NIN -- how does everyone else feel we're doing?

Want Nin to have more ST? Lower DWAD and Duality CD to 60 sec and add maybe 20 potency on Armor Crush from the Flank. mainly the 1st suggestion tho. No idea why Duality is 90 sec when it can't even crit....

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Want Nin to have more ST? Lower DWAD and Duality CD to 60 sec and add maybe 20 potency on Armor Crush from the Flank. mainly the 1st suggestion tho. No idea why Duality is 90 sec when it can't even crit....

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You can also make Armor Crush combo off of Shadow Fang and not Gust Slash.

Only thing nin needs is better TP usage. And I'm glad more people are saying duality and dream are too long CDs for what they do I really really feel like they need to be 60 second max. But I think DRGS are just too ahead of the other 2 Melee. True monk parses higher than nin on dummy but trick attack is good for how the fights are atm. Monk only needs tornado kick to have a higher potency and the dmg needs to be instant huge delay on that skill.
Elixir field still makes me chuckle when I think about it that skill is op so much better than dream within a dream it's not even funny.

NiN is fantastic. But because of mudra lag (60ms) it frustrates me and costs dps. So, I'm switching mains.

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Originally Posted by Darkthrone

mudra lag (60ms)

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Wow thats cute meanwhile some EU ninjas think they've got a pretty decent ping with 115ms. o_o

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Originally Posted by Darkthrone

NiN is fantastic. But because of mudra lag (60ms) it frustrates me and costs dps. So, I'm switching mains.

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You should be fine at 60ms, I am generally around 70 and rarely have an issue.

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Originally Posted by Layke

You can also make Armor Crush combo off of Shadow Fang and not Gust Slash.

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Wow, that would be an awesome change.

whoa i havent played mnk since 2.0 but i remember their aoe options were absolute trash (rockbreaker+pb or howling fist)

is elixir field like super good and spammable or something?

Elixir field is 220 potency ogcd on a 30 second cooldown.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

Elixir field is 220 potency ogcd on a 30 second cooldown.

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This and the fact they can get tp back from Purification

Ninja's personal DPS is the lowest single target dps of the mele (not much, by like ~40 dps in perfect scenario), and it has the lowest AOE potential. But between Trick Attack and Goad, it's a great party member and has been common in the current set of world firsts. I'd say it's doing very well.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Wow, that would be an awesome change.

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Check this against the actual rotation times and see if you still think it's awesome (esp. in a group w/o a WAR). Swapping out a single ability does not mess with our DE window. Adding onto a previously 2-step combo a move that you will use for 2 out of 3 Shadowfangs will mess with that window almost every rotation.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

whoa i havent played mnk since 2.0 but i remember their aoe options were absolute trash (rockbreaker+pb or howling fist)

is elixir field like super good and spammable or something?

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Elixir Field is the pretty much the best oGCD AoE in the game if you look at modified potency (up to 220*1.41, 310, per 30 seconds), and up their with a Gierskogul if you look at modified potency per minute (230, 3 times per minute).

NIN's current position: basically fine, save for being a TP hog.

What I'd like to see: Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush costs reduced to 50 TP, another shot taken at mudra lag, and, if successful, Fuma Shuriken changed to slashing damage to maintain relevance against longer term focus targets.

An easy fix is to let our poison affect magic skills again. This would increase our st and aoe damage output using Ration and Katon.

I am hoping they could prolong the duration of Dancing Edge... Its a pain when you have a PLD and a DRK as your tanks... Maybe make AE potency w/o the positional bonus a bit higher.. Its a pain that if you miss, its a 80 potency difference.. even MNKs have 40 potency difference only.. Are we gonna spam Dancing Edge all day long if we cant get into the correct position?

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Originally Posted by HolyXtremeZ

even MNKs have 40 potency difference only

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If you don't include the modifiers from Twin Snakes, GL, FoF, and DK into it.

Basically, 100 potency with just 3GL, FoF, and TS added on is another 42% higher (142 potency) while the 140 potency upgrade ends up at about 199 potency. That's a difference of 57 potency.

Also, DK is a 50 potency difference base and Bootshine is a (potential) ~75 potency difference base. Potential because BS's positional is a guaranteed crit so it's taking the crit damage modifier as the difference in potency, however, you won't necessarily not crit without it.

