Yes, a side effect that shouldn't be considered. It's just funny that every thread is filled with that "side effect" for pretty much everything :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
Apart from that, yes, Clemency is a good skill but a little bit impractical.
Tank Balance
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08-20-2015, 04:42 AMReynhart
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08-20-2015, 04:43 AMGooner_iBluAirJGRYup. Tempered Will, Sheltron and Shield Swipe are the main three skills that wouldn't hurt from some adjustment imo. The issue isn't so much that they're not useful, because they are from time to time, but the times when they are useful can be lack luster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
But then. . . maybe this is just the way the universe is meant to be.
#Inception -
08-20-2015, 04:50 AMErcapoteok then... NETFLIX and chill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
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08-20-2015, 04:50 AMcarbonx
Tempered Will: A3S says hi. Literally makes the knockback between the hand splits so easy. Your OT doesn't have to run across the arena to pick theirs up, and you don't get pushed in random directions which can be make or break for the hand of prayer/reach mechanic. Can also be used to maximize dps uptime for you in lots of fights. Tempered Will is situational, but very very powerful.
Shield Swipe saves you so much TP while you are tanking. Don't care much about the pacification if it means I don't need to beg for goad when a dps could use it more.
Shield Bash: Again, A3S says hi. Only thing I would change is make the TP cost lower.
I also agree PLD seems to be lacking in magical mitigation comparatively. We rely a lot on physical blocks, which aren't as useful in some fights (A1/4). However, I think Sheltron is a very strong CD considering everything is timed you can always block a physical tankbuster with proper planning on your part. -
08-20-2015, 04:53 AMDonjoI know that I tend to write long posts, but please try to read the entire thing if you intend to directly reply to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strident
You spent half of your post explaining how using Tempered Will to not get killed by Landslide(and other similar generic situations) is a bad way to use it... when I previously stated that:
1. Tempered Will is useful if you're caught in a situation where you cannot dodge the normally dodgeable knockback/draw-in attack. The specific Titan EX instance I mentioned referenced an undodgeable Landslide, which can happen from the MT's point of view.
2. Using Tempered Will solely to be lazy is a waste of the skill.
That being said, Safety Net does not mean "pop Tempered Will and then purposely get hit by the attack because I'm safe now". That's lazy, which... see above.
And this brings us to Cover now as well. Cover, along with Tempered Will, are probably most intended to be used as Safety Net skills. Safety Nets exist to catch us if we fall. Tempered Will is only effective if it is used proactively; ie. before the unwanted movement effect in question happens. Unless you have a specific niche plan(such as a maximize uptime on the boss strategy) then the ideal use for Tempered Will is to, if you ever feel like you're in danger of being moved around, pop it... and then continue attempting to avoid the effect. It isn't there to foster laziness; it's there to save your bacon is you make a mistake.
Cover, on the other hand, is a Safety Net skill that usually lends itself to reactive use. Enemies should typically be targeting Tanks with physical attacks, but if anyone makes a mistake that causes an unwanted target to start getting hit, Cover is a Safety Net that can catch them before they die. While Tempered Will has a good number of situations where it can be utilized in a useful manner outside of just being a Safety Net, Cover has fewer of these situations and will thsu most often be used to respond to an error.
If you think about things in terms of Safety, it can be seen that these two skills fit the aesthetic of the Paladin very well. After all, they're the "safe" Tank. Okay to Good Paladins may see these kinds of skills, think "when will I ever need this? Off the hotbar you go!", and go on their merry way. A Great Paladin will survey the battlefield, keep an eye out, and use them to help maximize the safety of the party should things go sour. Aside from fixing the "only one combo is boring!" situation, Paladin's new skills just make things even safer. Sheltron? A free block and a decent chunk of free MP to help power Clemency, a useful emergency heal. And Divine Veil? It does require a bit more work than what is perhaps strictly necessary to get its benefit, but some damage absorption is always okay in these endgame fights that oh so love to attack the party.
These abilities are all integral parts of what makes a Paladin a Paladin, and they don't need to go anywhere.
