Ifrits greatest weapon: Animation Lag

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Originally Posted by Jinko

/facepalm, did you even watch the video ?

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That I did, like I said, you can tell by where everyone ran.

*Herrrderrr gonna run THROUGH the plumes to get to a safe spot*

See that's where your ignorance of the issue shines Scarface.
What you see on the video is whats registering on THAT PLAYERS screen. The players that appear to be "fucking up", are not seeing the same thing on theirs. I've literally watched people drop dead on my screen, that were nowhere near a plume or pool, and comented on vent, only to have 2 other people say they saw that peron somewhere else on their screen, and yet another swear they saw that same person 5 yalms east of anything anyone else saw. You can not judge where another player really is by what you are seeing. That's one of the major issues, you can't even verify that someone doesn't understand where they are supposed to be, and help correct them, because you HAVE NO IDEA where they actually are.
All 8 people can take a screenshot at the same moment, and NO PICTURE will have everyone in the same position. Think that's not true? Try it, we have fraps and compared and it's NEVER synched up.

Don't have fraps? Then maybe this will help you understand. You know that cool thing that happens in the arena, where your timers cool down, and you can spam that action button for another 15-20 seconds and get the "you can not use XXX at this time"? Yeah that's the server being 15-20 seconds off from that client. So when you see a plume or pool on your screen, guess what, that shit has already happened and you just don't know it yet, cuz the server hasn't quite got around to letting you know about it. Make no mistake though, it knows where you were standing 120 frames ago when it "really" happened, and that's what it's going to use to determine whether you dodged it, or got face-raped.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

As much as It's an enjoyable fight, I find it really annoying that they built an encounter based on dodging in a game that suffer of terrible lag and animation locking.

It's like you're fighting against the game itself instead of Ifrit '>.>

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^^^ This so much, Amen...

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Originally Posted by Resty

See that's where your ignorance of the issue shines Scarface.
What you see on the video is whats registering on THAT PLAYERS screen. The players that appear to be "fucking up", are not seeing the same thing on theirs. I've literally watched people drop dead on my screen, that were nowhere near a plume or pool, and comented on vent, only to have 2 other people say they saw that peron somewhere else on their screen, and yet another swear they saw that same person 5 yalms east of anything anyone else saw. You can not judge where another player really is by what you are seeing. That's one of the major issues, you can't even verify that someone doesn't understand where they are supposed to be, and help correct them, because you HAVE NO IDEA where they actually are.
All 8 people can take a screenshot at the same moment, and NO PICTURE will have everyone in the same position. Think that's not true? Try it, we have fraps and compared and it's NEVER synched up.

Don't have fraps? Then maybe this will help you understand. You know that cool thing that happens in the arena, where your timers cool down, and you can spam that action button for another 15-20 seconds and get the "you can not use XXX at this time"? Yeah that's the server being 15-20 seconds off from that client. So when you see a plume or pool on your screen, guess what, that shit has already happened and you just don't know it yet, cuz the server hasn't quite got around to letting you know about it. Make no mistake though, it knows where you were standing 120 frames ago when it "really" happened, and that's what it's going to use to determine whether you dodged it, or got face-raped.

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You have to be bad to run into the middle of the room to avoid plume. That is a fact, don't be mad at me, claiming that they were on the other side of the map is ridiculous, and just untrue.

Simple, lag does not determine win or lose in this fight, it may add in additional layer of difficulty, but it's so easily avoidable if you aren't bad.

Half the fight I don't even move from my spot... Try again, sir.

~Champ

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

This has ZERO to do with server placement. FFXI and FMO had zero problems with server latency between the regions (it's almost a nil difference in response times whether you played in Japan or the west.)

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FFXI also didn't have fights like the Ifrit battle in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

I currently play from Japan -- I don't see this at all. Even back when the majority of the western world was still on dial-up there were equal claims, people were just slow and liked to use any excuse possible as to why they lost claim, even in the NA linkshell I was in 2 people had different stories:

Linkshellmate 1: "It spawned claim D:"
Linkshellmate 2: "Nope, it was up for at least 2 seconds."