However, they also have a positional on literally every hit of their normal GCD rotation. NIN are less likely to have mechanics force them to miss a positional because their positionals are spaced out more. You aren't guaranteed to need to be in a position when that AOE circle appears under your feet. Monks are.

Honestly, if you're going to complain about missed positionals being a pain, Monk is not the class you want to compare to.

As for Dancing Edge, at least you have another potential class that can apply the debuff. Monk has to apply their own, and DK is a DPS loss compared to BS. They just have to do it because nobody else will.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

As for Dancing Edge, at least you have another potential class that can apply the debuff. Monk has to apply their own, and DK is a DPS loss compared to BS. They just have to do it because nobody else will.

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But Monk just flows and is really straight forward everything just comes right.
Ninja on the other hand feels like you're driving drunk while navigating with a map which you hold upside down. >_>
There is just way more room for error.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Ninja on the other hand feels like you're driving drunk while navigating with a map which you hold upside down. >_>

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That's certainly your opinion on the class, which is valid for you but not as a fact.

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There is just way more room for error.

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Boss turns suddenly to shoot at a party member.
Almost 100% chance Monk will be on an ability in their combo that requires a position (fair enough, they could be just about to use Touch of Death).
NIN has 7 GCD abilities, 2 have positionals. Those two are also at the end of a 3 hit combo. Essentially there are 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 1 attacks in a combo (DE combo, AE combo, AC combo, SF combo, Mutilate). Even assuming each of these combos is used once in a rotation (not in practice, but for math's sake), you have 12 attacks in your combo. With 2 positionals. That means you have a 10/12 chance to not have to give a dang whether the boss faces you, the tank, the healer, or that DRG who just jumped and can't get out of the AOE.

Also consider AOE markers requiring you to move.

Also consider if a Monk is soloing or picking up an add that is targeting them. That's a 100% chance to not be hitting positionals on any of their attacks.

We get to much skills, and i would love some change, like:

- Armor Crush merged with Dancing Edge.
- cancel the movement speed reduced on stealth (for solo pve purpose)
- get off the 20% dmg from Kiss of and put it into a Job Trait. (tired of thoses sync when it's disapear...).

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

We get to much skills, and i would love some change, like:

- Armor Crush merged with Dancing Edge.
- cancel the movement speed reduced on stealth (for solo pve purpose)
- get off the 20% dmg from Kiss of and put it into a Job Trait. (tired of thoses sync when it's disapear...).

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Woah, hold your britches there guy, they're running away from you. These changes would be ridiculous lol. All these changes would be way too good.

My main issues apart from the ominpresent mudra lag are:
- reduce the TP cost on our main abilities to alleviate the TP problem
- increase death blossom potency - I just feel like dead weight in any AoE situation
- increase duration of dancing edge - without a warrior in party, I just seem stuck spamming this too much and not getting to my damage rotation.

Not expecting much change to nin, but the above might be a way to fix some of the issues. Mudras could be fixed by maybe having three of the mudras be 1-button pushes and then combos of 2-button pushes for the rest. I play with 130-140 ping, so mudras can be a real problem sometimes.

I agree, increase dancing edge time so we can actually use aeolian edge, without a warrior you will constantly be spamming DE while other classes are using there full dps combos,,,why should we have to be stuck applying a debuff, it should be combined into a skill or the duration is doubled.

pretty much every A3S clear has used a ninja, that says a lot about their current place in endgame. hint: they're more desirable than mnks

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

I agree, increase dancing edge time so we can actually use aeolian edge, without a warrior you will constantly be spamming DE while other classes are using there full dps combos,,,why should we have to be stuck applying a debuff, it should be combined into a skill or the duration is doubled.

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Speaking from a drg and nin perspective, they both are applying their debuff. DRG has to apply it regardless, since they are the only ones who can and it's a part of their chaos thrust combo, while nin can skip it with the addition of a war in the party. Mnk has to apply their own debuff too unless they have another mnk, if someone else could apply it (like drk should be able to), mnks would skip their debuff for higher dps as well. To me, just basing an argument off that seems pretty weak.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Speaking from a drg and nin perspective, they both are applying their debuff. DRG has to apply it regardless, since they are the only ones who can and it's a part of their chaos thrust combo, while nin can skip it with the addition of a war in the party. Mnk has to apply their own debuff too unless they have another mnk, if someone else could apply it (like drk should be able to), mnks would skip their debuff for higher dps as well. To me, just basing an argument off that seems pretty weak.

