Deliverance rant

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It's not really worth waiting 30s+ before you even pull trash.

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I don't wait at all between pulls. I don't HAVE TO. I still make full use of 4 of my CDs every single pull.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So you're taking nearly a full minute between trash pulls for CDs?

The biggest problem is new-to-60 tanks taking advice meant for fully geared tanks. If you are very outgeared by the dps, just focus on holding hate and forget about maxing out dps. If you are geared similarly to the dps, then you can try and squeeze out more damage.

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I agree waiting between trash pulls is terrible, but if anything the more overgeared you are the more you should push dps, not the less.

Also referring back to the post you quoted, thrill is so, so much more valuable in deliverance paired with something like convalescence and foresight than getting an extra 20% out of the up front heaing in almost all situations.

I can't rally recommend anything that poster suggests doing tbh.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Also referring back to the post you quoted, thrill is so, so much more valuable in deliverance paired with something like convalescence and foresight than getting an extra 20% out of the up front heaing in almost all situations.

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It sort of depends, you'll be starting in Defiance anyway so you might as well pop it while you're still in that stance for the extra "healing". Whether that healing will matter or just be overhealing depends on what your healer is doing, but it's not like Thrill disappears when you switch to Deliverance.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

I don't wait at all between pulls. I don't HAVE TO. I still make full use of 4 of my CDs every single pull.

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Ok. ?_?

I don't wait for infuriate to come back, or unchained. Just an opener that solidifies hate and makes deliverance pushes easier. Thrill in defiance gives more health for a heal, so use it and then switch to deliverance, you keep the 20% gain in deliverance and got 5% more health for pushing a button. Stances are ogcd so the switch is miniscule. If you have 20k in defiance thrill heals 4k, 800 more health than deliverance at 16k. It's just hit it, switch stances, that easy.OP spam may be a good means of DPS on trash, I've honestly never parsed it, my DPS in dungeons is always good in my opinion so maybe I'll check it out. As the waiting goes, we know the expert dungeons/Alex so well that you know where the next pull is. Time it, this is xenos aggro opener and its a huge DPS increase.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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I didn't know it snapshotted the hp amount, that's good to know. Popping it right before swapping over sounds very circumstantially appealing, for situations where you want to start pushing damage but berserk/ bb is still on cd(though it also seems excessive assuming they are ready to fire). That's what I love about War and a big part of what makes it seem so strong atm: all their skills have such amazing synergy both with each other and with the concept of tanking aggressively, and they can all be mixed and matched differently based on the situation. I think what a lot of people in threads complaining about War's power overlook, and what this topic highlights, is the player skill needed to really take advantage of that.

I'm sorry, sholdve clarified, I try to run with healers I know. When unchained is falling off they let me drop to about 50% health. I pop equilibrium and thrill and I'm sitting at about 16k (enemies pummeling me while I hit buttons) I feel if I switch to deliverance from defiance, having an excess of deliverance hp is a waste as it is lost, so that's how I use it.

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Originally Posted by Aurius

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Yeah I thought you meant use thrill when you were sitting in defiance, I can definitely get behind using it before deliverance in some situations.

Op spam is huge if you pull big on trash. I SHOULD clarify for any fresh wars out there reading this I'm not saying everyone should go ham on pulls, but once you're comfortable pulling big berserk>bloodlust>decimate>infuriate>op spam>decimate right before berserk drops is huge. pop RI + awareness, vengeance, or even just foresight, though if you pull big vengeance should be up for every pull by the time you've set up aggro and 4 stacks(try to get up 2 while pulling ;> ). This should also be handy in A2s.

1 decimate needs 5 stacks built to throw out. If you have a lot of tp issues with op spam it may seem preferable, but with enough practice you can throw a lot of OP without stopping to recover tp at all. Even with vengeance and raw intuition triple decimate requires you to burn almost all your zerk gcds single targeting. giving up one decimate in exchange for op spam the whole time would be a huge dps increase in comparison.

there are gray areas where there will be one problematic mob where getting up eye *might* be worth it. but that's what being a good warrior is about: being adaptable and flexible and never getting too rigidly stuck in a single rotation to use in all situations.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

I agree waiting between trash pulls is terrible, but if anything the more overgeared you are the more you should push dps, not the less.

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That's what I said, outgeared by the dps means their gear is much better than yours:
undergeared = keep mobs off dps and focus hate
overgeared = push dps

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

I don't wait at all between pulls. I don't HAVE TO. I still make full use of 4 of my CDs every single pull.