Both from Texas. In all the time I've camped HNMs before they were popable, I've seen more people from the west claim than I did the Japanese in total, even before botting became "commonplace"

It's not the server placement, it's poorly optimized servers because it's painfully clear which game has the better response times between the two.

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The answer could be right there in, "I currently play in Japan". Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. FFXI had a lot of time to fix their issues. You're using an example that had many years to be balanced and also doesn't relate to this issue currently. Why? Because a NM spawning is very different than terrain dodging as NMs don't travel from the client to the server then back again. They travel directly to the client. This was an issue very early on in FFXI's life where the NMs would always pop first for JP players and a few seconds later for NA resulting in NA rarely getting claim. This was fixed by having the NMs become unable to be claimed for a certain amount of seconds overall when they pop. This was also added in FFXIV and the reason why all mobs spawn with a purple name.

You should probably stop trying to make defensive arguments against something you are not in a position to experience.

Also, again to the thread in general I'd like to repeat that waiting to use weaponskills because of the animation lock is not a tactic against ifrit. It's a way around poor battle mechanics. Cannot stress that enough.

The problem lies in SE's network infrastructure; how every facet of the game is server sided (worst idea for an online game ever), and how the network calculates and distributes movement and position data. The reason this problem has persisted since launch and why they've said very little about it, is because fixing it would require creating a new infrastructure from the ground up, and that simply isn't going to happen. You can "optimize" the current system all you want, but this problem is here to stay.

The reason why we spread wide is in case we get the double fire effect. If we stayed clumped up and got the double fire after a teleport, we would have to continue running and wouldn't be able to run any melee back in to start dpsing since the fire would be right at Ifrit. Now on the other hand, if we got double fire while we were in stride, the people who didn't have the fire can break off instantly and start attacking Ifrit.

The method is all about maximizing DPS with the 15 second intervals.

Regardless though, you're completely missing the point of the video. I was not standing in the ground effect, I was idle for quite some time until the explosion happened; then I was hit by said ground effect. There was no "running through plumes" that you claim.

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Originally Posted by Scarface

Simple, lag does not determine win or lose in this fight, it may add in additional layer of difficulty, but it's so easily avoidable if you aren't bad.

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This is not simple lag though as people are trying to hammer into your hard head, its like trying to play a game with a blindfold on, because half the stuff that is happening on your screen actually happened several seconds ago and that's a massive thing in a fight like this.

People need to stop defending everything Square does. I am all for difficult boss fights but some of this fight is artificial difficulty.

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You have to be bad to run into the middle of the room to avoid plume. That is a fact, don't be mad at me, claiming that they were on the other side of the map is ridiculous, and just untrue.

Simple, lag does not determine win or lose in this fight, it may add in additional layer of difficulty, but it's so easily avoidable if you aren't bad.

Half the fight I don't even move from my spot... Try again, sir.

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And yet you still haven't beat him, even though you're so pro that the issues don't affect your success.

By the way math wizard, if there is a 15 second client/server loop, how far can a person travel across the arena during that time, resulting in a conflict of actual and displayed postion. Well I'd say back and forth about twice. Even a 5 second lagtime will skew the players actual position to a margin of error of about 1/2 the possible arena area around him.
YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE WHAT A PLAYER WAS DOING BY WHAT YOU SEE ON YOUR OR ANYONE ELSE'S SCREEN AT THE PRESENT TIME.
For all you know that player DC'd 15 seconds ago, or is in the safe zone on his screen. That path he is running could have been a movement from 5-20 seconds earlier unrelated to the event on the screen totally.
You can sit there posting "HURHUR" all day long, it does not negate the 1000 other people it's affecting.

Try again sir....

I understand animation lag and server latency.

I still don't think where the character in the video stood is a safe place to stand by any means. I have never (under any condition) not been hit in that area. The damage seems to be all the way to the very, very, very edge of those animations, so only the slightly larger cracks seem safe to stand in to me.

Where your teammates are standing (and where they run through) is safe. You should have aimed for there. You would have made it, in my opinion. It's sad the animation is so misleading as to where the damage will hit and also the lag can be quite unbearable (especially after Hellfire).