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I wouldn't mind having to apply it if it was actually tied to another combo but all 3 combo finisher are tied to Gust Slash and that really sucks. :/
Why didn't they let us Armor Crush after Shadow Fang instead? That would be way smoother.
So we could extend Huton after applying shadow fang and go the Dancing Edge route after that, instead of being in a situation where shadow fang is about to go off but so are Huton and Dancing edge.
It just feels clunky as hell. :/

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I wouldn't mind having to apply it if it was actually tied to another combo but all 3 combo finisher are tied to Gust Slash and that really sucks. :/
Why didn't they let us Armor Crush after Shadow Fang instead? That would be way smoother.

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Not to mention it was shown https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?t=2m56s that it indeed combo off Shadow Fang... wonder what was there reason for change.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

other classes are using there full dps combos

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A monk will never be using their full DPS combos unless they're with another monk in the party for some reason (who then has to be the one applying DK, for a DPS loss on them).

Dragon Kick is the worse DPS option over Bootshine because Bootshine is 150 potency with guaranteed crit positional while DK is 100 potency with 150 potency positional and chance to crit.

At least you have another class that can apply your debuff.

The more people complain about having to apply their own debuff without a warrior or about how tough it is to have to hit two predictable positionals every what, 20 seconds, the less it looks like they really need to be buffed to compare to other melee, because they just look spoiled.

You are the only melee that has another class that can apply your debuff for you. You are the only melee with rare AND predictable positionals. Not only predictable, but controllable, too. You're on Gust Slash and about to do AE but the boss puts AOE down on his butt? You get to move to the side and hit AC and at least hit your positional. Monks don't. Dragoons don't.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

A monk will never be using their full DPS combos unless they're with another monk in the party for some reason (who then has to be the one applying DK, for a DPS loss on them).

Dragon Kick is the worse DPS option over Bootshine because Bootshine is 150 potency with guaranteed crit positional while DK is 100 potency with 150 potency positional and chance to crit.

At least you have another class that can apply your debuff.

The more people complain about having to apply their own debuff without a warrior or about how tough it is to have to hit two predictable positionals every what, 20 seconds, the less it looks like they really need to be buffed to compare to other melee, because they just look spoiled.

You are the only melee that has another class that can apply your debuff for you. You are the only melee with rare AND predictable positionals. Not only predictable, but controllable, too. You're on Gust Slash and about to do AE but the boss puts AOE down on his butt? You get to move to the side and hit AC and at least hit your positional. Monks don't. Dragoons don't.

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Yet we have the most punishing positional of them all Trick Attack which isn't only a screw up for your own rotation but a complete screw up for the whole raid and needs to be changed.

Just to give prospective on the whole matter only major thing i can see needing changed right now is Trick attack and TP issues for the 100th time i've had to reply to things in these threads
But Atreides does have a point Monk is a lot more fluid in its normal rotation then ninja. Ninjutsu is like hitting a road stop to weigh in as a truck at least every 60s if you don't have bad spikes before you can continue on.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Yet we have the most punishing positional of them all Trick Attack

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Every 60 seconds. And you can delay it for up to 10 seconds after Suiton if sudden AOE happens.

Guess you've never heard of the phrase shit happens I've had tanks who've had to dodge at the most inopportune times so why should ninja be punished when no other melee is punished for missing positionals anymore except for a loss of potency. So can we have some kind of fail mechanic for Battle Litany?

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Yet we have the most punishing positional of them all Trick Attack which isn't only a screw up for your own rotation but a complete screw up for the whole raid needs to be changed.

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The personal potency lost is understandable.
The Vulnerability Up shouldn't be tied to the positional though.
I've forgiven it up to now because it's only once a minute, but in the end you're right.

Effect being tied to positionals is the old drg design, which wasn't good.
You shouldn't lose that raid CD for a missed positional.

That and TP are probably what NIN needs most.
Well not counting Mudra lag, which everyone agrees is an issue. Just not sure if that'll be fixed soon.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Guess you've never heard of the phrase shit happens. So can we have some kind of fail mechanic for Battle Litany?

