How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

realistically are the situations where you drop uptime for mechanics/aoe dodging and end up risking geir salvaged by high skill speed or not

because even at 2.41 (580-590 or so) optimal 3 geir/min is possible, if just a bit tight. so yes disconnecting for an aoe or a mechanic will make you lose 3 lasers if its at a bad timing; but would this not be the same at 650+ sksp as well? that 0.02s difference spread over a minute i don't feel is enough to make a difference. with 25 skills over a minute, that's 0.50s extra; is that really enough to salvage 3 geir/minute when you have to dodge an aoe or do a mechanic (or get done by a mechanic, cough quarantine/ferrofluid cough). even then it's probably closer to 0.38-0.40s extra time, since typically the last 4-5 GCDs before BoTD refresh, you aren't worrying about the timer anymore anyway

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I really can't speak for DRG here, but as BLM every .01 can really add up since there are frequently times when I refresh Enochian at a time where Enochian has technically fallen off as my B4 is landing. It doesn't seem like it should matter but well, it really does in practice.

Again, can't really speak for Geirskogul mechanics though.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

realistically are the situations where you drop uptime for mechanics/aoe dodging and end up risking geir salvaged by high skill speed or not

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To clarify, Thendiel's talking about how you lose a Geirskogul within that minute-long window if your GCDs overtake the BotD cooldown. Then there will be times you have 3 Geirskoguls from 5 BotD extensions and times you have 3 Geirskoguls from 6 BotD extensions.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

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Here's a quick, dirty, not completely accurate breakdown.
http://puu.sh/kdDsW/4e03e8c747.png

What's important to note is the time remaining in the highlighted portion, where GSK 3 MUST go in order to maintain 3 per minute. If you do it before that other 4th hit, you lose BotD and miss a combo hit, suffering a loss.

"It's only 0.5 seconds!" That's a LOT of bonus time. That allows you to delay your gcds up to 0.5 seconds longer aggregated over 1 minute and still hit 3. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it really does matter. A second is a lot longer than people give it credit for. It's a grace period. Yes, it's possible to be just fine at 2.41 gcd, but at 2.4 and even 2.39 you just have more room for error. That's all. It could be the difference between maintaining botd and losing it, which is where it really matters more than the gsk timings.

Are there any BiS sets that use the gordian belt?

I was totally going to get eso belt after a2 last, and then the belt dropped >.<

As a secondary question, what Det would be too low? I'm having a hard time coming up with a set to stay around 400 det, but most sets I'm coming up with range from 276-350ish. Even if crit is that much better, I don't want to see 276 Det.. Ever.. Lol

Congrats on the 3.0 soldiery helm. At least this one doesn't require a glamor.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

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The belt is a good accuracy piece. Once you have accuracy elsewhere, you should upgrade to 210 Eso. Until then, it's (generally) a good piece.

There's a good set up in the OP with a nice amount of det (484). I personally don't wanna dip too far below 400, either, but it's not really easy to stay over it until you have a significant amount of the bis pieces. Not too much of the good stuff has det on it this patch. A few good pieces to nab if you wanna keep your det up include the eso belt+boots+head. All three give a nice amount; boots have the added benefit of more accuracy than Gordian, too. Gordian accessories are other good places to stack more det. Don't put too much stock in stat weights - crit > det, yes, but crit is at the end of the day RNG as hell. On the contrary, det is consistent.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Considering I hardly believe the formulas that pointed at it, yeah. Nothing is really a thing until someone actually has the set and tests it rigorously (which, thanks to the new drop system, is no longer confined to a few people with lucky drops... but is instead confined to a very small number of raiders ._.;; ). I'm personally shooting for the 777 crit set because muh TP management

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So would you like me to list this set on the main page for you instead?

I assumed Sunny was referring to the Dervy set, since it has a base of 777 crit before food lol. It's amazing you can hit 777 another way, too.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

So would you like me to list this set on the main page for you instead?

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I'd like it better, anyway. My model possibly exaggerates the effect of skill speed on DoTs when it's that high.

(I didn't consider Urchin Loaf at all because it's going to be prohibitively expensive for most players. Heck, on my server, you couldn't even buy a week's supply a month ago.)

e: A4S down, now I can resume life \o/

That's awesome! Grats, Sunny!