And Ercaporte? You're so eager to complain about Paladin that you are literally blind to what it does well and greatly exaggerating its weaknesses. Iagainsti is right. You should chill out a bit. -
08-20-2015, 04:59 AMkarateorangutang
I dunno, seems like 95% of the Paladin mains are happy with it, I guess just keep it the way it is?
I'm fine with that. -
08-20-2015, 05:03 AMErcapoteTempered Will: say hi back to A3s, yes I guess it might help not moving from the middle, meanwhile I can just go back to the middle :/ dps will be pushed back so not that much of maximization.Quote:
Originally Posted by carbonx
shied swipe : don't save you "so much" TP in fact you can say it's worth using it's a dps lost and you do better by combo ROYAL AUTHORITY than by using shield swipe. pld tp will be blown at the 2.45min mark anyways.
shield bash: hi again A3s again, nothing that DRK and WAR cannot do and hit harder
GL with sheltron in AS there are none physiscal tankbuster :)
sorry if it sound offensive not trying to be but it's just...meh -
08-20-2015, 05:07 AMRecklessLionThey're true paladin users. Everyone else wants to remain on top of crown doing any and everything. Like I said I remember reading how amazing the PLD was in 2.0 and 2.5 and now because of burn phases the PLD generated all these issue? A huge question mark. For better or worse PLD want to be to the go to tanks or else all this buffing to secretly over powered the PLD in all areas while Warriors remain dps and DRK throw their sword all over the place. Your class have a role and specific way they do their job. It is what it is. Only two classes I can think of that should rant like this. Monks and DRK and the crazy thing I don't see DRK complain I think they're happy with slapping folks with their sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
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08-20-2015, 05:08 AMcarbonxLiterally every cleave in A3 is physical. Most of the attacks in A2 are physical, the hardest of which is the cleave from the Jagd Dolls which you can predict and block with sheltron. Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about. Not the same "oneshot hits", but you can still die if not properly mitigated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
Shield Bash, unlike WAR and DRK and every DPS, is GCD, meaning you can literally stun whenever needed without needing to hold it and lose DPS like those classes.
Shield Swipe is still DPS while saving TP versus going completely dry and doing a grand total of 0 dps while you wait for it to tic back. Ultimately, that is a DPS gain. It can also be seen as a DPS gain if your DPS can keep going, and your Bard can go without playing Paeon for longer.
Tempered Will literally saves random wipes in A3S you otherwise are very powerless over. Unless you've seen the fight, you likely won't understand how strict the timing/distance for the mechanics are. -
08-20-2015, 05:13 AMkarateorangutangWhich is why I'm fine with it. I stopped playing PLD not because it was powerful or even good... tiers really dont concern me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RecklessLion
I stopped playing it because it's abilities are touch and go and its toolset has absolutely no flow to it.
If that's what makes PLD fun for people though, then more power to them. -
08-20-2015, 05:14 AMIagainstiThe Writing is on the WallQuote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
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08-20-2015, 05:17 AMErcapoteI'm a paladin since 2.0 in fact first class I ever picked and still having it on 3.0 with I lvl 189 and before HW I love my paladin. I don't bash paladin weakness I perfectly stated that they have lost of death weigh (abilities with no use) on top of them a class that needs some sort of fix/buff/ whatever...Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
paladins are on a great unbalanced place where we have 3 tanks, 2 are well designed 1 it is not. not only the other 2 tanks deal more damage, they also have just a much protection and defense they also provide more substantial raid abilities and even more helpful.