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Funnily enough, i am hearing a lot of frustration from BLMs/SMNs when they happen to step out of BL's max range and miss the buff. I always chuckle a bit inside, lolmage

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

So can we have some kind of fail mechanic for Battle Litany?

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When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

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Assassinate locks you for longer than Jumps now, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

The personal potency lost is understandable.
The Vulnerability Up shouldn't be tied to the positional though.
I've forgiven it up to now because it's only once a minute, but in the end you're right.

Effect being tied to positionals is the old drg design, which was good.
You shouldn't lose that raid CD for a missed positional.

That and TP are probably what NIN needs most.
Well not counting Mudra lag, which everyone agrees is an issue. Just not sure if that'll be fixed soon.

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Couldn't agree more, people can compare 9/12 abilities for NIN don't require positionals to MNK all but ToD requiring positionals, but DRG or MNK don't have abilities that just don't work if you miss the positional that affects the entire raid's dps.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Dragon Kick VS. Dancing Edge

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Really? You can hardly compare a skill that you use of the START of a combo with a skill you have to dedicate a whole combo.
I main Monk and this statement is really not working, if Dragon Kick happens to Crit you lose nothing both skills have a 150 potency, it's just like Bootshine but Dancing Edge on the other hand is a DPS loss compared to Aeolians Edge no matter what.

I don't even care about positionals because positionals are piss easy.
Doesn't change the fact that Ninjas do have the one positional that gets punished the most if missed.

The funny part is positionals are the only thing going for monk which appearently makes us hard to play and people are adamant in defendig it.
If you can't hit a positional go out of you way and use Fracture or Touch of Death while moving to where you need to be.
Other jobs don't have that option because Monk work with "stances", they just suck up a straight DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by sackm

pretty much every A3S clear has used a ninja, that says a lot about their current place in endgame. hint: they're more desirable than mnks

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Dragon Kick was the core of MNK utility. It made them pretty important before.
The traited Mantra was a plus and they had the highest dps too.

Now melee dps is pretty similar, with DRG seeming a bit ahead in real fight scenarios and bringing Litany as well.
Then NIN is the least affects by fight mechanics overall with its almost non-existent ramp up, in addition to bringing Trick Attack.

With DRK now bringing Delirium, MNK really lacks utility.
If you have a DRK, I would always pick up a NIN over a MNK except for maybe A1S (but that's a really niche scenario).
Trick Attack more than makes up the any lower base dps NIN may have.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

So we could extend Huton after applying shadow fang and go the Dancing Edge route after that, instead of being in a situation where shadow fang is about to go off but so are Huton and Dancing edge.
It just feels clunky as hell. :/

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That should never happen if you keep Huton with a reasonable duration.
There is no dps loss if you extend anywhere below 40s left on the Huton buff.

The rest is just Dancing Edge and Shadowfang. That's not much worse than before since Armor Crush only replaces Aeolian Edge some of the time.
That's pretty much part of the core of NIN gameplay though.
The combos don't do things for you automatically. You manage and monitor timers.
You follow a priority rather than a rotation.

It doesn't need combos to do all the work (such as refreshing both Shadowfang and Huton every 18s), the branching combos is a part of the gameplay and sets it apart.

What I do think it could use is a increased duration on Dancing Edge so Aeolian Edge gets more use.
Every minute you have to Dancing Edge 3 times, Armor Crush twice and Aeolian Edge once.

If Dancing Edge was extended, you could do 2 of each every minute which would be better.
Otherwise, I don't think it's clunky. I like MNK, it feels like a roller coaster ride but you've got to keep up the momentum.

NIN is more like driving on manual. Well, it's not super complex, but you've got to think a few combos ahead to optimize your timers.
Upside is that it's super flexible in any given fight once you know how to work it.
While maybe more punishing on player skill (probably debatable), it's certainly less punishing on fight mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Assassinate locks you for longer than Jumps now, just saying.

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And is only used once every 40 seconds at under 20% health as opposed to every 30 seconds for the entire fight.

Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Really? You can hardly compare a skill that you use of the START of a combo with a skill you have to dedicate a whole combo.

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Sorry, that doesn't make a difference. Step 1 and 2 of the DE combo will be the same whether it's DE, AE, or AC being used. Remember, you're not dedicating the whole combo to DE. You're dedicating the last hit to DE. If you did two AE combos instead of one DE and one AE, the difference isn't the entire combo. The difference is the damage between DE and AE, and that's only 60 potency assuming positional's hit.