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

e: A4S down, now I can resume life \o/

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A big congratulations, and I'm starting savage soon-ish, once I get past the entry test for this group...

I wanna join the big boys :c.

Did you get any weapon upgrade/trident on A4S?

Is 2.40s GCD really needed?

I have 588 SkS (2.41s GCD) and my HTs are buffing themselves. I think this is because damage is determined when starting the GCD, while the HT buff applies after more than a second into the GCD, making it effectively last a little over 25s.

I just experimented with 2.47s GCD and HT still buffs itself. Of course, double-weaving and/or lag makes this too risky, but 2.40s appears to be excessive.

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Originally Posted by Baa

Is 2.40s GCD really needed?

I have 588 SkS (2.41s GCD) and my HTs are buffing themselves. I think this is because damage is determined when starting the GCD, while the HT buff applies after more than a second into the GCD, making it effectively last a little over 25s.

I just experimented with 2.47s GCD and HT still buffs itself. Of course, double-weaving and/or lag makes this too risky, but 2.40s appears to be excessive.

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What kind of rotation are you doing? Mind to elaborate it a little bit more?

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

What kind of rotation are you doing? Mind to elaborate it a little bit more?

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The same one detailed on the first page.
The reasoning for 2.40s GCD is to make sure HT doesn't drop, letting it buff the next HT:
HT(2.4s used up here) --> 9 other GCDs using up remaining 21.6s of buff --> HT again on the dot

But HT applies ~1s into its own GCD:
HT(~1.4s used up here) --> 9 other GCDs using up 21.6s of buff --> ~1s leeway to HT again

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Originally Posted by Baa

The same one detailed on the first page.
The reasoning for 2.40s GCD is to make sure HT doesn't drop, letting it buff the next HT:
HT(2.4s used up here) --> 9 other GCDs using up remaining 21.6s of buff --> HT again on the dot

But HT applies ~1s into its own GCD:
HT(~1.4s used up here) --> 9 other GCDs using up 21.6s of buff --> ~1s leeway to HT again

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On the bigger picture, it's easier to manage BotD and GSK timing with more skill speed, let's not forget that we have another timer that we need to manage.

Imo 2.4s is needed to do the "Optimum" rotation. The magic number has perfect synergy with all the skills DRG currently have, for now.

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

On the bigger picture, it's easier to manage BotD and GSK timing with more skill speed, let's not forget that we have another timer that we need to manage.

Imo 2.4s is needed to do the "Optimum" rotation. The magic number has perfect synergy with all the skills DRG currently have, for now.

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Wouldn't having less SkS actually help with that? Some people are running into problems having to wait on BotD after VT with Selene/expanded arrow.
Using 2.44s for example, would take 1s more to execute 25 GCDs ie. when BotD is refreshed.

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Originally Posted by Baa

Wouldn't having less SkS actually help with that? Some people are running into problems having to wait on BotD after VT with Selene/expanded arrow.
Using 2.44s for example, would take 1s more to execute 25 GCDs ie. when BotD is refreshed.

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I run with a 2.40 or 2.39 gcd, have been since I started Savage. I hit BotD on cooldown; it literally comes off cooldown between VT and FT (or Dis and CT) every time I re-up it. When I do 4-5m parses on dummies, too, I pull it up at those exact times. It's never delayed. Selene only impacts that in raid setting, where most of the time downtime and mechanics will muck up your 3 gsk per minute anyway. I run with a SCH who uses Selene and I never run into issues of BotD coming back late outside of A3S, where it comes back ~1s too late the way I do it to re-up it before CT. I hold my GCD there to do it, and have been ending hand phase at around 1300 dps at i199, so meh?

I've run with AST too who like to spam Arrow on me. It doesn't impact you nearly as much as you'd think. Mechanics and other things make it a lot less of an issue than you think it would be. Higher SS allows for more margin of error.