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Unless you are doing big pulls, 2 minutes per trash pull is ugh. If you are doing those big trash pulls, then you'll get a whole lot more damage stacking unchained and berserk, and using overpower. Of course you don't get the big e-peen ST number in your chat log, but stuff dies faster.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If you are doing those big trash pulls, then you'll get a whole lot more damage stacking unchained and berserk, and using overpower.

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deliverance is 5% more raw damage and 10% more crit, on top of one more decimate. How exactly is unchained defiance stronger than that? It's not like you suddenly cant use op in deliverance. And no I'm not endorsing the waiting game, but unchained should really only be used as an opener before you zerk at all or if for some reason a pull drags out and you burn through all your other defensive cd's and need to turtle up again.

If you use vengeance near the start of every pull it'll be back up by around the same in the next pull in my experience. With really good dps maybe not, but that's rare in df. And sorry about misunderstanding what you said before, running on not much sleep atm. XD

I dont even need read past the "drk wave" comment to know youre the issue here and not the wars/drks you need to chill out and improve your skills as a healer rather than giving up at the slightest thing that doesnt go your way

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

deliverance is 5% more raw damage and 10% more crit, on top of one more decimate. How exactly is unchained defiance stronger than that? It's not like you suddenly cant use op in deliverance. And no I'm not endorsing the waiting game, but unchained should really only be used as an opener before you zerk at all or if for some reason a pull drags out and you burn through all your other defensive cd's and need to turtle up again.

If you use vengeance near the start of every pull it'll be back up by around the same in the next pull in my experience. With really good dps maybe not, but that's rare in df. And sorry about misunderstanding what you said before, running on not much sleep atm. XD

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8 overpower and a steel cyclone will beat out 3 decimate and single target swings on a huge pull, and staying in defiance you don't have to worry about that bad healer in the DF. If you're doing huge pulls, you should have solid AoE dps in the party. If you're doing small pulls and taking two minutes per pull, then the dps is seriously lacking.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

8 overpower and a steel cyclone will beat out 3 decimate and single target swings on a huge pull, and staying in defiance you don't have to worry about that bad healer in the DF. If you're doing huge pulls, you should have solid AoE dps in the party. If you're doing small pulls and taking two minutes per pull, then the dps is seriously lacking.

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Sorry but the DPS output of WAR with a Triple Decimate while a WHM stun locks + Overpower/Zerk/BB makes mobs literally melt. I love running with friends we go STR build and 100% Deliverance WAR WAR MNK WHM and we finish Fractal/Neverreap in under 9 minutes. It is ridiculously fun.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Sorry but the DPS output of WAR with a Triple Decimate while a WHM stun locks + Overpower/Zerk/BB makes mobs literally melt.

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Please explain me how you do triple Decimate while still using more than 1 Overpower during your Berserk window.

You're both wrong. The most AoE DPS you can get is by building your stacks with a single SE combo + RI + Vengeance, switch to Deliverance, BloodbathIRZerk, double Decimate and spam Overpower till pacified. Staying in Defiance and using Unchained is useless unless you're undergeared or your healer sucks. And doing triple Decimate forces you to use only single target moves during your Zerk phase and 1 more Decimate doesn't outweight 8 Overpowers.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Please explain me how you do triple Decimate while still using more than 1 Overpower during your Berserk window.

You're both wrong. The most AoE DPS you can get is by building your stacks with a single SE combo + RI + Vengeance, switch to Deliverance, BloodbathIRZerk, double Decimate and spam Overpower till pacified. Staying in Defiance and using Unchained is useless unless you're undergeared or your healer sucks. And doing triple Decimate forces you to use only single target moves during your Zerk phase and 1 more Decimate doesn't outweight 8 Overpowers.

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Wouldn't it be better to Vengeance after you are in Deliverance? That way it doesn't suffer the damage penalty and it gains 5%. o-o Just wording order I know, but Vengeance is too damn sexy to pop in Defiance if you're going to be in Deliverance anyways.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Please explain me how you do triple Decimate while still using more than 1 Overpower during your Berserk window.

You're both wrong. The most AoE DPS you can get is by building your stacks with a single SE combo + RI + Vengeance, switch to Deliverance, BloodbathIRZerk, double Decimate and spam Overpower till pacified. Staying in Defiance and using Unchained is useless unless you're undergeared or your healer sucks. And doing triple Decimate forces you to use only single target moves during your Zerk phase and 1 more Decimate doesn't outweight 8 Overpowers.