/postbefore100peopletellmeimanidiot

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Originally Posted by Scarface

You have to be bad to run into the middle of the room to avoid plume. That is a fact, don't be mad at me, claiming that they were on the other side of the map is ridiculous, and just untrue.

Simple, lag does not determine win or lose in this fight, it may add in additional layer of difficulty, but it's so easily avoidable if you aren't bad.

Half the fight I don't even move from my spot... Try again, sir.

~Champ

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Something tells me you haven't made it past Hellfire. Sometimes based on placement in his last phase you'll have no choice even near Ifrit to go to a spot such as the one in the video. It's hit or miss for me when this happens. I have avoided it by standing in a similar spot as many times as I've been hit.

you can actually stand in the center of those cracks between plumes...prob not the best odds of hitting that spot. but it is a safe spot during the attack.

But im so glad ppl are finally bringing this up. Some seem to have issues with it more then others in my ls. However i have been hit at some mind blowing distances.

The fight is fun ...but when you have to worry about human errors and server side errors...it make this excellent content seem to stressful to be worth it.

Hi, Fuma.

Well, in several scenarios I have been standing where this Lalafell stops when the plumes pop up. I think "Oh good. I don't need to move. I'll wait it out." Then I get killed. I've died in that little crack many, many times. So if it is safe at all, it's very particular about exactly where you stop.

I showed my wife the video and asked "Would you expect to be safe in this spot?" It was completely paused, so she had no reference of when/where the animation lagged. She said "Oh, no. I wouldn't stop there. I'd pop Sentinel or die, probably." So maybe it's just our experience or perception - but those tiny tiny cracks are not a good example of server lag.

Show me a video of running from center of plume to about 3 Ifrit's lengths away and still getting hit and I'll be on board with your example. Haha. Seriously, I'm pretty sure that's happened to most of us who are doing this fight a lot. Like I said, I agree with you, OP, just not the best example I would use.

Animation lag still makes me sad :'(

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Originally Posted by Medura

The video is like that because he got a bad computer :/

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Do everyone a favor here and just shut up.

You're making yourself look like a fool, animation lock 100% EXISTS IN THIS GAME I don't give a damn what computer you're on. How hard is that to understand.

Hola Shai ...lmao i didnt even realize it was your post i was replying to!


Anyways yea i would not stop there if there were better options. But i have been able to get away with it before. The better spot similar to that is when 3 plums are kinda butted together...you can stand it the misshapen triangle that it forms. to boot have a little more room for player error also.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

The answer could be right there in, "I currently play in Japan". Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

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Actually, if you read my other posts you'd know I stated I played their MMOs in both Japan and America and I haven't seen a difference in response times. However currently, I play XI from Japan.

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This was fixed by having the NMs become unable to be claimed for a certain amount of seconds overall when they pop.

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You've kind of twisted facts here -- This was implemented specifically to try combat automated claims, i.e bots.

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You're using an example that had many years to be balanced and also doesn't relate to this issue currently.

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Actually, this wasn't a problem even in 2003. The only server related issues they had in 2002 was stability, not latency related. This is why we were given a free period as well as refunds due to how unstable the servers were. Also, FMO was released 3 yearsish after FFXI it also didn't have the latency issue FFXIV does, why? Neither game used a serverside interface with poorly optimized servers.

Jennestia have you fought Ifrit?

now i have only experienced the hypermode ifrit fight to around the 50% hp mark. But i cant count how many times i have been hit by eruption when i was (at least on my screen) so far out of its area it's actually funny.

but sometimes the pendulum swings the other way, i had a herpaderp moment when it came to dodging dash, ifrit shot right through me and no damage. But yea, until the server side fixes are done and this updating latency can be hashed out the greatest danger is the game client and server not agreeing on where a character is positoned in relation to attack areas.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

Jennestia have you fought Ifrit?

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Yep. The problem doesn't come from the fact the servers are in Japan like it's being stated, the problem exists because using a serverside interface with poorly optimized servers = the problem. I however haven't experienced "horrible" animation lock that it would hinder my ability to perform in this fight -- The interface delay is what hindered me most.