If all of those words don't convince you, let me share something with you to illustrate an important point:
http://puu.sh/kefrn/1d2d9601b8.png

That second gsk. When you use it at 2.4 gcd, you have approximately 2.2 seconds of grace. What that means is you could have up to ~1.5-1.7s of downtime off the boss with this much ss and still hit your 3 gsk per minute. You have a full second less grace period if you have a 2.44 gcd. Every piece of content worth noting (including, but not limited to latency) forces downtime. Sometimes minor (A1S dragging adds around, you sometimes have small pockets of GCDs sitting not spun) and other times pretty major (A3S has tethers that force you to stop attacking for a relatively long period of time). Bigger grace windows means less chance of your BotD dropping off. It means more gsk per minute. It means more dps in the long run than low ss will ever manage to get you by way of boosting crit or det.

I tried to find some gearsets manually, seeing as to how stat weights keep making it weird. After fixing a frankly embarrassing error in my model (crit buffs were being counted twice for auto-attacks, but only in one of the testbeds...), the best A4S BiS simulation I've gotten so far is the set Aiurily posted--http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RL7Z (estimated average 1493 DPS). If you don't mind accuracy food, it's a good one.

But I do mind accuracy food, so, now that I'm not spending every evening trying to beat the fight, I'll try my hand at writing software to do a more exhaustive search....

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

Did you get any weapon upgrade/trident on A4S?

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Nope. Since we're still looking at odd edge cases where either spear might be BiS, I was okay with holding off. We gave the gobdip to the monk (eso weapon: major crit, minor ss; alex weapon: major ss, minor det... so anyhoo, pretty clear which one's BiS).

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I hold my GCD there to do it, and have been ending hand phase at around 1300 dps at i199, so meh?

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Avoid holding GCDs just to get the Geirskogul in under a minute. GCDs contribute more than 10 times the potency of Geirskoguls. Better to just stretch it to 3 / 84 seconds than slow down the pain train.

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Originally Posted by Baa

The same one detailed on the first page.
The reasoning for 2.40s GCD is to make sure HT doesn't drop, letting it buff the next HT:
HT(2.4s used up here) --> 9 other GCDs using up remaining 21.6s of buff --> HT again on the dot

But HT applies ~1s into its own GCD:
HT(~1.4s used up here) --> 9 other GCDs using up 21.6s of buff --> ~1s leeway to HT again

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2.4s isn't needed to have HT buff itself because of animation/debuff/buff delay and how attacks snapshot on the start of the attack, though when you are over 2.40 there is a slight delay where HT will drop and any oGCD's or autoattacks in that brief period may not have the HT buff - I'm not sure this is really worth getting the SS as well. For people with bad ping the extra SS helps maintain the HT buffed HT when double weaving or if jumps eat into your GCD.

Having greater leeway for Gsk is a good justification, and I will continue aiming for 2.40s.
My original question, though, was whether 2.40s was really *needed*. The guide emphasises this in bold, underlined text. Yet 2 posts up we see a BiS set with 579 SkS.
When new DRGs come along and read the guide, will they drop ilvls or delay upgrades just to keep 590+ SkS, when they could do better with 2.41s or 2.42s?
I suppose all this doesn't matter outside of savage anyway.

My recast time is also at 2.41 and I don't think having 0.01-0.02 difference will hurt much as long as you still pump mainstat if you're witholding upgrade. Unless you're doing extreme raids that require you to min-max everything.

The 2.40 GCD conundrum is based on the theorem that every oGCD like BFB/GSK connection synergizes with each other producing optimum result(s) and also situation that you're given a free time frame to "whack the dummy", which is what we aim for, even in raid environment, having less than 2.40 is also recommended by A4S clearer such as Sunny/Yan Dere, they both have crazy high SkS.

They got faster damage deliverance and more room for error, which is what we seek during encounters

Although those who're more expert in Dragoon-ing might want to chime in and correct me where I'm wrong.

2.41 is the bare minimum. If I drop the 190 chest for a SKS-less one, such as the Valerian one, I drop to 2.43. I still haven't reached the third Geirskogul consistently at 2.43 GCD.

2.35 GCD before Selene. Get on my level boys.

I really wanna use the Gordian Trident as my BiS weapon but(and I hate to say this) skill speed has more appeal to me than Det. The set I might use would put me at 900 crit, 300ish Det and iirc 700+ skillspeed.

What accuracy does that put you at? The only set I can think of would put you at like 639 with pipra to get those substat values. I'm guessing the strategy you employ for A4 involves you not dealing with adds?