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Welll uh you don't use Berserk on your first pull soooo.... Gather 4 stacks and refresh Maim before that mob set is finished then when pull next section land a Heavy Swing while moving - WHM Holy stunlocks pack in place - Berserk -> Decimate -> Infuriate -> Decimate -> Raw/Vengence/Maim -> Storm - OP -> Heavy/Maim -> Decimate -> Bloodbath spam a few Overpowers and then WHM pops Esuna for Pac maybe heals** (**but unlikely since you don't lose HP while stuff was stunlocked and you and your other WAR just did the same thing so y'all dealt 5/6 Decimates + a few OPs all while Zerk'd and now have Raw/Venge up anyway) so yeah stuff just melts before it can even touch either Warrior... then you finish anything left with your combos to refill stacks before a boss.

Yes this is speed running custom setup. Just like WP using a WHM/WHM PLD BRD when Holy spammin' was the bes-thing-eva.

No pugs probably won't be able to do it. You can try as a solo WAR in the DF but probably not going to get far without a WHM that gets it and uses Holy. Considering the frequency with which you encounter White Mages that hurdur only heal and forget that they can stunlock stuff or just suck outright - yeah you probably won't have a chance to do this often. If you're using Defiance for enmity... I mean I.. I don't get why? - Deliverance/BB/Overpower is more damage, gives a bigger self-heal, generate plenty of enmity and you can Decimate which is better than a Steel Cyclone. If you're getting hit by 8+ mobs and don't have a WHM to Holy they still will Bene you or a SCH would Lustrate spam so again no reason to Defiance... since neither of those are really going to be effected by bonus Healing and that extra few thousand HP isn't going to vastly change anything. If your Healer is a derpy pug you can always Holmgang and dance to Defiance after a pull and dish to Equilibrium for HP. If you have an AST I will cringe for you.


But yeah if you do go try this each WAR should hit around 2800-3200++ dps in i200 STR gear on 7/8+ mob packs usually.

:3

Grab a WHM buddy, another WAR buddy, and a DPS buddy (DRG is really nice to have in party) and go try it nothing is stopping you.
Make your "daily dungeon" more exciting? Yes-please-hoo.


PS: Dungeon content is a joke. You can clear without a healer (albeit much slower than usual).

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Wouldn't it be better to Vengeance after you are in Deliverance? That way it doesn't suffer the damage penalty and it gains 5%. o-o Just wording order I know, but Vengeance is too damn sexy to pop in Defiance if you're going to be in Deliverance anyways.

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It actually depends on your healer. SCH benefits more from Vengeance up front for the mitigation, AST benefits from it being used a bit later, and WHM benefits from it being used the latest (when stun immunity kicks in). While Vengeance's damage reflect thing is a DPS increase, it's also your biggest mitigation tool, so priority goes to mitigation when you're pulling a butt ton of mobs and your healer is DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Wouldn't it be better to Vengeance after you are in Deliverance? That way it doesn't suffer the damage penalty and it gains 5%. o-o Just wording order I know, but Vengeance is too damn sexy to pop in Defiance if you're going to be in Deliverance anyways.

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Vengeance's potency is calculated each time the counter effect is triggered, it's not like DoTs.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

8 overpower and a steel cyclone will beat out 3 decimate and single target swings on a huge pull, and staying in defiance you don't have to worry about that bad healer in the DF. If you're doing huge pulls, you should have solid AoE dps in the party. If you're doing small pulls and taking two minutes per pull, then the dps is seriously lacking.

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I'm confused. Where did I say anything about the triple decimate thing? or taking two minutes for small pulls? The middle part kinda responded to my question, but is innaccurate. please look at what frey mentions a few posts down, with that it doesn't matter whether your healer is good or bad, you can sustain yourself more effectively with bloodbath then whatever they do.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Welll uh you don't use Berserk on your first pull soooo.... Gather 4 stacks and refresh Maim before that mob set is finished then when pull next section land a Heavy Swing while moving - WHM Holy stunlocks pack in place - Berserk -> Decimate -> Infuriate -> Decimate -> Raw/Vengence/Maim -> Storm - OP -> Heavy/Maim -> Decimate -> Bloodbath spam a few Overpowers and then WHM pops Esuna for Pac maybe heals** (**but unlikely since you don't lose HP while stuff was stunlocked and you and your other WAR just did the same thing so y'all dealt 5/6 Decimates + a few OPs all while Zerk'd and now have Raw/Venge up anyway) so yeah stuff just melts before it can even touch either Warrior... then you finish anything left with your combos to refill stacks before a boss..