paladin weakness is not just 1 or 2 is pack of abilities plus the fact that it's outperformed by the other 2 tanks just fine, I just want my class to be rebalance, and be a normal position where I don't have to hear on a raid groups complain about my dps, or get kik out of raid group. I'm talking abiut avoiding exclusion and SE needs to fix that, because that's what they wanted BALANCE and right now PALADIN are not balance, they are out performed by the other 2 tanks and PLD just doesn't have the tools to change that because half of paladins abilities are DEAD WEIGHT
btw this post is about TANK BALANCE what did you honestly expect to find? why should I "chill"? if you are coming to a threat like this telling people to chill maybe you should just get out, I'm talking from my personal experience stating why paladins need a balance whether you agree or not with my opinion is your business. no offence. -
08-20-2015, 05:33 AMPhoeniciaNothing against you Ercapote and I understand your frustration, but you literally changed two threads with different topics into the same discussion of how Tempered Will sucks. Which is annoying. This is supposed to be an objective thread that looks at the three tanks balance and how they fit the current meta and you turned into "oh the woes of the PLD's Tempered Will". Let us keep this thread relevant to its purpose, which is the three tank balance and not make it solely into "buff PLD plx pl0x".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
In the other thread you asked me to explain how PLD's abilities are good. In this thread, I explained where the three tanks are "fine" and where they aren't. Check my post here.
PLD is still superior to the other tanks in terms of defense even in the magical heavy environment of Alexander Savage. Check this long post.
PLD's problem isn't that it is weak or the class is bad. it is the meta that doesn't need such superior defense (which is PLD's niche). But blindly balancing the class to match a current raid might add underlying problems in future raids. If PLD did the same DPS as DRK, not WAR, while keeping its defensive superiority, DRK will have no place in raids. I'm not even worried about WAR's spot since it is the only tank with the all too important slashing debuff! (Another problem on its own).
DRK is a worse tank than PLD in every respect. Only reason DRK is "relevant" now is because content allowed it. If future content requires any form of physical mitigation that isn't simply "Throw all your biggest CDs every 2~3 minutes", DRK will be the tank left out since WAR and PLD both do a better job at reducing damage. -
08-20-2015, 05:37 AMErcapoteplease go back to other threats on the forum and say that again.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
yeah I guess half of us here are just making up stuff because we are jelly of war, fun fact comment like yours are usually NON-PLD (war) user who have their ass confy and warm well place on any raid group while us PLD have to fight with a drk or not even because people are picking them over PLD. not that we need a balance, no... we jellyQuote:
Originally Posted by RecklessLion
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08-20-2015, 05:39 AMIagainsti
You're posts are more a rant based on false info. PLD is fine, maybe a enmity multiplier increase, but the abilities are not deadweight, you don't know how to use them efficiently. My tank partner is a PLD and had no problem in the current meta, currently have SA2 cleared, SA1 on farm and after FC vacationers come back we will progress without a hitch.
Just Reread your posts; you'll see that you have #nochill -
08-20-2015, 05:40 AMRecklessLion
Your not out performed it just this content at the moment prefer dps which PLD do not have. And it sucks another tank with some dps showed up so PLD are no longer the favorite choice. That's what this really breaks down too. The moment square adds a mean boss that drops mad damage people will run back to PLD and Warriors will go back to being less favorable. If you look at the warriors buff it's not buff at all! Pretty much gave them the go ahead and be a dps that can heal it self here and there. Still the dps stance will not survive a mean boss......it's not noticed because it hasn't happened yet. Warriors dps, PLD support, and DRK I feel should just be another dps class honestly any how those are the rolls. Trying to balance out so all tanks can be used in all situation which they can will bring tiers no matter what. Utility and dps defeats dps that dps espically as a roll like tanking and true dps users are backing you up.
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08-20-2015, 05:48 AMErcapoteI do agree with you this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
but...