Step 2 and 3 of the combo will also be the same regardless of whether it's DK or BS being used.

Position in the combo is irrelevant.

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if Dragon Kick happens to Crit you lose nothing both skills have a 150 potency

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BS is 150 potency period, auto-crit from behind (for argument's sake with crit increase assumed at 50%), that's 225 potency guaranteed in position. So you're either hitting at 150 potency or 225 potency.
DK is 100 potency not in position, 150 in position, 150 crit not in position, 225 crit in position.

At best, DK matches BS. If mechanics force you to move to the back of the boss, DK crit is hitting for a non-crit BS, while non-crit is just a flat loss. If mechanics force you to the side, BS is hitting for DK period.

BS is clearly the better DPS option if DK's debuff wasn't needed.

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Doesn't change the fact that Ninjas do have the one positional that gets punished the most if missed.

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Every minute.

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Other jobs don't have that option because Monk work with "stances", they just suck up a straight DPS loss.

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The math is arguable on how many ticks you'd have to have hit on ToD/Fracture to make clipping them for 80 TP not be a DPS loss.

Edit: Actually no, let me fix this. The math isn't very arguable. ToD has 20 potency initial, 25 per tick. At 3 seconds per tick, it would take about 5 ticks (15 seconds) to equal the potency of, for example, DK or Snakes, with positional. So your ToD would need to last 15 seconds in order to be equal in damage to two attacks. It would need another 1-2 ticks (3 to 6 more seconds) to hit Snap and True. It would take 8 ticks (24 seconds) to match a positional Bootshine (assuming 50% increase in damage on crit). Demolish is 70 + 7 ticks of 40, so 350 potency. ToD won't match that even if it runs its course.

If you have not allowed ToD to last at least 15 seconds, then it would be a DPS loss to refresh it partways through just because you're moving positions, because you used 80 TP earlier to do an attack effectively weaker than another GCD you could have used earlier. And you're using another 80 TP now, leading to faster TP issues.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

When Ninjutsu locks you in position for as long as Jump, sure.

Actually, that's a great solution to Ninjutsus. Make them all have cast times.

Then you get to feel what it's like to have to time it like Jump AND it fixes mudra lag!

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Apparently its ok for ninja to have trick attack fuck up and not apply the raid utility but everyone else np ninjas go fuck yourselves eh. No other melee has any fail mechanic you lose massive dps anymore every since they fixed Dragoons problems back in realm reborn why should we still have it as ninja

2nd of all you can't compare Jump and trick attack since you know trick attack is one of our raid utilities at least with jump it doesn't fail if the tank decides to twitch reaction.

obviously I should just stay out of these stupid threads since no one can think objectively.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

2nd of all you can't compare Jump and trick attack

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I didn't. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu. I didn't mention Trick Attack in the post that I brought up Jump.

A Jump fail can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG until they're revived and then the DPS loss from revive weakness. Or, depending on the fight, can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG for the rest of the fight.

And they have to use it every 30 seconds.

But nobody turned "Trick Attack fails" into a stereotype for the class.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I didn't. I compared Jump and Ninjutsu. I didn't mention Trick Attack in the post that I brought up Jump.

A Jump fail can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG until they're revived and then the DPS loss from revive weakness. Or, depending on the fight, can result in a 100% DPS loss from the DRG for the rest of the fight.

And they have to use it every 30 seconds.

But nobody turned "Trick Attack fails" into a stereotype for the class.

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NO one with intelligence could give a crap over the LOL DRAGOON stupidity. GO back and look at what you quoted You quoted what you wanted and brought in jump comparisons When i did no such thing I was comparing 2 raid utilities Trick attack and Battle litany.
Obviously you fail to understand That when people who are asking for QoL buffs aren't asking for dps increases.

I have no issue with trick attack honestly. It's rare that I miss the buff honestly and it is frustrating but I like it as it is.

The real handicap with ninja is the mudra lag. It prevents the class form being played as intended and can significantly drop dps if it is substantial enough. The mudras need to be client side but I honestly don't think the developers care enough about the issue to fix it which is kind of sad because ninja is my favorite class.