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Why would you do something that produces less potency overall?

In your post you mention most packs are 7-8 mobs, so we'll use 8 mobs that are being hit. Not counting the mid-pull Heavy Swing you're looking at 8 GCDs from the time you do your first Decimate to the third.

Your basic GCD rotation you listed (minus buffs thrown in) looks like this:

Decimate > Decimate > Maim > SE > OP > HS > Maim > Decimate

Taking base potency without any buffs other than Combo value you're looking at:

2240 (Decimate on 8 mobs) > 2240(Dec) > 190(Maim) > 270(SE) > 960 (OP on 8 mobs) > 150(HS) > 190(Maim) > 2240 (Dec)

Total Potency: 8480


A double Decimate/OP spam rotation (assuming you started at the same number of stacks) with a mid-pull Heavy Swing:

Maim > Decimate > Decimate > OP > OP > OP > OP > OP

Potency:

190(Maim) > 2240(Dec) > 2240(Dec) > 960(OP) > 960(OP) > 960(OP) > 960(OP) > 960(OP)

Total Potency: 9470

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

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Sure ok I'll give you that maybe it does end up with a higher output I guess. Overall potency wise you're right its maybe more to just spam.

You're probably going kill them all very fast either way, especially WAR WAR you won't even get a triple Decimate (depends on the HP pools of the trash those droids in Fractal just die instantly ex) so you can just save the stacks left over for the next pack of monsters or boss fight.
It's just fun to do. The only bone is maybe that Overpower spam isn't TP efficient either really unless you're willing to drop Equilibrium for TP over a single mob pack?

In a PUG it won't matter likely if you exhaust TP or CDs since things won't likely "go to plan" anyway.

It gets the job done either way one way is CD efficient (I suppose?) the other is TP efficient.

Just goes to show WAR has really high raw output on packs of monsters.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Sure ok.

You're probably going kill them early, so you can just save stacks left over for the next pack of monsters or boss fight.



That and it's just fun to do. Overpower spam isn't TP efficient either really unless you're willing to drop Equilibrium for TP over a single mob pack.

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Doesn't matter if you're going to kill them early or not. It was all based off the example you tried to say was superior. As for Equilibrium, if things are getting killed that quickly it's not an issue to use it for TP gain. The recast is short enough that it'll be up for each pull.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Doesn't matter if you're going to kill them early or not. It was all based off the example you tried to say was superior. As for Equilibrium, if things are getting killed that quickly it's not an issue to use it for TP gain. The recast is short enough that it'll be up for each pull.

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Well there is nothing wrong with being wrong - I've just always done as many Decimates as I could feasibly squeeze into a pull (which has always yielded a lot of damage) - a triple isn't very common but we do them sometimes. I'll just mess with Overpower and see if the results are better, but usually my goal when rounding out any trash pack is to build a few stacks for the next pull/boss.


Edit: We tested this the other night. Depending on crits it goes either way but Zerk - Dec/Dec OP OP OP OP OP grabs stacks PAC -> next pull ended up being efficient and more reliable to push us along at a higher pace overall since there is less timing involved.

Yeah sadly I know the pain. Ever since I switched to monk have a dps class for my FC I've been seeing a very bad line of warriors. And it's sad because Warrior is my main job. I take pride when I do it. Honestly I don't stance dance as much as I should I'll admit. I like being tanky. I though when I stance dance on mobs usually I pop Vengeance and berserk for the extra damage aggro. At the end of the day I'm still a tank and I still have a job to do. Plus I don't mind having my healer DPS. I get nothing but mad love from all my healer. But this new wave of warriors hurts I won't even lie. I'm not the best but no sense should 20-30 min dungeon runs double in time because WAR wants to hit stuff for fun....

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

I though when I stance dance on mobs usually I pop Vengeance and berserk for the extra damage aggro. At the end of the day I'm still a tank and I still have a job to do. Plus I don't mind having my healer DPS. I get nothing but mad love from all my healer. But this new wave of warriors hurts I won't even lie.

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I've been whming runs lately and I agree, there are definitely a lot of bandwagon Wars out there now making War mains look bad XD

Still, that doesn't mean no warriors should use deliverance. It DOES mean you should know how to play the class before you do.

make sure you pop bloddlust with zerk and vengeance and you'll have your heals loving you even more >;)

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

make sure you pop bloodlust with zerk and vengeance and you'll have your heals loving you even more >;)

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Man, I wish.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Man, I wish.

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I always make that typo >.<

well, not the double d bit technically.