the balance I'm asking is not dps, like I said in the other threat I don't care about dps, I'm a tanker because I want to tank, but the current situation on the game like you said our defense is not needed on the meta of the game so this leads to 3 tanks 2 work with the meta 1 doesn't. the hole TEMEPRED WILL arouse out of a comment that wasn't even aiming to that 1 specific ability, but whatever it was I read you comment and while I do agree with your point and same as everyone point here, what I'm talking about or what WE where talking about long ago on this threat is the DEAD WEIGH on pally and how that SUPREME defense was the excuse to make then weaker yet still is not supreme and wont be ever supreme, DRK is on a good spor the defense are well balanced and the dps too, I've raid with my lvl 60 drk and I can MT OT perfectly fine they have 2 CD just as good as PLD + magical CD + parry CD + cross class from war and pally making them have just as many CD as pally has + magic defense and reduction which is even higher. so I'm sorry but DRK are on a well perfectly balance place just as war. -
08-20-2015, 05:50 AMErcapoteyou didn't want Netflix and chill nor pizza with me so i'm #nochillQuote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
btw I do know how to use them efficiently and I'm on A3s the abilities just doesn't have much use. -
08-20-2015, 05:53 AMkarateorangutangQuote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
I have been here the whole time and I've made many posts in favor of paladin changes. All of which have been met with people saying that they are completely happy with how paladin works. I've posted several suggestions in both of the current threads that haven't even been commented on. So yes it seems that most of the people who are playing paladin on this forum think that paladin is fine. -
08-20-2015, 06:00 AMPhoeniciaNo, no, DRK defense SUCKS! 1 Magical CD doesn't make good defense. DRK using Shadowskin + DA+DM has 44% magical reduction, which is hardly better than Sentinel but at a massive MP cost. And only for magical damage. For physical damage DRK is down to Shadowskin and Shadow Wall. The latter being a crappy version of Sentinel. DRK's Living Dead is healer's Living Hell. Even with CC from MRD and GLA, DRK is at 2 defensive CDs less than PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
Read my other posts that I linked and you'll understand. I'll relink: I talked about those "situational" abilities in my post here. and about defensive capabilities in this long post.
P.S. How are you not running out your daily post limit with all those posts? Aren't you worried you're spending all of them on just telling how bad Tempered Will is? lol -
08-20-2015, 06:03 AMErcapoteI guess we will just ignore that half of the post for the past weeks have been about PLD begging for changes, while I do have to agree I have a little stigma and kinda mix the threat now that I start think about it I do apologize because I had the mentality of the threat that was talking about how boring the class was, and had that " CHANGE EVERYTHING" type of mentality on this threat tho, I do agree that some of the new abilities of the class are fine and make the class good, like I said I'm still having my pld so when it comes to are you good with your pally ? yes, just make them balance and relevant as the other 2 tanks because if I main a class I shouldn't need to change to other classes to perform better on x amount of future content. and that's all we are asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
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08-20-2015, 06:04 AMcarbonx
It's not that I wouldn't make tweaks to Paladin, but I think they would become too powerful and completely outweigh the other tanks.
Hallowed Ground, for instance, is the holy grail of a tanking ability. Holmgang/Living Dead are shit comparatively, since your healers still have to be on point whereas HG you can just cheese mechanics, healers can dps worry free. Their Convalescence and Awareness are buffed versions of the ones you get on DRK/WAR. They have raid utility the other classes just do not have. Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, Stoneskin.
Really the only downside to Paladin is that you don't pull the same DPS (ask MT) as the other two classes, which could be argued to change, but groups are clearing just fine with Paladins. -
08-20-2015, 06:07 AMErcapotelmao IDK I'm just bored at work right now that's how I've been taking the time lately to do this ROLF. happened yesterday tho. who know this might be my last post, and if it's have a nice day we will discuss another time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-20-2015, 06:08 AMRbstr
My several cents:
DRK is cool, with some minor tweaks easily making it my favorite. Dark Artsing skills to do different things is a cool mechanic I think is underutilized by the class.
Lessen the TP drain and make a few things more internally-synergistic: Dark Arts effects and skills could use some tweaking to work in a more fluid way. The evasion bonus on Dark Dance is bad and, even though I like all three in various ways, the three AOE skills don't come together like I think they should. Especially with DA in the mix. Finally Delirium should have a second debuff that gives it OT utility that isn't overwritten by the monk.
One thing with Paladin is that they don't really get the option to do a pull with some kind of big "enmity buff" on Rage of Halone. Sure they have Fof, but compared to unchained/zerk Butcher's Blocks or DA Power Slashes, it's not much.