Yeah its 639 with Pipira. I'm not on add duty so I don't really get to hit things up front, except for maybe 2-4 GCDs in the last phase.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Avoid holding GCDs just to get the Geirskogul in under a minute. GCDs contribute more than 10 times the potency of Geirskoguls. Better to just stretch it to 3 / 84 seconds than slow down the pain train.

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Since I don't pop a potion in my opener, my initial BotD comes 1 gcd later, letting me squeak out 3 Geirskoguls before phase transition. At the end of the rotation I end up hitting ID>ID>[ID] (last one doing nothing to the boss and just re-upping my combo) which is probably not ideal. After, I slap him with Disembowel, wait about 1s for BotD, hit:
BotD>CT>IR>4th>HT>Leg+PS>TT>Jump>VT>Life [wash away]>SSD>FT>4th>gsk>phleb>CT combo>HT>FT combo+Jump>wash away>DFD>...

I haven't decided if I like that or just hitting CT and shifting everything else forward one, dropping Life+BotD on wash away just before I SSD>FT. It seems to work out better when I delay, though that might just be confirmation bias of me wanting it to work out better that way. :P

From there I don't know my full hard-and-fast rotation yet; still trying to iron out exactly how many gcds I get in between Hand of Prayer/Parting and Equal Concentration.
I generally drop another CT on the main hand along with a gsk, keeping botd flowing before I burn it and re-up it for Equal Concentration, where I do a full opener+potion without DFD.

Any advice on how to optimize better here would be more than welcome.




Also~ @discussion above: There's a set that's in the OP with 650 ss / 900 crit. It's "technically" bis, using the stat weights in the OP. I say technically because I still prefer Dervy's (since suuuper low det), though with his I'd likely still swap in Brio because the SS is too low for me.
650 ss: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM94

From there, though, you can swap to the Gordian booties and drop accuracy to 639 while boosting SS to 708, which is probably the set that's being referred to.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM95

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Originally Posted by enil

2.4s isn't needed to have HT buff itself because of animation/debuff/buff delay and how attacks snapshot on the start of the attack, though when you are over 2.40 there is a slight delay where HT will drop and any oGCD's or autoattacks in that brief period may not have the HT buff - I'm not sure this is really worth getting the SS as well. For people with bad ping the extra SS helps maintain the HT buffed HT when double weaving or if jumps eat into your GCD.

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I've modeled it a bit... yeah, it's not really worth worrying about the auto-attacks that won't get buffed. More SS probably hurts people with bad ping, since it aggravates the clipping they get.

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Originally Posted by Baa

Having greater leeway for Gsk is a good justification, and I will continue aiming for 2.40s.
My original question, though, was whether 2.40s was really *needed*. The guide emphasises this in bold, underlined text. Yet 2 posts up we see a BiS set with 579 SkS.
When new DRGs come along and read the guide, will they drop ilvls or delay upgrades just to keep 590+ SkS, when they could do better with 2.41s or 2.42s?
I suppose all this doesn't matter outside of savage anyway.

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That is an issue I have with the guide. Healer attack speed buffs will mess with this, and they always were going to.

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

The 2.40 GCD conundrum is based on the theorem that every oGCD like BFB/GSK connection synergizes with each other producing optimum result(s) and also situation that you're given a free time frame to "whack the dummy", which is what we aim for, even in raid environment, having less than 2.40 is also recommended by A4S clearer such as Sunny/Yan Dere, they both have crazy high SkS.

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I don't recommend any particular level of skill speed; I just don't have the spear drop. I think it's one of the few points where personal preference and circumstance come in, because the theoretical differences between the BiS sets worth considering is on the scale of single-digit DPS (I felt this way about 2.x monk as well). Sometimes less than .5 DPS. You can easily lose more DPS than that by just sneezing.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

From there I don't know my full hard-and-fast rotation yet; still trying to iron out exactly how many gcds I get in between Hand of Prayer/Parting and Equal Concentration.

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That's about where things fall apart for me, since tanks are not robots.