How far into the Ifrit fight have you been?

Btw its not shown in this video but sometimes when Ifrit does that Void zone WS you can see him "ready" it for 3-4 seconds before the zones appear on the ground. I have a feeling SE thought we'd have more time to avoid them honestly than what the game is giving us.

Oh, if Ifrit doesn't do his charge move the void zones will appear in the same spots (their position seems dependant on Ifrits X/Y/Z instead of player positions).

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

How far into the Ifrit fight have you been?

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The attempt I've done was around ~47% ish before the interface no longer kept up with what was actually happening.

oh, thats probably why you haven't noticed the animation lock.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Btw its not shown in this video but sometimes when Ifrit does that Void zone WS you can see him "ready" it for 3-4 seconds before the zones appear on the ground. I have a feeling SE thought we'd have more time to avoid them honestly than what the game is giving us.

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I get that feeling aswell.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Actually, if you read my other posts you'd know I stated I played their MMOs in both Japan and America and I haven't seen a difference in response times. However currently, I play XI from Japan.

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Again, that is XI. Which has totally different interfaces and battlefields that needs to be worked on and optimized.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

You've kind of twisted facts here -- This was implemented specifically to try combat automated claims, i.e bots.

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Not at all twisted. Two birds with one stone here. You were stunned if you claimed too quickly. This part was to prevent botting, but also due to the distance between servers. You must have lived under a rock during your early FFXI experience when it came to NM claiming against JP. Bots or not, they'd still show up seconds before NA. So, if the JP were claim botting as well they'd most likely get a 100% claim.

Even if you take botting out of this equation the same problems apply. It's a claim issue due to a slower response to the client when in a further region from the server. There are regional servers for a reason in every other MMO. While I do not exactly like to perpetuate the need for regional servers, in fact I believe the issues currently could be helped before that will happen, that is a still a factor they may have to look into if there isn't a viable enough solution to fix the problem.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Actually, this wasn't a problem even in 2003. The only server related issues they had in 2002 was stability, not latency related. This is why we were given a free period as well as refunds due to how unstable the servers were. Also, FMO was released 3 yearsish after FFXI it also didn't have the latency issue FFXIV does, why? Neither game used a serverside interface with poorly optimized servers.

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This doesn't have anything to do with server side interfacing, don't you know? Unless you mean that the information from all collective PCs in the area are affecting latency due to all of the checks needed and being sent to and fro. Then yes, that would be a safe assumption, but as far as movement goes... this is something every MMO has implemented. Client => Server => Client. What you're reffering to is a separate issue entirely. One that also need to be changed. However, the movement needs to use these checks in order to display properly.

The problem here is Ifrit readying a terrain attack or dash and the response between the client and server not syncing up properly. The interface COULD indirectly fix this, that is true, but if they want to hold onto that interface they are going to have to make some expensive upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

/facepalm, did you even watch the video ?

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hahaha dont worry, everyone else on the planet did and knows server location and your PC has nothing to do with these types of problems.
these lag problems were even worse when the game was first launched. right after launch SE promised to ease some of the server lag issues as much as they could as soon as they could but that it would not be resolved over night.
this is SEs problem and its a massive one. a lot of PS3 only people are not used to action delay lag and position lag... imagine how the response might be to these people. this is something that should definitely be fixed by then

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Not at all twisted. Two birds with one stone here. You were stunned if you claimed too quickly. This part was to prevent botting, but also due to the distance between servers. You must have lived under a rock during your early FFXI experience when it came to NM claiming against JP. Bots or not, they'd still show up seconds before NA. So, if the JP were claim botting as well they'd most likely get a 100% claim.