Its lovely and all that PLDs want to do more damage. The question is, what do you want to give up in order to get it? They do less damage for a reason. They do have more basic physical mitigation than the others through blocking. -
08-20-2015, 06:11 AMDonjoYou cannot come into this kind of thread wielding factually false information and expect people to sit down and accept it. The fact of the matter is that Paladin doesn't have a single ability that has no use and all your ranting is doing is making you look silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
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08-20-2015, 06:27 AMnyttynAwareness and Cover both have no use in the current content (For a paladin, Raw Intuition means Awareness is actually great on warriors lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
The only time the former has ever had any use was Shiva Extreme, and the current expert roulette does not allow a paladin to gather up enough mobs that Awareness ever matters. I mean it might be a extremely tiny damage reduction, but for any real definiton of 'useless' it mitigates so little damage as to not even matter.
Cover is legitimately useless unless you fall asleep at your keyboard and a horde of physical mobs start wailing on a party member. But even then it's a super short duration on a super long cooldown so even in that edge case scenario that should never happen in the first place it's atrocious. -
08-20-2015, 06:29 AMIagainstiThis is getting weird #WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot??!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
Back to the "Balance" topic:
In the sake of balancing, let's give PLD a dps boost, and I want WAR and DRK to get access to the Block stat.
Since we are discussing balance, can't tip the scale #amIrightoramIright? #balance #/10balance #lolDrg -
08-20-2015, 06:32 AMPhoeniciaIn other words, let's make all three tanks into 1 class, DarkWarriodin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
I like how #lolDRG made its way here.
P.S. It's official, I'm changing mains to SMN, that AF is too cute. lol
P.S.S. Since I'm changing mains to SMN, &*@$ tank balance. Any PLD wanna challenge me for some AoE DPS race?! :p -
08-20-2015, 07:05 AMDonjoDone. Now to go stack Spell Speed so that my speedier flashes win the DPS(Declothings Per Second) race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-20-2015, 07:28 AMIagainstiThis will be my new hashtag. My eyes changed to hearts when I saw this. I'll be finishing all my posts, relevant or not, with #DarkWarriordin until we receive the Balance we want and derserve!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-20-2015, 07:34 AMDonjo
If you all want Balance so much, why don't you go bug the nearest Astrologian?
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08-20-2015, 07:39 AMkarateorangutang.... oh I know some of the conversation is dull in here but really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
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08-20-2015, 07:49 AMIvelliorThat cooldown usage is not optimal for Savage 1. You will never waste both Rampart + Sentinel on that tank buster, especially since only the later is enough and the healers will be on full healing duty due to all the aoe and damage during that phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia;3257948
PLD is still superior to the other tanks in terms of defense even in the magical heavy environment of Alexander Savage. Check [URL="http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/256147-How-tank-DPS-focus-is-hurting-the-trinity-.?p=3247940#post3247940"
PLD will go: Sentinel => Hallowed => Sentinel => Rampart + Awareness + Drac Pot of Vit + Stoneskin + whatever the healers can throw on you to keep you alive.
DRK will go: Dark Arts + Dark Mind + Shadow Wall => Living Death + Benediction => Dark Arts + Dark Mind + Shadow Wall => Dark Arts + Dark Mind + Rampart
It's more efficient (for both tanks) to use Rampart/Shadowskin after the bombs and use convalence + tank stance when the boss starts casting the missiles. If you are able to time the living death properly you can get mitigate more damage because the effective duration but we will just assume it will be used for the tank buster.
As for the benediction, it really shouldn't be a problem since 99% of the groups doing savage have SCH + WHM combination for healers. In the rare case that you don't have that combination you can just have WAR spend some of his self healing cooldowns to help the healers that have to top up DRK.
If you have a WHM using Benediction it is a no brainer since the healers can focus on WAR after Holmgag and just throw you the benediction a few seconds before the timer runs out.
Also while the 4th tank buster should no longer be an issue now with the items people have from tomes, it was something that people would face, especially in the first weeks.
However since the enrage timer was very close to the tank buster a lot of time it was simply preferable to just use the cooldowns earlier and just let the pld die so he could use a STR pot earlier rather than save the cooldown for the VIT pot on the last tank buster.
Not to mention Delirium in as well. So in that fight DRK not only mitigates more damage but is overall more efficient because he does more damage.
