing back Extreme primals with Sephirot, and that's obviously not going to be tuned with Tomestones of Transcendence(?) gear in mind. I'm more displeased with the way they implement fan requests, people asked for interesting stats, not more numbers of the boring stats.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I just wrote a wall of text and ended up closing my tab, dammit. Well I'll TL;DR it.

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I've done that before @_@;;

I used to play WoW, but part way through WoTLK everything just imploded for me so I stopped.

I don't mind having to change my gear every couple of months. I do mind that when RNGod finally shines his sparkling godlike eyes of blue and magnificent cheek bones upon me, I get a new chestpiece (for example) - or I just finally get the tomestones - and.... uhm... >_> <_< >_> what now? I don't do super hard-core raiding, I don't have the time/energy/will to do that. I don't really do primals all that much either, for the same reason. I do a bunch of random things all together all the time, depending on my mood. I don't mind that I'm not BiS. If someone tries to belittle me for not having BiS materia, I'll probably just reply, "When my less than perfect materia causes us to wipe, lemme know" and proceed to rock what content I do.

I love my character. I love the mental story and images I have of her, I want materia in her gear for just a pure sense of self satisfaction that my character has glow jewels in her gear (I'd love it if melding the materia in the new gear actually altered the appearance a little, but I doubt that'll happen.) There are probably a lot of people like me who just like gathering dood-dads and progressing in any way they can as they lolly-gag around in a world and story they enjoy (and who maybe stare awkwardly at Ser Aymeric a little TOO much.)

And basically your last few sentences are the point I was trying to make earlier in a more simplistic way.

Express concerns (as you have been doing)? Cool, we can discuss that.

DOOMSAY AND DENOUNCE before seeing what is going to happen (as others tend to do and have)? I do not like you. I do not like your face. Come here so I can stab your eye with a card.

But really, a lot of the systems SE is putting in place is meant to be taken at "work at it as you do" and not "SHOVEL IT INTO YOUR MOUTH UNTIL ALL YOU CAN TASTE IS SALT" pace that so many others are adamant about doing. I hope (and I think) that you will enjoy the materia system a lot more if you do it the way you plan (or "the journey" method, as I like to call it), instead of trying to just put your nose to a grindwheel and hold it until it's a bloody mess of cartilage and tears.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

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You know, this doesn't happen often, but you may have just made me change my mind. I guess I was just so excited for SOME kind of character customization that I didn't stop to think just how pathetic the compromise they made with materia really is. Consider me contrite.

I'm still standing by what I said about people hating on crafters though.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

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Well, I think that's the first time I've seen someone on these forums change their opinion. I don't think anyone "hates" crafters, they're just a little salty that everything costs millions of gil due to SE forcing specializations on everything, or when crafters sell a piece of low level crafted gear for 500% the value of the materials. I think everyone is guilty of thinking at one point in their life that a product was far more costly than it should have been ($200 for extra RAM on a Macbook, really?), it's like that. There's problem someone out there who legitimately hates crafters, but then that's their problem and no one should care.

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Originally Posted by Ravnika

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I usually play multiple games at the same time, so at the "What now?" I go play something else (playing too much FFXIV will give me severe burnout like it did with WoW). I don't think I'll necessarily enjoy running the Diadem, already ran it enough to pay for my split of the house, but it will make it more bearable that's for sure. Just as I don't enjoy capping my Esoterics every week, but having that limit of doing it once per week helps me control any potential burnouts and thus the want to unsubscribe. But in the end, we clearly have different goals. When I feel I've had all the enjoyment out of FFXIV for the week I don't wonder what to do next, I play something else if I'm in the mood to game (still waiting on my MHX import .-.).