What I do for the hand phase (now that I'm in the clear for discussing specific fight tactics outside the FC):

- ID 2 or 3 times right before hand phase so you don't lose one of your debuffs
- For first Wash Away, attempt to use Jump to cheese the knockback. If unsuccessful, use Elusive Jump (good luck everyone else!). HOLD Spineshatter Dive.
- For second Wash Away, another Jump attempt. Use Spineshatter Dive before your assigned hand gets out of range.
- When it's time to high-five the hands, use as many Doom Spikes as you can get away with. Of course, don't do this for Equal Concentration (regardless of the mechanic, you don't have the TP for it). This is where RNG can screw you
- If the hands have to be un-clapped before the tornado phase, Spineshatter Dive should be up just in time for you to chase one of them. If not, well, ooh a cooldown (poing).

My DPS is notso hotso on that fight, but a big part of that is because I didn't buy pants until after A3 this week.

You can use Jump to stop a Wash Away? What's the timing on this?

I've seen jump work sometimes on interrupting a knock back, generally I use spineshatter or elusive though. Basically as soon as your character starts to move you'll want to use a jump. If you use it too early you'll still end up being knocked back. I find elusive and spineshatter far more reliable, plus jump deals more potency than spine so I try not to use it for odd purposes like that. Either elusive sits there not being used, or I use it.

Jump can stop any knockback. It tracks your position based on when you hit the button and returns you to that spot. If you time it JUST right, you'll cheese to the point that you'll only get knocked back a very tiny bit and the rest is negated. The timing is pretty tight so I tend not to try, but I suppose I should.

I usually just hold DFD on my opener in A3 and use it after the second wash away for the chase. I absolutely hate the delay that's inherent in turning around to use Elusive Jump; the only spot in current raids (that I've done so far) where I use it... I'm on 0.5 in A1S so I elusive back to it after my first B4B combo on the not-0.5, and I use it after blowing up my first gobtank in A2S to get back to the other tanks and hop in before Wave 7 so I can squeeze in as much damage as possible on the widow.

That said, I would pay SE money to make me an inverse of the /facetarget command so I could macro it to Elusive Jump.

I might actually end up doing the Doom Spike "cheese" there... I have an excess of TP assuming healers don't let me die to Sluice in P1, and the amount of GCDs I have before Equal Concentration is awkward as hell... Also makes it so I'm focusing less on attacking while I do Digititis \o/ win/win/win. And yeah, pants are a huuuge get. I'm stuck in loot hell - 3 weeks without any meaningful upgrades (Eso boots being the only piece I've gotten in the past 3 weeks that I can actually use in A3S) and next week I STILL won't be changing gear unless literally any one of the four pieces I don't currently own drop for me. The week after I gain about as much weight as when I purchased my weapon, though, so I can't complain TOO much. (Eso chest+head+gordian neck+2 coats+I can use my eso belt)

Why you guys holding so many cds? I've never used a doom spike on double hands(I'm not sure why you would do that?),I just double dot and hit them 4/5 lasers. Also I just use spineshatter for first wash away and elusive back for second. Its not that hard to aim it after you get used to it.

I was kinda curious if the DS would math out better, but don't want to get started on that lol. I've been dotting them both up as well, trying to make sure I haven't just refreshed them on the wrong one for equal concentration. Still figuring it out though.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Also~ @discussion above: There's a set that's in the OP with 650 ss / 900 crit. It's "technically" bis, using the stat weights in the OP. I say technically because I still prefer Dervy's (since suuuper low det), though with his I'd likely still swap in Brio because the SS is too low for me.
650 ss: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM94

From there, though, you can swap to the Gordian booties and drop accuracy to 639 while boosting SS to 708, which is probably the set that's being referred to.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM95

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Being referred to by whom? Should I remove the 650 SS set, or add another? I figured the 650 SS set belonged there due to its stat weighting and due to the fact that it provides a higher level Skill Speed than the other two (which some people might like as a question of preference--although, as you say, one could always just swap in a Brionac instead of a Gordian Trident with the others).

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I was kinda curious if the DS would math out better, but don't want to get started on that lol. I've been dotting them both up as well, trying to make sure I haven't just refreshed them on the wrong one for equal concentration. Still figuring it out though.

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I just dont think you can get 4-5 lasers on double hands if you are using DS, you would just be wasting precious botd timer, and GK is 40 more potency per target then DS. You can just also keep up your normal rotation if you dont use DS.