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i played FFXI from the start of ToAU until abbysea was released and i could never agree with people who claimed that
#1 JP players are just naturally the superior nazi race of video games and that my white ass will never be as good as any JP player.
#2 JP players had any server advantage or botted more often or had any claim advantages.

id always just stay quiet when my LSs got all pissed because they lost claim, but there were times when our uber elite claimers didnt notice the mob for a second or two. it was their fault not our rival LSs.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

i played FFXI from the start of ToAU until abbysea was released and i could never agree with people who claimed that
#1 JP players are just naturally the superior nazi race of video games and that my white ass will never be as good as any JP player.
#2 JP players had any server advantage or botted more often or had any claim advantages.

id always just stay quiet when my LSs got all pissed because they lost claim, but there were times when our uber elite claimers didnt notice the mob for a second or two. it was their fault not our rival LSs.

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This problem and change happened before you started playing. Irrelevant.

Yup! I'm sure everyone has experienced animation lag. It wouldn't be as bad it the actions didn't lock up also. During battle where there's a lot going on I would press a crucial action to save my butt but it doesn't go off. Instead I would get "... can not be used" x6-8. Also when i would try to raise someone, I would either need to put away my weapon or take it out. There seems to be a bug with actions atm and its killing me. Literally

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Originally Posted by Fuma-Kotaro

Hola Shai ...lmao i didnt even realize it was your post i was replying to!


Anyways yea i would not stop there if there were better options. But i have been able to get away with it before. The better spot similar to that is when 3 plums are kinda butted together...you can stand it the misshapen triangle that it forms. to boot have a little more room for player error also.

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Agree. That one is fickle, too, which led me to believe hat the range of the damage extends the floor animation and goes into the little "wavey lines" (for lack of better word) but I hit that one without much problem. I pretty much know before I even try to move if I'm going to "make it" or not. I'm just getting used to the disconnect from what's on the screen to what will actually happen.

Heh, was ready to get on board with the animation lag thread.. then actually watched the video. That's not even animation lag, you were in a bad spot. The voids go slightly outside the lava hitbox to the 'heat wave' spots.

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Originally Posted by Celeras

Heh, was ready to get on board with the animation lag thread.. then actually watched the video. That's not even animation lag, you were in a bad spot. The voids go slightly outside the lava hitbox to the 'heat wave' spots.

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thats what i thought too.
but as i watched doctor mogs streaming video of the fight i kept noticing people getting hurt by the explosions no matter where they were. i thought it was strange but no one in the video talked about it.

lol wtf did you expect? a BC quality raid? rofl

2.0 Should probably fix this if they are planning to implement new servers.

SE add some over here in NA dang it!

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

2.0 Should probably fix this if they are planning to implement new servers.

SE add some over here in NA dang it!

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Having servers in NA would do absolutely nothing -- They said (yet again) it was basically the current servers themselves that are shoddy, not the location.

I just do not understand!! I just cannot avoid the red-colored Ogre's elbow skill attack at all (Into the Dark). I was totally sure I moved away the instant that ogre casts its attack skill. Yet I got hit.
I went Ifrit hunting just now. I cannot "out-run" Ifrit's ground-quake attacks too. My japanese friends were all doing fine, while on the other hand, I kept on dying, rarely I survived. It's humiliating! I will become a burden to my friends if this issue continues. They would definitely dislike me joining their parties if this issue persists!
Please fix it. m(_ _)m

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Originally Posted by Medura

Hmm, i felt no animation lag :o time to buy new computers people? :D

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It may not be the machine itself either. My husband and I built our machines. One difference is the video card. My husband's should actually be better but the game does not like to play nice with him and there are constant animation lags and jumps especially in towns. I think they are paying attention to their preferred card (which I have) and even i get these issues. We also have Fios which gives us amazing speeds and yet lag persists.

Bumping this because I'm having this problem, too. Even on the eruptions, I can be clearly off the cracked surface and get nailed. In fact, I have to be running at the time the surface cracks in order to avoid it, regardless of how far away I get. At this point, it's almost pointless for me to keep trying this quest. Most of the LS I run with don't have this issue, and the few of us that do are a handicap to the team.

I would seriously like to hear from the dev team on this one.

Yes I agree that the Devs not addressing this, or even letting us know that THEY know it's a big problem, is pretty bad.
Is this going to be another Darkhold deal, where they fix with the next big patch, after which no one is going to care about the fight anymore anyway?