On Savage 2 PLD will mitigate more damage, but since PLD has not real aoe damage to speak of, it's still more efficient to use a DRK, since you can "mitigate" more damage by simply killing things faster.
On Savage 3 most damage is physical but the orange tethers are magical tank busters (The first hand is somewhat of a tank buster. You can cheese it using your I wont die button but you can always just turn it around and share damage with the group).
Whether you want to use PLD or DRK here depends on whether you can pass the dps checks, which are plenty and tough. Haven't cleared this, so I can't comment on 4.
WAR is a must have on all Savage raids because it does more damage.
The problem is the current META (because tanks need to be a beefy dps now) and the way savage encounters are designed. To make it short because DRK deals more damage and the raids have a lot of magical tank busters it's more efficient to use a DRK.
And because WAR deals the most damage it's a must have. -
08-20-2015, 07:55 AMSpookyGhostYou speak in riddles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellior
e: Oh, I see, a 4th buster in A1S. That's pretty unlikely to happen, but yeah PLDs do kinda get super shafted if it does. Though if your group is getting a 4th buster... that's less PLD's problem and more the DPS. Probably should get that sorted out instead of wasting your money/time away on Drac Pots of Extremely Situational Uses. -
08-20-2015, 07:58 AMIvelliorThere was literally no other way to survive that 4th tank buster with the cooldowns you had left and the items available at the time. And yes you normally use STR potions as often as you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
Edit:
It is no longer an issue now with the new items, but at the first week it was. On the bright side the Drac VIT pots were dirt cheap because of how useless they are :P -
08-20-2015, 09:10 AMWindklinge
strange. we always seem to get 4th buster and then self destruct right after. most the time the pally dies there then boss dies basicly very shortly after. imo i say 4th buster is a bit strange. since it doesnt happen all the time. sometimes boss does self destruct before it does buster. which is totally akward.
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08-20-2015, 10:35 AMBrian_Good job ignoring everything that has changed from 2.X to 3.X that has hurt PLD in real and quantifiable ways. People are hardly being unreasonable and facetious when they point out the issues with enmity, now unusable skills, etc. But, you don't play PLD and have never played PLD so of course you wouldn't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by RecklessLion
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08-20-2015, 11:01 AMIagainstiReg: If you want to join the People's Front of Judea, you have to really hate the Romans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Brian: I do!
Reg: Oh yeah, how much?
Brian: A lot!
Reg: Right, you're in. -
08-20-2015, 11:55 AMAnyndel
I'm honestly surprised how people is obsessed with minmaxing in this game, specially with tanks and healers doing dps... Unless your party is behind on damage for the fight, which then is the DPSs fault, the tank shouldn't have anything to do with it.
I understand people wanting to maximize their dps as a warrior since you can deal some serious damage that can be compared to the dps jobs and also increase your self healing on doing so since the job's motto is more like "kill it fast before it hurts you", but stuff like people used to do like determination on PLD shield for almost no dps increase at all, why? you can perfectly clear stuff by playing normally and I would take parry over determination anytime when tanking (and yeah, I do know the "if you have block parry loses value" but still almost no parry gain > almost no dps gain).
I always end up getting into the discussion of "WAR can't do this" or "PLD can't do that" like the "WAR can't MT T9" but then you have a video of people 4manning it with a WAR tanking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbYYx7_G3NM).
I think tanks are just fine and people is just picking on numbers, the only thing I see lacking is the PLD aggro/enmity and I do think it should get a buff, even since I started playing. Still got a lot to see about DRKs since they're still kinda new but I don't think PLD is so bad outside of the enmity, it has less dps and higher mitigation like it always did and is still picked as the standard MT. Don't get so caught on numbers and just enjoy your class, unless it's completely broken and unplayable; hardcore players gonna love their numbers and nitpick on taking this or that tank based on this or that minimal benefit but if you're so hardcore just go and change class instead of crying bout it, you can have all of them in a single character and each one of them is obviously best at something. -
08-20-2015, 12:13 PMWizhardYes, you go tell that to Living Liquid and his friend, Living Limb when they perform the Hand of Pain on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyndel
Although i must admit it was the case in the raids before the expansion.