One problem with Doom Spike spam before Equilibrium is that it could reduce the DPS output of your group's BRD/MCH during the Equilibrium check if the high-HP hand doesn't have Disembowel active. I just throw Dis and CT up on both of them for this reason.

Did we ever come to a consensus on the best approach for phase 1 of A3S? I know it's been a recurring topic of discussion, but everyone seems to do it their own way. In order to accomodate that awkward 22 GCD window (sometimes it's 23, depending on animation speeds, skill speed, etc.), I've been running with:

HT-ID-Dis-CT-4th
Ph-TT-VT-FT-4th
HT-ID-Dis-CT-4th
Ph-TT-VT-FT
ID-Dis-CT-HT (HT buff activates even if the damage doesn't go out)

Ignoring that 4th combo hit at the end feels a little weird, but I can still land 3 Geirskoguls with this approach, and Living Liquid will be debuffed with Disembowel when he reappears. Anyway, this is just something I came up with semi-randomly; I'd love to hear input from people who've thought about that phase more rigorously.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Why you guys holding so many cds? I've never used a doom spike on double hands(I'm not sure why you would do that?),I just double dot and hit them 4/5 lasers. Also I just use spineshatter for first wash away and elusive back for second. Its not that hard to aim it after you get used to it.

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Spineshatter is the only one I hold. A lot of groups you'll see DRGs hold back a bit because they need to get past Hand of Pain (which I can understand... don't agree with it, but I can understand). My reasoning for holding the Spineshatter Dive is because my group uses Holmgang on the first and nothing for the second. It is therefore much safer to use the Elusive towards a fixed target and Spineshatter towards one that might be heading towards a tank on the opposite side of the arena from you in a second, and then possibly get dragged further if the tanks are too close to each other. Then the potential second gap-close if your last Hands mechanic is Prayer.

The theorycrafting behind Doom Spike on two targets is more than I care to get into right now because it's not as simple as just see 2 targets -> Doom Spike (I mean, it blows Full Thrust out of the water, but still). For A3, it's also got a lot to do with the timings of the hand phase, the time the BotD timer comes back up, and so forth. Where I can leave it for now is that the primary weakness of double-DoTing is that the Chaos thrust has to pay off almost all the way. Nor should you forsake Disembowel on the bard's primary target (which should be the same as yours) either, because at the very least you don't have the TP for that without a Goad. But the idea that 440 potency / 60 seconds is worth sacrificing a few rounds of 336 / 2.4 seconds should be regarded as a wut, at least.

It is just fine to double DoT, and you will beat out someone going single target only (which in itself is all that is necessary), but I'm confident that due to the timings on everything and the nature of the few opportunities you have to even attempt it, you do squeeze out a few extra potency with Doom Spike. Prove me wrong!

(edit: should also note that Elysium's world first video has a demonstration at about 2:20)

I think that Hak has already proven you wrong.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

I think that Hak has already proven you wrong.

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To be fair, about 75% of A3S is the final phase. The amount of impact DS v 2x CT in hand phase has on that final parse number is astronomically small. Assume Doom Spike gives a boost of 200 dps in that 15s window - that's 3000 damage over the course of a 11m 36s fight (696s) which amounts to less than 5 dps. You won't even notice the difference. Crit rate causes more variance than that in final dps numbers. You can assume in the opposite direction, as well, and see the same thing. Also please note - 200 dps is a HUGE overestimation of the difference between those two approaches, I'm quite sure (without running the numbers), so the gain would be even smaller over such a long fight. C:

That is to say - a single parse of a clear attempt being the top can't be used to prove one method over the other in one small window of a long fight, since there's FAR too many other factors that come into play in individual parses.

ALSO I just panicked something fierce since a parse of me was on there and I had never submitted one and I was like HOW DID IT KNOW xD

Oh, he has me beat there for sure (I know who I'm talking with), but that's not formal enough a proof to convince me ;)

It's impressive enough with a death, though.

Next week I get to see what I do with i208 level strength. ((I'm looking forward to it!))

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

I think that Hak has already proven you wrong.

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I died at the end too :( My issue with DS has nothing to do with the double dotting, it's botd timers, I get 4-5 lasers on double hands, how many do you get? In sitting at 1450-75 going into adds with no DS.